Can anyone tell me if something is wrong these Images_manifold and runners??
05-29-2012, 07:47 PM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Can anyone tell me if something is wrong these Images_manifold and runners??
A while back when i was chaniging my knock sensor I noticed something funny which is shown on these pictures i took at this link...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/50207844@N06/?saved=1
As i have been always trying to find out the culprit to my low end problem, especially while driving on the highway for example going from 60 to 80 in fifth gear (AT).. it takes forever. The car really feels like its struggling.
Now back to those pitures as you can see on the manifold and the same runner port, one of them is clean as it can be and all the others have some good amount of bronze discoloration. Also on the runners under the same port from the manifold it is cleaner then the rest of them...
Im wondering if something is wrong with the injector, I talked to Innacurate about it and he mentioned from what I remember that it actually might be running rich on that particular cylinder from a faulty injector and washing out the ports.
My gas milage in the city is pretty bad but considering where i drive maybe not
Today i came home from a long trip and experiencing the same low end problem like usually i still managed to get 30 mpg on the highway at 68 mph avg speed. But looking around me how much weaker cars accelerate so easily it makes it hard for me to keep up unless i bring it to a lower gear. Under 2000 rpms it seems like there is almost no acceleration whatsoever.
If anybody has anything that they can contribute to this plese do so... thank you
http://www.flickr.com/photos/50207844@N06/?saved=1
As i have been always trying to find out the culprit to my low end problem, especially while driving on the highway for example going from 60 to 80 in fifth gear (AT).. it takes forever. The car really feels like its struggling.
Now back to those pitures as you can see on the manifold and the same runner port, one of them is clean as it can be and all the others have some good amount of bronze discoloration. Also on the runners under the same port from the manifold it is cleaner then the rest of them...
Im wondering if something is wrong with the injector, I talked to Innacurate about it and he mentioned from what I remember that it actually might be running rich on that particular cylinder from a faulty injector and washing out the ports.
My gas milage in the city is pretty bad but considering where i drive maybe not
Today i came home from a long trip and experiencing the same low end problem like usually i still managed to get 30 mpg on the highway at 68 mph avg speed. But looking around me how much weaker cars accelerate so easily it makes it hard for me to keep up unless i bring it to a lower gear. Under 2000 rpms it seems like there is almost no acceleration whatsoever.
If anybody has anything that they can contribute to this plese do so... thank you
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silverc4s (06-02-2012)
05-30-2012, 04:30 PM
#3
That's crazy; what cylinder is that?
I had to post on the local car site to find a shop in my area that had an injector tester/cleaner. They quoted me $10/injector to flow test them. You should look into that.
Maybe a valve adjustment is needed...
I had to post on the local car site to find a shop in my area that had an injector tester/cleaner. They quoted me $10/injector to flow test them. You should look into that.
Maybe a valve adjustment is needed...
05-31-2012, 01:03 PM
#5
Instructor
The fuel injector is right at the head and the area you are looking at is before that. Air is flowing through the intake manifold and down the runner and then past injector. No way for the injector to affect the areas you pointed at.
I am guessing the build up is from the oil fumes residue that are pulled in from the back head into the intake.
When i was doing a valve adjustment and pulled off both the valve covers i thought it was odd the front head looked 'dirty' compared to the back head.
I have the same residue in the intake manifold too, but i didn't look at the underside to see if there was difference in the runners and how it coated the areas.
I am guessing the build up is from the oil fumes residue that are pulled in from the back head into the intake.
When i was doing a valve adjustment and pulled off both the valve covers i thought it was odd the front head looked 'dirty' compared to the back head.
I have the same residue in the intake manifold too, but i didn't look at the underside to see if there was difference in the runners and how it coated the areas.
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05-31-2012, 02:46 PM
#8
Team Owner
The fuel injector is right at the head and the area you are looking at is before that. Air is flowing through the intake manifold and down the runner and then past injector. No way for the injector to affect the areas you pointed at.
I am guessing the build up is from the oil fumes residue that are pulled in from the back head into the intake.
When i was doing a valve adjustment and pulled off both the valve covers i thought it was odd the front head looked 'dirty' compared to the back head.
I have the same residue in the intake manifold too, but i didn't look at the underside to see if there was difference in the runners and how it coated the areas.
