Jackass

So to go along with my other oddities on my '05 6-speed, I have some issues with 2nd and 6th gear. My 3rd gear is smooth as butter. However when the car is not warmed up (doesn't matter what the outside temp is) 2nd and 6th quite often are difficult to shift into. I took it into the dealership and they bled the clutch which didn't appear to help any. They don't usually grind, but they just will not go into gear. Sometimes double clutching helps, but usually I just have to keep pulling on the shifter then they finally engage.

I complained more and they changed the fluid out to the newer Acura fluid. That "seemed" to help quite a bit....that is until it got down into the single digits. My car sat out overnight for the first time and was grinding like crazy for the first few minutes of driving when trying to use 2nd.

So here are my questions:

1.) Will GM fluid help any more? I am still in warranty so don't want to play that game with the dealer quite yet.

2.) What do 2nd and 6th have mechanically in common?

3.) What do I need to do to get the dealer to look into this more?

Since I do not have 3rd gear issues they do not really believe there are issues. They can't seem to reproduce the shifting problems when they have it. It doesn't always do it, just when it does it happens to be when I pull out and can't get into 2nd gear which really sucks.

Jackass

No ideas? Suggestions?

t0talacuratl

iTrader: (3)

I'm starting to have the same issues as yourself. I put the GM fluid in about a week ago. It seems to help some, but the engagements are still alittle unsure while driving. I suspect the cold weather has alot to do with it. Also my clutch is starting to slip after shifting to second during spirited driving. I'm at 84k so I'm sure that doesn't help much. Don't really have any answers for you; just share some of your experience.

SouthernBoy

To Jackass (interesting handle);

What you're describing sounds like classic synchronizer and/or blocker ring problems and I vote for the synchronizers. Could also be the shifter forks but that is almost always accompanied by popping out of gear.

Are you the original owner of the car? If so, tell me in steps how you downshift.

1.) Will GM fluid help any more? I am still in warranty so don't want to play that game with the dealer quite yet.
--> Most likely, yes. Just make sure you use the correct GM fluid. You want the GMSFM stuff, part number 12377916.

2.) What do 2nd and 6th have mechanically in common?
--> Other than the obvious, most everything except for the synchronizers. The first four gears have multi-cone synchros; 5th and 6th do not.

3.) What do I need to do to get the dealer to look into this more?
--> If the problem is easily reproduceable, insist they look at it. You're under warranty, so they have a contractual obligation to make you whole.

Honda/Acura has some known and acknowledged problems with both their automatic and manual transmissions. Stay on their butt if the problem persists even after the GMSFM fluid fill.

SouthernBoy

To have a clutch beginning to slip after only 84K miles indicates something abnormal. Either you have a defective assembly, it was installed improperly, or your operation is in question. Do you tow with the car? Do you race the car? Do you live in an area with unusually steep hills? And lastly, please do not be offended, do you know how to properly operate a manual transmission?

The last question is not meant to be an insult or such. But frankly, it has been my experience that the vast majority of people who drive manuals, do not really understand how they work or how to use them. This is almost always the result of having been taught by somehow who also did not know how to properly operate the, so their bad habits just get passed on to the new learner.

t0talacuratl

iTrader: (3)

I'm not offended. I'm pretty good at driving a manual. I do spirited driving alot, but not enough for it to slip so soon. I bought the car with 29k, but I don't think it has been changed.

Jackass

Left over from college since I always had a tendancy to say and do dumb things. (well before the TV show and movie) Always been my handle on car forums.

No issues yet with it popping out of gear. Once it is in gear everything is fine.

Nope, bought a few months ago certified from an Acura dealer with 42k miles on it.

As for how I downshift? Most downshifts I at least rev match when in a hurry, and if casually driving in traffic I usually double clutch to get everything up to speed properly. My last 3 cars over the past 12 years or so have been manual transmission cars. I had a Z24 that lasted 9 years and 148k miles of me before it finally started showing signs of synchro issues. And I know what caused that...it was called me being in my 20s and being dumb.

The dealer has been pretty good so far. They take it for a couple days, give me a loaner to drive, then give it back to me saying they can't reproduce the problem. What sucks is the 2nd and 6th gear issue doesn't act up all the time. I can go several days without any issues. Then in a single morning drive to work I will fight 2nd the entire time. When it is below 20 and the car stays outside, 2nd grinds like crazy. Over the holidays my car sat outside at the in-laws and it was in the single digits....I tried to drive it one morning and 2nd made made my car sound like an old truck. Once I drove a few miles everything smoothed itself out again. Biggest problem is that it hasn't been that cold here again so taking it in to the dealer doesn't do much. Hopefully in the next few weeks it gets cold again over the weekend so I can take my car in Friday and just leave it there all weekend to freeze. Then hopefully by Monday morning it will be acting up for them.....as well as hopefully my power steering pump will be making all kinds of noise to get that worked on.

