simione

iTrader: (2)

I have always been curious about this, too. The Oem rod bearings are REALLY thin

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

Are the runfiles from a dynojet? If so, you need Winpep Run viewer. Get it here - Dynojet Research Inc. Downloads

Would you be willing to share the files? I will share my stock dyno file too

filthiestkid91

I'm just looking for a more aggressive oem cam, not planning on tuning so I'm guessing & hoping it'll pass smog. I'm in the east bay, but I work in San Jose.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

^ the car sounds mildly loby with camshaft. Well at least on my car it does. Inspectors will know.

filthiestkid91

even with all 3 cats? might even put stock cat back for smog if i have too. i just want a more aggressive vtec cam.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

If you have all cat and stock muffler you should be okay. My car just really loud

94eg!

Is it okay to install cams without a tune? Can the OEM ECU compensate. I know it uses wideband O2 sensor technology, but how far from the basemap can it stray?

simione

iTrader: (2)

the ecu will definitely compensate if you are using oem cams. i had type s cams in my j32a3 with full bolt ons and made 289/239 on a dynojet.

IIRC there was one guy who ran stage 2s with the oem ecu.

and here is a thread with a type s and stage 2's with flashpro. no dyno, though

https://acurazine.com/forums/perform...t-mods-915162/

N1h1l1ty

Wasn't Gerzand running Bisi stage 2s on a 5AT with stock ECU? Wondering if this is the route I should go with my 5AT.

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Yes and no. The WOT compensation tables drag the AFR one way while the actual low/high fuel tables drag it another. On a stock motor, there's very little difference between the two. When the engines VE is increased, the gap between these two tables is increased and creates a "tug of war" so to speak between the desired AFR which causes a saw tooth patterned in what's given to the motor. That's in open loop. Closed loop things can really get more hectic from the ecu trying to compensate to the increased fuel demand which of course affects the fuel trims. It won't hurt the motor running like this but definitely not the best way to extract max power from the cams or any other mod that improves VE. All of this and I haven't mentioned ignition tables yet. Lol

N1h1l1ty

Robert, quick question - seeing as to take advantage of Bisi stage 2s, or even the RL or TLS cams with the J32A3 heads you'd likely need to run something other than the stock ECU, would a piggy-back like the AEM FIC suffice in this case? Because I'm running 5AT my tuning options are somewhat limited, short of going a full standalone like a Haltech PS unit.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

AEM FIC cant fix the AFR issue but do zero for timing. Try looking for a mega squirt unit in the FS. That would be your best bet.

N1h1l1ty

Yeah I knew it can only pull timing. *sigh*

Part of me wants to play it safe and just run the RL cams or Stage 1 Bisis on the stock ECU and just leave it be, but I'd really like to get as much as I can out of the engine, so maybe investing in a good standalone will be worth it. If I recall, a bunch of people had issues with the MS3 though, and thus far I've only seen ones pop up for the 6MT.

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

Thank you for this Robert - you said the magic word - VE. ANY time you change an engine's VE, you should retune. While slight VE changes can be accounted for on fueling, nothing other than retuning will fix timing.

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

It really all depends on what changes you've made to the engine or how far you plan on going with it. If one doesn't plan on doing any significant changes, then I'd say run the factory ecu because the gains between it and a standalone/FIC/FlashPro really wouldn't justify the money spent.

I too ran a 5AT setup in my j35a8 swap (and still do with my J35z) and have had ZERO issues concerning tuning and reliability. This will mean you need to install the j35a8 ecu and run an adapted harness. This applies for anyone with the 04-06 j32a3 TL. If you have the 07-08 j32a3 TL, just the ecu. IMO, this is your best bet due to still using a factory ecu tune the engine over an aftermarket ecu or piggyback.

Simplicity comes much more easily when envisioning an engine a large air pump over a complex mechanical and electrical system. The more air in, the more power is created, then more air out.

N1h1l1ty

Thank you very much for the suggestion and guidance Robert - Just to make sure I'm getting this right - I would be using the TLS (35A8) 5AT ECU and adapting the harness to my 05 5AT and 32A3, and I'm assuming using Hondata to tune? Or would I need the 6MT ECU? Either way, this definitely sounds like a do-able route versus running a Haltech standalone and having to fabricate a harness etc.

