FamilyGuy

flexer

That is the most modified TL in the world probably. Gerzand comes a close second. That build is a monster, right down to the REAL rally antilag system that car has and full stand alone ecu

94eg!

A 6MT base would be an 04-06 car (no 6MT base in 07-08). I thought Hondata doesn't have an ECU for 04-06 (or am I behind the times?).

FamilyGuy

07/08 ECU swap. There's an adapter kit for that now.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

if my accord v6 6mt has honda your 6mt TL can have Hondata also

fsttyms1

I have the 3.7 MDX cams, crank, rods, pistons all running on my J32A2 ECU, all run fine to the 7200 cutoff. She gets up and goes, and the tq never have to leave 6th (but yes, i need to get a tuning solution)

6spd-GERCO

Yup behind on the times

Hey neighbor That's right I completely overlooked your setup! Maybe the 2G has an ECU that is tuned more conservative? Maybe the half a point less compression allows more leeway? What did your static compression end up being?

Is the paint dry? I want a ride!

6spd-GERCO

That's good to hear Yes a lot of issues, plus with king doing the work it adds up quick. Their shop rate per hour is $$$, but their quality of work reflects the cost, they're pro's.

I would be interested to in seeing how the FWD SS drives lol, maybe some 22's or 24's would help with wheel spin

fsttyms1

Id have to look at the actual math numbers again but if memory serves me correctly, i believe it was around 11.4 :1 Id like to get it higher though(once i get a tuning solution, my dual throttle bodies on and long tubes made.
paint is still in the can, patiently waiting for my spray guns to spray it. im shooting for next weekend though

anx1300c

iTrader: (2)

It does create a big rev hang problem, but Flashpro completely resolves it. Heck, even the modded base map that comes with Flashpro got rid of my rev hang.

FamilyGuy

^^

You sure?

anx1300c

iTrader: (2)

I'm positive. I had rev hang from December 2012, when I installed the 3.7 manifold and TB until August 2014 when I installed the Flashpro. No problems since. If you go back into ILC's thread and look around 12/12, you'll see my initial complaints about the rev hang.

I do still have an occasional *very* mild throttle plate closed "buck", but positively no rev hang.

FamilyGuy

Sweet that you don't have the hang anymore, but you still haven't solved the problem 100%, which was rev hang AND bucking. Until we have a 100% solution that is repeatable for all 6mt's, it seems to be hit or miss.

Given the reports that it's hardly any better than a PnP at least on a type s's stock parts, it doesn't seem to be worth it either, since it's more expensive than a PnP. This may not apply to the 3.2L, idk.

Curious, did you adjust the idle set screw as part of your rev hang fix?

simione

iTrader: (2)

^^^. Definitely hit or miss. Never had ANY issues on my 3.0, 3.2 or 3.6. Guess I got lucky

anx1300c

iTrader: (2)

I didn't touch the idle set screw. It was all Flashpro.

I think there may some confusion as to exactly what "rev hang" is and maybe people are confusing it with the "bucking" which happens when one lets off the gas, effectively closing the throttle body plate. I never had the bucking too bad, and Flashpro did nothing to change that.

I believe it was ILCs who had it so bad it actually cracked one of his PCDs. I also wonder if having the TB bored by Maxbore plays a part in the bucking issue. If it's not a perfect seal with the new plate he fabs, then that could certainly cause it, and it makes sense that some could have it worse than others. Interestingly, I never had any bucking with the stock TB, which I had on there prior to the 3.7. Seems to be related to the larger TBs, so maybe it's not caused by having it bored.

One thing I will say, is I don't regret doing the whole setup one bit. The 3.2 definitely benefits from the whole setup; 4" intake, ZDX TB and TL SHAWD manifold, ported runners. In hindsight though, I probably wouldn't get the TB bored if I was doing it over.

6spd-GERCO

Yessss! Looks like I am going to pay you another visit soon!

Sunday May 17th...USAIR....

I am still trying to wrap my head around your car being able to run fine on the stock ECU... things going to be a monster when it's tuned.

simione

iTrader: (2)

Gotta love oem widebands. My j32a3 made 289/239 with bolt ons and type s cams. It's crazy

Sonnick

IMO, the 3.7 setup is well worth it. I had my stock manifold ported by P2R and still gained 15whp with the 3.7 setup.

FamilyGuy

You have a j30 right?

It's not worth it for me from what I've read around Azine, gains are equivalent to porting the stock parts on the j35a8.

Kinda sucks that Honda moved away from traditional exhaust ports on the heads to this single cast-in exhaust port. Does anyone know the flow comparison between a j35a8 and something like a j32a2 head, on the exhaust? The j32a2 has traditional headers.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

I posted a flow bench a while back 180-190 on the exhaust side stock. Pnp bring it closer to 200cfm.

FamilyGuy

Which heads are you talking about?

Damn PnP don't do much huh

Sonnick

I have a J30, yes. Isn't the J35a8 Magnesium as well? Or am I mistaken? Reason I ask is it's difficult to port and most people won't do it. I asked ASP if they would port my 3.7 and they said they don't port them. I'm still not sold that the ported Type S will have the same gains considering the large difference in the IM neck and TB, but I'm sure it's close and potentially wouldn't be worth it if you would have unwanted issues. But for the 3.0 and 3.2 it's definitely worth it, IMO, unless you can open the J32a2 manifold up to like 80mm and match a B series TB to it.

