Justnspace vs J32/J37
10-12-2014, 03:27 AM
#481
well, power-weight on the TL is .074 in stock form for the 3.2L
that little 4 cylinder is 500lbs less than the TL, and at 201HP for the turbocharged 4 it's power-weight is .067
at least it didn't look like this with the little hyundai coming from behind
that little 4 cylinder is 500lbs less than the TL, and at 201HP for the turbocharged 4 it's power-weight is .067
at least it didn't look like this with the little hyundai coming from behind
10-12-2014, 09:33 AM
#482
well, I went out looking for a race.
and I found one.
a Hyundai Veloster.
pretty cocky considering he is a 4 turbo.
except, I was the one surprised.
Multiple pulls with the same outcome.
He was always a fender behind me.
If he was modded; More power to him. :applause:
if not; I lost power.
but that's the name of the game.
I always knew this platform isnt the best to start off with.
and with my friend breaking the engine; all I wanted to do is fix the engine.
I aint worried about being the fastest TL out there any more.
I just want to fix the issues and have a long living TL.
and I found one.
a Hyundai Veloster.
pretty cocky considering he is a 4 turbo.
except, I was the one surprised.
Multiple pulls with the same outcome.
He was always a fender behind me.
If he was modded; More power to him. :applause:
if not; I lost power.
but that's the name of the game.
I always knew this platform isnt the best to start off with.
and with my friend breaking the engine; all I wanted to do is fix the engine.
I aint worried about being the fastest TL out there any more.
I just want to fix the issues and have a long living TL.
Don't you have a Hondata? If so, why haven't you tuned it yet? You didn't do a maintenance part, and this isn't a carbed engine you can change the jets on and twist the distributor for added power. You essentially changed the entire VE of the engine - a retune is necessary for optimal performance.
Until you tune it, you don't know if you are running too rich, too lean, too much advance and having knock, or too little timing and leaving power on the table. What cams did you go with? Type-S? They are designed for a 3.5L so you may have shifted your peak power up ever so slightly, especially with the increased flow from the 3.7 heads. I don't think injectors are going to be your issue, but what about the intake manifold? Do you already have the 3.7IM? If not, you could just be choking the heads and not letting them do what they can do, which would backfire with the Type-S cams.
This reminds me of years ago guys would do heads, cam and intake on a 5.0 Mustang and still have stock exhaust manifolds. They then wondered why they were peaking power at 4300 rpms and only making 190whp. Slap a set of long tubes on it and bam - 300+ whp.
I'll beat this dead horse again - while it's great you bought a nice part you can hold in your hands, it is JUST as important, if not MORESO to have the part you cannot hold in your hand - the tuning. smh
The following 5 users liked this post by screaminz28:
1black_seven (10-13-2014),
Chisel (10-12-2014),
simione (10-12-2014),
Sonnick (10-12-2014),
yungone501 (10-12-2014)
10-12-2014, 11:27 AM
#483
Don't you have a Hondata? If so, why haven't you tuned it yet? You didn't do a maintenance part, and this isn't a carbed engine you can change the jets on and twist the distributor for added power. You essentially changed the entire VE of the engine - a retune is necessary for optimal performance.
Until you tune it, you don't know if you are running too rich, too lean, too much advance and having knock, or too little timing and leaving power on the table. What cams did you go with? Type-S? They are designed for a 3.5L so you may have shifted your peak power up ever so slightly, especially with the increased flow from the 3.7 heads. I don't think injectors are going to be your issue, but what about the intake manifold? Do you already have the 3.7IM? If not, you could just be choking the heads and not letting them do what they can do, which would backfire with the Type-S cams.
Until you tune it, you don't know if you are running too rich, too lean, too much advance and having knock, or too little timing and leaving power on the table. What cams did you go with? Type-S? They are designed for a 3.5L so you may have shifted your peak power up ever so slightly, especially with the increased flow from the 3.7 heads. I don't think injectors are going to be your issue, but what about the intake manifold? Do you already have the 3.7IM? If not, you could just be choking the heads and not letting them do what they can do, which would backfire with the Type-S cams.
As for tuning, I wasn't aware that Justin has installed the j35a8 ECM and is running Hondata!? Geez, there could be so much more to pull from this engine if its tuned right. But I reallllllly don't remember him having Hondata...
