elkechon

When i brake i feel them shaking. i was wondering wats wrong and wat do i need to change? is it the rotors? HELP

TLheaven

iTrader: (4)

I have the same problem, I think its caused by warped rotors.

elkechon

so they need to be changed?

csmeance

the pusling you are feeling is indeed the rotors. the problem can be fixed in 2 ways:

1. Cut the rotor so it is flat again, the problem with this that the problem will return soon since the rotor is less thick due to being cut

2. Get new rotors, I advise some performance rotors so they don't warp. I warped the rotors on my 04, now I have the racing brake rotors and aspec pads and they stop better and no warping even with heavy braking, and I mean 10 fold heavier than the stockers.

ssmtl2nv

iTrader: (2)

Come visit me at the pizzeria and I will help you out...

ssmtl2nv

iTrader: (2)

yes they do dont be cheap. if you plan on keeping the car, hit up excelerate and get some rotora slotted rotors and ceramic pads. They give the system much better life and stop on a dime this setup will run 175 for rotors and 75 for pads, plus another 75 bucks for installation, compared to 200 dollars for oem crap rotors and 60 bucks for pads.

Majofo

Definitely get new ones.. I turned mine and I've already noticed hot spotting at 2k miles and I don't steady pressure the brake.

btw csmeance.. does the racing brake rotors have a larger surface area (longer diameter) or does it dissipate the heat better?

csmeance

stock fitment, but the bite and heat dissapation is a lot better since the air-flow design is better, and as well the slots help get rid of the heat too.

01tl4tl

on RB rotors- they have special curved vanes in the center (stock are straight vanes) that expediate the movement of airflow thru the rotor to cool it- works really well
http://www.racingbrake.com/v/main/technology.asp
The side slots are not primarily for cooling-they do help a bit in that respect
Their real job: As you brake heavy, there is a gas pressure released from the pads. It can get high enought to physically push the pads away from the rotor during braking--not cool.
The side slots give the gasses a place to escape as the rotor passes thru the pads.
They also shave a micro amount of pad material that gets uneven during use.
That keeps the pads clean- fully flat/max contact, ready to stop on a dime and give 8 cents change

So there is not more rotor surface area- and its not really needed on a street driven TL with good rotors and pads- MrHeelToe has RacingBrake, and Excelerate has Rotora-
both can also get Stoptech - a good lower priced alternative

The RacingBrake ET series pads are specifically designed to work with the harder metal of their rotors, so bite and lifetime are maximized
Best to use same maker/matched parts when possible- designed to cooperate
Rotora has ceramic pads matched to their rotors
check the Off Topic link, Sponsored Sales for their threads on brakes, look for secret discount codes in signatures,
mention acurazine when calling or placing an order for special prices

Trew

iTrader: (1)

Get new rotors and avoid splashing through standing water with your wheels at all times. Cold water on hot brakes will almost always warp your rotors.

Majofo

~$120!? (non-brembos) $320!? (brembos).. man I'm cheap.. I really like the airflow design and I'm sure they're worth the money especially compared to OE performance and life. I'm going to save up.. maybe do the fronts first and rears a little later.

Thanks for the tips and info. I'm going to grab a code, maybe give them a call and see what kind of deal I can work out. I have lifetime replacement ceramic pads so I'll put a little bit more mileage on them and then swap those out along with the rotors.

When I bought the TL the fronts were warped and just barely within spec for turning. I figured the previous owner must have beat the crap out of the car especially in it's condition. I wish I knew the rotors tend to overheat and warp, would've saved the $15 / each and bought new RB ET / Stoptech.

DMZ

One of the leading causes of warped rotors is overtightened lug nuts. That's what happens when they let the airgun tighten until they can go no more. Reputable shops will use a torque stop on the air gun so they're tightened to 80 ft-lbs.

I think $324 a piece for rotors is outrageous. Original Brembos for the '04/5/6 6MT and the '07/8 Type-S are available for $70.03 each including shipping from www.placeforbrakes.com
.
.

Majofo

Where are you hearing this from? Sounds like an urban legend.. How could overtightened lug nuts make the brake rotor warp??

The whole point was buying a performance rotor that aides in cooling the rotor better than OE and is more reliable than OE. It is super expensive though.. It will take some serious consideration on my part.. I'm pretty cheap but not cheap when it comes to trying to get the most life and reliability out of any of my cars.

csmeance

they are not outrageous. The brembo ones that are 320 are 2 piece rotors that are a lot more expensive to make and what-not. Plus their performance increase is more than 10 fold. the regular brakes 120 each, are 1 piece rotors with RB's better design.

Bearcat94

And the replacement disc (you don't change the top hat) is a good bit less expensive so there is a one-time upfront "extra" cost in getting the 2-peice.

Also, it you DIY the RB, it'll be close to dealer installed prices for all new - which include pads/rotors that are aguably not as good.

