phee

iTrader: (5)

IHC I know what you are saying about trans holding more power being auto but you have to keep in mind that this is a Honda trans. Not an outsourced zf or something else.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

You realize I am talking about Kikazz right? Using that massive power in a populated area == badness.

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...=kikazz&page=6

Post #312

I hate cars

I really hope Bert has a trouble free experience and maybe he will. Just pointing out he might be going where no one has gone before even with the manual. It's too bad these cars aren't RWD where you can swap the converter out in an hour. I've literally done my on my lunch break.

Lol, very true.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I think Opel tore through at least a couple MT's with just the power of the supercharger so Bert might be the pioneer for the MT as well.

Taxes look good this year for a change so maybe I could do something as well. Thinking at least going to the next level of injectors this spring.

BostonSilverTypeS

Yes this is exactly what I am talking about!!! So I'm just wondering as a last resort just that at least!

I got what he was talking about and I was nowhere close to the power he is putting out!! In drive mode the car would seem like it is slipping and then shift and every so often it would disable VSA and give me lights out the waazoo!! ABS light, check engine light and trans would go into limp mode and only way to fix it would be to shut vehicle off and restart it.....Once I took all the lightweight TypeF out and put in the DW1 it all went away and has not happened since so hence I was trying to get your 64% mixture so next time I would not go over and have it happen again!! but yeah this would be a simple fix and should not cost that much , I mean even when IHC said that if it was indeed slipping that his fluid would be brown....so when Bert said his fluid was still red, it reminded of my situation as when I took the redline fluid out it was still RED and bright leading me to believe the trans itself was not slipping and the fluid was the culprit! I mean IMHO if this is not happening constantly and every time it shifts into 3rd then theres no way it could be slipping!! slipping is mechanical and once it is slipping it is not going to get better and not do it and then do it, slipping would not be a sporadic thing it would happen all the time and you would not be able to really pull like he is after it grabs or 30plus dyno runs!!

which I wonder if that could be the issue!!! as a last resort have Rodney throw DW1 in there a completely flush of typeF from trans and see what happens!!! and no I am not saying that DW1 is great stuff or better than Redline I just saying to see if running pure TypeF could eventually cuz this type of behaviour since it shift more aggressive and it seems to confuse the ecu when trying to shift!

[QUOTE=libert69;13512727]fluid is still pink and does not smell burnt. Did not have the chance to change the fluid before I left to look at the drain plug though.

I wish you had more time too cuz it would solve alot, but I understand the situation also, either way I applaud for heading as far as you did! Def opened alot of issues about 5at trans!



exactly what my was doing except it would happen during cruising as well the rpm jump before engaging in gear.....also at any point when doing this test were you in SS mode or always in D mode?

LMAOO off topic but funny post!!

Majofo

Never even heard of the joker.. so many dimwits in 3G now, I tend to stay away. Too bad about the ride but I'm glad nobody was hurt. I agree with IHC, you need to respect the power. Margin of error is so slim. I almost took out 3 bikers coming up I35 near San Antonio over a year back. It was night around 8PM and I was switching lanes from the left to the middle going around 75. I only saw a flick of light, so I corrected and stayed in my lane. Not even a second later 3 crotch rockets split through the middle going at least 120. It was their lucky night.



Haven't seen Opel around, hope he's doing well.

I hate cars

Agreed on both parts, that's why I spend most of my time locked up in the audio section but even over there there's a new thread about "which sub should I get" and how to hook it up every single freaking day and some aren't capable of understanding it anyway. Maybe offtopic is the way to go.

Also hope Opel is doing well too. I think he shared a lot of the same sentiments. I've emailed back and forth with him a few times but haven't heard from him in a while. Maybe I'll see how he's doing and if he wants to stop in. He'll probably like Bert's setup.

PS- Take your freaking Vegas trip a week early so I can buy you that beer I've been promising for the past 5 years. I'm going to see if I can hook up one of those Presidential suites at the Paris again but I'm getting old and no one is going to know me anymore.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Like Kn said, kikazz was at 560whp/500wtq. I know it was only for a month or 2 but ive seen the way that guy would drive and he beat on that car like no other. Mainly b.c he had no idea how to drive lol.

