sharpWheels

Acura TL Gurus,

I took my 2005 TL(70k miles) to the local Acura dealer as the steering wheel has been really hard and at times I have to press the brake pedal all the way to the floor to get the car to stop. The dealer has given me an estimate of almost $3700. The diagnosis and quote breakdown is below - please review and advise if it makes sense to get this/some repairs done from the dealer or to go to a local mechanic :

1. Brakes: Master cylinder ($208) and Modulator ($1600) and Labor charge of $389 ( 3 hours work). Was told there is internal leakage and rubber pieces cause the mechanism to bypass the gromment(seal) - not maintaining pressure.

2. Front engine mount($204) - Was told it is hydraulic and is leaking causing engine to drop down and broker side engine mount($104). Labor is $389 additional ( 3 hours).

3. Power steering - pump is broken and needs to be replaced ($338). Also hose oil ($14), tube suction($26), hose oil($12), clip oil($32) and tank ($16). Labor will be 3 hours - so $389.

This total comes to $2554 (parts) and $1168 (labor). The dealer has agreed to give a 15% discount bringing total after taxes to $3385.
Was also told rear brake pads are between 2-3 mm so will need new brake pads and resurfacing rotors for rear wheels - an additional $300 + taxes(7% in NJ).

I obviously do not wish to compromise on safety since brakes are involved and am concerned that engine parts are involved. Also need power steering to work. However, $3700 is a lot of money and I do not want to get ripped off or spend much more than I really need to in order to get my car fixed. Should I get some work done from the dealer -- or take car to a local mechanic? I thought this was major work so felt it best to get it done by the dealer for a 1 year warranty -- also since I don't personally know any really good mechanics (located in New Jersey - north/central). However, I am not knowledgeable about what the best course of action is.
All advice and input based on your knowledge and experience is much appreciated.

Thanks a lot!

nfnsquared

Well, for one thing, they are overcharging you for parts:

Master cylinder is $171.16.

http://www.acurapartswarehouse.com/P...gPicture=False

Front mount $153.16
side mount $68.67

http://www.acurapartswarehouse.com/P...gPicture=False

PS pump $277.35

http://www.acurapartswarehouse.com/P...gPicture=False

I'd be very suspicious of this dealership since they are already charging over list price for parts. That's pretty slimy. And I have no idea what that $1600 modulator is.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

^the vsa modulator.

I recently changed out my brake master cylinder.

Items Ordered:
Item: , Master cylinder, tl
Price: $128.37
Tax: $0.00
Qty: 1
Total: $128.37

from OEMacuraparts.com

Here is my thread.
https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-problems-fixes-114/brake-check-808641/#post12765078

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

THere is also a TSB
http://techinfo.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SB/B07-041.PDF

Which list the symptom; when brakes applied the pedal is lower and feels softer than normal.
it is caused by air entering the the brake system from the VSA Modulator-control unit.

nfnsquared

^^^ahhhhh...

OP, ask them how they know both the MC and VSA modulator are bad?

Also, there is a TSB (B07-041) for the VSA modulators for 04-06. If it really is your VSA modulator, you can try for a goodwill replacement.

Have you had the PS recall done on your car? It's TSB 08-016. eThis is a recall, so warranty doesn't matter.

Go to this link, follow the instructions, and click on the links for the TSBs:

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-2004-2008-93/3g-tl-technical-service-bulletins-tsbs-3g-garage-j-016-a-613659/

And FYI, the VSA modulator is $1312.88 list, $968.91 discount. These guys are really crooks. What dealership is this?

http://www.acurapartswarehouse.com/P...gPicture=False

speedytypes

I just installed all new motor mounts on my car two days ago and it took me 3.5 hours to do all three on my driveway without any power tools. Its a relatively simple job, the front one alone should not take anymore then 1 hour. As for your brakes I dont see why you have to replace the ABS modulator as it has nothing to do with those leaky seals. The master cylinder yes, thats where your problem is. I think you should find a trust worthy shop and save yourself a tone of dough.

sharpWheels

Hi nfnsquared,justnspace,speedytypes,

Thanks a lot for taking the time to help me out and for all your advice.

nfnsquared, I checked each of the above links from the online store you sent and looks like acurapartswarehouse.com is having a sale on (at least) these parts because they are all further discounted from the prices you listed. Have you had a good experience ordering parts for your Acura from this site ? So, the parts would have the same warranty if I were to get them installed at a local(non-dealer) auto shop as I would if I got them installed at a dealer?

