Transmission question?
#1
Transmission question?
I have a 2004 TL AT with 76,000 miles on it. I bought it used with 69,000 miles in good shape in March of last year. Drove it for about 6 months and ran into an issue where I needed to have the APP sensor replaced. At the same time, I had a drain and fill done with Honda ATF at 75,000 miles. I do not believe the transmission fluid had ever been changed prior to this point.
I am now noticing some unusual changes while driving. The transmission is definitely not slipping, but it is shifting hard into 2nd and 3rd gear at lower RPMs (i.e. in traffic). It seems to shift fine above 3000 RPMs. I also am detecting a faint whirring sound. There are no CEL or codes present. I checked the transmission fluid and it at the right level, it appeared mostly brown with a touch of pink.
How can I tell if something is actually wrong? Do I need to replace the 3rd and 4th gear sensors? Do I need to do the 3 x 3 flush? Could this possibly be a motor mount issue? And should I use the new Honda ATF since I thought I read they stopped selling the Z1?
Feedback would be appreciated. Thank you!
I am now noticing some unusual changes while driving. The transmission is definitely not slipping, but it is shifting hard into 2nd and 3rd gear at lower RPMs (i.e. in traffic). It seems to shift fine above 3000 RPMs. I also am detecting a faint whirring sound. There are no CEL or codes present. I checked the transmission fluid and it at the right level, it appeared mostly brown with a touch of pink.
How can I tell if something is actually wrong? Do I need to replace the 3rd and 4th gear sensors? Do I need to do the 3 x 3 flush? Could this possibly be a motor mount issue? And should I use the new Honda ATF since I thought I read they stopped selling the Z1?
Feedback would be appreciated. Thank you!
#2
I would swap your pressure switches with some new ones. I was having the same issue with harsh shifts. Switched mine out last weekend with help from a friend, and it made a good difference. Still not PERFECT, so I'm ordering some Redline Type F soon for a 3x3...
I would go ahead and do the switches. If that doesn't help, do a 3x3. (Redline or the new Honda fluid)
I got my switches for 80$ shipped, if that helps. Good luck!
I would go ahead and do the switches. If that doesn't help, do a 3x3. (Redline or the new Honda fluid)
I got my switches for 80$ shipped, if that helps. Good luck!
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#4
Try acuraoemparts.com or PM AckTl05. He's one of our vendors. (I did the latter)
Just let him know your address and tl year model. If you go to acuraoemparts.com, you'll need the parts numbers...lemme see if I can find them. They're on the DIY pressure switch thread...
I think some guys may have found it even cheaper than that, but 80 is the average, it seems.
Just let him know your address and tl year model. If you go to acuraoemparts.com, you'll need the parts numbers...lemme see if I can find them. They're on the DIY pressure switch thread...
I think some guys may have found it even cheaper than that, but 80 is the average, it seems.
#5
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I would swap your pressure switches with some new ones. I was having the same issue with harsh shifts. Switched mine out last weekend with help from a friend, and it made a good difference. Still not PERFECT, so I'm ordering some Redline Type F soon for a 3x3...
I would go ahead and do the switches. If that doesn't help, do a 3x3. (Redline or the new Honda fluid)
I got my switches for 80$ shipped, if that helps. Good luck!
I would go ahead and do the switches. If that doesn't help, do a 3x3. (Redline or the new Honda fluid)
I got my switches for 80$ shipped, if that helps. Good luck!
OP,
1> switch the 3rd and 4th gear pressure switches as suggested by j-rogsuperstar
2> do a tranny flush (i prefer a 4x3 compared to 3x3) with Redline Fluid....
Read this thread for more on the fluid and how much of Type F you should use....
https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-2004-2008-93/optimal-percentage-racing-atf-834299/
Cliffs:
For anyone that is beginning to use Racing ATF for the first time
Refill #1 = 2 qt Racing ATF + 1 qt Lightweight ATF
Refill #2 = 2 qt Lightweight ATF + 1 qt Racing ATF
Refill #3 = 1 qt D4 + 1 qt Racing ATF + 1 qt Lightweight ATF
Subsequent refill: 1 quart D4 + 1 quart Racing ATF + 1 quart Lightweight ATF
#6
My bad, swoosh...OP, he's right. Check out that thread by Innacurate. Sad part is...I read that very thread. I was planning on doing that myself.
Good catch on my slip, man.
Good catch on my slip, man.
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#7
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^^^ Not a problem bro....happens
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#9
Team Owner
Type F is still fine. I've done a total of 9 drain and refills on it and at 105k it shifts better than new. However, the switches should be done at the same time within reason. I probably have the most number of miles on this fluid at 35k and the previous 50k was on a D4 equivalent, not Honda fluid. A less FM fluid can't make a trans slip while a heavily friction modified fluid can stop slippage. I believe Inaccurate stated what he was experiencing was not slippage. In a transmission with an inherent design flaw where it drags 3rd gear on the 4-2 downshift, type F can cause additional wear on that clutch pack. The best combo would be to avoid an automatic 4-2 kickdown and running type F along with new switches. If you don't want type F, use any Dex III equivalent.
