I hate cars

This is why align bore/hone is done only with a deck plate installed with all head bolts fully torqued and obviously all main bolts fully torqued down and not just two per cap. This can even include the oil pan if it's a stressed member of the bottom end. This is especially important on an aluminum engine. With the deck plate bolted down, the crank might have freed up.

Sometimes you can get away with re-doing an align bore especially since these are OHC engines. Most of the time you can redo it correctly and use +1 bearings instead of trashing the block.

The other is to make only one pass at a time, letting it completely cool for at least an hour and only then making another pass. It takes time and cuts into the profit for the machine shop but it's the only right way to do it.

I hate to ask because I don't want to insult anyone but the main caps didn't get flipped or switched, right?

I hate cars

That sucks you guys lost a block, that's never good. Did they get recycled, sold, etc?

If the blocks are still around I suggest trying the crank with the heads or a deck plate torqued down.

Where to the head bolts grab in the J series, is it down around the main webbing?

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Not sure if you missed my post earlier where I explained the factors we considered before quickly deciding to throw the block out rather than align honing it so I'll reiterate and expand a little on why. In my experience with engine building, I've never went any further than the essential honing or decking on block work because I really dislike putting any more trust than I have to in someone else's skills/experience and this block makes an excellent example of why I feel this way. The less hands involved in my work, the better and more confident I feel.

As for the main caps being switched, I assure you that wasn't an issue. No insults taken. I appreciate and understand your questioning. As a matter of fact, I rechecked my own work by switching out the caps, bearings and crank only to see the same results.

To anyone in the Texas, DFW metroplex, I urge you to not use City Motor Supply. Yes, they have been around for many years and even have excellent online reviews but their recent feedback is not so good.

Block is more than likely going to be thrown in the back as scrap aluminum.

City Motor Supply told me they don't have (and therefore use) torque plates for the j-series but since it only needed a very light honing, I was ok with this. Had it needed a bore, this would've been shipped almost out of state to have the work done as nobody local has j-series torque plates. Before and after measurements taken with a Sunnen bore indicator showed that less than .001" was removed from all six cylinders.

The head bolt taps are made directly into the material about an inch below the cylinders water jackets and therefore minimizing stress transferred into the lower region of the block. From what I could see, they appeared to do one helluva job in "grabbing" the bottom of each cylinder and pulling it into the heads so to speak...almost the other way around from what people normally envision of the heads being squeezed to the block. Especially when studs are used rather than bolts.

Majofo

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

This describes my situation exactly. In the rural wilds of Vermont, there are only american iron shops. The one reputable machine shop is a all around type with no special plates for foreign models.

I was also just sizing to a few ten thousands and was just a Sunnen cylinder hone.

UTAH TSX

I've always wondered why the honda manual tells you to install the main caps and not tighten them untill you have the pistons in and rod bolts torqued, my co worker puts the heads on and torques them first before torquing the crank for that reason ? (we work at Salt Lake City Honda dealer) this out of the manual (on line IN network we have no more books) makes me wonder if they don't want us to see that the crank wont spin freely ?
-
Install the bearings (A) and bearing caps (B) with the arrow (C) facing the timing belt end of the engine.
-
Apply new engine oil to the bolt threads and flanges, then loosely install the bearing cap bolts (D) and bearing cap side bolts (E).
-
Set the crankshaft to bottom dead center (BDC) for the cylinder you are installing the piston in.
-
Apply new engine oil to the piston, inside of the ring compressor, and the cylinder bore.
-
Attach the ring compressor to the piston/connecting rod assembly, and check that the bearing is securely in place.
-
Position the piston/connecting rod assembly with the arrow (A) facing the timing belt side of the engine.
-
Position the piston/connecting rod assembly in the cylinder, and tap it in using the wooden handle of a hammer (A). Maintain downward force on the ring compressor (B) to prevent the rings from expanding before entering the cylinder bore.
-
Stop after the ring compressor pops free, and check the connecting rod-to-crank journal alignment before pushing the piston into place.
-
Measure the diameter of each connecting rod bolt at point A and point B.
-
Calculate the difference in diameter between point A and point B.
-
Point A-Point B = Difference in Diameter
-
Difference in Diameter
Specification:
0-0.1 mm (0-0.004 in.)
-
If the difference in diameter is out of tolerance, replace the connecting rod bolt.
-
Line up the mark (A) on the connecting rod and cap, then install the cap.
-
Apply new engine oil to the bolt threads and flanges. Torque the bolts (B) to 20 N•m (2.0 kgf•m, 14 lbf•ft).
-
Mark the connecting rod (A) and bolt head (B) as shown.
-
Tighten the bolt until the mark on the bolt head lines up with the mark on the connecting rod (turn the bolt 90 º).
-
NOTE: Remove the connecting rod bolt if you tightened it beyond the specified angle, and go back to step 15 of the procedure. Do not loosen it back to the specified angle.
-
Tighten the bearing cap bolts, and then the bearing cap side bolts to the specified torque in the sequence as shown. Repeat the torque sequence again to measure the bolts are properly torqued.
-
Apply a light coat of multipurpose grease to the crankshaft and to the lip of the seal.

