I hate cars

It became a flamewar when you jumped in. Me an eg94! were having a discussion on opposite sides (actually the same side with different preferences). We were on topic until you posted with turbo vs supercharger, BMW vs Acura and the sounds they make crap, though it's awesome you compare the sound of a turbo 4 to a NA 6 lol. It couldn't possibly be the number of cylinders that contribute to the different sound.

I have a GN and I also have a TL. They're very different cars but the big difference here is I actually have experience on both sides I've driven many high winding cars and I've put a lot of miles on the Mercedes CL65AMG which makes nearly 1,000lbs of torque down low. I enjoy effortlessly leaving cars behind with the twin turbo V12 barely spinning 1,500rpm. How many high torque lower rpm cars have you owned or driven for any length of time?

I could care less what kind of sound you like or what your preference is. If you like buzzing around at high rpm and annoying everyone around you, that's fine. You're allowed to have bad taste.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

lmao!


just go get Drunk, M!
then you and majofo can help me with the rear end shimmy.

I hate cars

I don't care for the BOV because that's typical ricer stuff. I didn't run one for many years but as I went to a huge intercooler and long lengths of 3" plumbing it became necessary to prevent hurting the turbo. However, I love the sound of a good turbo setup.

If you like Pro Stock you might be interested in the only turbo car to ever run Pro Stock' a Buick V6 which they quickly banned once it started winning. 200 cubes vs 700+ cubes and that's back when turbo technology was nowhere near what it is today, I have no idea how they got that thing to spool.


http://www.gnttype.org/misc/ingersoll.html


I still have my project car, aka daily driver for the past 18 years. Mostly stock bottom end, extremely reliable, I even used it as a commuter for a while. A 600whp NA V6 would not have a chance in hell of being street legal or having any sort of manners.

I have to ask, what does your car run? You need something to qualify the statement with. I practically lived at the track and it wasn't those of us turbo guys running 10s on the factory engines that were blowing stuff up and oiling down the track, it was always the Hondas. They blew up all the time compared to those of us with the turbo cars. The turbo DSM guys and Supra guys never seemed to have a problem keeping it together either. There's a whole different set of concerns with high rpm vs high boost.
If 200hp, 8500rpm, and loud as hell is your thing, what can I say.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

I loved that video you posted. Good indication of new school though vs old school thought. Was a time capsule.

94eg!

Dunno....I don't race it. Magazines have hit as low as 14.2 in the stock Japanese R (I think), but my chassis is lighter. The R is still a lot faster than RS integra, and torque has NOTHING to do with it......so I'm not sure what your point is.

Yes turbo has more potential, yes v8's have more potential, still has nothing to do with "torque vs power".

94eg!

BTW: My anecdote was aimed at the guy getting beat up for not liking turbos. I'm already aware that track rats have no appreciation for all motor Hondas. Part of the reason I don't go to the drag strip to hang out anymore. I'm just not into dick waggers.

I hate cars

My car is a true street car and was a daily driver from '94 to '06. It's a street car that occasionally went to the track. Most guys stay away from the track because it tends to hurt peoples' feelings. People don't want to see what their car really runs and instead rely on subjective feelings. Me personally, I liked the competition and most importantly I like knowing how my car compares instead of going by my friends' impressions. With the current setup it should go high 9s in the mid to high 130s but I don't go around saying that because it has never done it. You can call it a track rat, you can call me a dick wagger but it doesn't change the facts. I commuted 210 miles with it, I had a pair of 12W6s in it, it's quiet, idles smooth, and has power everywhere. The fact is, my turbo car is MORE streetable than most all motor Hondas that make less power.

94eg!

Is that why 99+% of the population doesn't take their cars to the drag strip? And all this time I thought it was cause nobody cares how quick their car is.

BTW: It doesn't change any of the facts about power vs torque.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

You guys should just join forces like voltron...that would be more productive.

Matt, I'm currently quite jealous of the grand national. I can't imagine how awesome that must be to drive. One day, I'll own a RWD with some power. Turbo would be great.