As for the cams, they surprisingly have the same lift specs as does the MDX 3.7 cams and considering the different applications I'm quite certain their duration profiles are different. The MDX cams will definitely have more torque down low whereas the Type S cams will be more spirited up top. And as Screaminz28, the Type S cams will act a little different with the 3.7 heads that what they would with the 3.5 heads and when the car is put on a dyno, these differences can be corrected/optimized by the tuner.
Lastly, the injectors will actually have MUCH to do with this setup because their spray pattern isn't supportive of the tumble port. The MDX injectors will actually have a flatter spray pattern to compliment the port design and this will obviously increase power by improving mixture burn completion as well as ensuring the fuel is evenly mixed with the air.
I don't think many people look at an engine the way it's actually works. It's all about matching and complimenting one part to the next. And the parts chosen should be matched with the purpose or intent with the engine....and countless other factors that are important as well.
10-12-2014, 12:42 PM
#484
Team Owner
The Veloster also has it's peak torque super low in the rpm band due to the turbo. My wife has the 2.0T Sonata and according to dyno sheets on the stock car, it hits it's peak torque at like 1500rpm and stays steady for much of the power band. I believe the Veloster is a detuned version of that engine/turbo setup.
And sadly, the stock slushbox transmission 2.0T Sonata blows my slightly modded 6MT TL out of the water. The wife left the Sonata in "Eco" mode and she would beat me by a full car length. I'd hate to see what would happen if she took it off "Eco" mode.
And sadly, the stock slushbox transmission 2.0T Sonata blows my slightly modded 6MT TL out of the water. The wife left the Sonata in "Eco" mode and she would beat me by a full car length. I'd hate to see what would happen if she took it off "Eco" mode.
10-12-2014, 12:44 PM
#485
Team Owner
I must say, its good to see someone making sense around here. I couldn't agree more.
As for tuning, I wasn't aware that Justin has installed the j35a8 ECM and is running Hondata!? Geez, there could be so much more to pull from this engine if its tuned right. But I reallllllly don't remember him having Hondata...
As for the cams, they surprisingly have the same lift specs as does the MDX 3.7 cams and considering the different applications I'm quite certain their duration profiles are different. The MDX cams will definitely have more torque down low whereas the Type S cams will be more spirited up top. And as Screaminz28, the Type S cams will act a little different with the 3.7 heads that what they would with the 3.5 heads and when the car is put on a dyno, these differences can be corrected/optimized by the tuner.
Lastly, the injectors will actually have MUCH to do with this setup because their spray pattern isn't supportive of the tumble port. The MDX injectors will actually have a flatter spray pattern to compliment the port design and this will obviously increase power by improving mixture burn completion as well as ensuring the fuel is evenly mixed with the air.
I don't think many people look at an engine the way it's actually works. It's all about matching and complimenting one part to the next. And the parts chosen should be matched with the purpose or intent with the engine....and countless other factors that are important as well.
As for tuning, I wasn't aware that Justin has installed the j35a8 ECM and is running Hondata!? Geez, there could be so much more to pull from this engine if its tuned right. But I reallllllly don't remember him having Hondata...
As for the cams, they surprisingly have the same lift specs as does the MDX 3.7 cams and considering the different applications I'm quite certain their duration profiles are different. The MDX cams will definitely have more torque down low whereas the Type S cams will be more spirited up top. And as Screaminz28, the Type S cams will act a little different with the 3.7 heads that what they would with the 3.5 heads and when the car is put on a dyno, these differences can be corrected/optimized by the tuner.
Lastly, the injectors will actually have MUCH to do with this setup because their spray pattern isn't supportive of the tumble port. The MDX injectors will actually have a flatter spray pattern to compliment the port design and this will obviously increase power by improving mixture burn completion as well as ensuring the fuel is evenly mixed with the air.
I don't think many people look at an engine the way it's actually works. It's all about matching and complimenting one part to the next. And the parts chosen should be matched with the purpose or intent with the engine....and countless other factors that are important as well.