I am guessing the build up is from the oil fumes residue that are pulled in from the back head into the intake.
When i was doing a valve adjustment and pulled off both the valve covers i thought it was odd the front head looked 'dirty' compared to the back head.
I have the same residue in the intake manifold too, but i didn't look at the underside to see if there was difference in the runners and how it coated the areas.
The intake runners get dirty from PCV and EGR. Somehow it's free of oil and/or exhaust gas. If I had to guess it's the EGR that is somehow missing cylinder 4 and giving it the clean look. Look at how the EGR and PCV are tied into the intake manifold and you might find the answer. Without EGR and PCV, all runners would look like the clean one. That's exactly what my turbo car looked like after many miles on all cylinders.
05-31-2012, 04:35 PM
#10
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
can anyone then tell me how I should aproach this to have this issue finaly resolved. I changed a lot of things a none of them have cured the problem, some did help somwhat but i still have no low end power. Every other car i drive, be it a 4 cylinder 6 or whichever feels like it moves without effort, mine just feels opposite.
As i said i just took a trip from NJ to NC and anything under 80mph feels like the car is having a hard time going. At 80mph it feels different cause at that point i have much more torque. Nothing to brag about though
If i drop it to third she seems like she is picking up pretty good.
its just that regular driving that is killing me.
Should i reflash my ECU, maybe take it to a tuner... let him see whats going on with the fuel system.
The dealer is helpless, i tried while under warranty and they always told me that the car drives normaly, meanwhile when they gave me 05 tl loaner it was a night and day difference.
So many times i got to the point where i just wanted to get rid of it and buy something else but its a lot of money to waste...especially when you want something different then the TL you are looking into upgrading not downgrading.
But simply it doesnt make sense financially. For the hit i could get a trubo setup. My car has only 46 000 miles on it a still looks like a new car.
just dont know what to do anymore...
As i said i just took a trip from NJ to NC and anything under 80mph feels like the car is having a hard time going. At 80mph it feels different cause at that point i have much more torque. Nothing to brag about though
If i drop it to third she seems like she is picking up pretty good.
its just that regular driving that is killing me.
Should i reflash my ECU, maybe take it to a tuner... let him see whats going on with the fuel system.
The dealer is helpless, i tried while under warranty and they always told me that the car drives normaly, meanwhile when they gave me 05 tl loaner it was a night and day difference.
So many times i got to the point where i just wanted to get rid of it and buy something else but its a lot of money to waste...especially when you want something different then the TL you are looking into upgrading not downgrading.
But simply it doesnt make sense financially. For the hit i could get a trubo setup. My car has only 46 000 miles on it a still looks like a new car.
just dont know what to do anymore...
Last edited by BukvaMan; 05-31-2012 at 04:40 PM.
05-31-2012, 05:24 PM
#11
Team Owner
The one thing that's bothering me is the screw or thread impression in the runner. Maybe that's normal for this manifold? I mean, did it lose a butterfly down the IM and is that logistically possible on this setup? To be honest, I would pull that spark plug and any one of the others and compare. Look at your long term fuel trim and see if it's out of whack on that bank. That will tell the story. It's a super long shot that anything like that happened but having one cylinder with just enough air to not misfire but run very rich under throttle while the ECU leans out the other 2 cylinders on that bank to compensate would definitely lose torque. Don't get your hopes up on this being a fix but I would definitely compare the cylinder in question's spark plug to at least one of the others.
Otherwise, does the car ever run normally such as in the winter? Lack of timing will decrease the torque. If you have access to a scanner, definitely look at the knock retard, there should be little to none on premium fuel. It could be as simple as a knock sensor.
Otherwise, does the car ever run normally such as in the winter? Lack of timing will decrease the torque. If you have access to a scanner, definitely look at the knock retard, there should be little to none on premium fuel. It could be as simple as a knock sensor.
