My path to 300WHP - 6MT Type-S
#1
My path to 300WHP - 6MT Type-S
Decided I wanted to start a progress thread in the performance section for my "build" even though it's likely not ever going to advance to anything past basic head work, cams and some PnP. Before when I was still focused on my 5AT type-s, power was not really my concern since I was already at a deficiency being a 5AT. Needing PCDs and Jpipe just to reach what the 6MT type-s was putting down was far enough for me with that car. Now that I've picked up my 6MT KBP type-s (Progress Thread), I'm much more apt to aim for bigger numbers - especially now that we've got a full tuning option available at a reasonable cost to really squeeze the extra juice out of each bolt on.
With that said, this will be a progress thread of sorts in that I will keep it updated with any and all performance modifications that I do to my car. I'm hoping for some more seasoned TL owners who have went down this path to chime in with some advice. For reference, I picked up the car on 8/2/2013 completely bone stock.
Lets get started.
8/10/2013
As of today, they only performance mods that I've done are the following:
-RV6 V3 Jpipe
-RV6 V3 PCDs
-AEM V2 CAI
-Slave Cylinder Check Valve Delete
-GM Syncromesh FM Manual Transmission Fluid Swap
We all know the 6MT type-s stock dynos at ~250WHP. Between the PCDs, Jpipe, and AEM CAI (maybe +1 WHP, if that) I might be putting down an additional 20WHP making my total 270WHP roughly. Still a long way to go to 300WHP.
What are my plans?
I see that P2R just released an intake manifold spacer. When I installed my PCDs, Jpipe, and AEM V2 CAI I really thought that I had shifted that HP and torque curve way up into the higher RPMs and lost a substantial amount in the low end. Maybe it's in my head, but this is the second TL type-s that I have had this experience with. I actually think that the back pressure from the stock cats and jpipe helps keep that torque curve and power down low. In an effort to counteract this, I'm going to get the P2R IM Spacer and thermal gaskets. If you've ever drove an MDX, you know that it has a lot more low end torque than the TL, by design. Among many subtle changes, the larger IM spacer can be attributed to the shift and I'm hoping this will balance out my torque curve a bit. I'm also going to likely get the P2R Throttle body spacer and thermal gaskets.
I've had my eye on the true dual exhaust since I picked up my 6MT. Before when I had an auto I really didn't see a reason to get an exhaust because 1) Power gains would be negligible and 2) Aftermarket exhausts really only sound good with manuals. I NEED something to get rid of this rasp from the RV6 V3 PCDs. Once I hit 3k RPMs, my car evokes the same feeling inside that I get when someone scratches their fingernails on a chalkboard. Plus it sounds ricey as crap, which I'm definitely not a fan of.
I'm going to eventually sell my AEM V2 CAI and fabricate a custom 4" CAI. This will probably come after I either bore out my throttle body or get an SHAWD throttle body, undecided still. No point IMO in having a 4" CAI with stock throttle body.
Once I'm "fully bolted", I'm going to get the Hondata Flashpro and really try to squeeze the juice out of my bolt ons to see what a good tune can do for someone who is fully bolted. I still won't really be fully bolted at that point, but I will have enough bolt ons to warrant a custom tune. It will be interesting to see where I'm at at that point.
After the above, I should be closer to 290-295WHP. I'm making conservative estimates. In the near future, I will be dynoing with what I've got now (PCDS, Jpipe, CAI). That's all for now!
With that said, this will be a progress thread of sorts in that I will keep it updated with any and all performance modifications that I do to my car. I'm hoping for some more seasoned TL owners who have went down this path to chime in with some advice. For reference, I picked up the car on 8/2/2013 completely bone stock.
Lets get started.
8/10/2013
As of today, they only performance mods that I've done are the following:
-RV6 V3 Jpipe
-RV6 V3 PCDs
-AEM V2 CAI
-Slave Cylinder Check Valve Delete
-GM Syncromesh FM Manual Transmission Fluid Swap
We all know the 6MT type-s stock dynos at ~250WHP. Between the PCDs, Jpipe, and AEM CAI (maybe +1 WHP, if that) I might be putting down an additional 20WHP making my total 270WHP roughly. Still a long way to go to 300WHP.
What are my plans?
I see that P2R just released an intake manifold spacer. When I installed my PCDs, Jpipe, and AEM V2 CAI I really thought that I had shifted that HP and torque curve way up into the higher RPMs and lost a substantial amount in the low end. Maybe it's in my head, but this is the second TL type-s that I have had this experience with. I actually think that the back pressure from the stock cats and jpipe helps keep that torque curve and power down low. In an effort to counteract this, I'm going to get the P2R IM Spacer and thermal gaskets. If you've ever drove an MDX, you know that it has a lot more low end torque than the TL, by design. Among many subtle changes, the larger IM spacer can be attributed to the shift and I'm hoping this will balance out my torque curve a bit. I'm also going to likely get the P2R Throttle body spacer and thermal gaskets.