10-12-2014, 01:49 PM
#486
What I'm a saying is that if you swap over anything from another engine, especially one of smaller or larger displacement, to make sure you complete the swap by using all parts that compliment that part and ensure it nets a gain in the first place. Everyone doing these 3.7 manifold/TB swaps on their 3.2 and 3.5 engines don't realize the full extent of what they're doing. Adding more volume in one place doesn't automatically make gains or even worthwhile gains.
and yes, the 3.7 swap is easily done on the 07-08 3.2 and 3.5 TL's of which it can actually bolt up to the transmission.
10-12-2014, 02:29 PM
#487
All motor
The Veloster also has it's peak torque super low in the rpm band due to the turbo. My wife has the 2.0T Sonata and according to dyno sheets on the stock car, it hits it's peak torque at like 1500rpm and stays steady for much of the power band. I believe the Veloster is a detuned version of that engine/turbo setup.
And sadly, the stock slushbox transmission 2.0T Sonata blows my slightly modded 6MT TL out of the water. The wife left the Sonata in "Eco" mode and she would beat me by a full car length. I'd hate to see what would happen if she took it off "Eco" mode.
And sadly, the stock slushbox transmission 2.0T Sonata blows my slightly modded 6MT TL out of the water. The wife left the Sonata in "Eco" mode and she would beat me by a full car length. I'd hate to see what would happen if she took it off "Eco" mode.
10-12-2014, 02:57 PM
#488
Team Owner
But on the other hand, the Sonata sucks big time to drive. The car feels anemic and the suspension sucks even more. It's just god awful. I know the suspension can be improved, but let's be honest- I'm not putting parts on a Sonata, lol.
10-12-2014, 03:02 PM
#489
Team Owner
No, but that wouldn't be impossible to do either.
What I'm a saying is that if you swap over anything from another engine, especially one of smaller or larger displacement, to make sure you complete the swap by using all parts that compliment that part and ensure it nets a gain in the first place. Everyone doing these 3.7 manifold/TB swaps on their 3.2 and 3.5 engines don't realize the full extent of what they're doing. Adding more volume in one place doesn't automatically make gains or even worthwhile gains.
and yes, the 3.7 swap is easily done on the 07-08 3.2 and 3.5 TL's of which it can actually bolt up to the transmission.
What I'm a saying is that if you swap over anything from another engine, especially one of smaller or larger displacement, to make sure you complete the swap by using all parts that compliment that part and ensure it nets a gain in the first place. Everyone doing these 3.7 manifold/TB swaps on their 3.2 and 3.5 engines don't realize the full extent of what they're doing. Adding more volume in one place doesn't automatically make gains or even worthwhile gains.
and yes, the 3.7 swap is easily done on the 07-08 3.2 and 3.5 TL's of which it can actually bolt up to the transmission.
:ghey:Or would I have to find a 3.7 and 6MT package?
Rather than replace half the engine for modest gains, I honestly would consider just doing the 3.7 swap and be done with it. I'm assuming this hasn't really been done yet and I don't have the capability to be the first. If it was fairly easy, I'd seriously be interested.
10-12-2014, 05:55 PM
#490
Aw, so 3.7 swap into an '06? :ghey:
Or would I have to find a 3.7 and 6MT package?
Rather than replace half the engine for modest gains, I honestly would consider just doing the 3.7 swap and be done with it. I'm assuming this hasn't really been done yet and I don't have the capability to be the first. If it was fairly easy, I'd seriously be interested.
:ghey:Or would I have to find a 3.7 and 6MT package?
Rather than replace half the engine for modest gains, I honestly would consider just doing the 3.7 swap and be done with it. I'm assuming this hasn't really been done yet and I don't have the capability to be the first. If it was fairly easy, I'd seriously be interested.
Lastly, I don't believe anyone has performed a complete j37a1 head swap yet with all other supporting components such as runners, injectors, intake, throttle body and then the ability to tune for maximizing full power potential from the setup. Acura has reported that 20hp was gained from the 0.2 liter displacement increase (this includes the increase in compression as well) out of the 47hp total gained between the 2006 MDX 3.5 and the 2007 MDX 3.7. That leaves 27hp coming from the updated heads, cams, intake, and other smaller misc parts that were updated between the two year models...mind you, this was assuming all on a conservative factory tune. It could be more if the tune was more aggressive and performance oriented.
