i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

yep and that's what i am expecting - it definitely isn't going to be exact because realistically there's too many factors in dynoing X weeks/days apart.

I think the main goal is to prove there are meaningful gains. Using simple numbers we could assert that if my car produces +10 whp after just adding the IM/TB, compared to my previous dyno, we could reasonably assert at least a 7 whp gain on most applications with a similar mod setup to mine. It isn't exact but it isn't useless data either.

There are a lot of people who say, for example, that going with a bigger IM/TB and PnP, etc. is utterly worthless unless you go deeper and do head work, bigger injectors, etc. I'm not entirely convinced of that on the j-series and just want to contribute to the overall knowledge in the community on what mods can truly make power on our cars.

I think we all know it won't be a perfectly exacting science, as even from car to car the same mods will produce different numbers on the same day and same dyno.

Sonnick

Very true. We do know this will make power though, considering I made 15whp over my ported stock manifold on the 3.0. I'm excited to see the gains on the 3.5 though, especially after porting. FYI, there will be more gains if/when you upgrade to a larger CAI as well (my next mod ).

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

well, i decided to ax my evening and just install everything tonight.

the manifold and TB went in just fine, on startup it was clean aside from slightly erratic idle (about 300 rpm bounces at first) and settled after 20 miles of driving as the ECU figured shit out.

bad news is i came home, shut it off and gave it a once over to make sure things were still tight - I tightened down the relocated IAT (relocated it to the AEM V2 intake), started the car back up to give it another drive and threw a CEL right away as it started up.

I got my OBDII scanner out and pulled one code - P0113 which is IAT code. I reset the code and started the car again, and the CEL has subsided. So it seems intermittent.

Other than that the car drives just fine, no surging or power loss that I can see/feel.

If anyone has thoughts on the IAT, throw them out there.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

Give it a few days!
I bet the relocated IAT sensor freaked the ECU out a bit

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

that is my thought as well. Hopefully it was a one-time thing and the ECU continues to level everything out.

Thanks

KJ TL-S

iTrader: (9)

Just what you were telling me about over the weekend! Glad you got the setup installed, hopefully it goes well for you!

Sweet car by the way, loved the way it sounded when you drove off.

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

yeah it's too bad the pavement was wet so I had to regulate and couldn't really rip it that hard.

anx1300c

iTrader: (2)

That's odd. I never threw any codes back when I installed my AEM V1 and relocated the IAT. Hopefully it was just a fluke!

Did your buddy put his M3 away already? I'd love to see another run now to see if you hang more closely.

Sonnick

The intake manifold/TB install is pretty simple. The runners will be much more involved though.

Glad you got it installed man. I haven't seen anyone with that code after the manifold/TB install. Drive around with it some more and see what happens. I had the erratic idle and threw a code as well. The code went away and the idle is perfect. The only 'difference' in terms of 100% stock-like driving is the fact that if I put the car in neutral and cruise to a light, the RPMs will hover for a couple seconds and then settle down. However, I could care less about that, especially considering the gains. How does the butt dyno feel so far?

Did you try cleaning off the IAT? Maybe it got dirty or somehow damaged upon relocation?

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

well, I remember my friend Bada$$vtec re-located his IAT sensor to the intake spot as well.
I remembering him getting a code, it said something like IAT sensor error. or something like that.

He does have an EGR block off plate that is also throwing a code.
I'm not to sure if his IAT error went away or not.

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

it may have been a fluke.

I got up this morning and drove to work without any codes going off again after I reset them with the OBDII last night.

I'd like to say the butt dyno feels stronger, but I'm always hesitant to make those kinds of claims. I like facts as over the past 15 years I've heard far too many wild, outlandish claims by know-nothings that slap an intake on their car and "feel it".

But I digress - I can safely say I am not feeling any power loss. I would like to say I can notice a slight increase up top. My backfiring has leveled out as well - I still pop every now and again but prior to the install I could backfire absolutely at will when I wanted to. I am definitely getting more air to balance out the exhaust mods.

My buddy's M3 is.....down for the count already, lol. I love the car, don't get me wrong, but I spent the past 6 years driving a TL and being laughed at by him because he would say "you realize for that kind of money you could get an M3, right?", and every time I told him buying a used M3 with 60-70k miles is a crapshoot, lol.

So now here we sit with an M3 that has a broken Fun Mode, where any time you flog it to WOT it dumps into limp mode - CEL, headlights flicker, e-brake light goes on, traction control comes back on and VSA button does not respond lolol. It's also happened at like, 1/4 throttle coming out of turns. So the M3 will be going to the shop very shortly lol.

Suffice it to say, no more pulls against the M3 this year.

I'll be calling King today to try to schedule some dyno time with the new IM/TB now, though.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

at m3

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

he's pretty embarrassed about it lol.

The more ridiculous thing is how bad BMW service is around here - we took the car to International Autos on Saturday morning first thing, and they told us they couldn't look at his car today because they "only do light maintenance on Saturdays".