Not to mention Rodney was 500whp for something like 2ish years and 20,000 miles with no ill effects on the trans.

JandR's clutch has shown to be capable of putting all that power to ground. 560whp at 2000rpms is pretty crazy. Long term durability is still in question but tilton is top notch from what ive read.

Now, im not saying the 6spd is indestructible. But imo I believe it will hold up to what I want it to do. 500whp is still my number. Driving style still plays a huge role on longevity. Thats why I know the auto lasted so long for me. Roughly 1600$ for dog gears is still a much better number then the unknown amount of money it could take to have the auto handle those numbers.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

It is going to take some investors (people willing to pay and wait) to have that come to reality.

When Rodney was working on the turbo, I told my wife that I really want to get in on this because it could be a one time thing. She thought I was crazy to give someone that much money with no prior knowledge. Thankfully he turned out to be more than legit and along with Bert and HiSpeed's confidence in him that got us where we are today. The same thing needs to happen, even more so since time has passed and his family has grown.

I hear ya, enough said there.

He was a bit arrogant with seemingly more money than brains. But I think he helped Rodney get the funds needed to develop the clutch.

It happens all the time, people on phones or just not paying attention. Whenever I get on it and there are others around, I always make sure there's some place to bail in case they do something unexpected. In his case it was a telephone pole.

I hate cars

Sounds like you have a fighting chance of having a relatively trouble free setup. As you said, driving style makes a big difference. Some people break transmissions on stock power, some make them live at double stock power. Straight cut gears sound sooo nice, that would be awesome upgrade if gears were determined to be the weak link. However, I'm fairly certain it will be shaft flex or deflection.
Agreed. I always have a way out, a place to go if things go wrong. Other (bad) drivers are pretty predictable so I've always got a couple scenarios in my mind when coming up on people. The thing I realized quickly and I'm sure you have as well is people don't always anticipate a car capable of closing distance as fast as ours will so you have to keep that in consideration when they go to change lanes and a second ago you were way back there and all of a sudden you're right up on them by the time they decide to make a move. Most people flat out do not judge speed, only distance and they're not very good at that either. I learned with bikes as well, they always take off hard and get out in front of traffic. I used to pace them to see if they wanted to run. After a couple of them nearly changing lanes into me not expecting a car to be right there I either didn't do it or I made sure the front of my car was in plain sight in front of them.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I seem to remember Opel also mentioning deficiencies in the case/bearings as well. I doubt I'll ever have an issue (knock on wood) as I have no interest in going to the strip. Maybe if it's cheap enough, a run around New Jersey Motorsports Park when I am visiting family will be the extent of my beatings.

I'm pretty sure Bert will be back to Raceway Park so we'll see how banging through the gears in the quarter will do to the tranny.

Majofo

I wish I could, but I need to be there for race day and I'm not sure I'd survive until then if I landed a week earlier.





I'm always checking for driver inconsistency, a shift in their driving line, change in pace, even head movement. If I'm closing in to someone's blindspot, I check the driver for head movement then get past before they have a chance to do something stupid. It's not uncommon for me to drill the horn though. If I come up to traffic on the fwy, even though my lane might be clear I immediately slow it down. So many times, some jackass thinks.. hey a clear lane.. let me just ease in, that guy coming up must be doing 15. I saw a near miss just a couple days ago, same scenario. Some people shouldn't be allowed to drive.. and by some I mean most.

TheChamp531

iTrader: (3)

Agreed on everything.

So many idiots on I35 especially near the San Marcos area.

3G is a hit or miss. I tend to post random stuff now to waste some of my time. Ramblings is too randommm

Skier4lyfe303

iTrader: (32)

Rodney, Im assuming the gears you are refering to are the Dog gears, correct? Also, is this $1600 price point everyone is talking about all 6 gears and when can these be made? Im having drive shaft shop (the 1000 whp axles from above) build me a set of axles, so tranny is the weak link.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Whats the price on those axles? Theres nothing listed on there site for the TL

Skier4lyfe303

iTrader: (32)

The price on my bill was $855 from Speed Image.

spade0698

I'm game libert if we are doing group buy....

libert69

iTrader: (7)

are these axles made by speed image? I thought you were buying custom axles from Drive Shaft Shop. I know the drive shaft shop was the place that rodney was talking about when he made the post regarding axles

http://www.driveshaftshop.com/

it will probably take more then 2 people to do a GB. I dont want anymore down time then its already been. I could see myself getting axles in the future but not right now. For the street, oem axles will hold fine. Track days on the other hand is a different story.

