'08 TL-S coilovers and chassis bracing ?'s
04-18-2011, 01:04 AM
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Cruisin'
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'08 TL-S coilovers and chassis bracing ?'s
in the near future i will be upgrading my suspension on my 08 tl type s and would like to upgrade to something more aggressive and track ready for autocross/road track events. just wondering what people were running for coilovers, and what spring rates to go with to maximize the cars potential. another question i have is what about chassis bracing..(strut bars, lower tie bars, etc) i have seen the ones on heeltoeauto.com and just wondering which ones are the best bang for your buck.
04-18-2011, 09:16 AM
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IHC has added A-Spec coil-overs with an H&R Front sway bar (kind of a PITA to remove and replace). Not sure what RSB he's running.
Check HeelToeAuto for chassis bracing options - I think there were a couple of items coming out.
Check HeelToeAuto for chassis bracing options - I think there were a couple of items coming out.
04-19-2011, 01:40 AM
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Cruisin'
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not trying to bash you or i hate cars but lower the cars ride height which in turn lowers your center of gravity in turn letting the car handle better. it also looks sick when you have your car dropped on the oem type s wheels or aftermarket like rpf1's
i will check this out. thanks
for sure man i will scope it out. and i have been all over heeltoeauto. theres alot of options when it comes to underside chassi bracing i just want to get one thats the best bang per buck ya know. im feeling either the front lower bars or the rear 4 point bar or both just dont know which one to do first.
Last edited by Steven Bell; 04-20-2011 at 09:01 PM. Reason: Merged Posts.
04-20-2011, 02:44 AM
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Cruisin'
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well its already a drop dead gorgeous car so performance. where would i find these threads you talk of? im fairly new to this forum and haven't fully explored it all.
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04-20-2011, 07:43 AM
#9
Any of you guys want to back up your opinions with any sort of facts or even theories? I've got a good bit of track time on a-spec and it's very good on the track on street tires.
Do you know what to do with the adjustments on the adjustable suspension? Any idea the cons of lowering the car or going too firm on the damping? Any idea the relation between damping on each end and handling traits? Any idea what understeer and oversteer are and the overall balance of the a-spec vs most aftermarket coilovers? Did you know the TL comes factory with "coilovers"? You're not changing geometry and lever arm with "coilovers" on the TL as you would with other cars.
My guess is no to all of the above. "Performance" is based on which suspension is the most harsh and goes the lowest instead of which one actually delivers the best performance. Just slam the car to the ground and crank up the shock firmness and you have a race car lol.
Are you aware that one of our members took 1st place in points for the year in SCCA solo 1 with just a-spec and a 22mm rsb? Sure, there's a little body roll but body roll on a car that goes into negative camber is not the end of the world.
At least try and back the statements up with something rather than just saying a-spec sucks.
Do you know what to do with the adjustments on the adjustable suspension? Any idea the cons of lowering the car or going too firm on the damping? Any idea the relation between damping on each end and handling traits? Any idea what understeer and oversteer are and the overall balance of the a-spec vs most aftermarket coilovers? Did you know the TL comes factory with "coilovers"? You're not changing geometry and lever arm with "coilovers" on the TL as you would with other cars.
My guess is no to all of the above. "Performance" is based on which suspension is the most harsh and goes the lowest instead of which one actually delivers the best performance. Just slam the car to the ground and crank up the shock firmness and you have a race car lol.
Are you aware that one of our members took 1st place in points for the year in SCCA solo 1 with just a-spec and a 22mm rsb? Sure, there's a little body roll but body roll on a car that goes into negative camber is not the end of the world.
At least try and back the statements up with something rather than just saying a-spec sucks.
I don't want to come across harsh, most of that wasn't aimed at you. I understand that a-spec is not for people wanting to slam the car or associate good handling with a firm ride.
My main point was handling balance is more important than less body roll. Acura did a good job in the tuning because just like a larger rsb, the a-spec gets rid of a lot of the understeer where many aftermarket spring rates actually increase understeer. During normal driving you won't know this until you push the car to it's limit. A-spec only feels a little firmer than stock but it's what's beneath the surface that really makes it handle.