01tl4tl

yes wheel lug overtightening and improper tightening procedure is a major cause of rotor warpage
Especially when they blast one lug on tight, then the others
It puts unequal stress pull on the axle hub thru the rotor

Never trust the stop sticks- the dont work accurate enough- better than nothing but not the best method
Thats why I was taught to bring the torque up by hand or air gun- in 3 steps of pressure- others use 2 and thats ok but 3 is better~IMO and that of aircraft mechanics and racers

spec for the TL wheel is 80 foot pounds
Check yours coming out of a shop and they will range from 90-110-140 -probably all different too!

Now does it make sense how that causes a problem?

The average street driver is fine on NAPA- or Kragen- or stoptech rotors and never complain.
If you want to keep the ceramic pads dont go RB, they will eat those pads fast.
The average driver doesnt need anything beyond a flat surfaced brembo and organic- semi mettalic pads

See the local parts store for suggestions and remember to flush out the brake fluid before any work on the pads and calipers

Bearcat94

Yes they were.

Got new tires a couple months ago. Right out of the shop, under braking, something didn't feel right - a little wobble/vibration.

Next morning took all the lugs off to put them at 80 ft/lbs. On each wheel one or two felt "normal", one or two felt a little to light or a little too strong BUT at least one on EVERY wheel were WAY WAY too tight - serious effort with a breaker bar to get loose. Bastards.

If I'd have left them, I'd have warped rotors.

It's all good now though.

01tl4tl

Have to be really careful- them doing it once starts the prob- the instant offset amounts of pull thru the metals is injurious to them.

You should be fine, but if they are super high dollar lightweight wheels- those will flex out easier.,,got to really be careful- tire handlers dont get the concept.
Even as I stood there explaining the star pattern (a foreign concept to that installer) and how to bring the lugs each to 50 hand tight- then 70- then 80 in a cross star pattern
and he proceeds to go in a circle and tighten each one to the stop stick with an air gun---which does not stop anything~
Made him STOP- I demonstrated the correct way and let him do it again

The scary part was he does his messed up way to every car--
But I seen it on nascar!! they go in a circle with the tightening and loosening!!
Yes, and they replace the rims every year- plus break a lot of rims at the lug hole, stress cracks, during the race season

01tl4tl

note for those shopping high performance rotors- you only need those on the front where 70% of the braking force/torque is happening.

Decent quality pads and rotors for the rears will work fine, slots on rear rotors are bling show-off only
The dont generate the same heat-gas pressure of the fronts
I run RB front slotted rotors- kragen rears and RB ET300 pads all around.

Majofo

So what you're saying is increased pressure on one particular lug will induce greater heat transfer from the axle / hub to the over pressurized point which will then transfer to the hub of the rotor and to the rotor surface. If we view the materials as being even in density we would see temps rise at that point and even out as the heat radiates through the surface. It's not far fetched because pressure is fairly proportionate with temperature, but wouldn't the metal oxides and surface finish dictate the relationship of heat transfer?

The fact that there is uniform contact along the hub would mean the heat transfer would be uniform along the hub even if there is more pressure at any single / multiple point/s. The heat dam would also prevent add'l heat transfer from the hub. I know torquing too much may definitely crack the wheel. Does anyone have a definitive resource like a thermocouple measurement or a heat gun to measure surface temperature distribution by a over torqued lug?.. I still think that heat generated by friction of the pad on the surface of the rotor to stop a 2 ton vehicle is +99% of the heat generated on the rotor.. but my mind is always open, just my inquisitive nature.. (The rotor below is not mine, just used for illustration)


What kind of pads are suggested for RB? Are ceramics too "soft"?

Also, I flushed out my brake fluid on all four lines just a few months ago when I turned the rotors & replaced my pads. As suggested I'll do it again in a few more months (every year after 3), but is it always recommended to flush system if you remove the caliper / replace pads?

DMZ

More than 10 fold? How?

Am I gonna be able to stop in 1/10th the distance?
If that were true, then they're definitely worth the extra $$$.

Majofo

I don't think he meant in the literal sense but purportedly longer life and better stopping performance either through shorter distance or decrease in brake fading after repeated emergency stops. The design looks like they may indeed cool better but it would be nice to see some numbers.

csmeance

Just as majofo put it. The feel, power and longevity are much better than the factory brembo's.

01tl4tl

Lug overtightening is about metal stress from excess pull/torque on the metals, even the pull exerted on the threads of the lugs and nuts!

Not so much the heat transfer issue, as far as I know.

