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remember this build? I copy and pasted his dyno test. So as you can see there tq drop some at 2250-3000. still worth it to do considering how much power he made verse power drop, just wish he didn't' get jacked up center line camshaft.
The car is for sale in the blackmarket, last I checked,from the guy that bought it from ILC. The cams were degreed to reel back in the loss in low end but that's because the cams were off.
I would take the 2250 to 3000 "hit" for that the rest of that power band, I mean christ he's making 200 ft-lbs @ 1500 rpm, what more do you want from N/A SOHC VTEC on intake only 3.5L lol.
94eg!:
Just to clear up Integra's
Type R USDM FD is 4.400 (97-01)
GSR USDM & JDM FD is 4.400
TYPE R JDM FD is 4.785 (98+ spec) I have one waiting to go in my GSR
Def worth it. When you race, you spend most of your time in the top 2k RPMs, not below ~3k. As long as the car has enough tq to satisfy the driver for the low RPM city driving.
Although in ILC's experience, the learning curve and problems that he ran into during the project ballooned his expenses beyond reasonable for this sort of thing...
- GSR & Sir-G used longer gears & 4.4 final.
- USDM Type R & JDM 96-97 Type R used shorter B16 gears & 4.4 final.
- JDM 98-01 Type R used the shorter B16 1st-3rd & longer GSR 4th-5th in combination with the shorter 4.7 final drive.
The trans with the 4.7 ended up being equaly short in 4th & 5th compared to the B16 trans, with the REAL difference being it now has a reduced 1st 2nd & 3rd. Pretty fancy combo actually. It also amounts to a 7% gain in torque at the wheels in 1st thru 3rd without raising cruising rpm on the freeway (which is already 3500rpm @ 65mph depending on tire size).
But just remember that power gain was on top of shaving the head down to obtain a 12:1 compression and PnP with valve jobs.
He also used 2 different set of camshaft and still got jacked up center line. Which resulted in a lost of 40wtq on the end of the spectrium that was later corrected by camgears. A 40wtq means the different of staying in 6 gear while going up a steer hill and having to down shift.
Still a good mod for what it is if you have everything else backed up and don't have the centerline issue.
Billet camshaft would be a better choice here considering that you don't have to provide core and source out camshaft gears.
This is strictly speaking on the data we have on aftermarket camshafts. We still have no idea how much power would be we net with an OEM setup.
Last edited by thisaznboi88; 04-23-2015 at 02:23 PM.
But just remember that power gain was on top of shaving the head down to obtain a 12:1 compression and PnP with valve jobs.
Talking about ILC right? Good points...so what's it mean at the end of the day? The gains on a bisi stage 1 or 2 cams by themselves aren't worth it then? No one knows what the gains are on their cams alone right? Without a CR bump or a PnP job?
Oh, and I also wanted to add that putting a 3.5L or 3.7L cam into a 3.2L engine will NOT boost it's low-end torque like some have said. Due to the reduced displacement of the 3.2, the smaller engine will only see the benefits of the larger cam in the top end area. It will still be a 3.2L torque curve, only shifted over to the right. A 3.2L with Type-S cams (if tuned properly) should have a higher rpm power band than a stock Type-S. It will also be necessary to upgrade the intake manifold, throttle body (maybe), and the exhaust system to optimize the higher rpm flow. And since you are only boosting horsepower and not torque or gearing, expect only similar gains to those shown on the graph (top of 1st, 2nd & 5th). Though it will still be a lot more fun/challenging to drive.
Obviously none of this info I posted applies to turbo setups. Turbos boost torque AND horsepower. That's a whole different game.
sorry forgot to add, I will be porting and polishing my intake manifold and throttle body for better air flow.
Just drop in a J37 IM and TB. No point in PnP stuff if you can use that money for bigger better stuff. PnP the manifold is around 150 buck or more. The PnP TB is at least 110 bucks for the stock j32/j35 stuff.
Just drop in a J37 IM and TB. No point in PnP stuff if you can use that money for bigger better stuff. PnP the manifold is around 150 buck or more. The PnP TB is at least 110 bucks for the stock j32/j35 stuff.
I did my research on the J37 IM/TB , It creates a Big rev hang problem on Manual Transmission TL's. Heel to Toe even states it on there page.
- GSR & Sir-G used longer gears & 4.4 final.
- USDM Type R & JDM 96-97 Type R used shorter B16 gears & 4.4 final.
- JDM 98-01 Type R used the shorter B16 1st-3rd & longer GSR 4th-5th in combination with the shorter 4.7 final drive.
The trans with the 4.7 ended up being equaly short in 4th & 5th compared to the B16 trans, with the REAL difference being it now has a reduced 1st 2nd & 3rd. Pretty fancy combo actually. It also amounts to a 7% gain in torque at the wheels in 1st thru 3rd without raising cruising rpm on the freeway (which is already 3500rpm @ 65mph depending on tire size).
