Inaccurate

Acknowledgement - I would like to give a special thanks to "I Hate Cars" who has been a very valuable member of our Acurazine family. It was "I Hate Cars", affectionately known as IHC, that educated me on the importance of monitoring engine knock. Thank you IHC !


INTRODUCTION


If a person was experiencing knock with a normal family car, no real engine damage would occur. However, with a highly boosted engine (turbo, supercharger, or nitrous) under wot and full load, the engine will self destruct quickly.

If you have a highly boosted car and had a knock monitor to detect that the engine was knocking under boost, you would have the opportunity to remove your foot as quickly as possible off of the accelerator to hopefully prevent harming the engine. However with no knock monitor, you would discover that the engine was severely knocking only when the mechanic explains to you why you must replaced your blown-up motor.

The oem ecu uses a knock sensor to detect detonation. Knock must first occur, the oem sensor detects said knock, then the oem ecu *reacts* by retarding the timing. The main point here is that the oem ecu is reactive, not proactive.

When an engine is boosted to the limit (usually discovered in hindsight), all it takes is just one cylinder having a single power stroke with denotation to blow the whole motor. There is no margin (no luxury) to be *reactive* to any denotation.

If a motor is boosted to the limit, a person must be *proactive* to make sure that not even a single occurrence of detonation ever occurs. Not even for a fraction of a second.

This is why a Knock Monitor is important. A person needs to know if any denotation is occurring and retune the setup to prevent any detonation from ever occurring. That is, the denotation must be handled in a proactive manner and not in a reactive manner. To be proactive means preventing any denotation from ever occurring. Being proactive can only be done if a person is aware (via a Knock Monitor or other data logging) that denotation is occurring in the first place.

Just like your gauges, a knock monitor is commonly meant for daily monitoring. With a highly tuned engine, there are any number of things that could go wrong with the tune. The permanently mounted knock monitor is used to catch a failure that would cause the engine to begin to knock, even to the degree of engine damage.

One example of what could typically go wrong is purchasing some bad gasoline. Another example would be your water/meth tank ran dry or the injection pump failed. Or, the turbo was unable to control boost causing boost levels to soar.


There are several brands of knock monitors to choose among.

One of the popular brands is the Knock Link. Here is an article about the Knock Link (click here). The only place in the USA that I found that sells it is RalliTEK Performance (click here).

Another brand is the The Knock Box (click here), sold by Lightspeed Innovations (click here) in Canada.

There is also the TurboXS Knock (click here). Here is a review of it (click here). The problem with this knock monitor is that it requires a tachometer input. I do not want to hack my coil wires. It can be purchased here (click here).

HKS makes a sophisticated monitor (click here).

I found this place (click here) that sells some other brands of knock monitors, but it is in the UK.



Seeing how important having a knock monitor is, a person should be willing to pay to get a top notch one.
After doing some searching around, I found that many tuners love the Phormula, made in Europe (click here). It can be purchased from Lindsey Racing (click here).



















Here are three short videos showing the knock sensor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHJ75dvIfoU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MTsDOOBGvY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTYSsoIE1FY

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

Very informative.

props to you and IHC for both being valuable members of Azine.

Inaccurate

INSTALLATION OF SENSOR

How to install? I recommend putting the sensor in the oem location.... not an easy job.








Plus, I would want the oem sensor removed (incapacitated) because I would now be monitoring and managing the knock myself, not the oem ecu.

A person could take the easy route by mounting the sensor some place on the block. But, I think the easy route would compromise it's ability to detect knock. Just my feeling. Researching google shows that most people agree that the optimum location is the oem location for any engine. If someone really wanted to read more about the best location, they could purchase this SAE paper, “Combustion Knock Sensing--Sensor Selection and Application Issues “ (click here)

The Phormula, like many other aftermarket knock monitors, uses a Bosch knock sensor. The location and quality of the mounting surface for the sensor is vitality important to it's optimum operation. I found Bosch's tech papers for the sensor -

Bosch Knock sensors (click here)
Bosch Data Sheet (click here)
Bosch Drawing (click here)

It nice knowing that a person can easily purchase a replacement sensor if needed. However, I doubt that a person would need to replace the sensor. This exact sensor is used in many oem applications such as Porsche's.