I love threads like this and Simione's because it lets me learn quite a bit in terms of what IS possible with the J, and what I can potentially pursue in the future. Ultimately I would love to build a J36 like Simi's to take advantage of the overall OEM reliability, but for now its baby steps, learning as much as I can about what is possible with "basic" mods and simply tuning the A3. To start I'd like to recreated Gerzand's 5AT setup - 284 whp for the time being will be plenty for me I think

filthiestkid91

What's your exhaust setup? I currently have a Endless quad cat back, two magmaflow mufflers and resonator. Super quiet exhaust even at WOT! Picking up a 3rd car race pipe delete and endless J pipe other than that ima keep both my other precats w/ o2's. I have gottin word from people in California you can pass smog with out 3rd cat but ima play it safe and mount 3rd cat back around when smog comes around.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

magnaflow catback, ATLP v1 j-pipe, megan test pipe, RV6 v3 HFPC. Accord v6 3.0L 6mt. It will be dyno tuned in 2wks. Hopefully I make good power and can raise the rev limiter a bit higher.

filthiestkid91

Nice! I use to own a 8th gen and vit viper is one hell of a tuner must be nice to have a tune from him for your TL �� and just to make things clear Type S cams are plug and play with out mods than? Because I can't seem to get anyone talking on the RL's. ��

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

vits not tuning my car at the moment.

Dom was tuning my car and I had a run in the the law. Took care of that and decided to get dyno tuned on a chassis dyno.


I have an accord with the MDX camshafts. They are hollow spine pressed camshaft. I want to see how high I can spin them with TL-S valve trains

Grand_hustle17

Lol laptop scren fugged... Im willing to share... Doesnt matter to me.. My email is dnvr12@gmail.com

6spd-GERCO

This thread transitioned from moar torque, to reving the car to the moon to make power.

I wouldn't rev a stock valve-train past the stock fuel cut, if you aren't making more power past redline what's the point? I also would not run a cam without a tune, you could probably drive it around but it would be less than ideal, more of I can drive it to get it to my tuner or whatever. When I swapped ECU's to the TL-S ECU when I added FlashPro it ran like crap until I got home and loaded the base map for a J32A3 on the ECU. So yes a J32A3 can be run on an ECU meant for a J35A8 but it's going to suck. Remember our cars use speed density systems, so airflow into the engine is never actually measured. It is calculated based on temp,manifold pressure and engine speed using a VE table. The engine's VE is a moving value dependent on RPM, camshaft design,manifold design, displacement,compression and the manifold pressure at given point. So do you think the ECU is going to know that the cam has changed without you telling it?


Jeff Evan's J has custom cams, pistons and rods. Check out the first part of the clip.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

^ nice video.

Ill post a dyno of my car once I get it. Lets see how high rev it can go and still make power. High rev so when I change gears its already 10-20whp with the additional rpm

Sonnick

Great post, but I am having a hard time agreeing with the bold. Making more HP means making extra in every gear, which would directly reflect acceleration in each gear.

In regards to the graph you posted (if I'm understanding it correctly), I would think a car that gains only torque would be faster in 1st, 2nd & maybe a bit of 3rd...but near the top of 3rd and into the higher gears, the car with more HP should pull.

Either way, I'm not totally convinced that an OEM cam upgrade is a sure thing. According to the 'specs' I've seen, there is little difference in each cam. With supporting breather mods, the Type S cams may be an 'ok' upgrade for the 3.0, but unless you can do the install yourself, I don't see the cost/benefit being worth it. Again, this is my opinion.

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

^
Werd

This guy is the shit.



Thanks Bryan for the PM.

94eg!

Yeah I had a closer look at that graph I'm finding it's not what I thought it was. If you look at the dyno plot, not only is the high torque motor have shorter gearing, it actually has higher horsepower too. Complete opposite of what I was going for. Not really sure what I was after when I had that made by a friend. LoL bad comparison.

94eg!

I found the graphs I WAS thinking of.

Higher hp (blue) vs Higher torque (red), all else equal. Notice on the small "lead distance graph" it takes almost 30 seconds for the hp setup to pass the torque setup.



Now here is the same horsepower, but the red has the big torque. The red one simply walks away. Makes me want to build a stroker for sure.



I wish I had time to play with gearing to see if the hp setups could be optimized to actually win.

Here is the thread on H-T where this discussion takes place: Lets talk some rpm vs. whp theory... - Page 5 - Honda-Tech

FamilyGuy

The RPMs don't match between red and blue, so not all else equal..?