The picture does illustrate well- imagine if you tighten 3 bolts on the top-bambambam See how that would cause the rim to not seat flush on the hub (possibly) and cause severe stress to the one side of a rim from tightening,
then tighten the others

Now go back and blast them well past the intended 80 foot pounds to 110-140ft lbs that an air gun will pump out. Most techs will go until the gun stops- and they are not set to stop at 80, they are on full power to get the lugs loose after the last guy put them on too tight-

Excess torque can literally stretch the bolts!! and cause them to loosen or break

Take your hand and push the little finger backwards really far
Now do the next finger a little push- the next bend backwads really hard
You are now experiencing what the metal from the rim -thru the rotor and connected at the hub is, so you also stress the hub--palm of your hand in the process

EVEN and correct pattern torque tightening is critical to keeping everything perfect

How many cars do you know with a vibration they cant fix? or wont hold balance etc
guess why

01tl4tl

If you flushed the brake fluid 2 months ago- its fine to work on the brakes today

The idea is to prevent any potential of backwashing microscopic crud and damaging the caliper oring or something worse like the ABS controller

So IMO, with our cars age, flush the brake fluid before you push a caliper piston back into its caliper-like when installng new pads

If you want to keep the ceramics, rotora is a better rotor for that choice, softer metal.
As for RB rotors- they are very hard mettalurgy- designed to last long time based on the developement for race car use originally~
They will tear thru hawk hps in a hurry, I dont see ceramics standing much more of a chance.
Thats why they made their own pad line ET300 and ET500 for street use -nothing on the market would last on their rotors- but they all stopped great!!
RB also has up to ET900 for race use only - not available for TL - sorry
The pad material is compatible with the rotors design- so they bite well and will have decent lifespan

Majofo

I got it .. Yeah I always do a star & rotated reverse star pattern. I have tended to over tighten a little because when I bought the TL the lugs were loose, almost able to loosen with finger strength.. so I don't want to mess around with it but I'll go back with the big torque wrench on each this weekend just for sanity's sake and put them at 80 ft/lbs.

By the time I save up for RB & ET Pads I think I'll be due for a flush. I've always flushed after but I 100% understand you by flushing it before replacing pads & pushing back caliper. I'll do that my next flush during rotor & pad replacement. Is there a substantial difference between ET300 & ET500?

antlive

01tl4l,

How do you think Hawk HPS will do on Rotora rotors????

Brettg

For those who actualy doubt, you should try doing the lug nuts up correctly, and I grease the rotor to hub, and rotor to wheel contact points, to prevent rust and aid heat transfer.
I have NEVER had a rotor warp after doing brakes this way.

The work provided vans get serviced at STS, and always warps the rotors, and when I get a flat, I find the lugs done up so tight, the lug nut wrench can not get them off.

I cant say if its just metal deformation, or heat related, or a combo of both, but I can say I have never had warped rotors doing it my way.

I tend to think many shops do this to get return service for warped rotors, its perfect, because it usualy takes a while before the rotors warp.

Brett

Brettg

What I do is open the bleed nipple when pushing the pistons in, to allow the old dirty fluid out, and it makes pushing the pistons in easier.

When I am done the brake pads, I bleed a cup of fluid through, then move onto the next wheel.

The old Teeves abs systems would get ruined by pushing fluid back into them, used on Jaguars and some GM products...

Dont ask me how I know this....

Brett

ssmtl2nv

iTrader: (2)

look like th op went MIA

Johnny_b

I'm bumping this instead of starting a new thread.

I recently put on front Rotora rotors and Rotora ceramic pads. Why are they warped to shit? Any ideas? I am not a heavy breaker at all. 500 dollars for front brakes and two months later they are warped? wtf

nfnsquared

Did you use the proper torque spec for the lug nuts?

Have you had the run out measured to be sure they are indeed warped?

Have you contacted the vendor?

csmeance

You might want to contact Rotora and the dealer that you used. What type of rotors and pads did you go with exactly? Slotted? Cross-drilled? Who did the install? how many miles on the pads and rotors? Were they bedded in?

Johnny_b

It actually just started pulsing at high speed brakes tonight so I haven't contacted the vendor or my mechanic yet(they were installed by a reputable garage that does nice work). Nor have I confirmed that it is actually warped rotors causing the pulsing. I'm pretty sure it is.

I didn't go slotted, hopefully that wasn't a mistake. Ordered from excelerate...

http://store.excelerateperformance.c...c/g-51735.aspx


http://store.excelerateperformance.c...m/g-51738.aspx

They were bedded in by the shop and they have been on the car for over a month. It is also worth noting that the wheels have been taken off once since then for a new set of summer tires. The tires were mounted and balanced by Acura of Boston a couple weeks ago. I don't have a way of checking the lug torque.

Thanks for the replies.


Let me clarify that the $ amount was in the mid 400s and included an oil change and my supplied parts.

csmeance

If it's vibrating at high speeds while braking then it's a slight warpage or buildup of pad material that is causing the rotor to be a bit uneven thus causing the vibration.

The tire/wheel change could have had an impact esp. if the dealership used an impact gun and they torqued it wrong (wrong pattern or specs).

If you had a Dial Indicator style gauge you could set it up and simply rotate the rotor (make sure its a 100% flat surface) and see how much the rotor varies by on the inside edge where the lugs would be. If it's slightly bent out of shape it could be a problem.

Also you could check the outside edge of the rotor and find the high spot that's causing the issue. Most shops that do brake work have this to measure run-out on rotors.

Johnny_b

Thanks. I'm going to bring it down there tomorrow. Should I have them resurfaced or should I buy a different brand?

I really have a hard time believing this has anything to do with hard braking. If this is yet another case of Acura of Boston negligence I highly doubt I will be getting any money out of them.