These gains could be even more if additional bolt ons were installed with the j37a1 "package" such as PCD's, full oversized exhaust, CAI, thermal isolators, etc.........just sayin'.
PS- This post is assuming the j37a1 components will be added to a 3.5 (ideally) displacement or less.
Last edited by yungone501; 10-12-2014 at 05:57 PM. Reason: Clarity on the matter...
10-12-2014, 07:46 PM
#491
I can't find the turbo specs on the Sonata or Veloster, but the Veloster is a 1.6L and it is torquey as well, so I'd expect it to have a smaller turbo than the sonata. I think the fastest Veloster is running around 101 with over 300 WHP. Kinda meh really.
Something waaay too American about tiny turbos and giving people that big block feel. It fools people into thinking their car is faster than it really is. I think it is because 30 years ago, heck even 15, American car makers could barely make an engine that was reliable turning over 4500rpms...
10-13-2014, 12:59 AM
#492
Team Owner
Correct, the 06 and older TL's have a bell housing bolt pattern that is like that of the j32a2. The j37a1, j37a2 and the j37a4 all have the newer bell housing design that the began with the 2005 (and later) RL and also the 2007 (and later) TL 3.2 and 3.5. And as you said, the only way you would be able to run a 3.7 block in your car is by swapping in the complete engine and transmission. The only way you would be able to use your existing harness and ECM is if you swap in the 6MT as the automatic transmission is a completely different design and cannot work with the ECM. In addition to this, you will need to use an 05+ RL or 07+ TL oil pan if you plan on using the 10+ j37a1, j37a2 or j37a4. However, the 07-09 MDX j37a1 utilizes the traditional oil pump mounted crank sensor and is compatible with your existing harness and ECM.
Lastly, I don't believe anyone has performed a complete j37a1 head swap yet with all other supporting components such as runners, injectors, intake, throttle body and then the ability to tune for maximizing full power potential from the setup. Acura has reported that 20hp was gained from the 0.2 liter displacement increase (this includes the increase in compression as well) out of the 47hp total gained between the 2006 MDX 3.5 and the 2007 MDX 3.7. That leaves 27hp coming from the updated heads, cams, intake, and other smaller misc parts that were updated between the two year models...mind you, this was assuming all on a conservative factory tune. It could be more if the tune was more aggressive and performance oriented.
These gains could be even more if additional bolt ons were installed with the j37a1 "package" such as PCD's, full oversized exhaust, CAI, thermal isolators, etc.........just sayin'.
PS- This post is assuming the j37a1 components will be added to a 3.5 (ideally) displacement or less.
Lastly, I don't believe anyone has performed a complete j37a1 head swap yet with all other supporting components such as runners, injectors, intake, throttle body and then the ability to tune for maximizing full power potential from the setup. Acura has reported that 20hp was gained from the 0.2 liter displacement increase (this includes the increase in compression as well) out of the 47hp total gained between the 2006 MDX 3.5 and the 2007 MDX 3.7. That leaves 27hp coming from the updated heads, cams, intake, and other smaller misc parts that were updated between the two year models...mind you, this was assuming all on a conservative factory tune. It could be more if the tune was more aggressive and performance oriented.
These gains could be even more if additional bolt ons were installed with the j37a1 "package" such as PCD's, full oversized exhaust, CAI, thermal isolators, etc.........just sayin'.
PS- This post is assuming the j37a1 components will be added to a 3.5 (ideally) displacement or less.
I figured if you can make the swap fit (custom mounts, I suppose?), then all that's left is to figure out the ECM and wiring (no easy task, I'm sure), unless it's possible to take those from the 4G as well and make them work.
Guys are able to take a J series and slap it in their civics, for which the two original cars have zero things in common. I'd imagine it'd be a little easier going from 4G to 3G, no?
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Funmonkey (06-15-2017)
10-13-2014, 01:56 AM
#493
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
well, I went out looking for a race.
and I found one.
a Hyundai Veloster.
pretty cocky considering he is a 4 turbo.
except, I was the one surprised.
Multiple pulls with the same outcome.
He was always a fender behind me.
If he was modded; More power to him. :applause:
if not; I lost power.
but that's the name of the game.