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^^^ yeah i have done 4 refills with Type F...10K miles....no problems ![Thumbs Up](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
but since some members have encountered flaring, i didnt want to suggest the same to the OP....
![Thumbs Up](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
but since some members have encountered flaring, i didnt want to suggest the same to the OP....
#11
Team Owner
Going a little off topic but I think that defect can be resolved with a software update.
#12
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^^^ yeah i went thro that issue when you guys were discussing....i felt as if Acura designed everything well and as they were leaving for home, put the tranny together and a damn fluid which kinda complements it....
well...after i read the issues i figured out why my car does this (i drive in SS mode 100% of the time)....
am on 4th and arriving at a light....which is about turn....i brake as am about the enter the turn, tap the gear 2 times (expecting 2nd gear), car does not like to shift into 2nd, there is NO slipping, no surging, no flaring....and am in 3rd, i take the turn.....after a split second, if i tap the gear head again the car shifts to 2nd.....
i used to curse the car when this happened but now and happy LOL....i will NEVER EVER do a very quick 4th to 2nd shift LOL....5th to 2nd is great, but not 4th to 2nd
well...after i read the issues i figured out why my car does this (i drive in SS mode 100% of the time)....
am on 4th and arriving at a light....which is about turn....i brake as am about the enter the turn, tap the gear 2 times (expecting 2nd gear), car does not like to shift into 2nd, there is NO slipping, no surging, no flaring....and am in 3rd, i take the turn.....after a split second, if i tap the gear head again the car shifts to 2nd.....
i used to curse the car when this happened but now and happy LOL....i will NEVER EVER do a very quick 4th to 2nd shift LOL....5th to 2nd is great, but not 4th to 2nd
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^^^ yeah i use it even when i got on a 300mile drive LOL....
#15
Advanced
Transmission Sound
So I'm going to do a pressure switch replacement and will let you know how it goes.
I also notice that when I shift into drive, there's about a 2 second delay before the transmission fully engages.
Crossing fingers that the pressure switch replacement will do the trick.
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^^^ no it wont....
This is what the pressure switches do:
When you reach say 30mph, your tranny should switch to 4th from 3rd....but since the pressure switch is old, it lags a little bit going into 4th....its basically a switch which switches at some pressure.....
as the names suggest they just affect switches going from 3rd and 4th gear....
about tranny taking a split second to engage, that is normal....
I suggest switching to redline fluid....you can find the optimal % of redline fluid and viscosity in this thread (read 2-3 pages, since it has updated fluid %'s)....
Hope this helps....
This is what the pressure switches do:
When you reach say 30mph, your tranny should switch to 4th from 3rd....but since the pressure switch is old, it lags a little bit going into 4th....its basically a switch which switches at some pressure.....
as the names suggest they just affect switches going from 3rd and 4th gear....
about tranny taking a split second to engage, that is normal....
I suggest switching to redline fluid....you can find the optimal % of redline fluid and viscosity in this thread (read 2-3 pages, since it has updated fluid %'s)....
Hope this helps....
#17
Team Owner
Replacing the switches can help the lag going into drive. When you shift from park or neutral to drive, the trans hits 3rd gear first and then downshifts to first gear. It does this to make the engagement from neutral to forward more gentle without jerking the car. When the switches get out of calibration, it can stay in 3rd gear a little too long before going back down to first gear.
Your issues may or may not be caused from the switches but they have helped others with this issue and they helped my car. I'm getting ready to replace mine for a second time.
Your issues may or may not be caused from the switches but they have helped others with this issue and they helped my car. I'm getting ready to replace mine for a second time.
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^^^ I was always under the impression that it hits 2nd....
Another thing learned....
I will be switching the switches for a second time in the next 10K miles
Another thing learned....
I will be switching the switches for a second time in the next 10K miles
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#19
Advanced
Thanks guys!!
Swoosh - I had read in one of the DIY threads (about the pressure switch replacement) about the AT hitting third as it engages into drive/1st, so that was my thinking there. As my TL has aged, that delay of going into drive has become more pronounced, so I'm thinking the switch replacement could help with this.
I'm going to try and do this tomorrow, and will post how it goes.
Thanks to you and everyone here in the community for their help!
Swoosh - I had read in one of the DIY threads (about the pressure switch replacement) about the AT hitting third as it engages into drive/1st, so that was my thinking there. As my TL has aged, that delay of going into drive has become more pronounced, so I'm thinking the switch replacement could help with this.
I'm going to try and do this tomorrow, and will post how it goes.
