MugenR

Hey guys,

I contacted Shawn at Unorthodox Racing about a stock sized light weight crank pulley. He says if we can get 30 members interest he'll get production going on these and possibly a group buy.

This application will help people:

-With Supercharged vehicles
-With Sound Systems
-That don't want to underdrive, but want the gains of a lightweight crank pulley.

Shawn tells me that 85-90% of the power comes from the weight itself.

This is a very good option for people who don't want to underdrive.

If the Mods don't mind, This thread is only to get a feeler and hopefully 30 members chime in so we can get this made and on the market. If a group buy starts i'll make sure that Shawn get's on the forums.

Thanks,
-Andrew

I'll start:

1. MugenR
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4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
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Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

Andrew, if you get 30 guys then I will get the GB together and get Shawn to get the product developed and then give you a GB price. Last time someone wanted to organize a GB on the forums for a UR product Shawn told me to take care of it. So let me know.

MugenR

awesome, I was hoping you would chime in Thanks Excelerate

come on guys, lets make this happen!

Black_05_TL_6SP

What about the possibility of doing a stock size replacement for the Alternator and the power steering pump?? I would like to have those done in a polish. I haven't check to see if something they have is able to be crossed over. I had the underdrive pulley, PS pulley and the alternator pulley done on my Prelude. I really like the look of them over the stock.

Jason

blktl1

I will be in for a stock diameter Crank pulley!

Kennedy

iTrader: (2)

I read that the UR crank pulley is the LEAST underdriven(like 6-8%) of the underdriving system.... an MOST of the freed HP is derived from the lighter pulley... and thus, the very minor underdriving of ONLY the crank pulley is non impacting to stereo/AC systems. (except in extreme cases where the voltage system should be beefed initially).

Would it be more cost effective to develop a 10% smaller SC pulley to keep the SC rpm's higher?

MugenR

I'm not trying to get the Crank pulley made to get more boost, I'm trying to get it made because when i had the UR underdrive pulley before the supercharge it made a dramatic difference in throttle response and the whole car just felt SO MUCH lighter (peppier would be the word).

JOES05tl

count me in, I'll be able to put my subs back in. I have the UR underdrive pulley already.

MugenR

Awesome, thats 3 people so far.. let's multiply that by 10


1. MugenR
2. blktl1
3. JOES05tl

MugenR

hmm.. just re-read what you wrote, i misunderstood.
It would be more beneficial to get a stock diam. pulley made instead of putting on the underdrive and compensating for it by getting a new SC pulley. I thought about that and talked to some shops and they all say.. keep the crank pulley at stock diam.
and only mess with the S/C pulley to upgrade boost levels.

lookinco

1. MugenR
2. blktl1
3. JOES05tl
4. lookinco

tmntmn

count me in this

lookinco

1. MugenR
2. blktl1
3. JOES05tl
4. lookinco
5. tmntmn

photopro30

Me too...

againstallodds1

You know Im in.

CleanCL

iTrader: (4)

imo, i think this is a great mod, i have it on my CL. nothing like 10hp/10tq throughout the powerband. i think the TLs might actually see more.

lookinco

1. MugenR
2. blktl1
3. JOES05tl
4. lookinco
5. tmntmn
6. photopro30
7. againstallodds1

bklynpanman

I'm in.. did you even have to ask? like againstallodds.. I'll take the power any way I can get it.

dan.....k

iTrader: (1)

Me too. Count me in!

NFLblitze1

if anyone already has the UR Crank Pulley and wants to sell me there original one ill be more than happy to buy it :-)

blktl1

Ill sell it to you when I get my charger! I am unsure when I am going to get it but it wil be within 2 weeks!

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

Crank me up for this one too.....put me on the list. Not supercharged yet and already have underdrive pulley...but would get it just to have on hand for when I get the supercharger.

lembowski

iTrader: (1)

What kind of price range are we looking at? I guess that would determine if I say yes or no......

jmbnova

Help a guy out... what would the advantages be for this pulley vice the underdrive pulley? I am just looking for something that gives me more power, I still have the stock stereo with just one simple 12 sub added. Nothing else aftermarket drawing power....

I have ordered the Underdrive pulley per the rec. on this site, but which one would be better? Thanks..

jmbnova

Help a guy out... what would the advantages be for this pulley vice the underdrive pulley? I am just looking for something that gives me more power, I still have the stock stereo with just one simple 12 sub added. Nothing else aftermarket drawing power....

I have ordered the Underdrive pulley per the rec. on this site, but which one would be better? (technical aspects...) Thanks..

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

If you have a supercharger...you should not underdrive....that is why the need for this pulley. If you underdrive a supercharged car...you rob boost. This allows the supercharged cars to benefit from the lighter weight pulley and not lose boost in the process.

My guess is....you dont have a supercharger...so underdrive is just fine for you.

jmbnova

Bingo, I don't have a SC... yet... I figure another year or so and I will get it but by then, I can get this other pulley or put the stock back on... Thanks for the info..

MugenR

I bought the Underdrive UR pulley for a little over 100 bucks last time, should be about same price.