I hate cars

The thing that concerns me is that since the head bolts grab down low near the webbing, it can be enough to distort the main webbing and cause the problems experienced. I only wish you guys could bolt the heads on and try the crank again.

Just how hard was it to rotate? With assembly lube on the mains a crank can be very hard to rotate even without the pistons and rods in. It's usually hard to initiate rotation but once it "breaks free" it spins very easy until it stops again. In any of mine, I'm usually not able to rotate just the crank alone from the snout of the crank. If I'm doing it by hand I have to put the pulley on to rotate it and even that can be a little hard.

For what it's worth, using some sort of deck plate even if it's home made is just as important for the final hone as it is for boring. The main caps should be fully torqued as well for boring/honing.

It's pretty normal to have to align bore an aluminum block even if everything is done correctly, it's just how it is with aluminum. It won't necessarily change clearances. You surface the block main bearing surface and the caps, install caps, and align bore it. You're making the holes smaller first and then boring them back to stock size so most of the time standard bearings will still be used and they will all line up with no crank bind.

But always order bearings last, after all machine work is done. On top of that, pistons should be matched to a cylinder and the final hone should be done with that specific piston in mind to "fine tune" clearances since piston tolerances are not always spot on. Rings shouldn't be gapped until after the final hone.

What did you guys set the thrust clearance at? My biggest fear is the blocks might not have been bad.

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

Do the new blocks from Honda come with all machining complete or is a final hone and align bore required? Since they don't sell assembled shortblocks (do they?) I would expect the engine to be close to final assembly to minimize unknown and external labor costs.

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

All the machining is done. They also sell short blocks assembled with crank/rods/pistons.

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

My best guess would be that the short block assembly has a standardized procedure that Honda gives the same info on wether it be for the four or six cylinder engines. On most of Hondas four cylinder engines, you cannot reach the rod bolts unless the main caps are removed....unless you have an extension on the torque wrench and that's a big no-no. Again, this is my best guess. I myself have always wondered the same on wether or not Honda intentionally instructs this on the six cylinder engines as well. Who knows. I still always install the crank first and build from there.

Firstly, I'd like to say in all due respect from one engine guru to another, this is not my first engine build. Trust me when I say all avenues were (at the least) tried before folding the hand. I'm aware of the crank binding lightly and generally put a few rotations after torquing each bolt down until the sequence has completed. Maybe I should tell you that the very last thing that I myself did to the motor before hand delivering it to the machinist was remove a free spinning rotating assembly out of the 15k mile block...of which was removed due to a sticky oil ring on cylinder 3 from a buddy at a dealer. The motor was 100% and before removing the crank from its factory bed of bearings, I clearly recall free spinning that crank very easily by hand and getting several rotations out of it This is how I KNOW that the block was damaged there by them. I'm way too much of a perfectionist on my engine builds and take painstaking steps to ensure the build is done correctly which is why I refused to have the block go beyond the basics of honing and decking. I'd rather replace or purchase a new block than deal with a block that was stressed enough to where either the cylinders have to be bored or decked more than .003" (and services such as align honing) due to excessive wear and/or other service life mishaps like overheating, etc...

As for the bearings I purchased prior to machining, that's a typical thing for any builder to do. How else would I have known the crank was binding unless I installed the crank and bearings into the block? Let me guess, bore dial measurements? I took them prior to installing the bearings and it wasn't until the bindage took place that I began doing more radical angle measurements and seen journal distortion. Up till that point, traditional points of what is measured gave me NO sign of trouble.

Again, I've built many engines and though I'm not offended by your questions and points, you can lighten up on the rookie talk a little please. I appreciate the help and I know you mean well.