I've had my eye on the true dual exhaust since I picked up my 6MT. Before when I had an auto I really didn't see a reason to get an exhaust because 1) Power gains would be negligible and 2) Aftermarket exhausts really only sound good with manuals. I NEED something to get rid of this rasp from the RV6 V3 PCDs. Once I hit 3k RPMs, my car evokes the same feeling inside that I get when someone scratches their fingernails on a chalkboard. Plus it sounds ricey as crap, which I'm definitely not a fan of.
I'm going to eventually sell my AEM V2 CAI and fabricate a custom 4" CAI. This will probably come after I either bore out my throttle body or get an SHAWD throttle body, undecided still. No point IMO in having a 4" CAI with stock throttle body.
Once I'm "fully bolted", I'm going to get the Hondata Flashpro and really try to squeeze the juice out of my bolt ons to see what a good tune can do for someone who is fully bolted. I still won't really be fully bolted at that point, but I will have enough bolt ons to warrant a custom tune. It will be interesting to see where I'm at at that point.
After the above, I should be closer to 290-295WHP. I'm making conservative estimates. In the near future, I will be dynoing with what I've got now (PCDS, Jpipe, CAI). That's all for now!
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Tlsdd (09-20-2013)
#4
Burning Brakes
iTrader: (1)
awesome. Always glad to see more people taking advantage of modding opportunities on 6mt type-s, now that we have flashpro for tuning. Lot of people will hate on you, though
I had basically all the bolt-ons you are talking about, plus the Flashpro tune, and I hit 295. So I think your expectations are pretty realistic.
Throw those PnP lower intake runners in the mix and I'm sure you'd hit 300 - I never had those when I hit 295.
I had basically all the bolt-ons you are talking about, plus the Flashpro tune, and I hit 295. So I think your expectations are pretty realistic.
Throw those PnP lower intake runners in the mix and I'm sure you'd hit 300 - I never had those when I hit 295.
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JJH (08-10-2013)
#5
awesome. Always glad to see more people taking advantage of modding opportunities on 6mt type-s, now that we have flashpro for tuning. Lot of people will hate on you, though
I had basically all the bolt-ons you are talking about, plus the Flashpro tune, and I hit 295. So I think your expectations are pretty realistic.
Throw those PnP lower intake runners in the mix and I'm sure you'd hit 300 - I never had those when I hit 295.
I had basically all the bolt-ons you are talking about, plus the Flashpro tune, and I hit 295. So I think your expectations are pretty realistic.
Throw those PnP lower intake runners in the mix and I'm sure you'd hit 300 - I never had those when I hit 295.
I figured I will take some heat, but whatever. RV6 has also dropped some hints they might be dropping a turbo kit here soon. If that happens, I'll be nice and ready for it. I wouldn't mind having a turbod TL running some low boost as a reliable daily driver. We never had a turbod TL that had Flashpro, would be interesting.
#6
Team Owner
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Subscribed, indeed.
#7
J-series addict
iTrader: (4)
It's not that I don't like sharing a similar interest and passion with others about specific horsepower goals (300 or 350hp seem to be most popular) they have with their cars, it's just the simple fact I've seen so many come on and type out a "wish list" of parts, ideas and goals only to become underachievers.
I generally encourage them anyways in hopes of contributing to the end result of reality but its beginning to get discouraging. I know a few close people that have asked me and many others to help here and to give advice there...and then becomes wasted effort on everyone's behalf.
All I ask is (OP and others alike) if you're going waste your own time that's fine, but stop wasting everyone's else's
OP, it's a lot of work to make this happen but it's very much worth the payoff and the end result. I've done it many times now with only two cars (in regards to j-series) and each time is better than the last. It's an awesome thing to be able drive something of your hard work, skill, determination and most of all: part of you. Good luck man. Keep it going.
I generally encourage them anyways in hopes of contributing to the end result of reality but its beginning to get discouraging. I know a few close people that have asked me and many others to help here and to give advice there...and then becomes wasted effort on everyone's behalf.
All I ask is (OP and others alike) if you're going waste your own time that's fine, but stop wasting everyone's else's
OP, it's a lot of work to make this happen but it's very much worth the payoff and the end result. I've done it many times now with only two cars (in regards to j-series) and each time is better than the last. It's an awesome thing to be able drive something of your hard work, skill, determination and most of all: part of you. Good luck man. Keep it going.