05-31-2012, 05:50 PM
#12
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
The one thing that's bothering me is the screw or thread impression in the runner. Maybe that's normal for this manifold? I mean, did it lose a butterfly down the IM and is that logistically possible on this setup? To be honest, I would pull that spark plug and any one of the others and compare. Look at your long term fuel trim and see if it's out of whack on that bank. That will tell the story. It's a super long shot that anything like that happened but having one cylinder with just enough air to not misfire but run very rich under throttle while the ECU leans out the other 2 cylinders on that bank to compensate would definitely lose torque. Don't get your hopes up on this being a fix but I would definitely compare the cylinder in question's spark plug to at least one of the others.
Otherwise, does the car ever run normally such as in the winter? Lack of timing will decrease the torque. If you have access to a scanner, definitely look at the knock retard, there should be little to none on premium fuel. It could be as simple as a knock sensor.
Otherwise, does the car ever run normally such as in the winter? Lack of timing will decrease the torque. If you have access to a scanner, definitely look at the knock retard, there should be little to none on premium fuel. It could be as simple as a knock sensor.
But those days you can count with your fingers... so to speak. As i dont have access to any monitoring divices i just changed things that possibly could cause the issue. So far i did change all the plugs, new knock sensor, iat sensor, coolant temperature sensor and thermost, map sensor. APP sensor. I also changed the transmission pressure switches and oil to redline.
Had my codes cleared at the dealership. There was never any check engine light by the way. Also cleaned my throttlebody, checked the butterfly movement (smooth) so no problems there. Checked the EGR valve , looked very normal.
I can never spin my tires, doesnt matter what time of the day, maybe slightly sometimes. Not my interest but just shows that something is wrong. And so on and on....
05-31-2012, 07:23 PM
#15
Team Owner
Its better in winter but still very noticable. Maybe its not pulling as much timing as it does in summer so i dont see that drastic change from a heatsaok. There are days where out of the blue the car transforms and everything works really amazing where i dont want to shut off the car at all But those days you can count with your fingers... so to speak.
As i dont have access to any monitoring divices i just changed things that possibly could cause the issue. So far i did change all the plugs, new knock sensor, iat sensor, coolant temperature sensor and thermost, map sensor. APP sensor. I also changed the transmission pressure switches and oil to redline.
Had my codes cleared at the dealership. There was never any check engine light by the way. Also cleaned my throttlebody, checked the butterfly movement (smooth) so no problems there. Checked the EGR valve , looked very normal.
I can never spin my tires, doesnt matter what time of the day, maybe slightly sometimes. Not my interest but just shows that something is wrong. And so on and on....
But those days you can count with your fingers... so to speak. As i dont have access to any monitoring divices i just changed things that possibly could cause the issue. So far i did change all the plugs, new knock sensor, iat sensor, coolant temperature sensor and thermost, map sensor. APP sensor. I also changed the transmission pressure switches and oil to redline.
Had my codes cleared at the dealership. There was never any check engine light by the way. Also cleaned my throttlebody, checked the butterfly movement (smooth) so no problems there. Checked the EGR valve , looked very normal.
I can never spin my tires, doesnt matter what time of the day, maybe slightly sometimes. Not my interest but just shows that something is wrong. And so on and on....
05-31-2012, 08:23 PM
#16
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I did try and i do think that it drives better with VSA disabled in the way you have mentioned but it is such a little difference where i think that it is just in my head and nothing else....
05-31-2012, 08:38 PM
#17
This might seem dumb, but have you tried seafoam to clean out the entire fuel system!? Sorry if I missed that or am misdirecting you.
Have any non ethanol gas stations near you?
J.
Also, did this problem just start happening?! Or did you always feel this way with the car?! Is the tranny in good shape?!
Have any non ethanol gas stations near you?
J.
Also, did this problem just start happening?! Or did you always feel this way with the car?! Is the tranny in good shape?!
05-31-2012, 08:44 PM
#18
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I seafomed as well. Soon after that changed the spark plugs. Its been a long time really, cant remember when it started or when i started noticing it. The longer you own the car i guess you feel every little thing. Could have been from the start then again im not sure...
06-02-2012, 03:24 AM
#19
I've been thinking about this for a while...
On my J30A5, all of the runners had similar PCV & EGR residue. I do not believe that this (single clean runner) is a common condition for these Honda J-series V6s to exhibit.
This is the worst case scenario; cylinder #4 is not pulling air into the cylinder during the intake stroke (with PCV and EGR). You might have a problem with improper valve lash (too tight) or a valve issue on the exhaust side.