Skier4lyfe303

iTrader: (32)

No they are made my DSS, I was just billed thru Speed Image and not DSS (so Im not sure the exact price they will charge). As for a group buy on these, I think they would want everyone with the same tranny (i.e. base manual, Type S manual, or base auto). Yeah, I wasnt too worried about the OEM breaking on the street but on the strip, dropping from 4K, I could see them snapping at the line.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

855$ for a set of axles that they say will "supposedly" hold up to 1000hp is not bad.

Do they come with some kind of warranty?

I hate cars

I fully agreee with that statement. Traction and clutch engagement alone will determine axle stress. A turbo TL and stock TL will put the same peak stress on the axles assuming the same tires but the turbo version will have a higher average stress. Looking forward to this. Thats some serious money though. Have you guys checked to see if theres another OEM axle like an RL that might be slightly stronger?

Skier4lyfe303

iTrader: (32)

Here is the link on the warranty:
http://www.driveshaftshop.com/warranty-policy

Its a one year warranty.

flexer

IHC help me with something. By changing out the spring in the auto transmission that just changes the rate that the pressure comes on. Meaning it won't cause the MAX line pressure to increase, just the pressure to increase at lower RPM before it maxes out.

Am I understanding that right?

And if that is right, how do you increase the total MAX line pressure? And how much can you usually increase pressure by?

And are the downsides from increasing max line pressure just that shifts are harder?

Really I guess I am asking you to go into more detail on the subject of line pressure with auto's.

JR

Forcefed 3

logs?

I hate cars

It will give a quicker ramp up to max pressure greatly needed for the turbo's much different powerband and it *should* give a higher max pressure but I'm not completely sure about that.

Every auto has a pressure regulator. If this is not it, there is one somewhere. A stiffer spring in the pressure regulator would be the cure.

Downsides are mostly harder shifts. If you have a high stall converter they won't be noticeable at part throttle. Running high line pressure all the time can accelerate pump wear but usually there's no change. I wish I could say for sure what would happen with the TL but this is new territory.

There are all kinds of things that can happen with very high max line pressure but it's transmission specific. Some would split the case, some would knock the lug off of the band, some would crack the sun shell, etc. Most of the failures from high line pressure were all out race units really pushing the limits. If you increased the max pressure from say 160psi to 200psi you will most likely be fine.

I have the write up of the biggest builder for the 200-4R in the GNs. It was literally trial and error. Break something, fix it and run it until you break the next weak link. It was a grueling process and I'm surprised he stuck with it but in the end, I now have a trans from him that holds up to the power and actually lasts a decent amount of time.

That brings me to the other part, at high power even if everything is working fine, no slippage, shift timing is good, you will still wear everything out quicker than normal. When I wasn't breaking stuff, I was still throwing a set of clutches and a band in my trans once a year when I used to go to the track a lot.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

With the new motor I am not using meth right now. Rodneys tuner is not a meth guy and does not like to tune for meth. We had convo about what his views were and I understand his points. His biggest concern is the distribution problem that we get from the oem manifold. Anyone remember that manifold that some racing team designed for honda pilot I think? They posted in this thread somewhere stating there is uneven distribution of air once it hits the manifold.

I still love the idea of using meth for cooling, detonation and octane purposes. From the outside it sounds like a win/win but when implemented with the Tl's manifold, maybe its just not the greatest idea.

So this leaves us to direct port injection which potentially could be the greatest way to utilize meth with a boosted TL.

Im starting to read up on this now and this is something I would definitley do down the line. Especially since the whole meth system is already installed.