Btw, did you ever receive my PM the other day concerning dynamic compression ratio formulation on the engine I was working on? Still waiting on your feedback or opinion on that.

As KN_TL posted, all machine work is done on the bare blocks they sell. On the very latest Earth Dreams j-series (3.5's), the cylinder hones are finished using a plateau honing method that almost makes cylinder break in (aka ring seating) almost nonexistent. Aside from removing most of this delicate process in the engines life, of which doesn't always happen with ideal results, it also reduces most of the friction when used with the curved edge rings. Though the rings are now thinner in size, they can hold much greater pressures that the j35y4's are exhibiting by their 290hp+ numbers....the RLX sits at 310hp.

And yes, they do sell short block assembly's but they do not sell long blocks. The only bad side to this is that nobody gets the opportunity of using an oem Honda engine with the head gaskets installed already. This means that the heads must be installed by a person and not the equipment normally used in manufacturing that simultaneously tightens each bolt at an even pace thereby crushing the gasket perfectly ensuring a longstanding, error proof installation. If nobody knows why this is such a big deal, prior to auto makers using this process of installing heads, it was a common thing to see head gasket failures at any point in the life of the engine. Think about, though it happens, Honda (especially) doesn't have much of an issue anymore due to this as well as the use of MLS gaskets.

Any engine builder will tell you that when installing heads, make as many small increments as you can from beginning to end during the torque procedure. This will make a massive difference in the reliability and service life of the gaskets.

I hate cars

I think the more people looking at the problem the better. Sometimes one person will pick up on something the other overlooked. There are a few I can think of off the top of my head that haven't been mentioned yet.
The crank spinning freely before removal doesn't mean the shop messed anything up. Think about what it would take for the shop to distort the main webbing of the block. It's almost impossible. I would have an easier time blaming the shop if you had loosened the main caps and then retorqued. If the crank still spun freely then I would begin assigning blame somewhere else. On a seasoned engine it's not abnormal to have the block change just by loosening the mains. In fact, it's somewhat normal in aluminum block engines to have things shift after loosening the mains for the first time which is why I automatically get the mains at least align honed. If the block shifted after dis-assembly, that's actually a good thing and I would use this block over a brand new one if we're talking a very high hp application.

Factor in cap walk and there's the potential for binding to occur after loosening and then re-tightening the mains without ever removing the crank. Just the torque sequence of the mains can cause things to bind up. I hate bringing up rookie problems but it's easy to screw up side bolted mains if done wrong. I torque the main bolts down first, before the side bolts, regardless of what the manufacturer suggests (what does Honda suggest?). The steel/iron/whatever main caps will hold the main webbing straight even though after hundreds of thermal cycles it now wants to shift slightly (and it does as soon as the mains are loosened). "Stress" as in compression and tension in the block is almost a non factor at 250-350hp. It's the normal thermal cycles that cause things to distort.

I'm the opposite, I won't run a factory block of any brand without machine work because it allows me to tailor it to the way I want it built and I've seen less than perfect factory machining. On an open deck I like to have the cylinders sit up .001" more than the "deck" on turbo and nitrous applications. It gives better headgasket retention and reduces cylinder movement. You don't get this straight out of the box from the factory.

There can also be a lot said for a "seasoned" block. It's a sort of natural stress relief and definitely not a bad thing if the mains shifted slightly. It's likely under less "stress" in that area than a brand new block.

As a perfectionist, the line bore should be checked even on a factory new block. A good accurate flat bar should be laid in the bearings and any gaps will be evident, or you can run a light hone through them. A dial bore gauge will not pick this up. If things aren't in a straight line, the fix is super easy and it doesn't change the size of the holes nor does it require additional parts. The labor is pretty cheap as well. It gets re-bored and it's done. You can even make the holes smaller if needed with an align bore to help perfect bearing seating and clearance.
Wait, so did you find a journal that was out of round?

The bearings can be bought prior to machine work, I'm not disagreeing. But many times something is going to be off once you start blueprinting that's not visible by eye. Determine if the crank needs to be cut. Once that's done the bearings can be installed and everything torqued. Once torqued, the mains are mic'd with the bearings in and the crank journal is polished to give the desired clearance. For a long life high hp engine, the crank should always be polished to give the proper bearing clearance as should the cylinders have the final hone done based on the actual piston that's going in that particular hole. I see too many people trying to "adjust" bottom end clearances the wrong way....
It's usually the simple things that get us. I'm definitely not above a rookie mistake. I had already built many engines and still managed to put a cam gear on backwards and smack every valve and piston. I'm also leaving a lot of potentially missed engine building steps out in the interest of keeping the peace.

