allwhit3g

iTrader: (2)

So first off, I attempted to search but only came up with the 3rd gear pop out issue. That being said see details below..

2006 TL Base 6mt NAV 78,xxx miles. Just purchased March 31st..

I can shift up and down with out the clutch. Now I can do this at any rpm, I specifically tried 1500, 3500, and 5000 rpm. With down shifting its a little bit pickier. This works 2 - 6 gear. Clutch doesn't seem worn, and there are no pops, grinds, or smells.

I'm extremely confused and worried. I am not new to driving stick either..

Thanks in advance.....

O yeah, hell of a first post. The names Rob... Hi

colindunn

So what's happening? Does it shift fine if driven normally?

allwhit3g

iTrader: (2)

Yes it shifts fine, but I know that I shouldn't be able to shift with out clutching nor do I want to be driving and hit a bump/hit the lever and it pop out of gear.

colindunn

Could be a sign of a worn out clutch. I mean theres "rev-matching" but I find it strange it works for you at a varied RPM.

ez12a

it's possible to shift without the clutch, though really not recommended. Look it up on youtube. When you try the clutchless shifting are you doing it under power or not? If you're shifting while under power (giving it gas) then that's a different story.

as long as your clutch isnt slipping, then i wouldnt worry too much about it.

allwhit3g

iTrader: (2)

Yeah no rev matching or double clutching, whatever you want to call it. I cant imagine me just getting lucky multiple times and the syncro's lining up perfectly, this is why I'm so confused.

I just want to check with the community before going to the local stealership and pay out the ass

allwhit3g

iTrader: (2)

I can do it at WOT, high power, low and mid. Its really mind boggling.

Project_CLean

iTrader: (2)

how did you even come across this problem?

I would never even attempt to take my car out of gear without fully depressing the clutch.

allwhit3g

iTrader: (2)

popped out of fourth while driving and without even thinking, since my foot was still on the gas, I put it in fifth. In a mild panic/what ever reason my hand pushed the lever before I put my foot down. and I said "what the fuuh"

so I kept "playing" around while continuing my drive home.

Jackass

Not normal for sure. The only time I have managed to bump mine out of gear was when coming to a stop and am distracted and don't get the clutch pushed in before pulling it out of gear. It doesn't go out smoothly either like you are describing. I have never tried to put it in gear without the clutch.

allwhit3g

iTrader: (2)

yeah its weird because its really easy to pull out and put in. I can't seem to find anything about this

Project_CLean

iTrader: (2)

Well,
my guess is your clutch is going..or will be gone soon. Sounds like a pressure plate/release bearing issue.. Does the clutch slip in any gear under moderate/hard acceleration?

Note: there is no way a car should be able to be shifted thru gears without clutch pedal depression. Synchros were invented to further ease the engagement of the gears,even with use of the clutch.

allwhit3g

iTrader: (2)

No slipping whatsoever, believe me I'm just as confused. I am going to take it to the dealership I bought it from hoping that they wont give me any lip. I just wanted to see if this had ever happened to anyone.

Project_CLean

iTrader: (2)

Good luck.
Report back with their findings.

allwhit3g

iTrader: (2)

will do.



Still any other information, personal experiences, expert opinions is appreciated.

Ha and when all this is done ill have a progress thread to follow shortly there after.

Jackass

If you properly rev match, you "should" be able to shift without the clutch. I would ever recommend doing it...but I do know it is possible on some transmissions. Back in my college days, the only time we had to use the clutch on my roommate's '89 Z24 was from a dead stop. Once rolling, you just had to rev match and you could cleanly shift up or down through all gears.

allwhit3g

iTrader: (2)

Went to the stealership last night, Have to wait until Monday to get her in there. Any one else have any ideas?

allwhit3g

iTrader: (2)

dropped her off this morning, will hopefully get some answers tonight

allwhit3g

iTrader: (2)

So apparently this is normal and there is nothing to worry about.... wtf

Vlad_Type_S

iTrader: (3)

Taking it out of gear with no clutch: There are three stress states that the transmission gears can be in at a given moment while engaged. 1) Input shaft gear pushing output shaft gear. 2) Output shaft gear pushing input shaft gear. 3) No pushing (no stress on either gear... they're spinning at the same speed just chillin). You should not be able to pop it out of gear in conditions 1 and 2. It's possible, but you really have to push hard and it's definitely not good for the synchros. In condition 3, it's really easy to place the shifter back into neutral because there is no stress on either gear to hold them in place. It's like, imagine two pieces of metal being pressed together. It will be hard to slide them perpendicular to the force pressing them together. But when that force is gone, you can slide them no problem. Conclusion: It is possible to put the shifter back in neutral without the clutch in condition 3 and no damage will occur. But you shouldn't because the rotation speeds can change instantly and cause you to grind the gears.

Putting it in gear without a clutch: As mentioned above, it's possible to do what's called a rev match to shift without using the clutch. Rev match refers to matching the input and output shafts' rotational speed; the input shaft speed is equal to engine RPMs and the output shaft speed is wheel rotation speed multiplied (or divided by, not sure) the gear ratio selected. When these two shafts are rotating at the same speed, the gear shift lever can engage with no problem. This is the principle behind the clutchless shift.

The entire purpose of the clutch is to allow gear selection while the two shafts are rotating at a different speed. Double clutching is a different kind of rev matching technique. I'm not familiar with the history of synchos, but I believe that double clutching used to be required on older cars. Now, most cars have synchros, which allow you to engage a gear regardless of the difference in rotational speed as long as the clutch is open.

Conclusion: It is possible to shift without using the clutch, but you shouldn't do it because it wears out the synchros much faster. Replacing them requires tearing apart the trans. You especially shouldn't do it considering the TL's little synchro issue.

ez12a

it's doable, but what was weird is that you could do it easily with the gas pressed down (w/o lift off). I'd think the gears would be under torque and meshed together that it wouldnt be easy. Though i've never tried clutchless shifting nor do i intend to.

allwhit3g

iTrader: (2)

well when I called the owner of he dealership, he wasn't too happy so I'm bringing her back in on Thursday for another diagnostic.

I also believe there may be some members that work at this dealer ship. I see some dope TL's in the parking lo whenever I'm there