Opinions on direct port injection? (Cough IHC/Inaccurate cough)

Majofo

6 port injection, problem solved

Majofo

Where in the manifold would you put the nozzles though..

Any thoughts about a custom manifold like the Odyssey guys.

I hate cars

It's not needed. Assuming the meth enters the plenum evenly distributed, it's going to follow the air in the same ratio. If the manifold is distributing air unevenly, it should still keep the same ratio of meth. Less air=less meth.

The tuner's reasoning is ok if you were tuning for that last ounce of hp, leaning it out and running it on the edge of detonation. In this case the distribution needs to be fixed regardless of whether meth is used but even more if meth is not used.

As you know, the 02 sensors see an average of the 3 cylinders, not each one individually so you can definitely have a lean one and two rich ones in there. Meth gives you a safety cushion. The great thing is it will barely make a dent in power if one cylinder is running richer than the others so you have a large margin for error in tuning it.

Regardless of distribution, the meth will greatly cool the intake charge after the intecooler, and it will still give you more octane.

What it comes down to with port injection is you will still be left with an uneven distribution of air but meth distribution will be even along with gasoline distribution which isn't a great thing. With the throttlebody injection of meth, at least the lean cylinders will get a little more meth.

Depending on where the problem is with the intake, usually adding more plenum volume is an easy fix to distribution problems. Having someone fab up a sheet metal upper plenum is not that expensive and it should greatly help distribution.

FWIW, the GN is well known to run lean on the rear two cylinders. Meth is considered much more important on the stock manifold cars than the aftermarket manifolds that solve this issue. You get more air to the rear cylinders so you get more meth as well.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

My first thought was modifying the runners and adding 3 nozzles per runner (if thats even possible and is that the correct way to do it?)

Idk about a custom manifold. For my goals I dont think its the way to go. I just like the idea of using meth but I want to use it in the most efficient way possible.

Uneven distribution is not the tuners only concern. He was talking for while about things that made no sense to me lol. If only he could post here it would be a great discussion for you guys.

Unfortunately we never tore down my old motor yet to examine it. But if the manifold is indeed not providing even air distribution, I would think we would see signs of heat on those cylinders.

Personally, I never liked the idea of tuning for meth (but Im obviously no pro). I liked adding the meth into the mix after the tune was basically done. Dropping a few a/f points is no big deal after adding the meth and you get all those benefits (cooling, knock resistance etc). Plus your not relying on the meth as your fuel source. Yea...there are a few fail-safes that you can incorporate into your setup to protect your motor if your meth system fails when tuning for meth etc. But this just complicates things imo

If the direct port method is not the best method of utilizing meth for the TL, then I would probably modify my dual nozzle setup positioned rather close to the IM. I would use a single small single nozzle on the elbow of the intake pipe after the car is already tuned. A small enough nozzle that would only drop the a/f by .2 - .4

But a direct port setup with SS lines looks mighty sexy lol

Inaccurate

Bert,

First and foremost, please follow what IHC says, not me, because the man has extensive first-hand experience with this stuff. But, I wanted to reply since you did specifically asked for my input.

My thoughts are still the same as we covered on page 94 of this thread. Please see page 94, starting with post #3750 to #3755. Also, please check this link below from AlcoholInjectionSystems.com

I would stress for you to use pure methanol with absolutely no water added. The pure meth will flash/evaporate much quicker than a meth/water mixture. The quick evaporation is important to even distribution because the flashed meth vapor WILL follow the airstream whereas any liquid could experience drop-out (leading to uneven distribution).

Where Do I Position My Water Injection Nozzles (click here)

I hate cars

If you're interested, I have access to a flow bench and I should be able to get a significant discount, probably under $100 to flow the intake manifold and determine which cylinders are the problem cylinders. I'll pay return shipping.

If you plan to keep it mild and not push it to the limits you should be ok depending on how uneven the distribution is.

I hear you on not wanting to rely on the meth as a fuel source. I throw the idea out there for people but I understand the problems if the meth fails. I literally have a wall in my parents' garage of blown headgaskets and my father has another wall just a little smaller than mine. It does make some awesome power and charge temps fall waaay below ambient. Luckily in my car the headgasket is the fuse in the system. The TLs don't really blow headgaskets.