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Marcelechka (08-12-2013)
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#8
^ There won't be any let downs here. I normally follow through with what I say I'm going to do or what I want to do hence me owning two different type-s's right now
I think financial bottlenecks are the end to most peoples power goals on azine. Knowledge/experience is definitely my bottleneck right now which I why I created this thread to hopefully get input from other more experienced individuals.
I think financial bottlenecks are the end to most peoples power goals on azine. Knowledge/experience is definitely my bottleneck right now which I why I created this thread to hopefully get input from other more experienced individuals.
#9
It would be nice to know where ur at... Lots of guesstimates, id like to actually know where you are at, and not to be picky.. what dyno will you be using? Hopefully not that dyno dynamics machine where they take the front wheel off as those numbers are bloated and fake... Anyways it would be pretty nice to just throw it on the dyno to see where you are at and where you need to go and the progression...
#11
It would be nice to know where ur at... Lots of guesstimates, id like to actually know where you are at, and not to be picky.. what dyno will you be using? Hopefully not that dyno dynamics machine where they take the front wheel off as those numbers are bloated and fake... Anyways it would be pretty nice to just throw it on the dyno to see where you are at and where you need to go and the progression...
I haven't decided or figured out what dyno I will be going to. One thing is certain, even if the dyno provides a bloated figured, I will still be able to see incremental changes from different mods pending consistent or near similar atmospheric conditions between dyno sessions. There have been a ton of dynos with stock 6MT type-s's. No point in me getting baseline. I will be dynoing with what I currently have before moving on to anything else. It's looking like a cat back exahust is next on the list, just haven't quite decided which one yet. Custom is a definite possibility if I can find a good local shop.
#13
I haven't decided or figured out what dyno I will be going to. One thing is certain, even if the dyno provides a bloated figured, I will still be able to see incremental changes from different mods pending consistent or near similar atmospheric conditions between dyno sessions. There have been a ton of dynos with stock 6MT type-s's. No point in me getting baseline. I will be dynoing with what I currently have before moving on to anything else. It's looking like a cat back exahust is next on the list, just haven't quite decided which one yet. Custom is a definite possibility if I can find a good local shop.
#14
08 TL type-S
Subscribed. I am in a similar situation as you, with a stock TL - type S 6 speed. I am considering J pipe, and HFC's , and a tune with Hondata Flashpro, but do not want to lose any down low power.
#15
Nope, I'm not stock. If you read through the first post, I have PCDS, Jpipe, and intake. For as many dynos as there have been on stock 6MT TL-s's, there have been 10x the amount with PCDs, Jpipe, and intake. I know that I'm nowhere close to 300WHP right now so there is really no point in me getting a dyno when I already have a rough idea of where I'm at.
#16
Type-s cats stock are 600 cell count. HFPC are 300 cell count. PCDs are 0 cell count, or if you want to get tricky about it they are 1 cell count
What I'm getting at is that I don't think it's worth it to spend more money on HFPC to gain less power since you're only going from 600-->300 vs 600-->0. I know people have done it, but if you're really trying to make power you should go right to PCDs so you don't leave anything on the table.
It could be in my head, but with both of my TL-s's I have had the same experience - a loss in the lower rpm range with the above mods. Hoping a larger IM spacer offsets that a bit.
What I'm getting at is that I don't think it's worth it to spend more money on HFPC to gain less power since you're only going from 600-->300 vs 600-->0. I know people have done it, but if you're really trying to make power you should go right to PCDs so you don't leave anything on the table.
It could be in my head, but with both of my TL-s's I have had the same experience - a loss in the lower rpm range with the above mods. Hoping a larger IM spacer offsets that a bit.
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StealthTL-S (08-12-2013)
#18
All motor
Don't bother boring the stock throttle body. For only like $75 more, you can have the ZDX, which is bigger.
#19
08 TL type-S
Type-s cats stock are 600 cell count. HFPC are 300 cell count. PCDs are 0 cell count, or if you want to get tricky about it they are 1 cell count
What I'm getting at is that I don't think it's worth it to spend more money on HFPC to gain less power since you're only going from 600-->300 vs 600-->0. I know people have done it, but if you're really trying to make power you should go right to PCDs so you don't leave anything on the table.
It could be in my head, but with both of my TL-s's I have had the same experience - a loss in the lower rpm range with the above mods. Hoping a larger IM spacer offsets that a bit.
What I'm getting at is that I don't think it's worth it to spend more money on HFPC to gain less power since you're only going from 600-->300 vs 600-->0. I know people have done it, but if you're really trying to make power you should go right to PCDs so you don't leave anything on the table.
It could be in my head, but with both of my TL-s's I have had the same experience - a loss in the lower rpm range with the above mods. Hoping a larger IM spacer offsets that a bit.