I always knew this platform isnt the best to start off with.
and with my friend breaking the engine; all I wanted to do is fix the engine.
I aint worried about being the fastest TL out there any more.
I just want to fix the issues and have a long living TL.
and I found one.
a Hyundai Veloster.
pretty cocky considering he is a 4 turbo.
except, I was the one surprised.
Multiple pulls with the same outcome.
He was always a fender behind me.
If he was modded; More power to him. :applause:
if not; I lost power.
but that's the name of the game.
I always knew this platform isnt the best to start off with.
and with my friend breaking the engine; all I wanted to do is fix the engine.
I aint worried about being the fastest TL out there any more.
I just want to fix the issues and have a long living TL.
10-13-2014, 07:02 AM
#494
now would be an opportune time to explain the race, huh?
well, like I said; I was looking for a race.
cant do that in the suburbs.
so, I trekked out to Mexico.
with the open lanes of mexico, i could stretch my legs a bit. quick 60-90 pulls and back down again.
this caught the attention of the Veloster and came up behind me.
I switched to the right lane and slowed down and as soon as he was at my driver's door I mashed the go fast pedal.
as I mentioned, he hung with me as I banged out 2 or three gears into triple digit speeds.
we would repeat these pulls and results several more times with the TL always coming out on top but the Veloster right behind it.
he signalled to take the upcoming exit and I honked and flashed a thumbs up as I passed. he held out his thumb
10-13-2014, 09:16 AM
#495
That's what I thought. Until you consider the Sonata is pushing 270 lbft of torque at 1500 rpm. That, and slightly more hp right out the box (274hp, I believe).
But on the other hand, the Sonata sucks big time to drive. The car feels anemic and the suspension sucks even more. It's just god awful. I know the suspension can be improved, but let's be honest- I'm not putting parts on a Sonata, lol.
But on the other hand, the Sonata sucks big time to drive. The car feels anemic and the suspension sucks even more. It's just god awful. I know the suspension can be improved, but let's be honest- I'm not putting parts on a Sonata, lol.
10-13-2014, 09:26 AM
#496
Wait a minute- why would the oil pan have to be switched out if using the entire 3.7+6MT combo? I have no interest in the automatic setup anyway- 6MT is the only way for me, lol. It'd be awesome to take the whole package out of a 4G TL (non AWD, of course) and make it work in the 3G.
10-13-2014, 10:06 AM
#498
Wait a minute- why would the oil pan have to be switched out if using the entire 3.7+6MT combo? I have no interest in the automatic setup anyway- 6MT is the only way for me, lol. It'd be awesome to take the whole package out of a 4G TL (non AWD, of course) and make it work in the 3G.
I figured if you can make the swap fit (custom mounts, I suppose?), then all that's left is to figure out the ECM and wiring (no easy task, I'm sure), unless it's possible to take those from the 4G as well and make them work.
Guys are able to take a J series and slap it in their civics, for which the two original cars have zero things in common. I'd imagine it'd be a little easier going from 4G to 3G, no?
I figured if you can make the swap fit (custom mounts, I suppose?), then all that's left is to figure out the ECM and wiring (no easy task, I'm sure), unless it's possible to take those from the 4G as well and make them work.
Guys are able to take a J series and slap it in their civics, for which the two original cars have zero things in common. I'd imagine it'd be a little easier going from 4G to 3G, no?
The following users liked this post:
TacoBello (10-13-2014)
10-13-2014, 10:30 AM
#499
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
now would be an opportune time to explain the race, huh?
well, like I said; I was looking for a race.
cant do that in the suburbs.
so, I trekked out to Mexico.
with the open lanes of mexico, i could stretch my legs a bit. quick 60-90 pulls and back down again.
this caught the attention of the Veloster and came up behind me.
I switched to the right lane and slowed down and as soon as he was at my driver's door I mashed the go fast pedal.
as I mentioned, he hung with me as I banged out 2 or three gears into triple digit speeds.
we would repeat these pulls and results several more times with the TL always coming out on top but the Veloster right behind it.
he signalled to take the upcoming exit and I honked and flashed a thumbs up as I passed. he held out his thumb
well, like I said; I was looking for a race.
cant do that in the suburbs.
so, I trekked out to Mexico.
with the open lanes of mexico, i could stretch my legs a bit. quick 60-90 pulls and back down again.
this caught the attention of the Veloster and came up behind me.