What you shoot for is equal traction between the front and rear end. You can stiffen the ride up a lot but if the balance shifts so that the rear tires have much more traction than the front, the front tires break free prematurely, limiting the cornering speed. Again, the only way to know this is to take it to the limit. That was one thing I didn't like about the stock suspension. It felt ok for stock but when you pushed it past 7/10s driving it went from feeling ok to the front tires just giving up and trying to push a straight line instead of turning. I was a bit worried when I first installed the a-spec because it wasn't that much stiffer but as I started taking the car up to 7/10ths and beyond, it just kept wanting more.
A-spec is not stiff enough to take full advantage of sticky tires. It's not stiff enough for a dedicated track setup. But I think it offers a great compromise for the person that daily drives the car and takes it to the track occasionally. It was almost funny to see the TL that won in SCCA. It was on slicks and the bodyrolll was so bad it looked like it was going to flip, but it handled well.
My main point was handling balance is more important than less body roll. Acura did a good job in the tuning because just like a larger rsb, the a-spec gets rid of a lot of the understeer where many aftermarket spring rates actually increase understeer. During normal driving you won't know this until you push the car to it's limit. A-spec only feels a little firmer than stock but it's what's beneath the surface that really makes it handle.
What you shoot for is equal traction between the front and rear end. You can stiffen the ride up a lot but if the balance shifts so that the rear tires have much more traction than the front, the front tires break free prematurely, limiting the cornering speed. Again, the only way to know this is to take it to the limit. That was one thing I didn't like about the stock suspension. It felt ok for stock but when you pushed it past 7/10s driving it went from feeling ok to the front tires just giving up and trying to push a straight line instead of turning. I was a bit worried when I first installed the a-spec because it wasn't that much stiffer but as I started taking the car up to 7/10ths and beyond, it just kept wanting more.
A-spec is not stiff enough to take full advantage of sticky tires. It's not stiff enough for a dedicated track setup. But I think it offers a great compromise for the person that daily drives the car and takes it to the track occasionally. It was almost funny to see the TL that won in SCCA. It was on slicks and the bodyrolll was so bad it looked like it was going to flip, but it handled well.
04-20-2011, 07:52 AM
#10
Talking about the H&R 28mm front sway bar.
I'm running it. Awesome quality and bushings. Really helped the handling since mine was already prone to oversteer with the a-spec suspension and 24mm rear bar.
It's stiffer than the numbers would indicate, might be the type of metal used.
I had to install stiffer rear springs to balance it back out, it had too much understeer at first even with the Progress bar in stiff.
H&R makes a front and rear kit that should be balanced already. I highly suggest it.
Otherwise you're best off getting the Type-S bar along with the Progress rear bar.
The H&R bar is no doubt stiffer than the Type S but if you want balanced handling you have to play around with it a little (unless you buy the set).
There is practically no body roll. The H&R front make much more of a difference in roll than the Progress rear did.
Keep in mind that too stiff has it's disadvantages and a little bodyroll on the TL is not the end of the world since it goes into negative camber.
It's stiffer than the numbers would indicate, might be the type of metal used.
I had to install stiffer rear springs to balance it back out, it had too much understeer at first even with the Progress bar in stiff.
H&R makes a front and rear kit that should be balanced already. I highly suggest it.
Otherwise you're best off getting the Type-S bar along with the Progress rear bar.
The H&R bar is no doubt stiffer than the Type S but if you want balanced handling you have to play around with it a little (unless you buy the set).
There is practically no body roll. The H&R front make much more of a difference in roll than the Progress rear did.
Keep in mind that too stiff has it's disadvantages and a little bodyroll on the TL is not the end of the world since it goes into negative camber.
Now that I have a little more time.... Everyone is partially right.
The big factor everyone is leaving out is the coil spring rate.
The swaybar is a torsional spring connecting the left and right suspension together. The more the body leans the more the bar resists the lean by pulling up on the inside tire. Not a good thing if you have soft stock springs with lots of travel. The proper way to set up a car is to run stiff springs and fine tune the balance with the swaybars. Many exotic cars use swaybars no stiffer than the TL's stock bars.
A simple fact, using the swaybars to reduce bodyroll is a compromise. It lets you reduce roll without hurting the ride quality too much in comparison to springs. The negative is you lose the independence of the independent suspension as the left and right are now linked together by a spring.