I am indeed very suspicious of the dealer who have my car currently. They are going to charge $125 for diagnosing the problem (if I dont get the work done from them) And all they have told me as the reasons why all these parts needed to be changed are what I listed in my original post. Now I am not knowledgeable about these things but the explanations provided do not sound complete/very convincing -- like you said, nfnsquared/speedytypes, I will ask them why they say both Master cylinder and ABS Modulator need to be changed. I think the dealer is going to ask me to decide by tomorrow morning if I am getting any work done from them or bringing my car back - as I have their loaner.

Appears to me the wisest course of action is to pay the $125 but get a list of all part #s from them and then find a reliable mechanic in New Jersey/New York(would you guys know of any or point me to any online resource on this site or another where I might be able to find one - are the ones recommended by AAA usually trustworthy ?) and get the parts from acurapartswarehouse.com or OEMacuraparts.com

Hey justnspace/nfnsquared, Do I have any rights/benefits from Acura because there is a TSB on the brake pedal problem ? What should I be telling them ?

I did get the PS hose changed as part of the recall a couple of years ago.

Thanks so much again!

sharpWheels

Gentlemen, Thank you for your advice. I had anothert question - is there possibility of further damage if I drive my TL for a short(not more than 1-2 weeks) period of time till I find a trustworthy auto shop to take my car to in order to confirm if I really need to replace all the parts this dealer is telling me to change(and based on advice above, I am not sure if the ABS VSA modulator needs to be changed). The steering is ok during normal driving - I have a hard time only when I am parallel parking or a bit during a U-turn. The brakes do work - it's only sometimes that the pedal goes all the way down before I can get the car to stop. Just a bit worried if there's a leak around engine which has broken the front and side mounts(as per the dealer) - if it could become a bigger problem if I drive my car for even a week - is this something I could check for myself ? Don't have any tools though and no prior experience working on cars :-( Do a friend next door who's pretty knowledgeable whom I know will be happy to take a quick look if I request him to.

Justnspace & nfnsquared, Thanks for letting me know about the TSB for the brake pedal. As advised, I will contact my Acura District Parts and Service Manager/Zone Office - guess their phone numbers would be listed on acura.com.

Justnspace, thanks for sharing your brake issue thread. Like you did, do you know based on what I told you if my course of action would also be to have the shop do the following? : replace the MC, put on SS lines, fill with 5.1 brake fluid. bleed. then drive and engage ABS, drain fluid. refill fluid and rebleed.

Or Justnspace/Speedytypes, I am wondering if as per the TSB you provided, it is the VSA modulator that needs to be changed, could there be a possibility that the master cylinder is not bad ?

Also, would you be able to give a guesstimate on how much labor cost is reasonable for each of the PS, brake(each of MC and modulator, and replacing rear brake pads and resurfacing rear rotors), and engine mount replacement jobs ? I would like to have some kind of reference numbers when I go to another mechanic -- to know if I am getting a good deal - or not getting ripped off.

Thanks!

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

For some one like myself, I cant afford to go to a dealer or to start replacing unnecessary parts.

The VSA modulator is a very important piece. I dont know if it would throw a code if it went bad.

My problem is a bit different than yours. A foreign substance was introduced into the brake Master cylinder, causing the seals inside to go bad.
I decided to just replace my MC.

your problem is a bit different, if i understand correctly....it started doing this on its own.
if no foreign contaminants entered your Master Cylinder, I would PRESS the dealer for that TSB. As it sounds like the VSA modulator introduced air into the system on its own.