The oem mount uses a 12mm diameter stud, whereas the Bosch sensor can only accept a 8mm bolt. So, you will need a threaded insert to convert from a M12 x 1.25 thread to a M8 x 1.25 thread. The Bosch sensor requires an exact tightening torque of 14 ft.Lbs, which is vitality important to it's optimum operation.

Don't worry about purchasing the bolt. The bolt comes with the Phormula monitor.

Here is where you can purchase the $3.10 threaded insert (see link below).

M8 x 1.25 Int. Thd., M12 x 1.25 Ext. Thd., 12 Lg., Thinwall,
Keylocking Threaded Inserts, Steel (click here)

pass427

Please include safeguard knock unit as well as this unit is basically the same but with further features such as ability to retard timing according to boost pressure ect ...

Inaccurate

As a side note -

I got the KS3 because I have no desires to use any electronics... just the KISS approach for me. However for others that might be interested in the Phormula, I would recommend the KS4, not the KS3. The KS4 has the option of sending the output into your other electronics (engine controller, data logger, etc.).

Inaccurate

J&S SafeGuard (click here)

Rodney - Does the "Ultra Safeguard One Channel/Two Channel Combo" work with our TL ecu ?

J&S does show a schematic for Honda

phee

iTrader: (5)

so how will u protect from knock now that u have the unit
?

NVA-AV6

The schematic I am looking at is for single channel ignition (Distributer Based) and would not work in that cnfig for our COP (Coil Over Plug) ignition since it would not have the ability to adjust the timing signal for all 6 ignition channels. This is a great solution I have used in the past for B & H series engines, but not for the J.

Here is the newer version needed for the Js, the Vampire also will not work.

http://www.jandssafeguard.com/8ChInt...terceptor.html

Inaccurate

Ha, ha... yes, I saw the distributor listed in the schematic. But, I thought that I would ask any way and was hoping that just maybe it would work some how

Can I use the Interceptor to make my own timing map ?

I am thinking probably not because the Interceptor is still using the ecu's timing signal, which is always moving around around. So, the Interceptor is only able to move the timing relative to the ecu's timing output, right? I would not be able to use the Interceptor to set absolute timing values to create my own timing map?

THANKS PAUL

Inaccurate

The short answer is....

"When life gives you lemons, make lemonade."

First and foremost is "I have options". I will explain tomorrow. Nothing fancy, a bit messy, but workable for my needs.

My "Plan A" is to "make lemonade". I *want* and need the full oem timing map. I do not want the ecu to be retarding my timing even under boost. I do not mean turbo boost by the way.

The detonation will be kept away by methanol. Huge quantities of pure methanol. I am *not* talking about water/meth injection. I am talking about the engine running off of huge percentages of pure methanol. Methanol engines *need* a lot of timing. If I still have detonation, then I will move to "Plan B". Plan B is to throw water injection too on top of Plan A.

If Plan B fails to control detonation under boost, then I have Plan C. Plan C is that "Nothing fancy, a bit messy" thing that I mentioned already. I will explain tomorrow.

By the way, if you next question is "but, how do you plan to burn the methanol ?" The answer is a riddle - "oxidizer".

phee

iTrader: (5)

sounds good. i kind of figured u were going with nitrous from something you said in another thread. have fun! because youre doing it right. unlike some guys in the 2g section

NVA-AV6

It makes it's own map as it goes, think of it as a engine safety where if you actual timing map is not getting the job done this will further retard timing to stop knock.

pass427

Dam hate missing these posts , Innaccurate no need to wish yes it does work with our Ecu , has ability to control timing by itself retard control , has it's own Bosch sensor as well ...