Of course, the knock sensor has the final say. If there's no knock chances are slim to none that you're going to hurt anything.

I hate cars

100% agree. And the meth following the air is exactly what you want. If it's a lean cylinder it gets more meth. Rich gets less meth. His tuner might have been talking about drop out which should not be an issue with pure meth as you suggested.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

Regarding my built motor (forged 9:1 pistons, pauter rods, STOCK sleeves)...since im going 6mt now, I can hopefully reach the full potential of this motor. With that said, Rodneys tuner "suggested" not to go way over 500whp b/c the j32 block does not have those little oil squirters like the j35 does (if you remember Kikazz's TL, 560whp type-s). The tuner was concerned about cylinder temps since I dont have those oil squirters. Im not sure how much power I want for a DD, but my goal of 500whp was always limited to the auto trans. With the 6mt, I think I want that number higher.

My research suggests (not necessarily pertaining to the j32 block, but cast iron sleeves in general) that oil squirters are good for factory oem applications but once we start making serious power we do not want to use them. The squirters would provide uneven cooling and cooling cast iron too quickly could lead to huge problems like cracks etc.

One thread worth reading
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...rs-Yay-or-Nay&

I think this is another reason why meth injection would help me by lowering cylinder temps quite a bit.

Thoughts?

If meth would indeed help with cylinder temps, is pure meth still the best choice? Every forum has different opinions on whether or not 50/50 or pure meth cools more effectively. Im still leaning towards pure meth



100% meth = cooler intake air charge (BAT) & minimal affect on EGT
50/50 meth/h2o = cooler intake air charge (but not as much as 100% meth) & cooler exhaust gas temps (EGT)

libert69

iTrader: (7)

some info i took from another forum

Gasoline takes about 237 KJ/L to vaporize.

Methanol takes about 879 KJ/L to vaporize.

Water takes about 2260 KJ/L to vaporize.


So Methanol absorbs 3.7x as much heat per unit volume as gas to vaporize and water takes 9.5x as much heat per unit volume as gas to vaporize.

You can also run the numbers and see that a 70% meth / 30% water mix would absorb almost 50% more heat than straight meth per unit volume.

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

Interesting info, I am running the meth nozzle in the up bend right after the intercooler in hopes the mixure will evaporate more evenly and not freeze the IAT sensor. I have a few issues to iron out before getting the meth up and running. I going to try 50/50 at first and then try going to higher methanol concentrations.

I hate cars

Water can take more heat but the problem is meth flashes and cools almost instantly as soon as it comes out of the nozzle. Water takes MUCH longer so it does almost nothing to cool the charge air. Anything it does is done in the combustion chamber.

Unless you have a detonation problem, water does nothing but hurt power and it hurts spool as well since it does not burn. You said you don't want to rely solely on the meth for fuel (and I think that's smart) or to keep it from detonating. So, assuming meth is not needed to keep the car from detonating, what is the point of having water in it? Water can only help prevent detonation but it will cost you power unless you turn the boost up to take advantage of the detonation resistance which would go against your goal.

Meth is a fuel, water puts the fire out. With 100% meth, you have a ton of space for A/F error. Run it too rich and you're barely going to see a power loss. Run a water/meth mix too rich and power will take a serious hit.

I have a TON of datalogging, many years worth of turbo outlet temps, pre and post intercooler temps, post intercooler with and without methanol and some weird ones that I tried with less than great results like spraying pre-intercooler or pre-turbo.

With pure meth you can get post intercooler temps quite a bit below ambient. With a mix you can't spray enough meth to get the temps really low. With pure water I saw very little change in intake temps.

So basically:

Meth= cooler intake charge and 130 octane

Water= cooler combustion temps and zero octane

If you wanted to actually cool the pistons a little, water injection would work but it's totally unnecessary.


Oil squirters:

Never a bad idea as long as oil pressure is ok and if they came there from the factory, you can bet oil pressure is fine.

Combustion temps, cylinder temps, and piston temps are two very different things. The tune has much more of an effect on combustion temps than power level and oil squirters have zero influence.

