MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

WOT = Wide Open Throttle, so yes.

Installation charges can vary from place to place.

meowCat

thanks MichaelBenz. Nice wheel horsepower you got there.

meowCat

MichaelBenz

Oh wait you are in Indianapolis. That's where I'm at. How much did you pay for your S/C installation? btw, nice wheel horsepower you got there..

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

I overpaid a bit...lol. Actually...I had some other things done at the same time. If just installing the supercharger...I believe it was between 400 and 600 dollars. I also bought gauges and had some other odds and ends done at the same time...so my bill ran me into the $1100 range by the time I was done. But just the supercharger issue...it can be done fairly fast. Demaree Automotive in Zionsville is where I go (Super Street Concepts is their speed shop) and Joe Demaree does most of my work that I dont do myself. And BTW...my supercharger has been flawless since I got it installed. If you want to check it out or want to ride....give me a shout and I will hook you up. Crap...I will even let you take it for a short spin if you want....

When I dropped my car off sunday night for Monday afternoon start...they had pretty much most of it done before I called to check on it at 10a that monday, so far as the supercharger install went. I think it took em about 4 hours or so total....and being they now have done it once....yours would be a cinch. Give em a call. Keith Royer is the guy who is likely to answer the phone....and tell him what you want...he will let you know. Not sure if you are talking just SC...or guages and the like too. Either way...your job will be faster than mine! Plus...now that they have a dyno...they could do a before and after for you. I only have an after as the dyno came in after I got it installed by about two days. (Came from Kenny Brown's shop on Gasoline Alley)

Put it this way....Joe Demaree is who all the other shops take their Hondas and Acuras to when they cant figure it out! He gets all kinds of work like that where other shops dont know what they are doing...try it over and over...and then end up subletting the job to Joe to eliminate the continual loss of money over their lack of know-how. Dude is the bomb as far as Acuras go and is also a certified acura master mechanic (used to manage for Ed Martin Acura at one time).

meowCat

wow! Thanks for the awesome info!

Oh boy that's a good price for the S/C installation! I was thinking like a thousand or two for the labor!

Right now my '06 TL 6spd MT is on a 2 yr lease so I'm not sure if I should get the S/C installed. I got it a month and half ago. I mean... i guess it still can be done as long as I put it back to stock before returning the car. What is your advice/comments on this? Once my lease ends I want to get an '08 TL-S. Not sure if I'm gonna lease or buy.

That Joe Demaree guys sound very convincing. Thanks for letting me know all this info. He sounds like a really good guy who knows stuff. Oh i'm so excited.

BustedJack

^ if it's a lease, don't do it....

pointless

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

I tend to agree with 2006ACURADRIVER in that in probably is a waste on a lease car...but....two years is a while and if you dont mind messing with it and having it taken off again...then you might have some fun. I talked with Keith while I was out at lunch on the phone while shopping the Coach section for a handbag and wallet for the lady for x-mas..and he said it would be about $550 for just a straight SC install. But keep in mind...you would have to take it off again before you turned it in on lease....unless you fell in love with it and bought it at the end? So...that is the basic poop on the deal here locally!

pohljm

Put the money your gonna be spending on the S/C and install into an investment account or CD until your lease is up and ready to make a move into a new vehicle and by then you will have a decent start towards a downpayment or a good little pot to do some mods with. Do not make that kind of a mod to a leased vehicle. There is way to many things that you will need to modify like your intake, fan shrouds, battery, FPR etc that you will need to bring back to stock upon lease termination.

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

And he brings up a very good point there....I wouldnt worry about any one of those things individually...but when you add em together....that is gonna be a lot of stuff to replace.

RYAN97812

iTrader: (2)

Michael, as far as running N20 with the s/c i would highly recommend running 100 octane with anything over a 35 shot. I personally wouldnt run any nitrous with it even without the s/c but thats just me and i like to be SAFE. You can run up to a 50 shot with the s/c. I may put a shot on the TL if i sell the s/c and i wouldnt be scared of running a 100-125 shot with some drag radials on the track but not on the street (too much wheel spin + nitrous = BOOM). As far as pauls car i can only say that he was running a 50 shot without any problems. His ecm for the s/c went bad and wasnt allowing the factory ecu to see the knock sensor signal so it wasnt retarding any timing even without the spray. Nitrous is expensive in the long run but if you have your own filling station and nitrous supply it isnt so bad. I pay $1 a pound so it works great for me LOL. Then again i go through almost 3 pounds a run on a 225 shot so a 10 pounder only last me 2 runs

meowCat

Thanks guys for the reply. You guys' recommendations sound logical, and I agree. I'll have to see how much I like the car and make the decision on whether to keep the car when the lease is up, or buy a new one ('08 TL-S) and S/C'it. That's gonna be hella fast oi oi~ Thanks again, Michael.