Misc-ura

So i am not allowed to respond to the actual OP that the thread is about because you are having a tq vs hp battle? And not a single bit of sense was made that day. My reply on the thread was not meant for you it was meant for the person who started it. My post is what I believe would solve OP's problem and it reflects my opinion on turbos.

I hate cars

Let's get real. If you don't take your car to the track then you can make any claims you want. You can talk about how quick your friends say it is or how you beat a certain car in a street race despite the conditions of the race. You can say what it should run. You can compare your car to others with similar setups. You can use ricer math such as my car beat a Mustang by 5 car lengths (estimated by the driver lol) and a Corvette only beats a Mustang by 4 car lengths, therefore my car is quicker than a Vette. The possibilities are endless.

You might be right, 1% of people take their cars to the track but maybe 2% of the population are even into performance. Most of the people I know have been to the track at least once with each car they've owned. I went a lot in the late '90s and early '00s because it was a special time for these cars when I could literally beat up on trailer cars and go cruising the streets after. Street cars have gotten a lot quicker these days and my car hasn't seen the track in 5 years or more. Before dynos were common the track was a tuning tool and before the internet was real big and you didn't have people doing all of the work for you, you had to try new things and measure them at the track. It also got competitive at times which made it more fun. If competition means we're dick measuring, every sport is doing the same. I'm not sure why competition is seen as a bad thing.

We've even taken the CL65 Mercedes to the track when it still had dealer plates and it was a blast but insecure people try and act as if the track is for dick measuring.

I don't care for the Honda crowd due to the behavior I've witnessed at the track and on the street, not because I don't understand their "technology". Everyone knows you can make lots of hp with decent torque and lots of rpm. Ford did it with their SOHC 427 that made power just shy of 8,000rpm back in the '60s and also their Boss 302. There's the original ZR1 Corvette DOHC 5.7L that revved to 7,500rpm. I drove a stock Pantera for a while with a bone stock 351C that I shifted regularly at 7,500rpm. Hell, even my father's built GN redlines at 8,500rpm and makes power to 7,500rpm. Honda did not invent this stuff and anyone who has been around for a while knows their options and usually chooses a different route for a car that's primarily street driven.

You have:

Big engine
Forced induction
High rpm small engines

All 3 can make plenty of power but the first 2 are going to be more drivable and less temperamental on the street due to their power delivery. Me personally, I would do a high rpm big engine with boost.

Everything that needs to be said about power and torque has been said. What you seem to have missed is that I have agreed with you *under racing conditions in a race car with optimized gearing and launch and on paper*. Real life needs torque and power under the curve because gearing and conditions are far from perfect and let's face it, the 5at TL is not exactly quick off the line due to the lack of "power" down low. I'm a bit disappointed that you stooped to calling me a track rat and a "dick wagger" because I've taken my street car and once daily driver to the track that in all likelihood is much more streetable than your 14 second Civic. You don't see me calling you a bitch for not taking your car to the track so I expect you to return the favor.

Not that mags have a lot of credit but you've probably seen the top gear acceleration tests in 10mph increments. Guess what that tells you about the car and why it's important.

I hate cars

Misc-ura's reply below was clearly targeted at me. Misc-ura talking about me in the 3rd person does not change a thing. Are we grownups or is Misc-ura going to play this game? No one asked Misc-ura his incredibly ignorant and biased view on turbos. So Misc-ura doesn't like them for the sound, great. That does not change the fact that it would greatly help the Tl off the line and everywhere else. So I don't know why Misc-ura is talking about the sound.

Misc-ura

I mean the initial post about a supercharged TL that you called me ignorant for posting. You picked a fight with me because I have a different opinion than you on turbos. The logic is strong with this one.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

He has 15K posts and is almost at the end of his rope with helping people on this forum. Back off, it would be a much bigger travesty to lose him. Nothing but ego's talking now...

J.