With your forged pistons, assuming proper clearances (I run .003 with a 4" bore) squirters are not needed at all but would not hurt either. You're going to be making around 100hp per cylinder which is fantastic. However, it's not *that* much in the grand scheme of things and there are plenty cars out there without squirters making more power and being run hard.

I would not even consider limiting power based on the presence of oil squirters. I also do not agree with most of Supraforums that they can hurt anything at all. Be careful who you listen to, I saw a ton of opinions presented as facts over there.

Squrters are squirting 220F to 280F oil onto the bottom of the piston with maybe some overspray hitting the cylinders. The piston in that area might be running 50-70 degrees hotter than the oil but the piston temp varies greatly between the crown, skirt, etc already. If the jets are in the block or in the rod, it's basically a continuous spray, not a pulse so you're not going to get this sudden shock of freezing oil hitting the super hot cylinders out of the blue. You have water (jackets) surrounding the outside of the cylinders at 160-200F. There is no way in hell a 220F spray of oil hitting a 200F cast iron cylinder can cause any sort of problems. Cylinder temps already vary a lot from top to bottom. I have the bottom half of my cylinders filled in with hard block to add strength. The bottom part naturally runs cold enough that no water is needed.

The crown and top ring are the hottest areas and oil jets or not will not make a difference in this area, only tune will.

If my car came with squirters I would not delete them no matter what power level I was at unless oil pressure became an issue. But on the flip side, with forged pistons, correct clearances, and a good tune, the presence of oil squirters should not factor in on where to limit power.

Here's mine right before it went in the car years ago, I did something a little special in regards to oiling, can anyone spot it? Notice the stock cast crank and rods...

libert69

iTrader: (7)

If cylinder temps are a concern, then wouldnt water be the better option since your saying water does all of its work in the combustion chamber?

Heres my opinion regarding power and spool in my setup. Im not trying to squeeze every last hp out of this motor and find its breaking point. We have heard the stories of cylinder walk on these motors (basically from one person) and I dont want to find out where thats going to happen with me. However, 550ish whp im totally comfortable with and its what we believe is within the realm of this motor's capabilities. If spraying some water is going to rob a little bit of power BUT cool the combustion chamber significantly, then I can live with that

Regarding spool...Since the auto trans is bye bye, reaching full boost at a much earlier rpm is not much of concern anymore. We always felt that the auto trans needed to be baby'd b/c if we made too much torque in the low rpms we would break something, and we did. Not enough line pressure to hold those clutch packs in the low rpms when the torque spiked caused slippage. In my car, we had the wastegate open up very fast b.c we didnt want all that torque down low.

The mt is totally different. If you remember kikazz's type-s, that car made almost 500whp right around 2700-3000rpms and was making a good amount of boost by 1900rpms. He wasnt running meth but as you can see, spool was very fast. Putting all that power to the ground at such a low rpm has everything to do with twin disk tilton clutch though (which im getting)

Now, spray a little water (and meth) in his setup and maybe those numbers jump up a few hundred rpms and spool is a tad slower. IMO, its still a beast of a car and not much has changed.

Remember, Im not trying to build a car that is reaching its maximum efficiency in every aspect in order to be the fastest. We are only running 18° of timing and do not need to advance more then that. Long term reliability is still one of my priorities and if sacrificing some power and spool to get that by running some water in the mix will get me there, then so be it (assuming water is the right way to go for my setup in lowering combustion temps)

Yes, I do not want to rely on meth as a fuel source. The car was knocking a little bit in the upper rpms of 3rd gear at 18°. Pulled 2° of timing and no more knock. There was also some knock in 4th gear and timing was retarded to remove it again. This was all with the auto but the motor will remain unchanged from auto to manual so there will be some knock with the manual. Maybe more since we are going to make more power with the manual.

I would rather have timing retarded a few degrees in the ecu's map then having to rely on meth for removing the knock. Reasons I mentioned a post or 2 ago. (Ex. meth failing)

To keep combustion temps and egts lower right?