Kracker

So how would one get medical N20? Is it just special shops that can get it?

But I think that would be really fun.

ubnpast

^lol, kinda like blacksheep

pohljm

couple silly questions for my education.....What does the ___shot mean? obviously it is some kind of measurement of N20, I see all these different #'s I guess the larger the number the more N20 you are using, but is it a volume over time measurement or what? Also why would wheel spin + N20 cause BOOM.......overrevving?

ubnpast

Shot # is roughly the hp gained, so a 75 shot is roughly 75 hp gained. Yes the larger # the more power youll get. Im not sure what you mean by time measument, but the "jets" which are used to change the shots have a pin hole in the center, the bigger shot you put in, the bigger hole you have in the "jet". Yes, overrevving and detonation are the two things that play the biggest roles on how long your engine will last.

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

Just look on the piggy back station they have....it will be labeled medical quality most likely. Otherwise...you kinda gotta know somebody. Go and ask...they wont sell you cause they will know what you intend to do. Too many dead heads wore that one out in the days of the Greatful Dead.

robu23

Another question about the Acura blowers just out of curiosity. Are you guys with blowers upgrading your fuel system? I'm assuming all of you are custom dyno tuned as well?? I hope?? What kind of blowers are offered for the Acura's... Twin Screw, Roots, Centrifugal?? How much boost can the stock internals take? Just curious, I have a new TL-S that I have no intention on bolting a blower on but this is interesting, I'd have never thought that I would run into a blown TL.

ubnpast

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

Right now...there is only one supercharger for the TL...Comptech's. It is a Roots Type blower. No fuel system upgrade available....so no. Although we have been looking at the FAST system and will probably attempt it one of these days soon. As of now...the only adjustment I have heard of fuel wise is to adjust the fuel pressure by way of different crush settings on the FRP. How much boost...I am not the one to answer that one...Ryan is probably the best one there....plus...not sure they make a blower for the new TL-S. Most do a dyno to test their results...but you cant really tune em....they are what they are...other than a different crush setting on the FPR...and I have only heard of one guy trying that.

Donte99TL

What kind of times are you guys running on the 1/4th mile with the supercharger?

RYAN97812

iTrader: (2)

13.6x's for me with some wheel spin. S/c and cat back only for me. As far as boost is concerned, i dont think the stock internals (even if tuned well) would handle more then six or seven psi. Boost pressure isnt what makes that much more hp its the volume of air being forced into the motor not what is being "backed up" in the intake causing more pressure. At the flywheel these motors are makng around 380 which is pretty f'in good for a 6 cyl.

pohljm

volume over time measurement............I was thinking that the "shot" was something like so many "cubic centimeters per second" or something along those lines

robu23

Interesting and thanks for the reply. Does Comptech reflash the CPU when the blower is installed? So 300+ to the wheels is about an increase of 75 or 80 over a stock TL? Do you start to see boost around 3000 rpm and then it slowly builds I'm assuming because of the roots style?

pohljm

This was a comment I made in response to this electric supercharger POS thread, and I was just wondering if my thinking/math was even close?

pohljm

^^^^^^WTF it will not let me write C.F.M. next to the 564 and 250 without the periods???

Atrain

Hmmm where to start...

MichaelBenz,

Nit picking but an Eaton supercharger is not really a roots blower. It is a positive displacement supercharger and a HYBRID roots. A true roots blower has straight cut lobes and all Eaton superchargers have helical cut rotor lobes. That makes it a hybrid of the roots family.

Kracker,

No, medical Nitrous oxide can only be had if you are a doctor with a medical license. The nitrous oxide used for autos has sulfer dioxide in it to keep people from trying to get high.

pohljm,

Nitrous oxide (N2O), is a colorless almost odorless gas when released. Basically two parts Nitrogen and 1 part oxygen. When in the bottle it is a liquid and compressed to 2,000 psi. To achieve such a high pressure, you heat the bottle and liquid contents.

Once the liquid is released from the bottle into the atmopsphere it drops from 2,000 psi to 14.7 psi. The quick change of pressure results in a drop in temperature to MINUS 120 to 130 degrees F.

At the point in which NOS reaches 570 something degrees F, it breaks down and releases an extra oxygen molecule. The extra oxygen is met with additional fuel and poof...you have more power.