Inaccurate

Rodney,

The schematic shows an output going to the Distributor Assembly. Will this interface with our Coil Over Plug ignition ? And if so, how would it be wired?

Which would be better suited to our ecu - The J&S "Interceptor" or the "Ultra Safeguard"

pass427

Inaccurate when I checked the site I thought the same but the guy name is john at the time when we called he was just working on a new version I'm not sure why he hasn't update the site info , but I had to send him schematics of our car just to verify a few things which I did,and he made us one which worked by intercepting all 6 ignition coil signal , ability to retardt timing 2,5,10 I believe up to 15 or 20 degress ,comes with Bosch knock sensor also , I'm sure he'll fill you in on this product but check it out I'm sure it would do wonders in what your tring to accomplish ...

pass427

Inaccurate I emailed the owner , hoping he'd be best to describe this unit it's function and capabilities , hopefully he can post on this however here's a recent review even thou it isn't from a Tl ......
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/5324042-post505.html

Richie v6

I used this circuit to get a tach signal on my Mazda with COP and standalone. You would have to add a extra diode for a V6 and connect to 3 of the COP grounds.

Inaccurate

CEL AND HOW TO TRICK THE ECU

Although I recommend putting the sensor in the oem location, this recommendation does come with a peril (risk/hazard).

To mount the aftermarket sensor in the oem location, the oem sensor must be ousted from that spot. I failed to find a relocation spot for the oem sensor that would keep the ecu happy. In regards to the knock sensor, the ecu is very smart. The ecu will quickly know that the oem sensor has been tampered with. The ecu will trigger a Check Engine Light. The ecu will pull-out all ignition timing at all times except cruising. This will give very poor performance.

It felt like the ecu was pulling out about 20* or 30* of timing with the check engine light on. Piss poor performance. Interestingly, the ecu is programmed to still give full timing during freeway cruising even with the missing knock sensor causing a cel. My highway mpg did not drop in the slightest. I had to stay away from wot because the exhaust temps would peak at 1650* F with the low ignition timing.

The ecu is looking for a random pulsing voltage from the oem sensor. Most knock sensors will produce a random pulsing voltage from the background vibration. And, the ecu is programmed to see this specific background noise.

I spent a lot of time trying to find a way to trick the ecu into not knowing that the oem knock sensor was removed. I tried various locations along the engine to mount the oem knock sensor. There was no spot that I could easily find that would make the ecu happy.

I was fortunate enough to find this solution on the internet. I am unable to post a hot link because Acurazine is blocking the site. Please copy and paste this web address into your browser without the red X.

www.honXda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=1181854

This solution worked with the first attempt. It was a real life saver. Below are pics showing how I made the device to trick the ecu into thinking that the oem knock sensor is still installed. I have never had a cel since installing this piezo.













The ecu can be tricked into giving different crude timing maps by moving the piezo in different locations. If the piezo is mounted in a spot with a lot of vibration, the overall timing map will be retarded because the ecu thinks that detonation is occurring. On the other hand, the piezo can be mounted to receive just enough vibration to classify as background noise, thus keeping the ecu happy but not enough to cause any knock retard. This is a very crude, but effective, tuning device.

The install of my Phormula Knock Monitor caused me to have an unexpected detour in my overall project. After being faced with the lack of ignition timing, I realized just how sensitive the J32 engine is to timing advance. I have a lot of experience hot rodding small block Chevrolet engines. And I have never seen such a sensitivity to ignition timing as is with the J32.

It then became a priority to get a firm handle on this tuning situation, primarily the ignition timing. I needed to "blueprint" the oem tune before making any other changes to my setup. No more "flying in the dark" with the tuning mods. I needed to document (blueprint) the various performance parameters (ignition timing, AFR, knock retard, IAT, etc) and to document the actual performance (HP). In this way, I will know if I am harming or helping my overall situation. And if the performance does drop-off, I will be able to pin-point why the problem exist.