MugenR

1. MugenR
2. blktl1
3. JOES05tl
4. lookinco
5. tmntmn
6. photopro30
7. againstallodds1
8. bklynpanman
9. dan.....k
10. MichaelBenz

againstallodds1

I would rather have a lighter pulley made with a dampener. That way we dont have to worry about crank bearings in the future. When I had the other UR pulley on, I worried more about the harmonic balancer than the AEM intake hydrolocking.

special-ed

it was my understanding that our cranks are internally balanced. no harmonic dampeners on our pulleys.

againstallodds1

I know my crank pulley had a dampener on it. I also heard the same, but when I got access to the pulley it looked like a harmonic balancer on it.

legionofdoom

Any potential warranty issues with this mod (other than the standard "if they can prove it caused the problem...")? Thanks.

Black_05_TL_6SP

Other then the fact that the vibration dampener is built into the crank pulley, not sure. If you went in because the window wasn't rolling up, no problem. But if you went in because the front seal was leaking or you had cylinder walk, yea, they may not want to cover you. If they could do one that had the vib control in a lightned pulley, then it would not cause any problems.

As far as balance on the motor, for the most part yes, but not as fine as balancing a motor. There is always going to be some vibration, and the pulley is there to absorb that. If you don't plan on keeping that car forever, then there won't be any problems, but long term, it may be an issue. There is no proof available for the 3rd gen TL, as it is to new. Its a performance vs longevity. I have done the underdrive pulley thing myself on a previous car and loved it.

Like I said, I would really like to see a powersteering pulley and a alternator pulley in a polished finish.

Jason

blktl1

I know what your talking about. That peice of rubber in their. From what I heard frm my friend thats a tech is that, The rubber is their for a noise reducer!

MugenR

check this out... this was posted by BTwix in another thread, but this should answer your questions.

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1272226

legionofdoom

Thanks for the detailed reply, Jason. What is "cylinder walk"? So by replacing the stock pulley with this one, I'm going to risk causing more vibration to the engine which could cause problems down the road? Sorry if I'm asking a n00b question...

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

Would agree....worth posting/pasting over too....here ya go...

(start paste - taken from a post at Honda - tech . com user name "innovation" 6-8-05)

The misconceptions and myths behind crank pulleys and dampers

For years I had the idea that dampers were a necessity burned into my head. The thought that our honda engines required a damper to control and or absorb torsional vibrations was something I was told and convinced of this by some of the big name and well known engine builders out there. Who was I to argue?


Something that I didnt take into consideration, a lot of these guys I was learning from have V8 backgrounds where dampers are an absolute requirement. Recently, I decided to look into this theory. I called ATI, Fluiamper and Unorthodox Racing and talked to each company a little about the benefits of each respective product. Each company was very informative and extremely helpful with any questions I had regarding their products.

Previous to my research on this topic, I had heard of the horrors of oil pump and bearing failure with underdrive crank pulleys. I searched web board archives for claims of these occurances and came up with something that suprised me. Each person who posted about potential oil pump or bearing failure due to the use of underdrive crank pulleys had never owned or run one themselves. In most cases, they didnt personally know anyone who had either. They were simply repeating what they had been accustom to hearing. Thats exactly what i had done as well. It kind of resembles the theory, or thought in which Columbus ended once and for all hundreds of years ago. "The world is square." Everyone believed the world was square at one time simply because highly respective individuals had said it was, claiming that if you went too far in one direction that you would fall off of the planet. This became an unwritten fact. Although it had never been proven, it became a common thought, therefor it was passed on from person to person. Well, a guy by the name of Christopher Columbus came along and ended all of that square nonsense. Hopefully with a few projects, tests and follow ups we can do the same with the myth of Honda inline four cylinders and harmonic dampers.

Everyone who has run or used an underdrive crank pulley has nothing but good things to say about them. Ive found some who have been running them for as long as 5 years with no problems what so ever.

The more I looked into it, the more interested I became in this subject. So much in fact, that I have aquired a complete set of underdrive pulleys from Unorthodox Racing to use in a project Article I am working on.

Here is a piece of information taken from the Unorthodox website for everyone to look over:

In regards to cranks and dampers:

People are getting their crank pulleys confused with the harmonic dampers found on some V6 / V8 engines. "Harmonic Balancer" is a term that is used loosely in the automotive industry. Technically, this type of device does not exist. The "balancer" part comes from engines that are externally balanced and have a counterweight cast into the damper, hence the merging of the two terms. None of the applications that we offer utilize a counterweight as part of the pulley as these engines are internally balanced.