I switched to the right lane and slowed down and as soon as he was at my driver's door I mashed the go fast pedal.
as I mentioned, he hung with me as I banged out 2 or three gears into triple digit speeds.
we would repeat these pulls and results several more times with the TL always coming out on top but the Veloster right behind it.
he signalled to take the upcoming exit and I honked and flashed a thumbs up as I passed. he held out his thumb
10-13-2014, 11:20 AM
#501
10-13-2014, 11:50 AM
#502
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
10-13-2014, 12:21 PM
#503
Team Owner
The Sonata puts down more power, faster, then the TL does and both cars weigh pretty much the same.
I wonder if altitude plays a role on the turbo numbers with where I live and where you live?
10-13-2014, 12:23 PM
#504
Team Owner
10-13-2014, 12:57 PM
#505
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
In related news.. Justn was arrested in Mexico for illegally smuggling crabs.
10-13-2014, 05:27 PM
#506
Team Owner
10-13-2014, 05:30 PM
#507
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
Smuggling in.. he was deported back unfortunately. They seized his car, but upon hearing that he lost to a veloster, returned it back to Senor Crabs.
10-23-2014, 05:28 PM
#509
Co-workers complained that suspension was too stiff.
While adjusting; saw one of the rear precat bolts was missing and the source of the tiny exhaust leak!
adjusted front two clicks soft.
adjusted rears two clicks soft.
we'll see if they complain tomorrow.
While adjusting; saw one of the rear precat bolts was missing and the source of the tiny exhaust leak!
adjusted front two clicks soft.
adjusted rears two clicks soft.
we'll see if they complain tomorrow.
10-23-2014, 05:29 PM
#510
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
10-23-2014, 08:03 PM
#512
Hey justin did u ever dyno or plan to?
10-23-2014, 08:09 PM
#513
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
Dude.. you're a broken record. Enough.
10-24-2014, 07:17 AM
#515
lol hey there broken record. broken record, broken record.
it aint gonna dyno itself.
sure, I intend to dyno. however; its not going to happen over night.
I will need to fix my ongoing itty bitty issues before I can head to the dyno.
its also not a daily driver.
it sits in the garage a week at a time.
so, broken record....you're just going to have to wait until I am ready.
could be tomorrow, could be a year from now.
10-24-2014, 07:49 AM
#517
Do you recall which feelers you used for your adjustment?
I used NFN's suggestion of going tight tolerance on the intake side and loose on exhaust and my car has never been quieter.
Almost positive I used .008 on intake and .013 on exhaust.
I used NFN's suggestion of going tight tolerance on the intake side and loose on exhaust and my car has never been quieter.
Almost positive I used .008 on intake and .013 on exhaust.
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justnspace (10-24-2014)
10-24-2014, 07:56 AM
#518
^i took out the three feeler gauges in that range.
and ended up using the .013 on exhaust and .008 on intake per your suggestion, via nfn's suggestion.
I did it three times!
first time, i had got them all correct, but when torquing to correct value, they moved.
re-did it.
then checked one last time.
All the valves had a slight drag when inserting the feeler.
with a few heat cycles, they could have gotten tight tho.
and ended up using the .013 on exhaust and .008 on intake per your suggestion, via nfn's suggestion.
I did it three times!
first time, i had got them all correct, but when torquing to correct value, they moved.
re-did it.
then checked one last time.
All the valves had a slight drag when inserting the feeler.
with a few heat cycles, they could have gotten tight tho.
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rockstar143 (10-24-2014)
10-24-2014, 08:03 AM
#519
All motor
My valves are pretty loud lol. Justin, how does the car feel after the missing bolt was replaced? < -- UGH.
10-24-2014, 08:13 AM
#520
Yeah, I really thought I was losing my mind when I did the adjustment...like, you get almost all the way done and then keep thinking, okay but based on how this one feels, is number 11 and 4 too tight?!?! then you go check those and end up with too much gap...then the angle of the feeler creating false drag...
GAH.