The thing I'm most curious about is what was the thrust clearance set at?
Yeah, I need to go back and read it again. You were wondering about the discrepancy of published mechanical compression ratio vs measured, right?

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

This line made me end my side of the discussion. Not sure if you think you're trying to aid in this build thread or if you're merely arguing points you refuse to listen to.

I am an engine builder. I am NOT a machinist. As with most engine builders, I take the block to a machinist and rely on him to properly execute his duties on the block. This includes performing the services I've requested as well as checking the block for any other flaws before the block leaves. Clearly, once I received the block back I was expecting to have the block prepped for the installation of the rotating assembly. It's not my duty to ensure the crank main journals are aligned properly, that's why I paid him to do the work...he's the one with the proper equipment to ensure this.

I don't want to keep going back and fourth about how things may of happened or hypothesize about meaningless possibilities on my end or his. I think my point is very clear here. I'd rather sacrifice a short block for my customer and keep the situation where it needs to be and levels out the repercussions that would eventually end up back out of his wallet. And to me, that's all that matters.

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

Normally, I'd probably be one of the first to think Matt was arguing for the sake of arguing or criticizing, but in this thread, all I saw was helpful offerings and suggestions. Perhaps it is the nature of the internet where one's tone can't be gleaned from writing. I don't think you need to go on the defense on this, as I didn't see anything Matt said as critical. It appeared his interest was in potentially salvaging an expensive venture.

You also don't need to defend your position. In my eyes, regardless of fault (irrelevant here) you have a solution for the customer, so that's what matters.

I'm curious - is this to be an N/A build? I assume so only because of the use of all OEM internals. If that's the case, what was the purpose/benefit of rebuilding the J37? I apologize if I missed it previously in the thread. I saw you had the pistons coated, but that's obviously not done on the new shortblock from Honda, so I assume that was merely done because of opportunity and not necessary for this build? Will the difference in bore and stroke affect the rest of the planning on the engine?

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

You sir are correct. My apologies to IHC for becoming defensive. I think I'm more upset about the situation than I portray to be. Thanks for the response and let's move on here with things.

Yes, the full intent of the build was and is NA. We decided on ceramic coatings because it's a cheap and easy way to protect the engine against a few things like heat and detonation, not to mention you gain more efficiency from the added heat to the combustion process. I cannot coat the pistons unless the engine is dismantled but we will still coat the chambers. As for the bore and stroke affecting other aspects of the build, no. The cams are actually ground and designed for a 3.5. We will however need to take a few thou off the heads to bring compression back up from 10:1 to 11:1.

Majofo

The purpose.. because they can.

C2CuSn07 TL

How bout some pics?

kingkord777

How much does a j37 swap cost normaly?

Majofo

As if a J37 swap is normally done..

bdbconcepts

Robert

how much is the short block j32a3?

I would like to buy one...

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

From the factory is a little over $2.2K

Acura Parts @ AcuraOEMparts.com - Genuine Acura OEM Parts from Delray Acura

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

btw, I noticed in the water jacket that the factory grease is still there. You didn't power wash or machine clean the block before assembly? Or did you just clean the oil passages?

I picked up a block cleaning kit that has a ton of sizes and 4 cans of brake cleaner, but I was also going to power wash and blow out the block beforehand.

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

There's quite possibly hundreds of factors and numerous methods of doing this. Can you be a bit more specific?

Are we talking a new or used short block? I have several j32a3's in stock but they're all used and I generally get anywhere between $300-$500 (+shipping) depending on the mileage. IMO, if you're swapping the motor anyways, you might as well do a 3.5 and gain that extra bit of power. Really not much of a difference in regards to price either way you go.

Lol, they make block cleaning kits??? That's hilarious.

The engine pictured above was literally right after removing it out of the crate (hence the green plastic wrap that's seen) and I just wiped the pistons off to show their domes. I normally wipe both the cooling jackets and the cylinders out with lint free cloths and then follow that with taking the pistons to bottom dead center (BDC) to spray the cylinders, pistons and rings out with brake cleaner. Before moving forward and taking the next cylinders to BDC, I coat the just cleaned cylinders with conventional SAE 30W oil so the rings don't scratch the bare walls. Also, all main and rod caps are removed to add non-moly assembly lube so there's no chance of a dry startup.