REMEMBER: WHAT DETERMINES POWER OUTPUT OF ANY GASOLINE ENGINE IS HOW WELL IT BURNS FUEL. Air is a limiting factor in power production.

There is also the nitrogen present in the NOS. Nitrogen is there to keep the combustion process from running out of control. If you injected 100% pure oxygen into the cylinders things would go wrong very quickly (READ melted pistons and holes as well). So 36% O2 by weight is allowed to increase power production. The nitrogen slows the burn rate and acts as a buffer.

How is it bad for the engine? Well it places a tremendous load on the internals since they are producing more power then before. If you should knock or ping with the nitrous engaged it could be disasterous. I have personally seen natutally aspirated 4.6L SOHC (FORD) V-8 engines with cracked ring lands on the hypereutectic pistons. No nitrous, no blower and no turbo. Just some good 'ol detonation to rattle the ring land apart.

When tuned properly the nitrous oxide will not harm the engine although increased engine wear does result.

Also keep in mind some guys tune the cars in the summer with a hot bottle. In the winter without a warmer, the pressure drops off and so does the nitrous flow. That could be dangerous. It's all in the tune and state of the engine.

Provide fuel (the proper octane), spark (and the correct amount of timing) and compression...the nitrous should work perfectly.

A-Train

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

Another great and informative post!!

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

And you are right and I stand corrected.

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

Not exactly....but in theory...you are correct. They do have the addititive at some shops in the n2o....but MANY of the speed shops (as already mentioned by a few others here as well as myself) use medical grade nitrous. Now...who do you think on their staff has a medical license? That is basically a lazy distributor that doesnt bother messing with it and just delivers standard medical grade. Apparently happens all over. (I find its quite commonplace) I dont recommend it by any means (inhaling) as it can kill you folks....seen it.

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

And as an adder to my last post....honestly people...just because it can be done...doesnt make it a good idea! Think! Dont do stupid things!

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

Hey...would you recommend N2O in this application or not? Do you feel that supercharged with N2O would overstress the engine being its not really built on the lower end or you think it would be ok...on limited usage. I am thinking about something....just dont know where to go from here. Meth....N2O....just what to do? Or maybe screw with a front mount IC setup with high boost pulley....? (would take a lot of doing) Whats your thoughts?

ubnpast

Yea, I would never try it, learned my lesson after seeing how high my voice can get off a helium ballon and then blacking out and going down a flight of stairs

pohljm

Can anyone resond to my calculations in post 63 above regarding volume of air required by engine at 4800 RPM?

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

I bet Atrain will be able to...he seems to know what hes talking about pretty well! When he comes back...I am sure he will fill us in.

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

<<Appropriate smiley for thread, isnt it...lol.

Atrain

We'll start with VE or volumetric efficiency. VE is load and is calculated as:

Theroretical Air flow over Actual Air flow = VE

It is very difficult to achieve 100% VE with a naturally aspirated engine. Not completely impossible, but near it. You would need lots of high flowing (expensive) parts to do it. However, add a supercharger and boom...you are well over 100% VE.

All PCM's calculate load in some way. Some cars use a Mass Air Meter and others use a system called "speed density". I believe the TL uses something similar to speed density. Which utilizes a manifold absolute pressure sensor, an air temperature sensor and barometric pressure. It then knows the volume of air flowing through the engine at all times.

Mass air cars are great because they calculate actual air flow quickly and can adapt to air flow changes and deliver the correct amount of fuel. To a point obviously, there are limitations to all systems.

The TL uses a 3.2L (195 cubic inch) V-6 and in two revolutions (4 stroke engine), you can theoretically move in/out 3.2L of air. If the TL moves 1.6L of air then it's VE is 50%

TAF (theoretical air flow rate) =

(Engine Displacement in cubic inches) X (rpm) X (100% VE)
_________________________________________________
Engine Stroke (2) X 1,728*

*1,728 represents the conversion factor inch to feet

258 HP peaks in at 6,200 rpm so we'll use that rpm for the calculation and we get 350 . The naturally aspirated TL is capable of a maximum air flow of 350 . Since most naturally aspirated engine are around 85% VE we'll use that for our theory.

At 85% actual VE we get 297 . The TL's engine is most likely around 88-90% VE since it makes 80.6 HP/Liter so you can say the TL flows 300 of air flow through the engine.