On the Accord forums, there have been multiple instances of the #4 cylinder spark plug working itself loose. I do not know for sure why this is, but my theory is that it has to do to with the returnless fuel system that these cars use. The #4 cylinder is at the very end of the chain; it will go lean before any of the other cylinders.
I would like to see some compression numbers, pictures of the spark plugs, valve lash measurements, etc.
On my J30A5, all of the runners had similar PCV & EGR residue. I do not believe that this (single clean runner) is a common condition for these Honda J-series V6s to exhibit.
This is the worst case scenario; cylinder #4 is not pulling air into the cylinder during the intake stroke (with PCV and EGR). You might have a problem with improper valve lash (too tight) or a valve issue on the exhaust side.
On the Accord forums, there have been multiple instances of the #4 cylinder spark plug working itself loose. I do not know for sure why this is, but my theory is that it has to do to with the returnless fuel system that these cars use. The #4 cylinder is at the very end of the chain; it will go lean before any of the other cylinders.
I would like to see some compression numbers, pictures of the spark plugs, valve lash measurements, etc.
06-02-2012, 04:31 PM
#21
Team Owner
I've been thinking about this for a while...
On my J30A5, all of the runners had similar PCV & EGR residue. I do not believe that this (single clean runner) is a common condition for these Honda J-series V6s to exhibit.
This is the worst case scenario; cylinder #4 is not pulling air into the cylinder during the intake stroke (with PCV and EGR). You might have a problem with improper valve lash (too tight) or a valve issue on the exhaust side.
On the Accord forums, there have been multiple instances of the #4 cylinder spark plug working itself loose. I do not know for sure why this is, but my theory is that it has to do to with the returnless fuel system that these cars use. The #4 cylinder is at the very end of the chain; it will go lean before any of the other cylinders.
I would like to see some compression numbers, pictures of the spark plugs, valve lash measurements, etc.
On my J30A5, all of the runners had similar PCV & EGR residue. I do not believe that this (single clean runner) is a common condition for these Honda J-series V6s to exhibit.
This is the worst case scenario; cylinder #4 is not pulling air into the cylinder during the intake stroke (with PCV and EGR). You might have a problem with improper valve lash (too tight) or a valve issue on the exhaust side.
On the Accord forums, there have been multiple instances of the #4 cylinder spark plug working itself loose. I do not know for sure why this is, but my theory is that it has to do to with the returnless fuel system that these cars use. The #4 cylinder is at the very end of the chain; it will go lean before any of the other cylinders.
I would like to see some compression numbers, pictures of the spark plugs, valve lash measurements, etc.
06-02-2012, 09:05 PM
#22
Regardless of what happens after the intake valve like plugs and such, all thats required to make that residue is airflow with oil and egr with it. Either that cylinder is flowing no air in which you would notice a 25% decrease in power and a dead miss or due to the distribution upstream the egr is somehow missing that cylinder. Has anyone actually looked at the distribution?
I have the manifold off, but I'm not sure what I'm looking for as far as the EGR distribution.
06-04-2012, 05:48 AM
#23
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I've been thinking about this for a while...
On my J30A5, all of the runners had similar PCV & EGR residue. I do not believe that this (single clean runner) is a common condition for these Honda J-series V6s to exhibit.
This is the worst case scenario; cylinder #4 is not pulling air into the cylinder during the intake stroke (with PCV and EGR). You might have a problem with improper valve lash (too tight) or a valve issue on the exhaust side.
On the Accord forums, there have been multiple instances of the #4 cylinder spark plug working itself loose. I do not know for sure why this is, but my theory is that it has to do to with the returnless fuel system that these cars use. The #4 cylinder is at the very end of the chain; it will go lean before any of the other cylinders.
I would like to see some compression numbers, pictures of the spark plugs, valve lash measurements, etc.
On my J30A5, all of the runners had similar PCV & EGR residue. I do not believe that this (single clean runner) is a common condition for these Honda J-series V6s to exhibit.
This is the worst case scenario; cylinder #4 is not pulling air into the cylinder during the intake stroke (with PCV and EGR). You might have a problem with improper valve lash (too tight) or a valve issue on the exhaust side.