The only problem about driving it for a short week would be the safety aspects, ie: not stopping.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

to add, if the dealer isnt willing to replace the the VSA modulator under good will, I would just replace the MC.

In my thread, my friend Powerflow(Jordan) had said that he has replaced several honda/acura Master cylinders and said that the pedal to the floor is a classic symptom of a MC going bad.

nfnsquared

I think you need to go to the District Manager and ACS and complain about being overcharged for parts, and at the same time threaten to go to the State Attorney General's office.

Then get your car out of there and go to a Honda dealer or a reliable independent shop. I would refuse to pay for the diagnoses and use the fact that they were attempting to overcharge you for parts as a reason.

If not, pay the $125 with a credit card and inform them you will be disputing the charge with your credit card company along with a complaint to the BBB. You need to file a complaint with the BBB anyhow for the overcharging.

Any Honda/Acura part bought by you can be installed with full warranty by any Honda/Acura dealer. Don't let them tell you otherwise.

The links I gave you are just one of many online sources that sell Acura parts at a discount from retail. Use the "vendors" link at the top of the page you can find some Azine vendors that also sell discounted parts.

I would replace the MC first and see what happens.

Ask them if they pulled any DTC's (codes) during the diagnosis and have them put them in writing.

TLtrigirl

iTrader: (1)

the dealer pricing on parts is MSRP, not list pricing. dealer is trying to make a profit, aren't they all??

to OP, if you went with the dealer to do the work, you could save some money ordering the parts online (also consider that shipping thing too when ordering), and have them or an indy shop do the install for you.

or you could try a honda dealer as well which labor wise could be cheaper.

i paid $22 for a new rear end link at the dealer. list price was $17 online, and discounted to like $14 if you ordered online. not sure on the shipping, but i would think its almost a wash. of course the more you order the more you might save.

the prices they quote you for labor are what the little book says they should charge. so you could try and negotiate with them depending on your relationship with your dealer. they just might surprise you. my service advisor went as far as giving me essentially free recommendations to possibly help fix my recent suspension rattle b/c he told me if you come here, its gonna cost you, so he was trying to help me save some money. so i have a good working relationship with my dealer. yes i pay more for maintenance, but you do pay for what you get.

easiest way to save a few bucks...DIY with a mechanically incline car buddy with a garage full of tools.

paperboy42190

iTrader: (7)

if you are mechanically inclined at all you can do most of those yourself. if not, buy the parts you need online and take it to an indie shop. that way you will save yourself like at least $1000

sharpWheels

I asked the service manager if the Modulator threw a code but he said it did not - because it had internal leakage. Was also told Master Cylinder has internal leakage as well, so both need to be changed.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

^could be possible.

In my case, I was scared that the VSA modulator's inner rubber seals would fail from the contaminant.

I havent had a problem since, granted I dont drive much.

nfnsquared

With a bad MC, I'd like to know how they determine the modulator has an internal leak....

sharpWheels

Appreciate your input. I could get Original acura parts online and get an independent shop or Honda dealer to do it..Doing it myself is not an option - I dont have any prior experience nor do I have a really good friend who is mechanically inclined whom I could request to help me ..
I am glad to know you had a good experience with your dealer. I am not sure at all if they are being reasonable with the labor estimate - because they are stating each of the 3 jobs require a flat 3 hours of labor each (1. Modulater+MC; 2. Front and side engine mounts and 3. PS pump and hoses. ) I called a local Firestone and their estimate for PS pump replacement was 1 hour - 1/3 of what the dealer is saying.

Thanks again.

sharpWheels

Response to nfnsquared's advice :

With a bad MC, I'd like to know how they determine the modulator has an internal leak....
------------


I will talk to the service manager and ask how they know modulator has internal leakage if MC has internal leakage -- do you believe it can only be one or the other ?

Thank you.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

^unless a foreign contaminate was introduced, I dont see how the vsa modulator will get affected.
even then, my vsa modulator is fine.

will let Nfnsquared chime in as well.

