waxy1926

So I recently purchased a wheel/tire package and after multiple balances, I'm still getting vibration in the steering wheel at speeds greater than 60mph. I have 19x8.5 wheels with +30 offset. Tires are Conti's ExtremeContact DWS06 235/35ZR19.

The tire shop is very reputable, so I feel comfortable they did a good job balancing the tires. They did notice one of the tires is out of round, so I replaced it (thus the 2nd balance was done). Got on the highway today to head into work and the vibration is definitely better than what it used to be, however the steering wheel still shakes. I also noticed my coffee cup was shaking a lot as well (leading me to believe it could be an issue with both front and rear tires?).

On my purchase order the company included hub centric rings, and although I haven't checked if these were installed the tire company believes they were already on the wheels.

I honestly don't know where to go at this point, is it something I'm just going to have to live with?

Interested to hear some thoughts from others.

FYI - Wheels are Mach ME11 (http://www.caliwheels.com/2-crave-ma...ls-w-26095.htm)

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

1) Once you start feeling/looking for the shakes, it never goes away. Sucks!
2) Don't give up...I chased camber kits and compliance bushings...no change
3) I thought the rims must be bent...had at LEAST 5 balances...high speed, road force...


Finally went to Acura dealership when I realized it was costing me as much to get a good balance at rinky dink tires plus anyway...

and guess what...balanced perfectly (although now that I think it through, I wonder if I put on a different set of tires also)...
key is that the place might be reputable
but then the tech has to give a shit
and then if the tech gives a shit...
the machine needs to be calibrated often!

You'll figure it out!

waxy1926

Thanks Rockstar, so are you recommending taking my car into the dealership for a more thorough analysis? I was wondering if the tire/wheel combo might be the issue, so I'm curious if you recall putting on a different set of tires

Also interested to hear more thoughts from others on this topic!

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

I just chased all these things...
and in the end, it's true...vibration at high speed is balance.

I lived with it for a long time and I hated it...the more I think about it, I did change tires.
but before you do that...call around and find a place that does high end cars...and ask how often they calibrate their machine.

Axle vibration too...but that's more of a wobble that comes and goes around 3-4K rpm.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

^check to see if hub centric rings are on the wheels, if not...it could be simple fix as just putting them on

also, swap back to stock set to see if vibration follows

but rockstar is right, you will have to chase.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

good thinking...check
although with the conical or acorn style lug nuts...they are basically self centering as long as you torque them down with no load/weight on the rim.

waxy1926

I did swap back to my stock tires & wheels and found no vibration at high speeds, so that ruled out any other issue that might not be related to the wheels/tires.

When you say calibrating their machine, are you referring to a Hunter RFB machine or just their static/dynamic balancer (whatever they use that's not road force balance).

Hopefully I don't have to change out my brand new tires!! Although I'm sure warranty would cover returning and replacing for a better tire for the wheels.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

so, it's definitely your new set of wheels or tires.
right, any of their machines could be out of whack.

try a new shop/garage for balancing!

waxy1926

Will do! There's an Acura dealership local to me, I think I'll take my car in soon and have them do a more thorough inspection. I'll be sure to ask about calibration. In the meantime I'll pop the wheels off and see if the hub rings are there just for the hell of it.

Rockstar I commend you for dealing with the vibrations for so long, after 1 trip into the office I'm already annoyed and want to rip the wheels off!

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

LOL...thanks man, I was very annoyed...I thought I was going crazy "look babe, look at my fkng thumb, it's vibrating, right??!" STOPPPP it's fine!

Well, I guess if you're feeling it up front...a good thing you could also do is swap front and rear...see if any change so you narrow it down to which one.

That's just my experience...but ever since I go to the dealership and have a friend that does them that I trust...my vibration woes are done and he's told me he's really adamant about making sure the machine is working perfectly becuase with false positive "perfect" balances come unhappy return customers and duplicated work. That was good enough for me...

I am not certain what machine they use, but I bet it's road force.

waxy1926

Hey at least your girl said to ignore it...I just texted my wife saying "you need to pick me up at the dealership on Friday since I'm still getting the vibrate" and all she said was "great, more money spent towards your damn car!" LOL

The local dealership by me is great, all my service is done there and I've never had any issues. I just want to make sure their machine is calibrated so thanks for the heads up on that.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

You're welcome!
Good luck...
so, first order of business are...check for hub rings,
while at it, swap front wheels to the rear...
check proper PSI inflation...at least that way you can narrow it down.

waxy1926

Thanks, will do!

If in fact there's an issue with one of the front tires, what would be the change in "feel" when that tire goes to the back. Would it move from the steering wheel to the pedal? Or would I still feel it in the steering wheel and also somewhere else.

Also, I noted above that my coffee in the cup holder would shake like crazy along with the steering wheel (not sure if that means both a front and back tire issue).