The stiffer the coil springs, the more swaybar you can get away with without as pronounced negative effects. You already have less travel and the springs are taking some of the load away from the bars. With the outside springs taking some of the load off of the swaybar around a corner, it's not trying as hard to lift the inside tire.
I chose to go slightly stiffer on the springs and quite a bit stiffer on the swaybars since my car is a daily driver and it works very well. However, there's no doubt stiffer springs (stiffer than the common aftermarket offerings for the TL) and TL-S size swaybars would've been a better answer for a track car.
For those that say adding a front bar cancels out the rear, not true. The car will still corner flatter and take a set quicker. The balance will change drastically. Mine oversteered a bit at the limit with the a-spec springs, Koni Yellows on the low setting in the front, and the Progress bar on soft. With the addition of the H&R bar I ended up going from a little tail happy back to the stock-like push.....but there was practically no bodyroll. I first put the rear bar in the firm position which helped. If I had to guess it had less understeer than stock but still too much for me. I ended up stiffening up the rear springs a little at a time with spacers until I came up with a rate that brought back the balance. I now have a custom set of rear springs so I don't have to run the spacers.
For those of you doubting the effectiveness of larger front and rear swaybars combined, the high speed handling is amazing. Low speed is improved but freeway on ramps taken at 90mph will amaze you. The car never felt quite as stable as I wanted even with a-spec, Konis, and the Progress rear bar. With the big front bar plus custom rear springs, it's rock steady at 130mph (on a track of course). I've actually pushed the limits hard at those speeds and it's as solid as a stock TL at 50mph.
If I had it to do over again, likely I would've gone with a Type-S front and Progress rear. That should provide a huge increase over the tiny 25mm hollow 5at bar and have good balance right out of the box. I don't regret what I did but it was a lot of work and a lot of testing at the limit. Lots of trial and error on the spring rates.
And to clarify when I'm talking balance and too much understeer with the Progress rear and H&R front, it still handles better than stock and you would never know the car would understeer if you didn't take it to the absolute limit. It has a completely different and better feel especially at high speeds. It's just the TL-S bar is dirt cheap and would probably give better balance out of the box.
The big factor everyone is leaving out is the coil spring rate.
The swaybar is a torsional spring connecting the left and right suspension together. The more the body leans the more the bar resists the lean by pulling up on the inside tire. Not a good thing if you have soft stock springs with lots of travel. The proper way to set up a car is to run stiff springs and fine tune the balance with the swaybars. Many exotic cars use swaybars no stiffer than the TL's stock bars.
A simple fact, using the swaybars to reduce bodyroll is a compromise. It lets you reduce roll without hurting the ride quality too much in comparison to springs. The negative is you lose the independence of the independent suspension as the left and right are now linked together by a spring.
The stiffer the coil springs, the more swaybar you can get away with without as pronounced negative effects. You already have less travel and the springs are taking some of the load away from the bars. With the outside springs taking some of the load off of the swaybar around a corner, it's not trying as hard to lift the inside tire.
I chose to go slightly stiffer on the springs and quite a bit stiffer on the swaybars since my car is a daily driver and it works very well. However, there's no doubt stiffer springs (stiffer than the common aftermarket offerings for the TL) and TL-S size swaybars would've been a better answer for a track car.
For those that say adding a front bar cancels out the rear, not true. The car will still corner flatter and take a set quicker. The balance will change drastically. Mine oversteered a bit at the limit with the a-spec springs, Koni Yellows on the low setting in the front, and the Progress bar on soft. With the addition of the H&R bar I ended up going from a little tail happy back to the stock-like push.....but there was practically no bodyroll. I first put the rear bar in the firm position which helped. If I had to guess it had less understeer than stock but still too much for me. I ended up stiffening up the rear springs a little at a time with spacers until I came up with a rate that brought back the balance. I now have a custom set of rear springs so I don't have to run the spacers.