Really? You can't even look at this code readout of "possibles" and hook it up to a computer and even attempt to detect what's wrong? We aren't talking about pulling a motor out and replacing a bottom end, here. Just looking for diagnosis at the moment.

I shook my head and was reminded of why I would never buy a car from them lol

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

and hooking up the OBDII reader isnt considered light!?!??!

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

my thoughts exactly.

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

alright good news has arrived -

I just talked with King and they have a dyno days event coming up this Saturday.

I'm going in tomorrow morning to dyno the IM/TB as-is, then I will swap back to stock IM/TB and come back on Saturday to dyno that, and then leave them with the new IM/TB/runners to work on.

They run on a dynojet so I will definitely feel more confident in measuring the gains of the im/tb if I can run within a few days of stock vs. the new stuff.

I will post results tomorrow.

Sonnick

Funny you say how hesitant you are at making 'butt dyno' claims. I was the same way after the install. I didn't want to downplay it, but also didn't want to be let down on the dyno. So I said to myself, I feel something but I can't quantify it at this point. I went to the dyno and figured I'd be happy with 10whp, and got 15. Needless to say I was happy.

This car and the butt dyno don't mix all that well. With high IATs, the car loses considerable power. Yet when it's cold and dry, the car feels beast. The only way to tell is on a dyno.

OP make sure the dyno is done with the same correction factor (SAE vs. SAE or STD vs. STD). SAE numbers are the 'most accurate.' I want to guess what numbers you will put down tomorrow, but I'm not going to speculate this time

3gstealth

iTrader: (2)

I know how your buddy must feel about his M3, I had constant troubles with my S4... German cars cause heartache.

I look forward to seeing your numbers. I just received my zdx TB and shawd mani too. As soon as I get my mani cover back from getting powder coated I will do my after dyno and we can compare results between the 3.5 and 3.2

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

dyno results are in, I am very pleased with the AFR in particular - my last dyno in August was putting down peak rich AFR of like 11.5. Adding the 3.7 manifold and a bigger TB definitely seems to have helped balance it out as the numbers were much more in normal range (and I am not backfiring nearly as much).

I am about to go swap the stock mani/tb back onto the car in preparation for Dyno Days on Saturday and will report back on the differences (if any).

Here is the SAE CF dyno chart from King today:

Sonnick

Nice numbers dude! 289/254. The most impressive thing to me is that torque curve. You are over 200wtq under 2K RPMs. Not only that, it's as flat as Meg Ryan from 3.5K to 6K. The HP is very impressive as well, and I can see you left the butterflies in

You have a 2.5" exhaust, right? If you upgraded to 3" you would definitely see gains and the powerband would probably plain off closer to redline rather than at 6300. Only reason I bring this up is because you had mentioned cams previously, and with cams, the 2.5" exhaust could hurt you. On the K series, cars see 10-15whp gains after switching from a 2.5" to a 3" exhaust with cams.

Just out of curiousity, have you seen any other cars dyno at King to get a comparison?

Joey tl

Question is "this mod worth the money"? I have a 2004 TL 3.2 and looking into getting these mods. So your butt feeling and dyno charts say YES or NO? In your opinion.

Sonnick

^ Didn't you see my dyno?

FCVadi

iTrader: (3)

thats just mean.. she is a nice person and in her youth was very good looking ... still flat though

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

yeah, well the guy at King said his buddy just bought a 6mt type-s and now he might try to get him over to the dyno on Saturday so we can see. They said they really don't get many TL's over there and he can't recall a type-s 6mt that's been on their dyno yet prior to mine.

I was very pleased with the numbers considering I'm running HFPC's instead of PCD's.



Joey, if you see in the thread I mentioned that this Saturday I am going back to the same dyno with my stock 3.5 manifold/TB. That will tell us how much difference there is, if any, between the 3.5 mani/tb and the 3.7 mani/zdx TB.

On Saturday as well I will be leaving the 3.7 mani/TB and my spare set of intake runners (sourced from Sonnick ), for them to PnP. Then I will install all of that and re-dyno a 3rd time.

I am expecting to be all done with final results by 1st week of November, at which point I'll update the first post in this thread with full information from start to finish.

anx1300c

iTrader: (2)

Awesome numbers. Are you fully bolted? I can't remember.

And regarding the HFC's vs PCD's. I've never dynoed, but I did gain roughly 1.5 mph corrected after switching from the stock cats to the HFC's, with the only other interim change being a switch from M1 5w20 to Redline 0w20. So I picked up a good 13-15 whp there. A couple of it may have been the oil, but I still firmly believe the difference between the HFC's and PCD's is negligible.

I also picked up another .55 mph corrected from the ported runners and bored stock TB, so those two mods seem to have added maybe 5 whp, about what I'd expect. I'll be stoked if the 3.7 swap adds another 10-12.