Now this statement has me thinking. Rodneys tuner likes to tune on the side of caution. He tuned the car last time to 10.5-11.0 max a/f full and part throttle. Kikazz's type-s was tuned a little richer then that also. Since he doesnt tune for meth, if i throw a decent size nozzle on the car running pure meth, my a/f will likely drop to low 10s but wont hurt power like you say. If the same scenerio applies but with water in the mix instead of pure meth, power would suffer


So this statement is what keeps my thoughts going in complete circles. You listed what water and meth ultimately produce when used....

I will have a tune that is setup to run rather rich (10.5ish) with no knock (from retarding timing) on pump gas WITHOUT using meth.

If I want to get the benefits of both water and meth, then isnt a 50/50 mix ideal???? God my head hurts...maybe I just dont get it yet LOL

excellent info on the oil squirters. I know rodneys tuner is a very cautious individual. After every pull on the dyno he was explaining to me what exactly was going on and where we were headed. Once the first sign of slippage showed up on the dyno with the auto, he cautioned me about continuing forward. No tuner wants to break something thats not theirs. I can fully respect that.

More then likely he's just warning me that there may be excessive heat without the squirters but wants to make sure I understand the risk before going forward.

At this point, my hp goals are still unchanged but always looking for ways to improve. Ill have the tuner do what he needs to do in order to make the power that I want without the meth. After we have a solid tune, ill turn the meth, water/meth or whatever on for all those reasons listed but wont change the tune around.
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More meth stuff

Snow meth kit has a progressive controller. When I first had the meth kit hooked up, I was only running about 10psi. meth would start spraying around 4 psi and reach 100% spray by 8 psi. I think this was a waste of meth to start spraying so early tbh

We should be seeing anywhere from 17-20psi to make the power that I want now. Im thinking now I should start spraying around 10psi and max spray by 15psi (give or take a few psi based on max boost)

I havent read any info that suggests one way is better then the other. Many people just seem to just set their controller however they seem fit without basing it off a proven way to spray based on psi.

Is there any info that suggests one way is better then the other?

I hate cars

I don't know why but this thread didn't pop up when you first replied.

Combustion temps aren't really a "concern". Reducing the charge temps via meth will reduce the cylinder/combustion temps somewhat but the biggest influence is tune, namely A/F. As long as EGTs are in the safe zone, you're probably good.

I totally understand. However, you have to ask yourself why you're wanting to cool the combustion chamber. You also NEED high enough EGTs to spool the turbo reasonably fast. Exhaust flow by itself without the expansion and heat will not spool a turbo. That's why those rear mounted turbo systems don't work well on anything but a large V8.
There are two things to shoot for. You want boost to kick in at a reasonable rpm and you want great transient response.

It's best to have the ability to spool the turbo very quickly and back it off via the EBC than to mechanically hinder spool.
Kind of what I was getting at above. Having it spool at a low rpm is good. But having good transient response is just as important if not more important for a street car. This is how quickly the turbo reacts from no boost to full boost which is a little different from the lowest rpm it will spool at. It can also be seen in spirited driving when you're short shifting but you're getting into boost. Will power be very linear and smooth or will it be on or off. Having good transient response can be the difference in winning or losing when someone pulls up next to you and catches you off guard. It also gives the car the feeling of being more torquey and lighter. You will make more power under the curve which is everything in a good street car.[/quote]

I agree with not building a car that's at it's limit an on the edge of detonation and reliability. But again, what do you gain by lowering combustion temps? It can help with detonation but it's not the only or best way and heat is only one factor. Cylinder pressure is the other factor and if you lower cylinder pressure, you lower power. Big cams are one way to limit detonation at lower to mid rpms by limiting cylinder pressure but that's for another day.
I completely understand not wanting to use meth as a supplemental fuel source. However, I don't see the issue in using meth to kill just a little knock at the top of 3rd and 4th gears. That's your personal preference and the way you're doing it is fine.

I kind of touched on it earlier but EGTs need to be in a certain range for spool and efficiency. Tune has the biggest impact on this, more than water and meth injection. There's nothing to gain from low EGTs. As long as you have proper piston to cylinder clearance, a good tune, a good oil, and the engine is not overheating, you don't have to worry about combustion temps.
That's great that he's cautious. I've seen some terrible tuners that thought nothing of blowing up stuff that wasn't theirs.