MichaelBenz,

I have no idea what the materials for the pistons and connecting rods, but I assume they are hypereutectic cast aluminum and powdered metal, fracture split connecting rods. If the design is right, (H-Beam or I-Beam style) the rods can withstand lots of power and a bit more rpm. Most of the time the bolts fail on the caps and send the rods through the engine block. I doubt if Honda uses forged pistons for the TL/Accord engines. Hypers have a high silicone content and they are easy to manufacture and cheaper than forgings. Hypers have great thermo characteristics which allow good sealing of the rings to the walls of the cylinder during cold start ups. They are however very brittle and do not take very well to knock or detonation. Forged pistons can take a bit of knocking without any trouble this is why they are used on most supercharged engines or high compression engines.

The 2003-2004 Mustang Cobra uses forged pistons, Manley forged connecting rods and a forged steel crankshaft to handle the 8-psi Eaton M112 supercharger. Let's just be very clear about this...forged parts are NOT indestructible, they are just more forgiving.

Getting back to your question, remember that you don't want boost. Boost is made when you flow air through a restriction. You can only fill a cylinder with so much air and fuel. The remaining air flow from the supercharger that is not being used, backs up and creates boost pressure. You want air flow and lots of it. Boost is cheaters way to insure you are getting 100% VE or higher. Turning up the boost will always create HOTTER discharge air temps from the supercharger. The Eaton M62 reaches 65% adiabatic efficiency at 4-5 psi of boost. Once you hit 8-psi you are in the 50% range so half the work is being done to make heat...lots of it.

Intercooling is sure way to lower the discharge air temps. You also increase the air density as well. The hotter the discharge temp, the higher the cylinder heat and the less dense the air. That also means less spark available and more resistance. In other words, more boost doesn't equal more power. You may find your ignition system cannot jump the gap on the spark plug. They call this blowing the candles out. The electrical resistance increased due to the supercharged compression of the air. To combat this, most guys reduce the gap on the spark plugs. This works well and its cheap to do. The right way to do it is to increase the voltage or get a hotter spark...not always easy though with today's computer controlled ignitions.

Since the TL engine has such a HIGH compression ratio that the effective use of the supercharger is actually working against you. Increasing the boost pressure is not recommended. You want a lower C/R, around 9:1 when dealing with a blower. If the TL was at 9:1 it would not make nearly the amount of power it does. Also the higher the C/R the more throttle response the engine will have. Using nitrous oxide to cool the air charge is a good idea and has been done before. The problem is it wouldn't be there all the time. An air-to-water intercooler would be the best bet. Air to air would be nice, but I'm not sure if it could be plumed correctly.

With everything, there are risks.

I hope this helps,

A-Train

pohljm

Atrain, thanks for the education, your posts are always very informative and to the point. I also always learn a thing or three, especially on this FI subject where my experience is limited.

I was not even thinking about the 4 stroke needing 2 rotations for a complete cycle through all cylinders! But although my numbers were double the C.F.M. required, my initial assumption was correct and that is that there is no way in hell that the electric fan POS device, I wont even give it the dignity of calling it a supercharger, is a failure. It is not even able to deliver enough air volume to our motor to run properly at atmospheric pressure let alone have any capacity for boost. This is exactly what I thought when I saw the device, but just wanted confirmation on my numbers. Thanks again for the validation

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

Excellent! Just what I am looking for! Thanks!

Atrain

Keep in mind I just touched the surface of the subject. We could go on for days in theory.

Glad I could help out,

A-Train

Atrain

Someone asked me to clarify the boost is back pressure statement so I'll try to do that.

I know this hard to grasp and for some they just will never get this concept. Boost is made when you flow air through a restriction. The more boost pressure you have, the more cork in the system.

Here is an example and it should help clear this up.

Take a stock 2006 TL and add the Comptech blower. Let us say the blower pulley spins the blower at 12,000 rpm when the engine is at 6,500 rpm and produces 5 psi of boost on a mechanical boost/vacuum gauge. Since the Eaton creates boost right off idle, chances are the boost stays at 5-psi for the entire acceleration rate of the engine.

So a stock 2006 TL, supercharged at 5-psi of boost.

Now you take that same car and port and polish the cylinder heads, add custom headers, high flow cats, and a high flowing exhaust system.

The boost pressure now reads 3-psi at WOT. Same blower pulley, same rpm, same everything. What happened?

You simply increased your thru put and thereby allowed more air to be moved through the engine after the supercharger. So less air is backing up on the gauge.

Did you make less power because you have less boost pressure. No, in fact if anything power went up...a good amount.

The reverse is also true, if you open the path or inlet to the supercharger (vacuum at the inlet of a positive displacement blower is critical), boost goes up.

Again, you don't want boost, you want flow and lots of it. The ideal hybrid roots blower spins the snot out of the supercharger but make little to no boost.

A-Train