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

yeah fully bolted on. Front to back I'm running aem v2, HFPC's, v3 jpipe, and atlp quads.

Interesting info on the PCD vs HFPC's - I was never sure of how big the differences are given how thin the HFPC's actually are. I mean they basically just mask the smell and not much else to restrict flow lol so I'm not surprised

I put the stock mani/tb back on today after the dyno so I'm ready for Saturday to find out the difference between stock 3.5 IM/TB vs 3.7, which I expect to be 5-8 whp if I had to guess. I expect to pull somewhere around 282.

With PnP on everything, as long as the AEM V2 intake can keep the velocity and volume up, I wouldn't be surprised if it closes in on the 300 mark.

Honestly that's my only concern right now - given the tubing on the V2 is designed to match up to a stock TL throttlebody...I had to stretch the coupler out significantly to fit it over the ZDX TB inlet. It would be nice if I could run an intake with an outlet that matches the inlet on the ZDX TB.

It just makes me wonder how much more could be gained on the PnP setup if the outlet tube on the intake was more of a match for the TB.

Lazer187

iTrader: (1)

I'am proud to have lost to you in a race Nice numbers man!

hondazex

iTrader: (1)

nice AFR !!!! for stock ECU !!!!

hondazex

iTrader: (1)

wow against me 266 whp max / 240wtq max with sae correted you hit 23 whp and 14 wtq more ... you have a exhaust and intake combo 3.7 over me !!! interressing number i need a exhaust !!!!!!!!!!!! 1/4 mile needed

3gstealth

iTrader: (2)

I realize all dynos read different, but assuming they read the same, thats a HUGE improvement with the 3.7 intake especially since you have PCD and he has HFC. That would be insane if these 3.7 mods gave us 20 whp, but I will still be happy with half of that

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

Maybe this will give us a summer project for your car next year

Yeah given my last dyno in August with stock mani/TB read really rich at like 11.5 AFR, this was very encouraging for me. I am really anxious for Saturday now to go back and get dyno'd with stock mani/tb again to see if it really does run that much richer in a consistent manner with stock mani/TB and exhaust mods.

we'll see - I usually don't go to the drag strip. I prefer auto cross tracks. We'll see what I feel like next season.

Yeah I dunno, 20 whp sounds really optimistic and I am expecting maybe 10whp, but the lingering question will still be what these 3.7 mods make when you have a purely stock car. I don't think the gains would be nearly as good without supporting mods. My car ran way smoother earlier this week when I drove it with the 3.7 - the AFR's kinda support that. I would think a 3.7 by itself would make our cars lean out with no supporting mods. It's all speculation of course because I don't have a stock TL to try this on.

hondazex

iTrader: (1)

propably PCD vs HFC 3-5 whp ... my estimation PCD give 10-14 whp ...
atlp exhaust vs stock oversize ...another 8-12 whp
combo 3.7 intake vs stock 3.5 ... 8-12 whp too
aem v2 in vs stock box .... 5-8 whp
dyno error 2-4 % ... 5-10 whp

more with the results of the dyno, you really start to have a good idea of the gain of each part , but the whp move up with different bolt-on combo !!!

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

Also I have to give a big thanks to Marcus over at Heeltoe - kicking ass as usual. I ordered spare OEM IM gasket with my 3.7 parts but that was only a backup - I totally forgot to order my P2R Thermal IM gasket and I have to give everything to King Motorsports on Saturday - recognizing that I have a tight schedule and that 2-day FedEx wouldn't arrive until Monday, Marcus got it moved over to USPS First Class for me so it'll be here tomorrow/Saturday. Great customer service IMO.

Bigtime lifesaver as I need that gasket to be matched up against the porting on 3.7 manifold.

pearlUA7

I_love_cars, then a fourth dyno with a 4" intake? You take donations?

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

i would love to do a 4th dyno with a 4" intake but honestly I have no idea where I'll get one that'll fit in the TL

FCVadi

iTrader: (3)

ILC, It will be custom.. you can buy a pipe/tube and use the same filter since the V2 filter is a 4inch opening.. that or 3.5 but I think 4

hit swoosh up for questions, he might be delayed in responding since he is trying to get other stuff done outside of his car

or you can wait about a month and I should have all the #/IDs lined up since I plan on getting it as well

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

that's kinda what i was expecting, and yea the V2 is a 4" filter so totally re-usable.

i'll hang low for a while if you're figuring out the details already.

Sonnick

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say you dyno 279/248 tomorrow on the stock manifold/TB. Once ported/gasket matched/runners, I'm gonna say you put down 301/261.

i_love_cars

iTrader: (1)

in my head i'd love to agree with you and your numbers are close to what I was thinking as well, but I also don't want to overshoot and be disappointed lol

anx1300c

iTrader: (2)

Worse comes to worst, that gasket is pretty easy to open up/match with a dremel.