I hate cars

The above is your first post in this thread. So the bold is you helping the OP out? It looks like a bunch of anti Acura, anti turbo opinion.... and that's fine I guess, you can have an opinion but it's not really helpful. Then you go on to turn the thread into your own turbo vs supercharger battle and compare a 335 to a supercharged TL which could not be anymore irrelevant. This whole thread is crap but how do you think you were helping the OP again?
Quote the right one next time.

I hate cars

Thanks. It's ok, I'm just unwinding after a hot day at work. Not even a little upset. I'm disappointed in some very knowledgeable members that I agree with 99.9% of the time but I'm sure it will be fine. I'll be gone for the next few days anyway so everyone will have time to cool off.

I hate cars

It's important to note that any mods suggested early on in this thread that would have brought more low end torque would have brought low end power up as well so we were on track and headed in the right direction for a while.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

LOL...you know I got your back, bud. I remember when you said you were going to disappear last year. Plus, having dealt with you directly and knowing you're a great guy, it kinda annoys me when people come at you like that. I know you're not the sugarcoating type but the majority of your "dickishness" (if you will) is from having to retype the same shit over and over again.

Misc-ura

Don't get me wrong I hate cars I respect a turbo I just simply do not like them which is why I prefer superchargers. I actually prefer n/a to both but it is much more expensive to get power out them than with F/I. I feel that the mention of a 335 is justified because the initial post was that of a 328. Mentioning its big brother does not seem out of line at least to me. I only got into an argument in the first place because it seems to me that you disliked my opinion of turbos and undermined my contribution to OPs cause. Lets just agree to disagree this is pointless I just do not like to be disrespected like with the IQ jab which was completely uncalled for just because I have a different opinion than you.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

^^^I bet part of that reaction he gave stems from the last 2 or 3 decades of crap him and his Dad probably got for showing up everywhere with 6 cyl turbos instead of big V8's. If you didn't watch that vid he posted, you should...it was pretty cool.

I guess there really are some replacements for displacement. That said, you obviously are entitled to not like turbo's...although I've found driving them exhilirating. It's almost like driving 2 different cars in one...a nice and tame car and a beast that you unleash with your foot.

94eg!

My bad! Apologies all around.

AtlM5

as far as an all out ridiculous horsepower dragster goes they use superchargers for a reason..I personally would build a turbo car all day over an s/c car but there are reasons to go with the supercharger...especailly with a large single turbo, to get as much power as possible you are gonna have lag and the torque is not gonna come until full boost and then you may have to worry about traction issues. (I mean without nitrous for the spool) Im just trying to play a little devils advocate here. I would take the 0 loss of a turbo all day long.

I hate cars

Same here.

I hate cars

Top Fuel is limited to superchargers by the rules. There was a time when teams were starting development on the turbo route which showed immense potential but they were quickly banned. You get an instant 600hp bump from not driving the blower along with cooler charge temps (not a huge problem because the amount of fuel being dumped cools extremely well). A guy I used to work for was on a Top Fuel team many years ago and still does some work for them. A Top Fueler can't be throttled, it's either idle or full throttle and clutch takeup is a huge factor in putting the power down vs smoking the tires. With the turbos they were dialing in lag instead of slipping the clutch so much.

Today, there's just very, very little lag unless you're talking about an extreme such as a 1.6L making 800hp. There will be some lag but technology has come so far. Just to make 500hp in the '90s I had to use nitrous to spool it that was shut off by a hobbs switch when it hit 10psi. Today the little 3.0 in the 335 spools the turbos very quickly. The twin turbo V12 feels naturally aspirated boost is so quick and linear.

The type of supercharger has to be considered.

Centrifugal- basically a belt powered turbo. It's the definition of lag because it never hits full boost until you're at redline. Boost builds proportional to rpm at full throttle. The advantage is a cooler charge temp and usually less power required to spin it. They are much more efficient at high boost.

Roots/screw- Have the potential for instant power but are usually used in low boost applications and heat the crap out of the air. Intercooling is a little more difficult but can be done. There are some exceptions, I believe Top Fuel is running between 50-60psi but I can't remember for sure.