On the Accord forums, there have been multiple instances of the #4 cylinder spark plug working itself loose. I do not know for sure why this is, but my theory is that it has to do to with the returnless fuel system that these cars use. The #4 cylinder is at the very end of the chain; it will go lean before any of the other cylinders.
I would like to see some compression numbers, pictures of the spark plugs, valve lash measurements, etc.
06-04-2012, 07:08 PM
#24
Year/mileage?
My Accord @ 102K/5.5yrs had tight exhaust valves and a couple loose intake valves.
I would check the spark plug first. It might be a good idea to get a valve adjustment done; an independent shop will be cheaper than the dealer.
My Accord @ 102K/5.5yrs had tight exhaust valves and a couple loose intake valves.
I would check the spark plug first. It might be a good idea to get a valve adjustment done; an independent shop will be cheaper than the dealer.
06-04-2012, 09:27 PM
#25
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
its an 05 with 46k on it. I recently replaced all my spark plugs just to see if it would help. It made a slight difference, also when i was removing the old ones, some of them if not all were pretty loose and very easy to unscrew.
06-04-2012, 10:04 PM
#26
Team Owner
Loose plugs are usually caused by detonation assuming they were torqued right in the first place.
06-05-2012, 12:48 AM
#27
They're only torqued down to 13-16ftlbs, so they should be easy to remove with a 3/8" ratchet.
I think that's pretty low mileage to have valve lash out of spec, but that is a lot of heat cycles in 7-8yrs.
I think that's pretty low mileage to have valve lash out of spec, but that is a lot of heat cycles in 7-8yrs.
06-05-2012, 01:19 PM
#28
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Either it was never done right or its something else because i had the issue for a long time ... I do hear a lot of chatter under the hood though... Especially when warm
06-05-2012, 02:01 PM
#29
takin care of Business in
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Just saw this thread....
no power at 5th gear (AT) under 2000rpm is coz of the damn weight of the car....i felt the exact same way before I lost 600lbs (590 to be exact) of weight....
highway you should get 30+mpg....on my recent trip from Dallas, I got 32MPG on my way there and back on a hot afternoon....
if you have a android phone, get the torque app and a bluetooth scanner to check the timing retard/advance....am usually at +38deg of advance
EDIT: I think your manifold/runners are fine....do the PCV delete and EGR delete and check for marks on the runners....also run seafoam in your engine oil....i run 1/2 can of seafoam in gas tank (cleans fuel lines/injectors)....1/2 can of seafoam in vac port (cleans air path) and 1 can of seafoam in the engine oil crankcase....once done with this, i do an oil change within 200 miles of driving....
no power at 5th gear (AT) under 2000rpm is coz of the damn weight of the car....i felt the exact same way before I lost 600lbs (590 to be exact) of weight....
highway you should get 30+mpg....on my recent trip from Dallas, I got 32MPG on my way there and back on a hot afternoon....
if you have a android phone, get the torque app and a bluetooth scanner to check the timing retard/advance....am usually at +38deg of advance
EDIT: I think your manifold/runners are fine....do the PCV delete and EGR delete and check for marks on the runners....also run seafoam in your engine oil....i run 1/2 can of seafoam in gas tank (cleans fuel lines/injectors)....1/2 can of seafoam in vac port (cleans air path) and 1 can of seafoam in the engine oil crankcase....once done with this, i do an oil change within 200 miles of driving....
Last edited by swoosh; 06-05-2012 at 02:04 PM.
06-05-2012, 02:22 PM
#30
Does anybody have a picture of the underside of the intake manifold lid? I would be very interested to see how it separates the individual chambers within the intake manifold. I think I'm gonna pop mine off and have a look in the next couple days. Also notice the cleanest runner is the one closest to the PCV port. To me it seems that the oil mist from the PCV doesn't want to make that sharp 360 turn to get into the #4 runner. In the EGR chamber, it looks like there's normal exhaust flow making it's way to the tiny #4 runner hole. 
BTW: I had very equal distribution of crud in the intake runners of my wife's Pilot. But that vehicle uses a slightly older intake manifold design. The funny part was that the cylinder head with the PCV valve has the same discoloration of the valvetrain as the one pictured above. 108k miles and the fresh air head was perfectly clean, while the PCV head was all varnished. At least on the TL, the varnishing/PCV head is the one with the oil-cap on it (so you can look inside).