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

^I couldnt "Feel" that my rear tire was flat. it drove normally.

so, yes..it could very well be the front tire(s)

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

on FWD, you just feel the vibration really badly up front...if ride goes smoother to the back, focus on that set of wheels.
I mean, if you really wanted to be a maniac, you could throw ALL your factory wheels except the passenger front one...
and then put one on at a time to get down to the exact ONE that's causing the problem.

waxy1926

Got it, thanks guys. I'm not a maniac just yet but I'll let you know if I get to that point LOL

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

LOL...it was a year for me, so the time came and I was nuts. I would have done anything.

BreezyTL

iTrader: (8)

Dealing with steering wheel shakes SUCKS!!!!!!!!!! My winter set of wheels I got for a steal, made the steering wheel shake ALOT! Got some new summer wheels and Conti DW's. GONE! So smooth now! With that being said, my winter set up will get rebalanced this summer.


-I'd check for hub centric rings
-Get them re-balanced at a dealership. usually they have their machines in check, then again probably not since it is more money for them!


best of luck and let us know what the culprit is when you figure it out!

VisualEchos

iTrader: (1)

If you're missing the hub-centric rings, I would never visit that tire shop again. Though small, those rings are super important, and you can lose your life learning that. Don't drive the car again without checking for them on all 4 wheels.

waxy1926

I checked last night, hub centric rings are on all 4 tires. At this point I'm thinking one of two things; bad balance, or the wheel/tire combo.

VisualEchos

iTrader: (1)

So you checked the torque on all 20 lugs, don't have spacers, and the hub-centric rings are installed. I'd take it to a different shop to have each wheel/tire combo checked for balance.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

lol...and we've come full circle.
It's a bad balance...
I also disagree about the hubcentric rings. I think they are intended to make it foolproof to torque down evenly. I ran without them on the front of the S2000 (because it was a 70.1mm hub) and had zero issues with vibration or the conical lugs not centering the wheel when tightening them down.

I did use my feet to take the wheel weight off while putting on the first lug to help it along with centering where it needed to be, then torqued down with it off the ground too.

VisualEchos

iTrader: (1)

I think you need to be more careful about what you say, as your opinion is highly respected on this forum.

The fact is that it is UNSAFE to have the wheel unseated from the hub by ANY amount, even 1mm. The reason is simple; the hub is designed to take ALL the rotational force of the spinning wheel/tire, and ANY gap can cause that force can be transferred to the studs, which are ONLY designed to hold the wheel to the hub, and have very little strength on their Y axis.

I understand the fact that you never had a problem, but it's still an unsafe practice.

sockr1

iTrader: (5)

i agree you never, ever want to run wheels without hub spacers for the exact reasons why VE mentioned...you move the loading to a different component that is MUCH weaker, change the type of loading, and to components not designed for those forces. just because it didn't result in anything doesn't mean it's safe.

no one should ever use wheels without hub centric rings

ok now back to OP's issues...i would take it to a different shop!

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

So you both think that the vehicle weight along with your rotational forces are being supported by a plastic hub centric ring meant to center a wheel (my understanding of their purpose) that is to be torqued down rather than the 5 grade 10.9 studs and lug nuts holding the wheel to the hub?



That's a serious question...
I always preface my experience and opinion with just that...MY experience and opinion. I'm open to learn new things but I think you are wrong.

I don't need to be right, I just want to be sure that whatever information being shared IS correct. I'm open to learning new things!

VisualEchos

iTrader: (1)

First, it's not plastic, it's polycarbonate. Second, it does center the wheel, but mostly serves as a reducer to the hub, which is ONLY there to take the rotational force.

Your studs are useless, regardless of their grade, when it comes to a wheel/tire combo that's probably in excess of 35 lbs rotating at 70 mph. Trust me on this one, studs are NOT designed for these forces, they are only there to torque the lugs down, no Y-axis force is supposed to be put on them at all.

sockr1

iTrader: (5)

i still believe it's very unsafe.

it relates back to moment arms and strength of each component. think about it this way...say you have to hold a tire with your arm fully extended and you have two options

1. hold all 4 of your fingers out and put them through the stud holes of the rim and hold the tire as you move your arm up and down.

or

2. make a fist and put it through the center of the wheel and move your arm up and down.

to take it a step further think of the cross sectional area of each component. the cross sectional area of 5 studs is not nearly the same as the cross sectional area of the ring/hub (which all acts as one mass due to the tight fitting hub centric ring).

i believe one of the purposes of the ring is to close the gap and allow the hub to take all the forces rather than those tiny studs. the rings do center the wheel but centering also means that the point of loading has changed as well

regardless of if they help or not, i think it's best to be wrong on the conservative side and recommend people to use hubcentric rings

VisualEchos

iTrader: (1)

Exactly this.

With the wheel center fitted snugly to the hub center, the rotational y-axis momentum can be evenly distributed and take monumental forces (re: 30-50 lb wheel @ 150 mph+). However, if there is a gap, the load is transferred to a component that is meant for x-axis strength only (the studs).

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

Makes sense, I've just never heard that that is the purpose it serves.
Duly noted kids, make sure you have your hub centric rings!