Here are a few specs of the j35z3 that I've taken from Jesse's motor:

Deck height 9.25"
Piston to deck clearance .006" (below)
Piston dish volume -7cc

KN_TL

iTrader: (3)

This is what I am talking about:



I didn't realize you bought a full short block. Thought you just picked up a block.

I hate cars

I've been biting my tongue through this thing because I don't want to ruin the thread and you dont seem to want advice, but since you seem to be doing it for customers I'll try one more time. I'll say once again that this isn't a pissing contest but some things are not being done or not being done correctly that should be done to any engine no matter what the use is. I'm not trying to assign blame on the "ruined" blocks but rather show that they're not ruined and are perfectly fine for high hp turbo use, better so than a factory new block and that they definitely should not be thrown out. I gave a lot of advice and explained why the mains shift and why it's normal and it was completely ignored it. Instead you just got defensive for no reason and ignored everything instead of at least debating it. Every time I have a technical point you change the subject or just ignore it.




I haven't seen your side. You blamed the machinist for screwing up the blocks and I attempted to explain that there's pretty much nothing they can do to cause the problem you're accusing them of and that it's normal for the block to distort once the mains are pulled. This isn't some crazy theory, it's pretty normal.



Here's the problem. As a BUILDER, it is your duty to ensure all work is properly done including the mains being aligned properly. No engine builder I've met has relied on the machine shop to prep the block for assembly. The machinist operates the equipment and he follows your instruction and uses your spec, and it's your job to check his work otherwise you're an just an engine assembler. A true engine builder blueprints engines. I thought you blueprinted your engines but it sounds like you just assemble them. Are you really going to blame the machine shop if an engine grenades down the road when you're the one that assembled it and had the final say? How would that sound to the customer? It's actually a very good thing that the mains were so far off that the crank bound up (or was it the thrust bearing?????). This is the perfect way to end up with a broken crank down the road or best case scenario some seriously worn main bearings.

I learned through trial and error not to just tell the crank guy what to cut the crank to and when I get it back just slap the crank in the block and call it good because that's a good way to lose an engine. I used to tell the crank guy to polish the crank or cut it .001" or .01" or whatever it needed. I used to take the crank back and slap it into the block and call it good. That will work in low hp applications sometimes. However, I don't like excuses nor do customers so when something goes wrong with the engine, blaming the machinist does not cut it. You have to check EVERYTHING before and after assembly.

Over the years I've changed how I communicate with the machine shop to ensure everything is perfect and tolerances are kept down to .00001" at worst. At first I learned to give him my mic I used to measure the crank and block and tell him what dimensions I wanted. This worked much better when the same mic is used by the machine shop as is used by me to blueprint the engine. Now I tell him how much I want taken off of each journal. This can only be done once all machining on the block is complete including align boring if needed. This is the only way to do it right.

When I built my first few engines, there was a good .001" of difference in main and rod bearing clearances and even more in piston to cylinder clearances after getting everything back from the machine shop so this is why I do it the way I do it now. It's normal to have to take things back to the machine shop more than once to be redone. On my personal engines I borrow a lathe and I polish each journal to get the exact clearance I want after each rod has been re-sized and mic'd.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yungone501

I don't want to keep going back and fourth about how things may of happened or hypothesize about meaningless possibilities on my end or his. I think my point is very clear here. I'd rather sacrifice a short block for my customer and keep the situation where it needs to be and levels out the repercussions that would eventually end up back out of his wallet. And to me, that's all that matters.

This is what you're not getting. Nothing had to be "sacrificed", you condemned a good block. If all measurements had been taken and machine work done in the right order, this never would have happened. This needs to be said not to piss you off but to help you out in the future. The second part to this is the used block is probably superior to the new block once the align bore has been performed. For your sake I truly hope you saved the "bad" block for a future high hp turbo build as it will be perfect. My original point was not to assign blame, it was to help you understand why the mains were out of alignment and to save you money in the future but you made it into a pissing contest. I also hope no additional cost was passed to the customer. A $50 align bore, sure. A new block, no way. I'm honestly trying to help you to take the right steps in the right order for the future but you take it as some sort of challenge.