Thanks to you and everyone here in the community for their help!
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^^^ yes in this case, it does sound like it....
btw how many miles are you at ? am at 160K
btw how many miles are you at ? am at 160K
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#22
Team Owner
#23
Advanced
IHC, swoosh and others.....
I'm getting ready to order the switches, and am getting confused regarding the correct part #.
I have a 2006, Navi, 5AT.
In the A-110 DIY guide for replacing the switches (here: https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-2004-2008-93/110-diy-guide-replacing-3rd-4th-gear-pressure-switch-3g-tl-2004-2006-a-729149/)
it says the materials needed are:
Materials needed:
x1 3rd Gear Pressure Switch (28600-P7Z-003)
x1 4th Gear Pressure Switch (28600-P7W-003)
x2 sealing gasket (90471-PW7-A00)
BUT......
acuraoemparts.com says that for my model, I need:
28600-RAY-003 and
28610-RAY-003
....and then there's a good amount of discussion on this topic...
What are your thoughts?
I'm getting ready to order the switches, and am getting confused regarding the correct part #.
I have a 2006, Navi, 5AT.
In the A-110 DIY guide for replacing the switches (here: https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-2004-2008-93/110-diy-guide-replacing-3rd-4th-gear-pressure-switch-3g-tl-2004-2006-a-729149/)
it says the materials needed are:
Materials needed:
x1 3rd Gear Pressure Switch (28600-P7Z-003)
x1 4th Gear Pressure Switch (28600-P7W-003)
x2 sealing gasket (90471-PW7-A00)
BUT......
acuraoemparts.com says that for my model, I need:
28600-RAY-003 and
28610-RAY-003
....and then there's a good amount of discussion on this topic...
What are your thoughts?
#24
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Both are the same....they switch at the same PSI ![Thumbs Up](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
![Thumbs Up](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
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thassett (01-02-2012)
#25
Advanced
Thanks swoosh! I'm putting my order in today at oemacuraparts, but wanted to ask one last question and I'll leave you alone. :-)
While both switch part numbers are the same PSI and essentially the same build (except for the raised ridge), is one of higher quality or design? I ask because.....
a) My local dealer shows the P7W part numbers in their system as the newer parts, and ones ordered more recently.
b) oemacuraparts has both the RAY and P7W parts in stock, with the P7W's being about $10 more expensive.
c) in the A-110 thread, majofo said "They look the same except for the flush connection.. could be a redesign for several reasons including thermal / reliability, although the actual spec is the same."
Am I being too OCD / Anal over this, and should I just order the RAY part # since that's oemacuraparts shows for my vehicle?
While both switch part numbers are the same PSI and essentially the same build (except for the raised ridge), is one of higher quality or design? I ask because.....
a) My local dealer shows the P7W part numbers in their system as the newer parts, and ones ordered more recently.
b) oemacuraparts has both the RAY and P7W parts in stock, with the P7W's being about $10 more expensive.
c) in the A-110 thread, majofo said "They look the same except for the flush connection.. could be a redesign for several reasons including thermal / reliability, although the actual spec is the same."
Am I being too OCD / Anal over this, and should I just order the RAY part # since that's oemacuraparts shows for my vehicle?
#26
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^^^ ![Nod](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/nod.gif)
just get the RAY part #'s![Big Grin](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
on a side note, if you see the P7Z parts are out there since a while 1998 as compared to RAY's coming out in 2003....I dont think the connectors have changed but MAJOFO is a respected member on this forum and will take his word for it, that they dont fit as flush....
Personally i would have gone with the cheaper one
but i would suggest getting the RAY part number's.....
![Nod](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/nod.gif)
just get the RAY part #'s
![Big Grin](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
on a side note, if you see the P7Z parts are out there since a while 1998 as compared to RAY's coming out in 2003....I dont think the connectors have changed but MAJOFO is a respected member on this forum and will take his word for it, that they dont fit as flush....
Personally i would have gone with the cheaper one
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#27
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(also got new washer gaskets)
Will let everyone know how it goes!
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#28
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^^^ ![Thumbs Up](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
Here is the DIY thread incase you need it....
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=729149
![Thumbs Up](https://acurazine.com/forums/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
Here is the DIY thread incase you need it....
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=729149
#29
Advanced
So I replaced my switches this morning, and everything went pretty well.
HARDEST PART: Unplugging the little plastic connectors to move away the 3rd switch shroud, and unplugging the 4th switch connector. I cut up my hands a few times doing this, and this is a big pain in the ass.
- Shifting into 1st/Drive is smoother and quicker.
- Overall, shifts are smoother. Not a dramatic difference, but noticeable.
- The guys at oemacuraparts.com are very cool. I ordered on Monday, but since everyone was closed for the new year, my order might not have arrived in time for me to do the work. So they upgraded my shipping to FedEx overnight, for free.