The pulleys on most of the new import and smaller domestic engines have an elastomer (rubber ring) incorporated into the pulley that looks similar to a harmonic damper. The elastomer in the OEM pulley serves as an isolator, which is there to suppress natural vibration and noise from the engine itself, the A/C compressor, P/S pump, and alternator. This is what the manufacturers call NVH (Noise Vibration & Harshness) when referring to noticeable noise and vibration in the passenger compartment. It is important to note that in these applications, this elastomer is somewhat inadequate in size, as well as life span, to act as an effective torsional damper. If you look at the pulleys on some of the imports there is no rubber to be found at all. We have samples of these, mostly from Acura/Honda, Nissan, and 1.8L VW's, to mention a few. This is not to say that with our pulleys you will hear a ton of noise or feel more vibration from your engine compartment. Most who have installed and driven a vehicle with our pulleys will notice the engine actually feels smoother. This is a natural result of replacing the heavy steel crank pulley with a CNC-machined aluminum pulley. NVH is variable and unique to every car. NVH will increase with the installation of an aftermarket intake and/or exhaust, for example. Think of OEM intake systems in newer cars, they use baffles and resonators in the intake to quiet all the intake noise. Aftermarket intakes eliminate these resonators and create dramatic increases in engine noise from the throttle opening and closing. So to most tuners, certain types of NVH can make the driving experience more enjoyable.

The purpose of a traditional harmonic damper is to protect against crank failure from torsional movement. Also, a true damper is pressed on to the front of the crank, not just bolted on as with most of the application we are all familiar with. Dampers are not necessary on most modern engines because of the many advances in engine design and materials. One of the main factors is that motors have switched over to OHC cams. Other factors such as stroke, displacement, inline, V configurations, power output, etc., do determine when and how these harmonics and torsional movements occur.

In regards to oil pump failures:

Urban myths have been floating around about Honda oil pumps failing by using an Unorthodox Racing crank pulley/s. The real fact is that these OEM pumps have been failing with AND WITHOUT the use of our pulleys and before our crank pulley/s were available on the market. Also note that these failures are few and far in between.

The Acura/Honda oil pumps are excellent units, but there are a number of reasons for the failures that do occur.

Most of the oil pump failures have been in Acura/Honda B series 1.6/1.8L applications. The Mazda 1.6/1.8L applications have seen a few failures, as well as the new Ford Focus ZETEC in race vehicles. Again, note that on all these applications the oil pump failures have occurred on engines not using our pulley, using the stock crank pulley.

These pump failures can be linked to the following causes. These causes may act individually or in combination to cause the actual failures:

- The gears used in many pumps including those in the Honda B series engines and Mazda Miata engines are of a low-cost powdered metal composition. The factory uses this metal because of its acceptable cost-to-strength ratio. The problem is, these parts are not always deburred properly from the factory and when pushed to their limits can and do fail.

- Many times additional stress is added to the oil pump by using oil thicker than what is specified by the manufacturer. The oil pump and bearing clearances were not designed from the factory to push oil of higher viscosities. This extra stress on the gears, combined with the above mentioned poor deburring process, can attribute to oil pump failure or engine failure

- Another contributing factor to oil pump failures is the weak cast backing plate of the B16/B18 oil pumps. Simple inspection shows that when compared to an H22 oil pump, a screw is not present in a critical location of the plate in the B series pumps. Compound this with the use of a higher viscosity motor oil and poorly deburred pump components and you have the ingredients for an oil pump failure.

- This issue, specific to the Mazda 1.6/1.8L engines, involves the flex of the crankshaft and the lower half of the engine due to the additional stress of a forced induction system (such as a turbo or supercharger). The additional stress produced by forced induction causes flexing of both the block and the crankshaft between the front main bearing and the oil pump. This can also contribute to oil pump failure. Early Miatas were notorious for having crankshaft problems and later models suffered from problems as power is increased significantly.

- Lastly, any failure inside a motor, related to aging components or a poor engine rebuild, can cause the oil pump to fail. ANY particles passing through an oil pump design such as that used in the Honda B series engines will cause damage or failure.

Remember that oil pump failures happen regularly on engines using a factory crank pulley. To help combat these failures, a few steps should be taken to help prolong the life of your oil pump and engine:

- Unless building a race motor with race clearances in mind, you should always use an oil viscosity matching, or as close to the factory recommendations as possible.

- If using a factory oil pump, always have your oil pump components deburred properly. It is recommended you have a competent engine rebuilder handle this

- For those who run dedicated / extreme race vehicles we recommend using an external wet or dry sump oiling system. These systems are designed for the heavy abuse a race engine receives on the track. Remember, the stock oiling systems were designed for factory horsepower levels and can only handle a certain amount of power increase over that level - Lastly and most obvious, have a competent, trusted machine or performance shop rebuild your precious motor. It only takes one simple mistake to turn a costly engine rebuild into a doorstop

(end paste - taken from a post at Honda - tech . com user name "innovation")

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

This thread is about who wants a UR Ultra Sc crank pulley that does not underdrive the system like the current Ultra S crank pulley that most ppl. are using. You would get this pulley if you have a supercharger or a system over 600 watts RMS. This thread is not about "harmonic damper" and the theories behind it. That topic has been beat to death and has not been proven ever nor are the 04+ TL pulleys "harmonic dampers". Again this thread is here to gauge intereste so we can get a new pulley produced. Please create a new thread for your other questions.

MugenR

thanks!

he's right.. let's stay on topic. faster we get 30 ppl the faster this pulley will be produced