I know it's more complicated, you only mentioned FD in the ITR and GSR's. Compare the GSR to LS and then it shows the whole more torque vs power and what Honda did to tailor the gearboxes to the power bands and trim levels. You even see it in the gears for the ITR with the intake styles and cams.
Great discussion. I have 1 thing to add: I believe ILC was one of the first to document modding the internals for a TL. He had good gains from his mods, however, I don't think people should be deterred from cams and head porting because he made "only 320whp" on 12:1. Jeff Evans made over 420whp on a built 3.6L. Yes, it was 14:1 CR and race gas but it was also their first attempt at building a J. My point is, the J series is still in its infancy as far as internal work and potential. The K was at this stage at one point and look where it is now. Came can and WILL make power, they just need to be researched and implemented with the right performance mods.
I have no idle issues whatsoever with my 3.7 setup. At first I did, however it settled down and idles like stock. Some people had no issues and others did, so it's really hit or miss. The gains are really good as I trapped 2mph higher and made up 3 cars on the street.
I plan on doing cams next year, but no pans to PnP or CR bump at this time...only question mark is no one knows what the gains are hopefully it'll be worth the cost of the cams, valve springs and labor. I'd also love to increase the size of the valves but looking at the heads doesn't seem we have any room for that?
You can go 1mm over stock on the exhaust. I know for sure since someone on v6p did it and flow benched it. Also looking at the camshaft the highest lift I seen was around .45 from bisi *they took all the specs off the website*.
While the J series will indeed flow 300CFM at .50 lift. The camshaft just won't slide in due the bearing clearance to take full advance of it. So expect somewhere around 260-280 cfm range. The exhaust flows something like 190-200 CFM if I remember correctly.
[QUOTE=Sonnick;15413963 Jeff Evans made over 420whp on a built 3.6L. Yes, it was 14:1 CR and race gas but it was also their first attempt at building a J. [/QUOTE]
What rpm tho? Based on the limitation of valve lift on the J head, I'm thinking they went high duration and spun the crap out of it, probably close to 10K.
That's an old trick the small block guys would do in classes that limited valve lift. Just run a cam that's absurdly large, bump compression, and spin the hell out of it.
I plan on doing cams next year, but no pans to PnP or CR bump at this time...only question mark is no one knows what the gains are hopefully it'll be worth the cost of the cams, valve springs and labor. I'd also love to increase the size of the valves but looking at the heads doesn't seem we have any room for that?
FamilyGuy while you have the head off you might aswell get a port and polish and bump compression. This is dependent on your cam spec too, if you are getting cams why not go all the way? You will need cam gears which I believe are available now.... ADengineering?? King degreed the cams via the cam keys on the stock cam gears to fix ILC's rear cam. John of Hytech told me about using degreed cam keys to get the most out of his headers, this will keep the stock gears to stay within class rules.. Very sneaky :-).
I would consult ILC and King to get their input on cams for the J-series before taking the plunge, maybe talk to Yawsports as well. (if they are willing to talk about what King did for them and their J)
Oh, and I also wanted to add that putting a 3.5L or 3.7L cam into a 3.2L engine will NOT boost it's low-end torque like some have said. Due to the reduced displacement of the 3.2, the smaller engine will only see the benefits of the larger cam in the top end area. It will still be a 3.2L torque curve, only shifted over to the right. A 3.2L with Type-S cams (if tuned properly) should have a higher rpm power band than a stock Type-S. It will also be necessary to upgrade the intake manifold, throttle body (maybe), and the exhaust system to optimize the higher rpm flow. And since you are only boosting horsepower and not torque or gearing, expect only similar gains to those shown on the graph (top of 1st, 2nd & 5th). Though it will still be a lot more fun/challenging to drive.
Obviously none of this info I posted applies to turbo setups. Turbos boost torque AND horsepower. That's a whole different game.
The discussion was actually not about which cam would make more torque than another but more in regards to which one was more a more 'torque oriented' profile between the choices that were given. This was because more power would most notably be produced by the cams that did not focus on this sort of profile.
The topic presented about which cam to use in a forced induction build was decided for the purpose of making a powerband that gave less attention to the top end (by aiding in torque production) and this of course is because its original application would demand such a profile.
Most of what you stated is basic engine 101. We're all at least up to 101-1/2 by now in this discussion.
Btw, I believe I have a picture somewhere of that 400 horse j-series motor. One taken directly from the monitor on the dyno. I'll see if I can find it. I believe it was ran to 9500 if I remember correctly.
Quick question for you guys - while I'm a novice as far as engines go, I do remember several cam discussions where it was mentioned that a more aggressive cam profile than OEM (such as the Bisi regrinds) would likely be seriously detrimental for the 5AT cars in terms of performance / overall drive-ability because you would lose power in the lower rpm band, to the point that your 0-60 and overall street performance would suffer.
Can anyone shed any light on if there IS an alternative cam-wise if I'm staying with the auto? I don't intent to do a 6-speed swap any time soon, but I would love to work on the engine itself (and consequently learn engines in the process), so would I be better off sticking with either the MDX or RL cams instead of aftermarket?