Turbo generally delivers cooler charge air, is the most efficient at higher boost levels, and when sized correctly will start showing increased power just off of idle.

There are times when you want to use a supercharger especially if your car is already powerful and you don't want the hassle of the additional installation issues. Power delivery *can* be more linear. The centrifugal is the laggiest super/turbo charger out there but by being laggy, it's also linear.

You see more and more OEMs going the turbo route because you can downsize an engine for mpg and throw a turbo on it to bring power back up to an acceptable level. Since there's no drag on the engine, there's no mpg hit there.

If anyone is curious, here's what my old boss did by thinking outside of the box with a twin turbo 355" dragster back in '92. This is a list of top methanol dragsters. Look for Bill Standridge from 1992. This was the only turbo dragster and it was running the smallest engine that I'm aware of with only 355". It never made a full pass, the chassis was not up for that kind of power. It always ended up wrapping up the tires and he even tripped the lights with the rear tires a couple times. In the right chassis, it was a 5.6 second car. It did trap 228mph a few times but never ran better than a 6.2. Data logging showed it never made a pass without lifting off the throttle. The first time he took it to Famoso, the tech guy looked at it and said he had no idea what he was looking at and told him not to wreck it.

http://www.draglist.com/lists/ad.txt

Anyway, that car was a small piece of history as well. I wish I could find a picture of it but it was a rail dragster with two of the biggest turbos you've ever seen hanging off of each side above the tires. The turbos made the tires look small.

It was ahead of it's time and the turbos gave it a large advantage. It broke the driveshaft on the engine dyno at I believe 2,600hp so who knows what kind of power it was capable of.

This guy also consulted for the Buick turbo V6 Pro Stock car I linked earlier.

I know this is boring to most people and waaaaay off topic but it was kind of neat to be there during the evolution of turbocharging.

Nobles

i cant wait until i get my j pipe cai and the ct supercharger

lumyeinjun

iTrader: (1)

I love it when experienced American muscle guys battle it out with experienced b16/b18 builders. IHC and 94eg need to disagree more often! Great debate going on here.

sixsixfour

so this is where I hate cars was hiding these past few days

94eg!

Check out Honda/HPD V8 doing some lapping at VIR getting ready for the ALMS season. Limited to 3.4L (per rules) and something like 10k rpm. This car is kicking ass in ALMS so far. Coolest Honda around right now. There were 4 of them at the 24 hours of Le Mans this year (under other private team names), and they took the LMP2 category win.


Then I saw them race at Laguna Seca a little over a month ago (this team also has a PC car in this video with a spec push rod V8).

TheChamp531

iTrader: (3)

Mi TEeeeeeeL is fasta den awl ov yo caws sap

AcNoob

Someone mentioned a MDX spacer.. What is an MDX spacer?

MEKO

iTrader: (1)

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-performance-parts-modifications-112/factory-im-spacer-17108-rdj-a00-727819/

EvilVirus

iTrader: (8)

#70 smh

AcNoob

#70 smh?

vietxquangstah

iTrader: (7)

#73 smh

AcNoob

I am not down with the lingo? SMH?

d1sturb3d119

iTrader: (1)

Lightweight wheels and upgrade the pulley... Thats worked for me... J-pipe and mid muffler delete works well too... Mid muffler is more for the sound though...

Spike243

So much hate=SMH

I don't really understand what these guys want from new people to the forums. You search for a thread to answer your question so you post and get flamed for resurrecting old threads..... But god forbid you should post a new thread or you will get flamed worse.

I guess what I want to say is that not all current threads will answer everyone's questions properly. That is why people search forums, to get their questions answered. OK rant over

rossv1

I always thought SMH meant "shake my head" ?

AZP-TL

You guys are all doing it wrong. :gheylaugh: If you're looking for torque you want an electric car like the Tesla Model S, 100% torque 100% of the time, 0-60 in 4.0s. Or for those of you who must have noise, a Jaguar C-X75, electric motors on every wheel powered by twin micro turbines for a 0-60 of 3.3s.

callahan

^bc it does