For those of you doubting the effectiveness of larger front and rear swaybars combined, the high speed handling is amazing. Low speed is improved but freeway on ramps taken at 90mph will amaze you. The car never felt quite as stable as I wanted even with a-spec, Konis, and the Progress rear bar. With the big front bar plus custom rear springs, it's rock steady at 130mph (on a track of course). I've actually pushed the limits hard at those speeds and it's as solid as a stock TL at 50mph.
If I had it to do over again, likely I would've gone with a Type-S front and Progress rear. That should provide a huge increase over the tiny 25mm hollow 5at bar and have good balance right out of the box. I don't regret what I did but it was a lot of work and a lot of testing at the limit. Lots of trial and error on the spring rates.
And to clarify when I'm talking balance and too much understeer with the Progress rear and H&R front, it still handles better than stock and you would never know the car would understeer if you didn't take it to the absolute limit. It has a completely different and better feel especially at high speeds. It's just the TL-S bar is dirt cheap and would probably give better balance out of the box.
That's what I would do. I'm sure you can get some gains from going with the H&R 28mm but with the amount of work involved in the front I would just stick with the stock one since the TL-S already has the thickest FSB of any TL.
It's worth it for the 5at to upgrade but the TL-S bar is pretty good already. The rear bar will give some nice gains without being tail happy in conjunction with the TL-S front bar.
It's worth it for the 5at to upgrade but the TL-S bar is pretty good already. The rear bar will give some nice gains without being tail happy in conjunction with the TL-S front bar.
Lol. It's all about balance. The car has too much front swaybar in stock form, that's why we do the rear first. Only problem is the common rear bar is a little too stiff for the base 5at FSB and if you plan on pushing the limits it will get a little tailhappy.
If you stiffen the front you must stiffen the rear even more. If you stiffen just the rear a little you're fine. If you have a Type S you can throw the Progress bar on there and have a great combo.
If you stiffen the front you must stiffen the rear even more. If you stiffen just the rear a little you're fine. If you have a Type S you can throw the Progress bar on there and have a great combo.
04-20-2011, 08:08 AM
#11
Talking about Progress 24MM RSB
will find more.
I've done tons and tons of testing on this.
If you have an auto with the 25mm hollow FSB, use the soft position or you will actually be slower in the turns due to the slightly tail happy nature.
If you have a manual with the 27.2mm hollow front bar, use either the soft or firm setting.
If you have the Type-S with the 27mm solid, use the firm setting.
If you have an auto with the 25mm hollow FSB, use the soft position or you will actually be slower in the turns due to the slightly tail happy nature.
If you have a manual with the 27.2mm hollow front bar, use either the soft or firm setting.
If you have the Type-S with the 27mm solid, use the firm setting.
You have to look at the big picture. You're going to be slower with it on the firmer setting and the stock AT front bar. I've tried it, I've timed the car over and over again with every imaginable combo. Firmer by itself is not better, it has to be balanced. If you run a Type-S front or aftermarket front, by all means put the rear in firm.
I have to do the short answer because I'm at work but jacking it up with the bar off won't hurt a thing.
I did mine with one rear tire removed.
The car has to be completely on the ground with both tires evenly or completely off. Since the swaybar is a torsional spring, if one side is higher or lower than the other you're not going to be able to install it. It resists that twist and with one side higher than the other you're going to be fighting the bar to install it.
I'll get into more detail when I get home.
I did mine with one rear tire removed.
The car has to be completely on the ground with both tires evenly or completely off. Since the swaybar is a torsional spring, if one side is higher or lower than the other you're not going to be able to install it. It resists that twist and with one side higher than the other you're going to be fighting the bar to install it.
I'll get into more detail when I get home.
I did have to drop the subframe but did not know that ahead of time. I ended doing it on my back on the side of the street with a single floorjack, not fun. I started at 6PM and finished cleaning up at midnight. Couldn't stop because the car had to get me to work in 4 hours. The complete lack of light didn't help things.
Don't forget, an alignment is a must afterwards.
As for it being a worthwhile upgrade from a manual 27mm hollow, I would say yes from a price standpoint. From a labor standpoint, if you have a lift and take your time without getting pissed, it's worth it. I figure I could do it again in 1.5 hours if I had a lift and daylight.
I calculated it once but going from the hollow bar to the solid bar added something like 60% or more to the stiffness. It really makes the car much, much more stable at high speeds.