Thanks for taking the time to explain.
J.

waxy1926

Great discussion here, and good to know hub centric rings are so critical to maintain safety on the road! I'm taking my car into my local Acura dealership tomorrow morning, I'll post an update once I have one! Thanks again all for your comments/recommendations.

thoiboi

My friend just had this same issue on her Camry. Complained about high shudder at freeway speeds. Took her car for a drive and sure enough... Figure it might be alignment, balance, or rings. (Her brother bought shitty aftermarket wheels for some reason). She said Costco installed the tires about 2K miles ago and balanced them..

Went to do alignment, no go

Got rings installed, no go (but glad it was done nevertheless)


Told her to take it back to Costco and make sure they do balance properly. SUCCESS!!


Good advice from everyone and the moral is: 1.all aftermarket wheels with a different center bore than our car needs hub centric rings. 2. Check your balance!!! 3. Check it again

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

only because it mildly irked me to be called out on sharing incorrect information with the forum, I dug a little deeper than just someone else's opinion and it seems there are many valid arguments on both sides of the fence but so far, I have not found anything concrete where it is stated that the intended purpose is what VE is claiming.

Hey, for $10 a set...use them, just in case there's any validity. But to come in and say I'm being dangerous because of my research and experiences with it...is a little off base. Especially since it's unsubstantiated...

There seem to be a few that chime in saying yes you must use them, but the majority of the responses on this other forum thread seem like pretty knowledgeable people ALSO chime in saying that is not their intended purpose either (which has always been my understanding).

Like I said, I don't need to be right...I just don't want to be told I'm wrong, and then I go on repeating something that isn't substantiated as fact, either.

Do you need hubcentric rings on aftermarket wheels? - Page 2 - Scion FR-S Forum | Subaru BRZ Forum | Toyota 86 GT 86 Forum | AS1 Forum - FT86CLUB



Shit, in addition...FROM DISCOUNT TIRE DIRECT...who does their research with tires etc...they plainly state

What purpose do hub centric rings serve?

A hub centric ring’s sole purpose is to help align and center the wheel and tire assembly on the vehicle’s hub pilot. Once the wheel assembly is torqued, the hub centric ring’s job is complete. Hub rings help reduce and can eliminate wheel and tire vibrations caused during installation. Hub rings do not carry any load.


Shiet,
I'll take my apology any time now. I normally don't spout off on questionable shit that might put other's in danger. That did annoy me...

VisualEchos

iTrader: (1)

My name is Andrew. I am 45. I have worked for BBS. Take my thoughts on centering rings, or leave them, I stand by my information....which wasn't imparted from the Interwebz.

Oh Sickest TL

iTrader: (3)

id like to phone a friend..... sir issac newton lol

thoiboi

J,

In this case I'm going to have to agree with Andrew and Sokr. It makes sense to have hub centric rings.
Your wheel is a rotating mass, it's the logic behind balancing with wheel weights. Think of it like your top loading laundry machine, when the weight isn't properly distributed, you get a grumble and it sounds like your machine is about to explode. So then you stop the machine, distribute the load properly, and start it again. It's very likely that you may not need rings if you torque your wheels down and just so happen to put them just properly concentric to the bearing and you'll have no issues. But it's one of those 'better safe than sorry' things.

sockr1

iTrader: (5)

i won't list my educational and professional background vs the people that work at discount tire or talk on forums (even though some are way smarter than me), but i'll always use hub centric rings

it's a good back and forth discussion but we're not going to convince either side to change, so let's get back to OP's issues

VisualEchos

iTrader: (1)

Re-reading what I wrote about working for BBS, I didn't mean to say that I'm an expert, or scholar on the subject, far from it, I was just stating that's where I got my information. I have seen/heard of issues with cars not having hub-centering rings, but never first hand. However, I have never seen these issues with cars using hub-centering rings, as they simply don't exist.

I suppose you could take a chance to save a few bucks, probably better to get them and switch to Geico instead tho'.

BreezyTL

iTrader: (8)

For as cheap as they are, why not run them? So many valid points from both sides have been stated. It just makes sense to use them as they reduce the "Y" directional forces to the lugs by taking up space so the wheel does not shift while driving or uneven road surfaces. You will be able to get away with 1 nut not torqued to spec, which I wouldn't do, but this will eliminate that from happening. Make sure all 5 are torques properly.


End of story, hub centric rings or stay with stock wheels...

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

Well, I stayed at a Holiday Inn express.

I'm not saying y'all are wrong...I'm saying y'all are wrong for saying that me having a different experience/knowledge thus far is dangerous for me to share.

can't be the simplest, cheapest, most critical component of a safe vehicle and then made to be the world's best kept secret, right?

I'm not saying I don't run them...I just couldn't, for a short time on the S2000. Maybe now, I won't take the risk and I'll run them always.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

and to get BOT...
let's be clear, OP is chasing vibration. and for the most part...the advice to check for hub centric rings on lug centric wheels is as outdated as not using armorall on your dash due to the silicates that were in it in the 1980's.