Also, if two cars do have the same weight, gears, etc and make about the same torque at about the same RPM, but one has more hp, then the one with more hp will win. If both have about the same hp at about the same RPM point, and one has more torque, then that one's gonna win. Where's the surprise? Whoever has the most area under the curve wins, all else being equal.

Of course, this is where theory meets the real world. We're simply just never going to run a 300+ wide tire in a FWD street daily driver. Too much torque isn't going to do anything for you in a car like the TL. Honda already knows which formula to follow for a FWD car, hp >>> tq. If you want tq over hp, you're better off with a RWD v8 or an AWD turbo vs a FWD car.

IMO those of us who'd like to get the most out of this car should optimize Honda's formula, not re-invent the wheel, unless of course, you have the budget and want to go that way for sure but then, at some point, it might make more sense to just boost it.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

if you want tq but a turbo charger or a V8. Its a honda guys. Its rev city not tq city.

FamilyGuy

Exactly my point

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

I can't spell and I have bad grammar. ;p

6spd-GERCO

I don't have much engine building/cam experience but I do see what all motor guys go through to get power and it cost a lot of money, that was clear in ILC's adventure. I would recreate ILC's build since it resulted in really nice gains and made the most out of the cams, it was a well put together package. I saw in another post you say you've thought about FlashPro, do it it's a great mod and it will help you out if you ever get cams.

Bingo it's a front wheel drive car!

For those that want FWD drive with torque...there was a V8 FWD lol the Impala SS...

FamilyGuy

Hondata is coming for sure, but beyond that I don't know at this time. ILC ran into some issues, otherwise his cost would have been much less, but who knows, it gets expensive to squeeze another 30-50whp in NA form vs other options that offer much higher outputs, so TBD.

That Impala SS didn't have too much power even with the v8, and was about as fast as a type s 6MT. I wonder what a v8 FWD feels like though lol

94eg!

The rpm of the two motors has to be different. You can't have the same power & rpm with different torque. Changing one of those 3 values always effects another. If you want the same power & more torque, you will have less rpm. If you want more power & the same torque, you will have more rpm.

You are definitely correct that the severe traction limitations of FWD will even the odds between hp & tq. And hp motor is definitely more rewarding to drive (imo).

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

^ S2k is a great example.

FamilyGuy

I know that. Thought maybe the software allowed you to cheat to see how the theory works. I suppose it can't in order for it to be realistic.

N1h1l1ty

ILC definitely spent a metric shit ton of money on R&D, not to mention Andy's heads which proved to be pretty much useless. Andy's 5AT j32a3 made 284 wheel with the Bisi Stage 2s on stock ecu, and I believe he didn't have much else done to the car besides the usual bolt ons and PnP - I'd love for him to chime in if someone can get a hold of him. Honestly, I think 300 whp is definitely doable without spending a fortune. Again, Simione's j36 build definitely comes to mind - with some bottom end changes for a compression bump/head work/cams I'm sure 320 - 330 would be doable. Again, as mentioned by all the infinitely more knowledgeable folks than me here - tuning will make all the difference.

FamilyGuy

He used Gerzand's j32 heads? Can you link his thread here, I need to read it again.

We can hit 300hp at the wheels now on a 6mt type s with full bolt ons and hondata. A 6mt base should be around ~15-20hp behind that, not far. Not too bad considering its around 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of a boosted setup. Once you get into the heads and engine is when shit gets expensive. What I was hoping is, since I have a 6mt type s, just dropping in some cams and re-tune would get 310-320hp at the wheels, which is around ~360-370hp under the hood, not bad at all. If so, and I'm satisfied, I'll be done. If not, then it's worth to compare NA work like heads, valves and CR bump to a boosted application, because shit will be just as pricey if not more.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

he didn't use the j32 heads. Turns out they weren't deck incorrectly. So he dropped another 3k on new tls heads. J32 heads would have raised his Compression due to the smaller dome. but not by much. I posted the link a few pages back. It is with the dyno chart.

N1h1l1ty

Sure, https://acurazine.com/forums/perform...mplete-897606/

Basically he spent 3200$ on his heads, I can't remember why they were not used but he called it an exploratory loss and moved on. Again, with the amount of R&D that build included, the cost ballooned like crazy.

Also, some J32A3 porn: