New Clutch on the horizon
12-17-2010, 11:14 AM
#3
Burning Brakes
THanks Kn ...
When it comes to clutch for the Tl we haven't had a setup except for cm and spec which most people isn't using ,so with this in mind all builds exceedind 500 whp there will be need to get the power to the ground with this in mind we've developed a TWIN DISC application for the 2004-2008 Base Model Tl and TypeS model as well (pics shown above are those of the Tl TypeS setup .
Been in the industry I'm sure we all know a twin disc setup is not available for our application so every clutch is made to order and turn around time is an estimated 2-3 weeks ...
Package consist of custom flywheel ,tilton clutches ,tilton pressure plate and a custom throw out bearing,with hardware and install manual ..Twin disc setup is rated up to 750 ft lb tq ...
When it comes to clutch for the Tl we haven't had a setup except for cm and spec which most people isn't using ,so with this in mind all builds exceedind 500 whp there will be need to get the power to the ground with this in mind we've developed a TWIN DISC application for the 2004-2008 Base Model Tl and TypeS model as well (pics shown above are those of the Tl TypeS setup .
Been in the industry I'm sure we all know a twin disc setup is not available for our application so every clutch is made to order and turn around time is an estimated 2-3 weeks ...
Package consist of custom flywheel ,tilton clutches ,tilton pressure plate and a custom throw out bearing,with hardware and install manual ..Twin disc setup is rated up to 750 ft lb tq ...
Last edited by pass427; 12-17-2010 at 11:17 AM. Reason: Add
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12-18-2010, 04:27 PM
#8
Team Owner
Wow, that looks to be an aluminum flywheel with 2-disk clutch??? That's awesome, should have way more holding power than the Tl will ever need even with a turbo at full weight. I really like twin disk clutches over super heavy single disk clutches of the same holding power. Does this one increase clutch pedal travel much?
The aluminum flywheel should make it rev like an Indy car lol.
The aluminum flywheel should make it rev like an Indy car lol.
12-18-2010, 06:59 PM
#9
Three Wheelin'
Friend of mine has the CM clutch with aluminum LWF.
I drove it, and it wasn't that big of a difference on reving.
More noticeable on shifts, with quicker RPM drops.
Sometimes you risk stalling in stop and go traffic with on/off clutch, or when stopping lol.
One thing I like about LWF, engine breaking is more effective.
It also eases braking while in gear. Engine braking, and brakes are more effective when combined while having a LWF.
As heavy as our flywheel is, and going to a LWF trims down some nice lbs..our crank still got some pretty heavy counterweights.
Either way, I'd love this clutch. Hopefully it will be available at a reasonably price at the same time I get the tranny cryo treated (planning in the near future)
I drove it, and it wasn't that big of a difference on reving.
More noticeable on shifts, with quicker RPM drops.
Sometimes you risk stalling in stop and go traffic with on/off clutch, or when stopping lol.
One thing I like about LWF, engine breaking is more effective.
It also eases braking while in gear. Engine braking, and brakes are more effective when combined while having a LWF.
As heavy as our flywheel is, and going to a LWF trims down some nice lbs..our crank still got some pretty heavy counterweights.
Either way, I'd love this clutch. Hopefully it will be available at a reasonably price at the same time I get the tranny cryo treated (planning in the near future)
12-18-2010, 07:31 PM
#10
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Friend of mine has the CM clutch with aluminum LWF.
I drove it, and it wasn't that big of a difference on reving.
More noticeable on shifts, with quicker RPM drops.
Sometimes you risk stalling in stop and go traffic with on/off clutch, or when stopping lol.
One thing I like about LWF, engine breaking is more effective.
It also eases braking while in gear. Engine braking, and brakes are more effective when combined while having a LWF.
As heavy as our flywheel is, and going to a LWF trims down some nice lbs..our crank still got some pretty heavy counterweights.
Either way, I'd love this clutch. Hopefully it will be available at a reasonably price at the same time I get the tranny cryo treated (planning in the near future)
I drove it, and it wasn't that big of a difference on reving.
More noticeable on shifts, with quicker RPM drops.
Sometimes you risk stalling in stop and go traffic with on/off clutch, or when stopping lol.
One thing I like about LWF, engine breaking is more effective.
It also eases braking while in gear. Engine braking, and brakes are more effective when combined while having a LWF.
As heavy as our flywheel is, and going to a LWF trims down some nice lbs..our crank still got some pretty heavy counterweights.
Either way, I'd love this clutch. Hopefully it will be available at a reasonably price at the same time I get the tranny cryo treated (planning in the near future)
Heh heh heh, yes
I have a clutch master fx200 and a act light fly wheel and you def need to rev a car a bit more to get it off the line. I am sure it will be much easier with a TL as there is more power in the low rpm as opposed to a small 2.0 4banger.
Interestingly enough, a twin disk will do wonders for the TL. How is the clutch master cylinder on the TL's? Will it be able to handle the added stress from the high end pressure plate?
12-18-2010, 07:44 PM
#11
Team Owner
That's the beauty of the twin disk, there probably won't be anymore stress on the hydraulics or if there is it won't be much more.
12-18-2010, 07:48 PM
#12
Team Owner
I hear you. I drove my friend's 944 turbo with low compression, large turbo, aluminum flywheel and a million pound pressure plate and 3 puck clutch. I think I'm very good with a clutch and this thing made me look like an amateur. If there was any slip, the car shuddered. It was not made to slip at all. The non existent off boost power, slow spool, light flywheel, and super grabby clutch made it so much easier to rev to 4,000rpm and spin the tires than slip the clutch. That's what I had to do even in parking lots which got a lot of dirty looks.
12-18-2010, 08:31 PM
#13
Three Wheelin'
Heh heh heh, yes
I have a clutch master fx200 and a act light fly wheel and you def need to rev a car a bit more to get it off the line. I am sure it will be much easier with a TL as there is more power in the low rpm as opposed to a small 2.0 4banger.
Interestingly enough, a twin disk will do wonders for the TL. How is the clutch master cylinder on the TL's? Will it be able to handle the added stress from the high end pressure plate?
I have a clutch master fx200 and a act light fly wheel and you def need to rev a car a bit more to get it off the line. I am sure it will be much easier with a TL as there is more power in the low rpm as opposed to a small 2.0 4banger.
Interestingly enough, a twin disk will do wonders for the TL. How is the clutch master cylinder on the TL's? Will it be able to handle the added stress from the high end pressure plate?
What's noticable with the CM on his car is that, the clutch engages all at once..there's no grabbing one bit at a time. Part of it is because he also has done the slave cylinder mod, so there's no slowing of pressure plate.
He has the kevlar disk. I tried to trick him into getting the unsprung 4 puck ceramic, but he chickened out lol. That would've been my chatter dream lol. He drives through a lot of city traffic (Manhattan), and I think he'd gotten tired of it, if the clutch had any more aggressiveness.
The master cylinder is holding fine. There isn't any extreme in added stiffness, and clutch pedal is actually pretty friendly. I figure, the deletion of the dual-mass flywheel, a little heavier pressure plate and a better disc other than stock organic, provide sufficient holding power without the need of an extreme pressure plate.
01-01-2011, 12:55 PM
#24
Its not hard to get the TL off the line, and yes you're right about it being easier on the TL than a 4 cylinder honda.
What's noticable with the CM on his car is that, the clutch engages all at once..there's no grabbing one bit at a time. Part of it is because he also has done the slave cylinder mod, so there's no slowing of pressure plate.
He has the kevlar disk. I tried to trick him into getting the unsprung 4 puck ceramic, but he chickened out lol. That would've been my chatter dream lol. He drives through a lot of city traffic (Manhattan), and I think he'd gotten tired of it, if the clutch had any more aggressiveness.
The master cylinder is holding fine. There isn't any extreme in added stiffness, and clutch pedal is actually pretty friendly. I figure, the deletion of the dual-mass flywheel, a little heavier pressure plate and a better disc other than stock organic, provide sufficient holding power without the need of an extreme pressure plate.
What's noticable with the CM on his car is that, the clutch engages all at once..there's no grabbing one bit at a time. Part of it is because he also has done the slave cylinder mod, so there's no slowing of pressure plate.
He has the kevlar disk. I tried to trick him into getting the unsprung 4 puck ceramic, but he chickened out lol. That would've been my chatter dream lol. He drives through a lot of city traffic (Manhattan), and I think he'd gotten tired of it, if the clutch had any more aggressiveness.
The master cylinder is holding fine. There isn't any extreme in added stiffness, and clutch pedal is actually pretty friendly. I figure, the deletion of the dual-mass flywheel, a little heavier pressure plate and a better disc other than stock organic, provide sufficient holding power without the need of an extreme pressure plate.
if so talk to Jose at CM, iirc extension 21, once you call up the main number that you can get off there website
01-01-2011, 01:00 PM
#25
as far as the dual disk 
, should have decent engagement because of not having really small puck, but more of a full face design
only thing i see the issue with though, is that it is not sprung somewhere (which i know it is more durable without), but i would still like some give in the drive train, i already got enough issues chirping the tires trying to start out when i am driving normally (starting from a light)
but also i wounder if the axles and the tranny will start snapping like twigs with the above clutch and how much power it will hopefully hold
, should have decent engagement because of not having really small puck, but more of a full face designonly thing i see the issue with though, is that it is not sprung somewhere (which i know it is more durable without), but i would still like some give in the drive train, i already got enough issues chirping the tires trying to start out when i am driving normally (starting from a light)
but also i wounder if the axles and the tranny will start snapping like twigs with the above clutch and how much power it will hopefully hold
01-01-2011, 01:04 PM
#26
but i think the started ring teeth are the pickups though, and all it does is tell the ECU, how fast the motor is spinning and such (cam sensors do the TDC and such)
but as far as bolting it in, should be absolutely no issue, it will come down to if the ecu can pick it up or not
but as far as bolting it in, should be absolutely no issue, it will come down to if the ecu can pick it up or not
01-07-2011, 07:03 PM
#28
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solid flywheel
Has anyone heard of using a solid flywheel which is not lightweight for the 07TLS 6 speed tranny? I am thinking about going with the CM Fx300 with the stock dual mass fw and my tranny guy mentioned that many of his performance oriented customers with audis and evos use a solid flywheel that is not light weight instead of the dual mass...any feedback?
01-07-2011, 08:02 PM
#29
Has anyone heard of using a solid flywheel which is not lightweight for the 07TLS 6 speed tranny? I am thinking about going with the CM Fx300 with the stock dual mass fw and my tranny guy mentioned that many of his performance oriented customers with audis and evos use a solid flywheel that is not light weight instead of the dual mass...any feedback?
and fyi, i know single-piece flywheels are readily available for the powerstroke diesel, in the ford superduty
so the "know how"' is out there in the aftermarket
01-07-2011, 08:29 PM
#30
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just one question... where is there an readily available, heavy single piece flywheel? (custom adds cost..., so out of the question for the time being)
and fyi, i know single-piece flywheels are readily available for the powerstroke diesel, in the ford superduty
so the "know how"' is out there in the aftermarket
and fyi, i know single-piece flywheels are readily available for the powerstroke diesel, in the ford superduty
so the "know how"' is out there in the aftermarket
01-07-2011, 08:49 PM
#31
, less shit to break first of all, and second which is more important for some people especially if they like to go through clutches, the flywheel would more then likely be machineable, so you would not have to buy a new flywheel everytime (but they will also need a spring-loaded disc to absorb some the vibrations, but readily available though)as far as anybody that is more into performance though, will probably opt for a lightweight one though (endurance racing might opt for a heavier flywheel though, for being able to absorb the heat, and being more stable)
so the market for such would be more for people who just want a stock replacement option that will more then likely be cheaper
01-08-2011, 03:31 PM
#32
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, less shit to break first of all, and second which is more important for some people especially if they like to go through clutches, the flywheel would more then likely be machineable, so you would not have to buy a new flywheel everytime (but they will also need a spring-loaded disc to absorb some the vibrations, but readily available though)as far as anybody that is more into performance though, will probably opt for a lightweight one though (endurance racing might opt for a heavier flywheel though, for being able to absorb the heat, and being more stable)
so the market for such would be more for people who just want a stock replacement option that will more then likely be cheaper
01-08-2011, 04:03 PM
#33
That makes sense..Im not sure which path to take. Clutch has to be replaced ASAP. I only got 20k out of it so I guess I drive a bit aggressive. The tranny shop told me that lightweight flywheels can cause the clutch to wear out faster since they're not made to the exact dimensions that the factory one was..IDK...I've also heard of some bad chatter issues which im def not interested in dealing with. What's your opinion? Lightweight flywheel or stock?
, but then again i was not the nicest to it either 
(i knew i beat the shit out of it, but did not expect it to go so fast)(and i did not exactly break it in either 
)exact factory dimensions
it's not suppose to be lol, it's lighter first of all and out of a completely different material lolas far as the clutch wearing out faster, i would say it's more sensitive to tempeture spikes, and being slipped alot, because there is not as much mass in the clutch assembly to absorb that heat, and excessive heat will kill a clutch in short order (like if sitting in traffic, you can't just keep slipping it, but really should try getting it engaged as fast as possible, and if you can't it should be fully disengaged, and the tranny put in neutral, and you just coast as needed)
and another thing, people who WANT a lightweight flywheel , are more then likely more performance oriented, so they are going to be slightly harder on a clutch then other people
as far as chatter, none that i have really dealt with, especially if the flywheel gets replaced or resurfaced, you could say because the flywheel does not have as much inertia anymore, that you will be able to "feel" the pulsations of the engine, not that i have noticed, and i can be picky too (i also have a light weight crank pulley too)(and the "lightweight" ones for ours, are really not that lightweight, especially when you consider some of the options for like a civic)
so personally i would go with the lightweight, and see some power gains at the same time
, but i would say go with whatever floats your boat though
01-08-2011, 04:13 PM
#34
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2-3k out of the first cluth i put in when i converted my car , but then again i was not the nicest to it either (i knew i beat the shit out of it, but did not expect it to go so fast)(and i did not exactly break it in either )
exact factory dimensions it's not suppose to be lol, it's lighter first of all and out of a completely different material lol
as far as the clutch wearing out faster, i would say it's more sensitive to tempeture spikes, and being slipped alot, because there is not as much mass in the clutch assembly to absorb that heat, and excessive heat will kill a clutch in short order (like if sitting in traffic, you can't just keep slipping it, but really should try getting it engaged as fast as possible, and if you can't it should be fully disengaged, and the tranny put in neutral, and you just coast as needed)
and another thing, people who WANT a lightweight flywheel , are more then likely more performance oriented, so they are going to be slightly harder on a clutch then other people
as far as chatter, none that i have really dealt with, especially if the flywheel gets replaced or resurfaced, you could say because the flywheel does not have as much inertia anymore, that you will be able to "feel" the pulsations of the engine, not that i have noticed, and i can be picky too (i also have a light weight crank pulley too)(and the "lightweight" ones for ours, are really not that lightweight, especially when you consider some of the options for like a civic)
so personally i would go with the lightweight, and see some power gains at the same time, but i would say go with whatever floats your boat though
, but then again i was not the nicest to it either (i knew i beat the shit out of it, but did not expect it to go so fast)(and i did not exactly break it in either )exact factory dimensions
it's not suppose to be lol, it's lighter first of all and out of a completely different material lolas far as the clutch wearing out faster, i would say it's more sensitive to tempeture spikes, and being slipped alot, because there is not as much mass in the clutch assembly to absorb that heat, and excessive heat will kill a clutch in short order (like if sitting in traffic, you can't just keep slipping it, but really should try getting it engaged as fast as possible, and if you can't it should be fully disengaged, and the tranny put in neutral, and you just coast as needed)
and another thing, people who WANT a lightweight flywheel , are more then likely more performance oriented, so they are going to be slightly harder on a clutch then other people
as far as chatter, none that i have really dealt with, especially if the flywheel gets replaced or resurfaced, you could say because the flywheel does not have as much inertia anymore, that you will be able to "feel" the pulsations of the engine, not that i have noticed, and i can be picky too (i also have a light weight crank pulley too)(and the "lightweight" ones for ours, are really not that lightweight, especially when you consider some of the options for like a civic)
so personally i would go with the lightweight, and see some power gains at the same time
, but i would say go with whatever floats your boat though
01-08-2011, 04:43 PM
#35
Yea now that you talk about the heat factor of a lightweight one, I think that may have been the negatives that my tranny guy was talking about. Although I do remeber him saying something about it having some play in it since it's not made to exact specs as a factory one would be. I could be wrong though - he rambled on for about 20 mins and I didnt understand half of what he was talking about. I wouldn't mind some performance gains out of the lightweight but this is my daily driver and want the clutch to last as long as possible without causing any discomfort to daily driving. Basically to sum it up, you dont think there are any negatives to going with the L/w FW other than traffic situations? The two options are almost the same in price so I feel like I should go with the lightweight as long as there is no negative side to it. I rarely sit in traffic...How about the FX300 - you think that's my best bet for a daily driver that gets beat on from time to time?
about the only thing i would say is that the engagement point might be slightly smaller then a stock one (i have driven a stock 6mt, but not my car though), but some of that is just getting use to it though, and learning it (and not getting lazy at times)
and about the only thing i can say before you do buy it, is are you willing to deal with increased pedal effort (it's really not that bad, but any sort of traffic for more then like 5-minutes let's say, sucks ass, but again that is just learning to work around it, and either getting it fully engaged, or the transmission in neutral, so you are not pushing on it)
and you might also notice a couple of other quirks with a performance clutch compared to stock, but nothing that has bothered me though
(like because of increased "spring rate" on the clutch itself, you will feel it more so if you are not smooth with the gas pedal)
01-08-2011, 08:40 PM
#36
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that's what only lasted me 2-3k lol, so CM sent me a "9-puck" design, which seems to be holding up much better (gotta call them up for it though iirc)
about the only thing i would say is that the engagement point might be slightly smaller then a stock one (i have driven a stock 6mt, but not my car though), but some of that is just getting use to it though, and learning it (and not getting lazy at times)
and about the only thing i can say before you do buy it, is are you willing to deal with increased pedal effort (it's really not that bad, but any sort of traffic for more then like 5-minutes let's say, sucks ass, but again that is just learning to work around it, and either getting it fully engaged, or the transmission in neutral, so you are not pushing on it)
and you might also notice a couple of other quirks with a performance clutch compared to stock, but nothing that has bothered me though (like because of increased "spring rate" on the clutch itself, you will feel it more so if you are not smooth with the gas pedal)
about the only thing i would say is that the engagement point might be slightly smaller then a stock one (i have driven a stock 6mt, but not my car though), but some of that is just getting use to it though, and learning it (and not getting lazy at times)
and about the only thing i can say before you do buy it, is are you willing to deal with increased pedal effort (it's really not that bad, but any sort of traffic for more then like 5-minutes let's say, sucks ass, but again that is just learning to work around it, and either getting it fully engaged, or the transmission in neutral, so you are not pushing on it)
and you might also notice a couple of other quirks with a performance clutch compared to stock, but nothing that has bothered me though
(like because of increased "spring rate" on the clutch itself, you will feel it more so if you are not smooth with the gas pedal)
Thanks for the input. Your knowledge is well appreciated.
01-08-2011, 09:31 PM
#37
So are you suggesting I dont go with the fx300? lol The car is stock other than a CAI. I think the fx300 should handle a stock car quite easily, correct? If not, any other suggestions for a quality clutch that will handle a daily beating and still provide a nice ride for a daily driver? All I know is the stock clutch is garbage. I dont even race the car. I'm just a spirited driver. I was also thinking about going with a new J-pipe. I believe it has to be taken down to put the clutch in so I could basically get it installed for free right? Just to clarify, you suggest the lightweight flywheel over the factory dual mass, right? It should last just as long and offer some increased performance? I dont sit in traffic unless im on a road trip. Here in Long Island/NYC you cant get out of town without sitting in some traffic but my daily commute is a nice 10 minute drive through some side streets. Thanks for the input. Your knowledge is well appreciated.
Thanks for the input. Your knowledge is well appreciated.ALL parts are a compromise (stock is normally built for comfort/driveability, and not performance)
as far as getting an FX300, i would say yes (or the one that started this thread
), but you would have to be willing to compromise a little though (mainly on comfort/driveability)(kinda like how the AEM increasd the intake noise)as far as lasting longer, normally they are out of a better material, that is designed for more abuse, so with sprinted driving, probably longer then what a stock one will last (and the flywheel would be machinable (or you can also just put a new insert in it too; so if you do have to do your clutch again, it will definitely be cheaper in the long run)
as far as the J-pipe, i know i do not have to drop mine to yank the transmission out, but i think on the 3g, the "whole" crossmember comes out, and that j-pipe sticks under it enough, that yes it would have to be removed, so yes should be no additional labor
as a side note; lets say one day you either want nitrous or force induction, it be one less thing to upgrade for it, since it already be upgraded (hopefully enough though lol)(so sometimes the best time to upgrade is when you already have to replace stock components, which saves you money in the upgrading path)
Last edited by friesm2000; 01-08-2011 at 09:33 PM.
01-09-2011, 12:20 PM
#38
There is no reason a stock clutch should go out in 20k unless there is some sort of sever error or a problem with the hydraulics.
<--20+ racing evens, 3 mountain runs, constant downshifts to slow down, and I heel-toe when I'm bored. 60k on the clutch and I can chirp 3rd
<--20+ racing evens, 3 mountain runs, constant downshifts to slow down, and I heel-toe when I'm bored. 60k on the clutch and I can chirp 3rd
01-09-2011, 03:24 PM
#39
But I think my PP is going. I have the symptom of it slipping if I really hammer it off the line but is fine in semi-normal driving.
Is it possible that the valve in the slave cylinder is burning up clutches for people who really like to hammer on a totally stock clutch? I always thought I was to fault when I got on it because it seemed like I was riding the pedal only to find out that it was that damn valve. But it did keep me from getting on it a lot.