- Finally, ThunderDan:
After the pressure switch change, I still have this noise as well! It is present when in 3rd or 4th gear, between about 1,000 and 3,000 RPM, while putting a moderate to heavy load on the transmission. (i.e. - anything more than very light use of the gas pedal)
I'm not sure what it is, but I have brand new switches, and recently did a 3x3 with official Honda ATF. ??? Confused on this one...
I would describe it as this weird "whirring" or "rattling" sound.
HARDEST PART: Unplugging the little plastic connectors to move away the 3rd switch shroud, and unplugging the 4th switch connector. I cut up my hands a few times doing this, and this is a big pain in the ass.
- Shifting into 1st/Drive is smoother and quicker.
- Overall, shifts are smoother. Not a dramatic difference, but noticeable.
- The guys at oemacuraparts.com are very cool. I ordered on Monday, but since everyone was closed for the new year, my order might not have arrived in time for me to do the work. So they upgraded my shipping to FedEx overnight, for free.
- Finally, ThunderDan:
I also am detecting a faint whirring sound.
I'm not sure what it is, but I have brand new switches, and recently did a 3x3 with official Honda ATF. ??? Confused on this one...
I would describe it as this weird "whirring" or "rattling" sound.
Last edited by thassett; 01-07-2012 at 04:09 PM. Reason: Added explanation.
#30
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FROM MY UNDERSTANDING switches only help in switching....if you have a noise when your in a particular gear, switches dont have anything to do with it.....
the switches will reduce lag while shifting....so you will get quicker shifts....
the switches will reduce lag while shifting....so you will get quicker shifts....
#31
Team Owner
Whining noise that varies with engine rpm is likely torque converter.
With road speed is final drive whine.
Torque converter hissing is normal during powerbraking.
A clatter with light throttle is usually torque converter clutch clearance. I used to run a converter with a 6 disk clutch instead of the usual 1 disk and the clatter was pretty bad.
Mine has had a final drive whine since it was brand new. Hasn't gotten any worse in 100k and got slightly better with Redline ATF.
#32
Advanced
Thanks guys.
IHC
"Clatter" is a good way to describe the noise. This is a new noise, which has been present for about the past 8k miles. (I'm at 103k now) Is there any easy way to address this torque converter clutch clearance? Or better to just continue to drive until there's a major issue?
Same here. Got the car brand new with 4 miles on it, and this has always been an issue.
IHC
A clatter with light throttle is usually torque converter clutch clearance. I used to run a converter with a 6 disk clutch instead of the usual 1 disk and the clatter was pretty bad.
Mine has had a final drive whine since it was brand new. Hasn't gotten any worse in 100k and got slightly better with Redline ATF.
#33
Team Owner
A whirring sound along with a clatter is very likely a converter issue. There's nothing you can do other than replace the converter. Check the fluid for metallic particles and clutch material regularly. If they start showing up on the dipstick you may want to shorten the change interval and use a cheaper fluid. You don't want debris plugging the filter and killing the trans.
It could always be other things so I wouldn't worry too much, just pay attention to the fluid and the way it shifts.
It could always be other things so I wouldn't worry too much, just pay attention to the fluid and the way it shifts.
#34
Advanced
IHC, I did some digging, and the noise is 100% the heat shied issue, here:
https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-problems-fixes-114/lets-play-name-tune-%5Bvideos-attached%5D-794713/
This YouTube video is identical to my noise:
Searching now for a thread to adjust/replace the head shield.......
https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-problems-fixes-114/lets-play-name-tune-%5Bvideos-attached%5D-794713/
This YouTube video is identical to my noise:
Searching now for a thread to adjust/replace the head shield.......
#35
Team Owner
That's great news, mine only made the noise at idle, at least what I could tell but all I had to do is bend it slightly with a long extension and it went away.
#36
Advanced
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#37
Race Director
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I don't recall the TSB saying to remove the exhaust system to fix the heat shield whine/rattle.
#38
Advanced
Heat Shield Procedure
Page 2, repair procedure B for a TL. Step 3, "Remove Exhaust Pipe A".
This is for a full heat shield replacement, which is what Acura recommends as the fix. I'd love to do a replacement, as I'm pretty OCD about taking the most complete route, but I'll probably cause more harm than good following these instructions!!
#39
This is for a full heat shield replacement, which is what Acura recommends as the fix. I'd love to do a replacement, as I'm pretty OCD about taking the most complete route, but I'll probably cause more harm than good following these instructions!![/quote]
Have you had a chance to look under the car yet? I have a very similar noise and I got under the car tonight, but the heat shield had zero movement, so i'm at a loss. Wondering what you found.
Have you had a chance to look under the car yet? I have a very similar noise and I got under the car tonight, but the heat shield had zero movement, so i'm at a loss. Wondering what you found.