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NvrDwn (08-12-2013)
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justnspace (08-12-2013)
#23
Just my butt dyno talking Justin, I've got nothing to back it up but anecdotal experiences with the same mods on two different tl type-s's. You're right, end of story What you guys are saying makes sense though.
So since you had PCDs/Jpipe prior to true dual, were you getting rasp exactly at like 3k-4k rpms? If TD eliminates that, I would be a happy man. I've heard good things about Vibrant resonators too.
So since you had PCDs/Jpipe prior to true dual, were you getting rasp exactly at like 3k-4k rpms? If TD eliminates that, I would be a happy man. I've heard good things about Vibrant resonators too.
#24
08 TL type-S
If, I can use the Hondata tune with the j pipe and HFC's I feel better, as I said before.
#25
Pro
iTrader: (1)
I was at 285whp with PCDs, Jpipe, Catback, and AEM CAI which were very solid for my mods. Get a catback and you will be in the 280 range as well. After that you should do the 3.7L IM, ZDX TB, and PnP Runners.
Hope your build goes well, let us know if you have any questions.
Hope your build goes well, let us know if you have any questions.
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JJH (08-12-2013)
#26
I was at 285whp with PCDs, Jpipe, Catback, and AEM CAI which were very solid for my mods. Get a catback and you will be in the 280 range as well. After that you should do the 3.7L IM, ZDX TB, and PnP Runners.
Hope your build goes well, let us know if you have any questions.
Hope your build goes well, let us know if you have any questions.
Those are my plans. There was a whole 3.7 "kit" for sale in the BM all brand new that I should have bit on but I was in decision mode about buying a new car or not so I passed on it.
#27
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
justnspace...I am listening man, I read on here from some veterans that ran different types of J pipes that they lost some low end. This is why I am scared. I know you have told me, but others (veteran owners) have stated differently in my "benefits of J pipe" thread.
If, I can use the Hondata tune with the j pipe and HFC's I feel better, as I said before.
If, I can use the Hondata tune with the j pipe and HFC's I feel better, as I said before.
"OMGz!!!! one pipe makes 2hp MORE!!!"
"this one lost 4. Oh noes!!!"
and if you still want proof, dyno stock and then dyno after and you'll have your answer.
you dont even have to buy the jpipe.
just do a stock dyno run and mod your car without the jpipe. and if you're not hitting in the same ball park as the others, then you'll know what you're missing
#28
Pro
iTrader: (1)
Did you gain roughly 10-15whp from the catback? Which catback did you have? Do you think that you would have been closer to 290 with a 4" CAI vs the aem cai?
Those are my plans. There was a whole 3.7 "kit" for sale in the BM all brand new that I should have bit on but I was in decision mode about buying a new car or not so I passed on it.
Those are my plans. There was a whole 3.7 "kit" for sale in the BM all brand new that I should have bit on but I was in decision mode about buying a new car or not so I passed on it.
I lost power after my stage 3 clutch, motor mounts, 3.7L manifold, runners and TB because the ECU made the car run so rich which decreased the timing. After basic bolt ons you will definitely need Hondata Tuning
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StealthTL-S (08-13-2013)
#34
Burning Brakes
I haven't seen an NA reach 50whp from 300 yet without some serious E85 conversion and every other mods will be a gain here and there after the engine has been breathing good already.
#36
Burning Brakes
iTrader: (1)
Cam gears will be worth something because the timing is off a lot - like +4 in the front and -8 in the rear. I'm on a DynoJet so 350 whp end result is doubtful. Remember that Andy was putting down 318 on a DynoPack with his full build except for his 3" dump (which put him up to 325). That would probably read 300 on a DynoJet, as DP's read higher. I bet on a DynoPack the raw number could get close to 350, but it's irrelevant because the gains are all that matters.
I'm after +40 whp when all is said and done.
35-40 whp gains are a bit more in the realm of reality.
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i_love_cars (08-13-2013)
#40
Update:
Ordered the RV6 True Dual exhaust today. I figured this was the next logical mod to fully open up my exhaust and help me move closer to my goal of 300whp.
After the exhaust is complete, I'm going to likely be moving onto 3.7 intake manifold, ZDX throttle body, 4" CAI, and port and polish of everything. I'll dyno at that point, flashpro tune, and then dyno again.
See you guys on the other side.
Ordered the RV6 True Dual exhaust today. I figured this was the next logical mod to fully open up my exhaust and help me move closer to my goal of 300whp.
After the exhaust is complete, I'm going to likely be moving onto 3.7 intake manifold, ZDX throttle body, 4" CAI, and port and polish of everything. I'll dyno at that point, flashpro tune, and then dyno again.
See you guys on the other side.