BTW: I had very equal distribution of crud in the intake runners of my wife's Pilot. But that vehicle uses a slightly older intake manifold design. The funny part was that the cylinder head with the PCV valve has the same discoloration of the valvetrain as the one pictured above. 108k miles and the fresh air head was perfectly clean, while the PCV head was all varnished. At least on the TL, the varnishing/PCV head is the one with the oil-cap on it (so you can look inside).
Last edited by 94eg!; 06-05-2012 at 02:26 PM.
06-05-2012, 02:54 PM
#31
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Just saw this thread....
no power at 5th gear (AT) under 2000rpm is coz of the damn weight of the car....i felt the exact same way before I lost 600lbs (590 to be exact) of weight....
highway you should get 30+mpg....on my recent trip from Dallas, I got 32MPG on my way there and back on a hot afternoon....
if you have a android phone, get the torque app and a bluetooth scanner to check the timing retard/advance....am usually at +38deg of advance
EDIT: I think your manifold/runners are fine....do the PCV delete and EGR delete and check for marks on the runners....also run seafoam in your engine oil....i run 1/2 can of seafoam in gas tank (cleans fuel lines/injectors)....1/2 can of seafoam in vac port (cleans air path) and 1 can of seafoam in the engine oil crankcase....once done with this, i do an oil change within 200 miles of driving....
no power at 5th gear (AT) under 2000rpm is coz of the damn weight of the car....i felt the exact same way before I lost 600lbs (590 to be exact) of weight....
highway you should get 30+mpg....on my recent trip from Dallas, I got 32MPG on my way there and back on a hot afternoon....
if you have a android phone, get the torque app and a bluetooth scanner to check the timing retard/advance....am usually at +38deg of advance
EDIT: I think your manifold/runners are fine....do the PCV delete and EGR delete and check for marks on the runners....also run seafoam in your engine oil....i run 1/2 can of seafoam in gas tank (cleans fuel lines/injectors)....1/2 can of seafoam in vac port (cleans air path) and 1 can of seafoam in the engine oil crankcase....once done with this, i do an oil change within 200 miles of driving....
06-05-2012, 03:01 PM
#32
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I love this forum, because it makes the car so much better because of all the good people here. Very sophisticated and knowledgeable. I mean ive been on here since 2004, had the 04 TL in manual when it just came out and wish i never traded in for an automatic. I was younger and where i was going with it, it was probably for the better . Now that i drive like a normal person i really miss it but cant make myself get into another one. If i do finally decide to get into something else its gonna have to be either a 5g TL or some other car brand.
everything aside this forum is really great and i learned a lot here.
. Now that i drive like a normal person i really miss it but cant make myself get into another one. If i do finally decide to get into something else its gonna have to be either a 5g TL or some other car brand. everything aside this forum is really great and i learned a lot here.
06-05-2012, 03:10 PM
#33
takin care of Business in
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^^^ if you think the ECU is pulling timing then get a scan tool and see if it really is pulling timing....
06-05-2012, 03:30 PM
#35
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^^^ I have an android phone so installed the torque pro app ($5) and got the bluetooth dongle for the obdII port (check the link in my sig which says "discounts from vendors" for the ELM adapter) which runs ~$20
i use that combination to monitor my engine parameters....
but you can always get ScanGauge or something more sophisticated for ~100 bucks
i use that combination to monitor my engine parameters....
but you can always get ScanGauge or something more sophisticated for ~100 bucks
06-05-2012, 03:35 PM
#36
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I have an Iphone and they dont have a proper App for it. so i gave up on that option. What do you thing of the Actron CP9580 ?? is it overkill or not worth money...
06-05-2012, 03:39 PM
#38
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
06-05-2012, 03:40 PM
#39
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^^^ but if the ECU is not retarding timing then we know its not his engine "persay" which is causing the loss of power....
for the iphone you can get the DashCommand/Rev either one ($40) and a ELM WIFI (not bluetooth) WIFI dongle....
for the iphone you can get the DashCommand/Rev either one ($40) and a ELM WIFI (not bluetooth) WIFI dongle....