However, to properly control the large 28mm H&R bar that I have, I needed to crank the Konis nearly one extra turn toward stiff. Without it the car got fairly choppy. With the shocks set right, the ride barely suffers.
I doubt this would be needed with the Type-S bar but you never know.
Don't forget, an alignment is a must afterwards.
As for it being a worthwhile upgrade from a manual 27mm hollow, I would say yes from a price standpoint. From a labor standpoint, if you have a lift and take your time without getting pissed, it's worth it. I figure I could do it again in 1.5 hours if I had a lift and daylight.
I calculated it once but going from the hollow bar to the solid bar added something like 60% or more to the stiffness. It really makes the car much, much more stable at high speeds.
However, to properly control the large 28mm H&R bar that I have, I needed to crank the Konis nearly one extra turn toward stiff. Without it the car got fairly choppy. With the shocks set right, the ride barely suffers.
I doubt this would be needed with the Type-S bar but you never know.
LOL. I know the feeling. Tail happy is more fun. It took the first 6 months of owning the TL to remember giving it throttle won't make the rear slide out. The first couple times with a friend in the car they thought I was retarded. I would be exiting a corner and get on the throttle hard to kick the rear out a little but instead it just understeered nearly to the curb.
Endlinks are no big deal, they're cheap and you can replace with the tougher Moog links. As for stress, I can't find the numbers but this bar on the stiff setting is something like 400% stiffer than the OEM auto trans bar. Hard cornering doesn't put as much stress as entering gutters or driveways at an angle, or hitting a pothole with just one side of the car.
Shocks usually have an influence as you mentioned. You may have the rebound just a little too stiff. As I increased the spring stiffness and swaybar stiffness the rebound felt softer and softer. I had to keep dialing up the Konis to get the same level of damping. Right now I'm at 2/3 on the front and 1/2 rear. It's very streetable. At the track I may add another 1/4 turn on both ends. Sometimes it feels like the Konis go from too firm or too soft to just right in less than 1/4 turn.
Just keep adjusting and you will get it. There's no way with your suspension setup that it's too stiff just because of springs and swaybars. If you show up to Acurafest and are still having problems, you can drive mine and see if you like it better or worse.
Just keep adjusting and you will get it. There's no way with your suspension setup that it's too stiff just because of springs and swaybars. If you show up to Acurafest and are still having problems, you can drive mine and see if you like it better or worse.
installed a progress rsb today. installation was simple with the car jacked the car up on stands. the trick to getting it in and out is to jam it back past the exhaust piping before rotating and snaking it out.
tools needed:
12mm & 13mm socket
14mm open-end wrench
5mm hex
WD-40/Liquidwrench
(the included bolt heads for the bushing brackets are 13mm vs 12mm stock.)
ran the car in a parking lot after installation. on the soft setting i couldnt get the car to swap ends at low speeds turns, but its definitely closer to neutral now. the rear will gladly squeal now, and the car still pushes at and past the limit. im guessing higher speed cornering could show some oversteer. ride quality changed minimally.
i wont say the effect was as dramatic as the eibachs and koni yellows but definitely worth it. vast improvement when combined. i'll probably change it to the firm setting and not be such a chicken-shit. i'm hoping i can get under it w/o jacking again.
big thanks to I Hate Cars for sharing all the knowledge.
tools needed:
12mm & 13mm socket
14mm open-end wrench
5mm hex
WD-40/Liquidwrench
(the included bolt heads for the bushing brackets are 13mm vs 12mm stock.)
ran the car in a parking lot after installation. on the soft setting i couldnt get the car to swap ends at low speeds turns, but its definitely closer to neutral now. the rear will gladly squeal now, and the car still pushes at and past the limit. im guessing higher speed cornering could show some oversteer. ride quality changed minimally.
i wont say the effect was as dramatic as the eibachs and koni yellows but definitely worth it. vast improvement when combined. i'll probably change it to the firm setting and not be such a chicken-shit. i'm hoping i can get under it w/o jacking again.
big thanks to I Hate Cars for sharing all the knowledge.
Glad its working out for you.
Just keep in mind its going to oversteer more and more as speeds go higher. Even mine will understeer a little at first at steadystate parking lot speeds. You may want to try entering a 60mph corner aggressively.