I was fortune to learn about the Auterra DashDyno (click here). The DashDyno will recorded data which can be viewed later on the computer alongside the actual performance numbers (acieration rate). Very powerful tool for my needs.


In closing, I am glad that things unfolded the way they did. With the ecu throwing a cel, it gave me extremely low ignition advance under wot. This guaranteed that I had no detention. This allowed me to learn what a baseline level should be as seen by the Phormula knock sensor. The Phormula peaked at 35% on the display during wot. This 35% is the level of background noise being registered by the Phormula. Now knowing what my baseline noise is, I set the Phormula to triggered an alert for anything higher than 40%. Anything higher than 40% will be detonation.

I am also glad that I had the cel because it caused me to get the DashDyno and to document my setup. Plus, it made me aware of how sensitive the J32 is to ignition advance.

craigtl35

would this work in n/a applications? for instance preventing the retarding of timing when the car is hot? im tired of trying to find a solution to the tl retarding my timing when i get some heat built up under the hood.

phee

iTrader: (5)

x2. and nobody has accurately described what this "surging" feels like but i think im experiencing it

Opel

i dont think you would wanna do that...
the whole point behind the knock sensing/ timing retard that Inaccurate has been working on in finding a solution, isn't about preventing timing retard..its in fact for the very purpose to RETARD Timing when needed, a bit ahead of "oh shit there's pinging, knocking, let me retard timing and save the motor", but mainly towards forced induction applications

what you're describing with your case is the stock ECU retards timing bcs of high temps in the combustion chamber which cause detonation. All due to high intake temps, from heat soak etc..which many talk about their cars being sluggish when its very hot out.

In that scenario, if your ECU didnt retard timing, what would happen? more and more detonation, hotter combustion temps, and more detonation, until pistons crack, and you get the rest of the picture.

I believe IHC himself has done a test based on this..from what i remember he ran high octane gas (cant remember grade) but if im not wrong, he stated something along the lines that, the TL needs at least 96 octane to stop pinging in NA form.
Im sure he will chime in and add more to this, or correct my memory.

Inaccurate

I am not recommending that the piezo pseudo sensor be used on a stock car.

My car is extremely light weight which theoretically reduces the detonation tendency. I have the Ultimate Cooling Mod (click here) which theoretically reduces the detonation tendency. And I still have light detonation with cruise control on doing 80 mph over slight inclines. I have heavy detonation at the top of the RPM range during WOT. Thus, I am reluctant to recommend this for a stock car.

On the other hand, there are is a theoretically possibility that because a stock car is heavier and hotter that the hot, heavier TL will be using a different part of the timing map which has less timing advance than my car.

My ecu sees light throttle application and cool intake temps. Thus, my ecu gives me a lot of ignition advance.

Even with my UCM, I easily felt an improvement in my hot weather performance after installing the piezo pseudo sensor in a location that gave me max ignition timing. However, this does not mean to imply that your car would react favorable to the same mod.

Opel

i believe its just hesitation....believe it or not, the DBW has to do with it as well...that jerky surge wouldn't be felt in a cable throttle...
ecu calculates and controls everything in our case...in this scenario..in a hot day, since intake temps skyrocket, and combustion chamber becomes a complete volcano, the ecu retarding timing to stop detonation, and you're just stomping on the gas pedal to come off idle, and you know what happens? the ECU fights throttle opening.