I might add that I would like to eventually pursue a J36 build, so perhaps I should plan around that? The prospect of OEM reliability (which from my reading on here has been rock solid for a vast majority of people) combined with the relatively lower cost is really what's pushing me in that direction.
FamilyGuy while you have the head off you might aswell get a port and polish and bump compression. This is dependent on your cam spec too, if you are getting cams why not go all the way? You will need cam gears which I believe are available now.... ADengineering?? King degreed the cams via the cam keys on the stock cam gears to fix ILC's rear cam. John of Hytech told me about using degreed cam keys to get the most out of his headers, this will keep the stock gears to stay within class rules.. Very sneaky :-).
I would consult ILC and King to get their input on cams for the J-series before taking the plunge, maybe talk to Yawsports as well. (if they are willing to talk about what King did for them and their J)
I've been checking out evans tuning too, amazing build on their j32...
What's holding me back is I don't know anything about cams or engine building. I'm near the end of FBO options, and I was *hoping* I could just drop in some cams and valve springs, up the redline, get a decent $ / hp and call it a day.
I'm afraid if I go all out it'll be too costly in terms of $ / hp (like ILC) and at that point boosted might become a better option, and it seems like a few guys are starting to map out that path for the rest of us, so idk, I need to learn more.
I would prefer to keep it NA, high rev, reduced weight build, this is what I'm enjoying at the moment, it's my 1st honda / acura, and my last car was a turbo...but at a budget that makes sense vs other options. Def don't want nitrous, don't want to keep re-filling for power, just want it under the hood all the time. I'll try to learn as much as I can and maybe graduate from noob to senior noob
It also makes 320wtq from 6000-6600, 300wtq at 5300 and ~250 at around 3700 I believe.
So IMO, Jeff Evans is the guy to talk to regarding J series cams and head porting as he is very helpful. They have even bigger plans this year with ITBs, larger cams and custom gearing.
I have some DRF Runfiles ive been unable to look at. Not sure how you guys convert this kind of file but i would love to contribute my dyno with TL-s cams. Im assuming in the 3.2L the TL-S cams needs to be really tuned to perform?... I do feel as if there is a little sacrifice to the low end hp and tq.
I can't post it right now but it's on Instagram and they made 420 at 8k. They also made about 395+ at 6800, which is the stock redline.
Originally Posted by Sonnick
It also makes 320wtq from 6000-6600, 300wtq at 5300 and ~250 at around 3700 I believe.
So IMO, Jeff Evans is the guy to talk to regarding J series cams and head porting as he is very helpful. They have even bigger plans this year with ITBs, larger cams and custom gearing.
I know, pretty sick, and the way they talk about it, it's less maintenance compared to a strung out 4-cyl, like the k series. They also don't mention any decking / milling whatever the term is, it seems the CR bump to 14:1 was all in the custom pistons. Imagine if we can figure out how to get 350hp to the wheels in NA form, reliably, and without breaking the bank...hello
Dumb question...ITB = intake throttle body?
Originally Posted by Grand_hustle17
I have some DRF Runfiles ive been unable to look at. Not sure how you guys convert this kind of file but i would love to contribute my dyno with TL-s cams. Im assuming in the 3.2L the TL-S cams needs to be really tuned to perform?... I do feel as if there is a little sacrifice to the low end hp and tq.
Did you measure before and after cams only? How much did you pick up across the range?
I know someone raised their rev limiter by a few hundred rpms and dropped valve QUICK! But that was on a stock j32a2.
Yup, bone stock heads. Jiga has revved his even higher, to 7600 I believe.
I don't think the J32a3 should have a problem since the motors are almost identical. Again, this is relatively uncharted territory because Hondata is really the only way to rev higher. In other words, I don't know if it's safe but I haven't had a problem yet lol. I've been to the track on this setup and it's done just fine.
It seems that like everything else, at this point its a matter of pushing the engine / drivetrain and seeing how much abuse it will take. I mean just like with the 5AT, where pushing any serious power is pretty much uncharted territory with the exception of maybe Libert's turbo TL.
Yup, bone stock heads. Jiga has revved his even higher, to 7600 I believe.
I don't think the J32a3 should have a problem since the motors are almost identical. Again, this is relatively uncharted territory because Hondata is really the only way to rev higher. In other words, I don't know if it's safe but I haven't had a problem yet lol. I've been to the track on this setup and it's done just fine.
doesn't he have TL-S springs? I am planning to push the car up to 8k if my power band allows me.
04-23-2015, 12:46 PM
, I mean christ he's making 200 ft-lbs @ 1500 rpm, what more do you want from N/A SOHC VTEC on intake only 3.5L lol.
hopefully it'll be worth the cost of the cams, valve springs and labor. I'd also love to increase the size of the valves but looking at the heads doesn't seem we have any room for that?