SouthernBoy

To Jackass;

I see you mentioned double clutching on downshifts. This tells me a good deal about what I was looking for. If you do this, obviously you have a better understanding than most. Rev matching only helps reduce clutch wear. Double clutching helps the clutch and the synchronizers.

Grinding when going into gear is usually caused by (in no particular order): clutch pressure still being exerted against the disk; bend/damaged shifter fork; worn synchronizers; failing blocker rings; worn dog teeth. Try this when everything is cold.

Start the engine, wait for it to get down to around 1000 RPM then shift to first gear. Was the shift completed Ok? Any grinding. Now do the exact same thing, only this time go into 3rd gear. Still Ok? Now try doing this in 2nd gear. Make sure that between each shift attempt you have engaged the clutch first (obviously in neutral) before making your shift.

What you are trying to prove is that the clutch is disengaging (there is another, better way to do this) and that the other gears are operating as they should.

As for a fix, I would suggest you try the GMSFM fluid. Can't hurt and it may be all you need to get everything working to your satisfaction.

Jackass

I know all about this from my Cavalier since my own stupidity trashed my 2nd gear synchro in that car. Young, dumb, and thinking I was driving a race car. Live and learn I guess.

My last car was a tC which I babied. My TL has hardly even seen anything past 5000 RPM. I do not power shift, burn my tires off, or really row through the gears fast....all of that is pretty hard on a car. Nice slow and smooth shifts, double clutching when I can and think about it, and just taking it easy for the most part.

I will try this tomorrow morning....if I remember. My car is garaged at night so "cold" will only be about 55F.

6MTrules

I've always had similar 2nd gear issues, once in a while, it is a bit stiff going into gear. Have the GMSMFM in. What I've found that if I shift from 1-2 at about 4K, then it is smooth as butter. My usual shift point is 3-3.5K for other gears. (Grandma, I know.)

Jackass

I went for a drive with the service adviser today....of course it was smooth as butter. They had already drained and strained the fluid looking for metal or something, so I was driving on fresh fluid again. Of course they weren't going to find anything in the fluid...it was less than 30 days old.

I was alson otified that my powertrain was covered for 7/100 which I did not know so not as concerned about it at the moment. They are going to discuss more and possibly replace the 2nd and 3rd gear synchros.

BTW, I did the tests that were suggested and it appears the clutch disengages properly every time. Just every once in a while 2nd just won't engage and end up in the middle of traffic trying accelerate in 3rd.

ridenfish39

I have the same problem when the temp is below 25 degrees. My 1-2 upshift can be a bit difficult, but I am not getting grinding. The 2-3 upshift is fine. I shift the car at 2k rpm until it gets warmed up, then everything is fine. The shifter does not pop out of gear. I have 84k on my car and no signs of clutch slippage.

audi_to_TL

iTrader: (2)

I am also having a similar problem but it happens when downshifting. I have no issues with the 3rd gear at all...shifting from 1 up to 6 no problems at all. But when cold..like below freezing sometimes I am unable to shift down to 2nd gear. I end up just leaving it in neutral and braking or going back to 3rd.

I am planning on the GM synchromesh cause my car is not under warranty...any ideas on what it could be??

Thanks

SouthernBoy

Do you double clutch on your downshifts?

fsttyms1

I agree with SouthernBoy and would say it sounds like a synchronizer issue.

audi_to_TL

iTrader: (2)

When downshifting I rev match the best I can....it doesn't seem to help though. It really seems to be linked to the outside temp.

Any idea why it would only be 2nd gear. I do have the comptech SS if that makes any difference.

Southernboy I have read many of your posts RE: manual shifting and I now use many of your shifting techniques...a wealth of knowledge..i hope my clutch will last for another 10 years.....Thanks

SouthernBoy

Thank you, sir. I am very pleased you found those posts useful.

Rev matching alone, while great for reducing clutch wear, doesn't complete the picture regarding syncho wear. You need to release the clutch a bit as you go through the neutral gate to spin up the input shaft and thereby match gear speeds to the lay shaft. This is what synchonizers do. The act like little clutches by matching shaft speeds so that the dog teeth can insert without effort or grinding. By double clutching, you will significantly reduce synchronizer wear and make your downshift so seemless, a passenger will not even notice a shift took place.