But on the flip side most of the aftermarket spring bring it toward understeer more than stock springs. The 6mt will bring a little more understeer with its larger front bar and a tl-s will have the highest tendency toward understeer. So if you have any of these the firm setting may be best for you.
Just keep in mind its going to oversteer more and more as speeds go higher. Even mine will understeer a little at first at steadystate parking lot speeds. You may want to try entering a 60mph corner aggressively.
But on the flip side most of the aftermarket spring bring it toward understeer more than stock springs. The 6mt will bring a little more understeer with its larger front bar and a tl-s will have the highest tendency toward understeer. So if you have any of these the firm setting may be best for you.
It's possible. Most of the time the firmer the rear swaybar, the "lighter" the front end will feel. The car will feel like it responds much quicker to your inputs. The front can feel unstable but if you were to push the limits you would find that it's the rear that actually is unstable.
If you have any other issues going on up front, the stiffer RSB can sometimes make them more noticable. Does it go away once the tires are warm?
If you have any other issues going on up front, the stiffer RSB can sometimes make them more noticable. Does it go away once the tires are warm?
Last edited by justnspace; 04-20-2011 at 08:13 AM.
04-20-2011, 08:16 AM
#12
All '04-'06 ATs had the same swaybars, even an original a-spec.
Autos got a 25mm hollow bar. 17mm rear.
Manuals got a 27mm hollow bar. 19 or 20mm rear.
TL-S got a 27mm solid bar. 20mm rear.
I have the H&R solid 28mm bar, stiffer than it's size would indicate likely due to the material used. It's in the soft setting and I could not imagine how stiff it would be in the firm setting. It's already too much bar for the Progress rear in the firm setting.
Autos got a 25mm hollow bar. 17mm rear.
Manuals got a 27mm hollow bar. 19 or 20mm rear.
TL-S got a 27mm solid bar. 20mm rear.
I have the H&R solid 28mm bar, stiffer than it's size would indicate likely due to the material used. It's in the soft setting and I could not imagine how stiff it would be in the firm setting. It's already too much bar for the Progress rear in the firm setting.
It's for handling balance.
Stiffer rear bar gives it more oversteer (rear end sliding)
Stiffer front bar gives it more understeer (front sliding, car going in a straight line while the wheels are turned)
Just a super stiff rear bar will make it tail happy and too much front bar will make it no fun to drive as the front tires will break traction way too soon in a corner.
What we need is a balance. The TL already understeers from the factory, that's why we start with the rear swaybar to bring it close to neutral. If you want to do more you can do the front swaybar too but you want to increase the stiffness of the rear at the same time to keep the same balance.
Personally on mine, the 28mm H&R front bar was so stiff, I had to firm up the rear springs in addition to putting the Progress bar in firm.
Stiffer rear bar gives it more oversteer (rear end sliding)
Stiffer front bar gives it more understeer (front sliding, car going in a straight line while the wheels are turned)
Just a super stiff rear bar will make it tail happy and too much front bar will make it no fun to drive as the front tires will break traction way too soon in a corner.
What we need is a balance. The TL already understeers from the factory, that's why we start with the rear swaybar to bring it close to neutral. If you want to do more you can do the front swaybar too but you want to increase the stiffness of the rear at the same time to keep the same balance.
Personally on mine, the 28mm H&R front bar was so stiff, I had to firm up the rear springs in addition to putting the Progress bar in firm.
Next will be shocks. I hate cars shock of choice is the Koni Yellows.
04-22-2011, 02:47 AM
#14
Moderator
iTrader: (7)
wrong. its not "the lower the car is, the better it handles" in a theoretical world with basic suspension setup that may be true but with modern suspension design, lowering it past a certain extent will hurt handling performance. I dont believe that I can sum what i want to say in 1 post so if you really want to understand why, send me a PM, but for now, lets leave it at that, lowering your car isnt always better for handling. lowering the center of gravity only helps to an extent for sprung weight(body of the car). it is easy to see that once the sprung weight becomes lower than the unsprung weight(suspension components), it is detrimental to handling.
Last edited by paperboy42190; 04-22-2011 at 02:52 AM.
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