You might just think...well since its DBW, its controlled by the ECU therefore there's no need for it to fight it..not true..when you press the pedal and how much you press it, you create a certain electrical signal at each different level, which then has to be sent to the throttle motor translated into a certain opening position..so then at any given time, if you overdo it with the throttle opening based on the ECU's preferences in that certain scenario along with all other parameters (especially with a fluctuating ignition timing in our case, always going back and forth) its going to try and shut it right to where it needs it..why? simple. with a certain throttle opening, you're asking for a certain load support, which can't be possible with the ECU retarding timing due to other causes...

anytime you full throttle, the ecu is going to try and provide you with the best ignition timing possible for maximum power production based on all other parameters...but that can't possibly happen if the ecu is retarding timing bcs there's detonation

thats why, when you're nicely heat soaked, u hit the gas pedal, youll feel a sudden pull, which gets cut off immediately, then youll feel another one, and and another cut, and again, until you've climbed above 3000 rpm, and the load has lessened a bit (being you're in the right gear for your speed), since you're already in motion, then things become more consistent..you're still not making maximum power bcs of the heat, but surging disappears.

I dont know if this makes much sense to anyone, but im pretty fucking beat up right now...i may have all worded it out wrong, god knows, but try and make sense lol

phee

iTrader: (5)

i have a 2g with a cable throttle..

phee

iTrader: (5)

this is exactly what happens when my AC has been on. the loss of power right in the middle and then a huge jerk of power. ive made the loss of power smaller in range (was from 3500-5k)(now its 5k-6k) with water wetter and a coolant burp, but its still there.

Opel

you stated..."i think im experiencing it" ...something tells me, it wasn't always there... my cousin has a 2g, ive driven it a lot, and such thing is non-existent. Meanwhile, in 3g, it gets very nasty at times.
anyway, i dont wanna flood this thread with anymore off topic talk...
let Inaccurate do what he's doing,
im off to work

Rajca

iTrader: (8)

very interesting. subscribed and planning on getting a knock monitor

libert69

iTrader: (7)

So your not even using the oem knock sensor anymore right? You just cut the wire from the oem connector and attach it to the transducer? How tight did you make the bolt on the mounting bracket if that even matters?

Since the transducer is now tricking the ecu into receiving the amount of voltage it needs to be happy and not throw a cel, you will no longer see any timing retard correct?

craigtl35

sorry for thread jacking, opel thanks for the answers they really clear some things up, this may not be the best way to get rid of the "surging" heatsoak, issues but i am def subscribed

Inaccurate

Great questions Bert.

I have no oem knock sensor on the car at all. Oem sensor is gone.

In pic below, this is the oem wiring and oem sensor.




In pic below, cut the wiring at the middle. Use the left side for transducer. This oem wiring is the stuff that mice love to eat.

Knock sensor chewed by a mouse/Mice eating wires/Mouse Ate my TL (merged threads) (click here)












In my opinion, tightening torque for this pseudo sensor in not critical. The pseudo sensor is all about crude, rough adjustments to the ecu input. The pseudo sensor does not need the precision torque like for a real knock sensor. After all, it is just Gorilla glue'ed to its home-made bracket. But, good question none the less.

We can control the amount of signal being sent to the ecu. This allows us to very crudely control how much, if any, amount of retard the engine receive from the ecu.

In the pic immediately above, I have tested the pseudo sensor in location #1 and #2.. In location #1, I was receiving timing retard. At that time, I did not yet have my DashDyno to datalog the ignition timing. So, I don't know how much retard, but it was enough for me to feel it (but not excessive) and I was no longer getting alerts from the Phormula with wot. This location #1 is on my list of available options if I need to incorporate some retard with my nitrous setup. By the way, the nitrous is still under-construction. All of this knock sensor stuff and a lot of other stuff needs to be worked out first.

I currently have the pseudo sensor in location #2. I think that this location #2 is giving me the full timing mapping without any retard. The DashDyno, and most other generic OBD scanners, is unable to read the Knock Retard value from the ecu. The Knock Retard is an "Enhanced Parameter", which scanners companies charge a lot of money to allow you to read any Enhanced Parameters. However, I have blueprinted (documented) the amount of timing that I get with the pseudo sensor in location #2. I still need to compare my total timing in location #1 versus in location #2 to see how much retard is occuring.