With that said, 10.5 is too rich and I'm not just talking power loss. You can actually cause other issues by being this rich with very little additional knock resistance. Will it have a measurable effect on engine life, probably not since you're not under boost often. 11.5 is a very safe goal. If that's not rich enough to prevent knock, some other parameter needs to be changed besides the AF ratio.

For what it's worth, when I tune for "kill" on race gas I run it as lean as 12.5-13.0:1. It's obviously got a lot of octane and it's only for 9-10 seconds but it's not that uncommon to run a 13:1 AF on race gas without hurting anything for very short runs. Obviously not something you would want to do.
I think running water in the mix is redundant. Meth will do most of it's cooling in the intake tract and a cooler charge will mean slightly cooler combustion temps even though that's not a concern. If you're already tuning to have no knock without the meth/water, water is just hurting power for no good reason. Meth will not only give you that safety cushion but it will add power with the additional charge air cooling.

One of the things I like most about straight meth is it makes the difference between summer and winter almost non existent. Water meth will do the same but not to the same extent.

Sounds like a great tuner, like I've said, I've watched some tuners that seemed like they were trying to break a customer's car.
I would probably give the same warning as well.
You have to try a couple different scenarios.

One is daily driving. Drive it with just enough throttle to get the meth to trigger. Make sure it does not try and bog the engine at a steady state throttle at it's turn on psi.

Another is racing mode. Start with the rpms up there for quick spool and punch it to the floor and make sure the meth gets there in time to prevent transitional knock.

The turn on point will have to be a few psi below the detonation threshold to account for meth lag time and to give it a safety margin. It's also not a bad idea to have it come on a little early to cool everything off right before you go full throttle. This is where you get a lot more flexibility over a 50-50 mix.

If you truly have a tune that does not knock on straight premium fuel, have the meth come in a little later for the spool benefits.

Some of it will be determined by your driving habits as well. As long as there's no knock and no bogging down, there's a ton of room for tuning for personal preference.

I'm in no way trying to step on anyone's toes, there's always more than one way to do things and you guys are doing great. I have my ways but that doesn't mean they're the only way. The only thing I don't like is the A/F ratio.

I swear I'm going to eventually sit down when I'm not so tired and throw something better together. The past few weeks have been so hectic that it's hard to stay awake when I'm sitting still.

Keep up the good work, I can't wait to see this thing in action and I know you guys will pull it all together and have the fastest (and reliable) TL out there.

libert69

iTrader: (7)

The reason i started thinking about combustion temps was based of what the tuner said. (no oil squirters and more hp = too much heat). But, i do know that he is very cautious. Thats what got me thinking about using water since it can soak up more heat then just meth.

I hate working with unknowns. So first things first. Im installing a egt gauge to get this ball rolling. Then we can really see if heat is an issue. Plus, this will give me a great opportunity to make a few logs and experiment with a few different mixtures of water/meth to find a happy percentage. But in the end Ill probably wind up with 100% meth again lol


i agree neck snapping torque in the low rpms is so much fun, plus it gets you moving so damn quick

All the talk about combustion temps and too much heat are all speculation anyway at this point. We, or just me for that matter, was assuming no oil squirters would create to much heat and lowering temps with the use of some water would make a more efficient and reliable motor. But we dont have any proof of excessive heat yet.

A/f is not something that im really going to have control over. From the handful of different tuners Ive ever come across and talked with, each one has their own magic number they like to shoot for. Even though it is my car, trying to tell a tuner we are running too rich is almost insulting to them lol. Heres a good reason why running 100% meth with a rich tune is better then using water.

On the other hand, doesnt a rich tune (10s) provide better cooling also?


Now this I can relate too. 100% meth in the summer heat with humidity made the car feel and respond just like cold day in winter. Although, when I was experimenting with different percentages, I couldnt tell the difference in the way the car felt regardless of weather. But any mix of water/meth in the summer will feel so much better then nothing at all



After I pick up the car and head home, I pass right by englishtown raceway in NJ. Might be tempted to stop for a run lol