I'm not sure of numbers, but Jeff Evans uses ported J32a2 heads on his drag Integra, so I'm assuming they have the best potential for his purposes. There haven't been too many people who have ported heads on these cars, at least with documented results, but Ken posted one a few days ago. Would love to see back to back results on head porting though. Of course, the actual extent of gains will depend on your supporting mods also.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

FamilyGuy

Yes the j35a8 is magnesium. I forget which thread it was, one of the 3.7L ones, but IIRC the 3.7L vs PnP on a type s is only like 2-3hp diff, so not worth it considering the 3.7L swap is more expensive and also comes with headaches (rev hang + bucking), at least on the manuals. I don't think we have extensive data (dynos), so take this with a grain of salt. Even if the diff is a little greater, ~5hp isn't worth it if it means the car will run like shit IMO. It would be awesome if we had a properly tuned, no issues, repeatable dyno. Haven't seen one yet. If I had the $ to burn in R&D I'd give it a go, but I don't

Remember bigger isn't always better, and it's amazing that Evans is running a 102mm TB, but this is a custom race build, so only they know how they calculated shit. They also have a ported j32a2 head with headers, custom cams and a 14:1 CR.

Totally agree it all depends on supporting mods. People sometimes forget an engine is a system and focus too much on what each part gives by itself. Well, each part gives different results depending on supporting mods.

Are any others doing cast-in exhaust ports or is Honda the only one? After doing full bolt ons and a tune it's so hard to justify further NA work without considering a small turbo setup...esp for the j series, where its uncharted territory.

FamilyGuy

@ thisaznboi88

Ok so your graphs say it's a j30a4, stock vs PnP. That's good to see the PnP job, and amazing that the heads all flow about the same ~300-310cfm on the intake side between j30/32/35 after a PnP.

But what I'd like to see is exhaust flow between a j32a2 and a j35a8 (traditional exhaust ports vs cast-in single port). Would be nice to also have stock vs PnP numbers in this comparison.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

there exhaust flow also, but only for the j30a4. I have nothing for the j32a2, not my specialty

FamilyGuy

Is the j30a4 multi exhaust port or single?

Sonnick

Single. Same design as the J32a3 and J35a8. One of the ONLY differences between the J30a5 and the J32a3 is the 89mm bore. Only reason the compression is higher is because of the 86mm heads on the 89mm bore.

Sonnick

Don't listen to me....Simione corrected me in saying that the J32a3 pistons are more domed than the J30s, so the bore is not the only difference. Lol, my bad.

FamilyGuy

So the stock E/I ratio in the j30 above was 0.71, and after porting was 0.66. Would be so nice if someone who knew their stuff would design a proper setup between flow, valves, timing, CR and cams. If all j series heads flow about ~300 on the intake side, then maybe the single port exhaust isn't all that bad, since it can still hit a ~0.6-0.7 E/I ratio, no?

FamilyGuy

Any of you guys know anything about E/I ratios? Reading some stuff online, but some say 0.66 is ideal, while others say 0.72 is ideal, and then some say doesn't matter because you can adapt / compensate with the cam specs (exhaust duration in particular) and so on.

Interesting that aznboi88 was 0.71 stock and ended up at 0.66 PnP. So was that better or worse?


Ps: Gerzand did mine. It's really just a port match on the manifold, to the TB and runners, not a true port and polish, since the manifold wasn't opened up. You can open it up, but I don't know what the wall thickness is, so not sure if it's worth it. We could probably benefit more from a different manifold design altogether, but here again, who knows, there's no data to compare something like Gerzand's dual TB manifold design vs a larger version of the factory manifold with its dual stage butterfly design.

Sonnick

Yea I had mine gasket matched as well, which matched my ported runners.

Gerzand is definitely a good guy to send your parts to get ported

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

just and FYI those aren't my head flow benched. Just stuff i found while researching. Also the largest camshaft lift I saw were .450. .500 lobes will hit the bearing housing. So you can forget about using all 310CFM

FamilyGuy

Yea so most of the gains from a TB/IM/runners PnP are likely coming from the TB and runners (assuming you don't open up the IM, just port match it). Anything from the IM is likely not a gain per say, but a prevention of a loss from turbulence due to mismatched port sizes. Yay / nay?

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

I measured the outlet on the Mg IM and they are around ~42mm while the runners can be matched up to 45mm. This is coming from a TL-S and 07-08 base TL manifold




44mm runners



45.3 with cut gasket



gasket matched runner outlet


gasket matched intake port

fsttyms1

I should hopefully be there.

Runs great with it. But yes, i want it tuned. Especially once i get the dual TBs on it. It is starving for air with the 67mm tb

fsttyms1

Its not all about flow at the opening though. Header length can be tuned and sized for flow for your build, it also allows for better/different exhaust scavenging. Something that cant be done on the cast in manifold.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

^ like he said conventional exhaust manifold theory may not apply to our single port.

in addition exhaust from 1 cylinder could get sucked up by another cylinder due to the share outlet.

FamilyGuy

Yup but that's the hard part, the cost of j32a2 heads + all the work may not be worth it vs a turbo...

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

Another interesting thing regarding those flow numbers - they are only applicable to the J30 on the J30 block, and even may be slightly inflated due to the 87mm bore test. I can't figure out why they used an 87 instead of the J30 86mm bore. Using a larger bore to perform the test results in different flow numbers, usually better with a bigger bore. Another reason that bore is always better than stroke. I also wonder if they flow tested the exhaust with a pipe on it, as that changes the flow of it (for the better as well.)