Plus, I still need to do some data logging with the DashDyno with no input signal what-so-ever for the knock sensor. I have learned in my "trail and tribulations" that the car will run with max timing for a few minutes with nothing plugged into the knock sensor input wire before the ecu will throw a cel. Makes sense. The ecu waits for a few minutes (scratching it's head) waiting to see if there is really no sensor input or is the engine just running very smoothly. During those few minutes, it gives you the benefit of doubt and allows full timing before throwing the cel once it realizes there is nothing connected to the input wire.

Based on my Phormula readings during several experiments, such as the amount of induced detonation with nothing connected for the sensor input, and other experiemnts with the amount of induced detonation with 90 octane fuel, I feel fairly sure that the location #2 is giving just enough signal strength to keep the ecu happy and not too much signal to cause any knock retard. I really wish I could see Knock Retard values on the scanner. I tried and was not able to.

The main point is that the ecu can be tricked into giving full timing or be tricked into giving retarded timing. This is crude and ghetto, but effective none-the-less. Another option is to have a relay that can toggle between two different pseudo sensors mounted in different locations. For example, you could have a pseudo sensor in location #1 and another pseudo sensor in location #2. A relay could be used to connect the ecu to a sensor in location #1 (causing retarded timing) while under boost. Then the relay could switch to sensor in location #2 (giving full timing) for non-boosted driving.

The above paragraph is just a thought. I do not know if the ecu is able to sufficiently retard enough timing to prevent detonation in a boosted application. The focus of my R&D for my application is to make sure that the ecu is giving me full timing, and then to remove all traces of detonation with water/meth injection while non-boosted, and with massive quantities of pure methanol during nitrous boost. But if needed, I will be implementing the options discussed in this reply.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

I've decided my next purchase is going to be a knock monitor.

However, I don't want to change the location/function of the stock system (yet) and want to start by just having the ability to detect knock and then move to collecting data, then making start making changes.

Based on that, where is the 2nd best place to put an aftermarket knock sensor?

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Another question.

Would something from J&S be a better solution if I do decide to go further into the tuning?

Does anyone know what the price range of the interceptor is?

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

Info on the Interceptor:


Base price for the Interceptor is $549. This includes a five foot harness configured for four channel operation, and two sets of Molex connectors to complete the installation.

Price with harness wired for six channel operation is $559.

Inaccurate

Not knowing anything about the J&S, except Rodney and many other people on other sites praise the J&S unit (almost legendary status), I would recommend pursuing the J&S route.

I do know that removing the oem knock sensor from it's oem location is a problematic. The ECU will get cranky and will throw a CEL if the signal is not just right. I also could not easily (I didn't try too hard) find anywhere else to mount the oem sensor. I doubt that another location would even work for the oem sensor. The ecu is programmed to expect the signal from the oem sensor from that oem location. The oem sensor in any other location would failed to produce the oem signal that the ecu demands to see. During any attempt to relocate the oem sensor, if you failed to mimic the same output as the oem location, you will either get a CEL from too little signal OR you will get retarded ignition from too much signal. Problematic !

I have no good advice on where to mount an aftermarket knock sensor. It seems that the only option is to leave the oem sensor in the oem location. And to mount the Bosch sensor somewhere along the block or head. Not that I am recommending this because this will surely degrade the performance of any knock monitor. But there are no other options that I see.

I can say that during my researching, I read of many people mounting the Bosch sensor along the outside of the engine block or on the head. Many mounted the sensor almost haphazardly. And according to them, the knock monitor still worked adequately.

If you go with the J&S, please keep us updated as you learn more.

KaMLuNg

iTrader: (5)

inacc... none of the pics come up for me??? anyone else have this issue?

NVA-AV6

There is a blank boss a bit closer to the water pump that you can drill into 1" safely and tap for the second knock sensor.....

Inaccurate

This one ?

Juan Antonio

I added install diagrams for the six channel.

Last three images:
http://picasaweb.google.com/JohnPizz...eInstallation#

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

NVA-AV6

No, the solid one between the waterpump and the stock sensor