TLtrigirl

iTrader: (1)

keep in mind they have this little book from corporate that tells them what to charge for each job. so it really doesn't matter how long it actually takes to do the job. if the book says 3 hours and they finish in 1.5 or 2, they still get paid for 3. yeah its messed up, but that's how the industry (at least dealers) work. if they did it by the actual time, then the tech could milk the time on a job. so the dealer techs essentially, get an incentive by finishing the job ahead of the "book" time (think bonus or commission). the local firestone, will have a lower labor rate, and give you real time labor rates, but they are working off volume of jobs they see in a day as the dealer does (the incentives are what keep techs at the dealer ie make more money).

it comes down to trusting the guy monkeying around under your hood. i love my car too much to just take it anywhere. thankfully my dealer has earned my trust, so i'm willing to pay out the ear for certain things. otherwise, i'll get my brother to help me out if he's willing and able(wrenching on the car).

good luck.

sharpWheels

Thank you to all for all your sound advice.

As advised, I went ahead and called Acura Client Relations to make a goodwill assistance request. Provided them with the TSBs that you shared with me and also a price comparision :

Modulator 57110-SEP-A14 Dealer's quote $ 1598.69 Competitor quote $968.91

Master cylinder 46100-SDB-A11 Dealer's quote $208.43 Competitor quote $ 126.32

Front engine mount 50820-SEP-A01 Dealer's quote $203.74 Competitor quote $113.01

Side engine mount 50820-SEP-A01 Dealer's quote $104.52 Competitor quote $50.68

Power Steering PUMP 56100-RDA-A01RM Dealer's quote $337.72 Competitor quote $266.18

Told Acura Corporate that this dealer was attempting to overcharge me. They asked who this competitor is - told them it was www.acurapartswarehouse.com and said their website FAQs say they are an authorised Acura dealership in Southern Cal. The Acura rep checked and told me they are not an authorised Acura dealership - so I called the warehouse and they did say they were affiliated with an Acura dealership uptil about 2 months ago - but are not anymore. For my purpose, it doesnot matter because they did say they sell original Acura parts so if I want to buy and get another shop to install the parts. Acura Corporate opened up a Case for me and told me my goodwill assistance request would move a lot faster if I called the Dealer's service manager since the dealers have direct contact with the Corporate Parts and Service Manager who decides on the goodwill request. So thats what I did. Last night the service manager at the dealership that Acura had agreed to pay for 30% of the cost(parts and labor) and the dealer would pay the rest 5%. As I understand it currently, I would be paying 65 % of the following for each of these parts :
$ 1345.70 Modulator
$175.45 MC
$156.96 FE mount
$70.38 side engine mount
$284.28 PS pump
$7 hose oil
$16 tube suction
$7 hose oil
$7 clip oil
$19.43 tank

plus 65 % of labor which he said was 65% of $897
Was told total would be $2090 + tax

The benefit for me to do this at the dealer is I am relocating to the MidWest(Missouri) from New Jersey in a few months and I would have 12 months warranty on parts and labor.
I would like to weigh this benefit against how much I would be overpaying doing everything at the dealer as opposed to getting original acura parts from an online store like acurapartswarehouse.com(prices of big items listed above) and get them installed from a shop (Acura dealer or Honda dealer or non - dealer shop). Acura Corporate also told me warranty on labor applies only when installation is done by an acura dealership(not Honda). Also, to avail parts warranty, Acura will require proof(invoice) showing purchase came from an Acura dealership -- so I am guessing if I got parts from acurapartswarehouse.com, I would need them to send me that invoice showing they purchased the parts they sold me from an Acura dealer. I am wondering if anyone out there has experience/knowledge about this and could please share what they know about this online store or any other and warranty validity?
I am going to call the dealer to ask for a written estimate with all discounts included so I have the complete breakup to do a price comparision.

Is there anything else I should keep in mind/ask the dealer ? Please let me know.

Thanks again!

2008whiteTL

/\ What Acura dealer did you go to in jersey ??

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

Good Luck, sir.