Yep. Usually rifle cleaning brushes of different sizes and lengths. These things should always be final cleaned with Dawn and high pressure water with the brushes used in all oil passages and cylinders should be heavily scrubbed with warm water and soap, compressed air to blow every passage, bolt hole, crevice out, then some sort of brake cleen product (one that doesn't leave a residue like a MAF cleaner) on the cylinders and immediately sprayed with WD-40 or you choice to avoid the rust that will happen almost immediately. A thorough cleaning of the cylinders after the final hone is one of the most important steps for long engine life and proper ring seating and cleanliness is one reason I don't like using pre-assembled short blocks. I like having control over everything.

Why do you use a non moly lube (I'm genuinely curious, not trying to say you're wrong) and do factory shortblocks actually come with no lube on the bearings?
.006" is pretty damn far from the top. On a low rpm street engine using steel rods, you want that to be as close to zero as possible. .002" is playing it very safe. On my turbo engines that spin less rpm and have less rod tension due to boost pressure and more exhaust backpressure, I set it at .0005" deck. It doesn't hurt as bad when naturally aspirated but it helps significantly in detonation suppression in a turbo engine. In fact, it helps a lot more to get the machining right and obtain a zero deck than spending money on coatings. Speaking of coatings, I've had significantly better luck with simple bead blasting of the pistons than any coating I've ever run as far as wear and scuffing go. I stopped using coatings years ago because even on some of the 1,500hp+ V6s I've built I've never seen an advantage whether it's efficiency, wear, detonation resistance, etc. Most "coatings" in OEM applications are used as a shortcut to get tolerances down.

If this is the engine that needs a bump in compression, I would tear it down and deck it instead of removing material from the heads to kill two birds with one stone. More quench area means better efficiency, lower emissions, and less chance of detonation so decking is the only thing that makes sense. Also, an align bore will move the crank and therefore the pistons up slightly in the block which does the same thing as decking it in regards to what I just mentioned, another reason why the used block with an align bore might have been a good choice.


I wanted to point this out, showing that machine work was done in the wrong order. I'm glad you did not pass the cost onto the customer, that shows integrity on your part. I also want to point out that while you think the machine shop did something to ruin the block you have no theory as to what they could have done. While giving the customer a short block is a good gesture, it's also based on your mistake. Again, I'm not trying to do anything other than shed light on the situation.

How many times have I asked what the thrust clearance was set at in regards to the crank binding and there's been no answer. I can only wonder if you actually measured thrust clearance. I have a ton of questions such as why you would limit your decking to .003" when your customer's engine above needs more compression and the pistons sit .006" below deck but I suspect I won't get an answer to anything too technical.

I know this won't be well received but I'm trying to tell you in the nicest way I know how that you have a little to learn about engine building. There's nothing wrong with that, we all started somewhere and I screwed up my fair share but going around with the attitude that you already know everything and getting defensive and shutting down when someone tries to help you won't get you very far. To be completely honest I would not be building engines for other people just yet. Luckily the J series has no special issues so building it is pretty straight forward and it's hard to screw up.

I know I probably wasted my time with this whole thing and in the beginning I was going to lay out everything I had a question about, I decided not to because I know the kind of response it will get. Good luck with the build, I hope it all turns out well for you and your customers.


Also, I didn't mean to put all of that in bold up there, but I don't have time to go back and fix it.

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

Matt, to make sure we (I) understand, your thought is that a new align bore would resolve the issue, correct? That would then require new bearings and clearance checking, correct? If so, it seems that would be the cheaper option as opposed to a brand new shortblock.

To be clear, I'm not asking to instigate drama, but to learn. When you say that the machine work was done in the wrong order, can you list what the proper order would be? I know you say that the J series isn't a 'special case' but if torque plates are needed, and most shops don't have them, wouldn't they need to be custom fabbed, or find a machine shop that does? That leads me to think it would be at least a niche market for shops that are able to do proper work.

The one thing I don't quite understand though, and perhaps it's because I've not contracted someone to build me a motor before - is it typical to have your engine builder not be the ultimate responsible party? Robert definitely is taking care of the customer, and while that is to be commended, I would also figure it to be expected. I guess I liken it to ordering a stroker kit from Lingenfelter and having them call me and say the machine shop screwed up. My first thought would be that I don't care, because I'm purchasing a motor from them and it's on them to resolve with the machine shop.

Perhaps it has to do with payments, i.e. customer pays machine shop directly, and pays builder seperately. If that's the case though, I'd have to agree that is nothing more than assembly.

On another note, doesn't head milling, even if ever so slightly, change cam timing? The align bore wouldn't suffer from that, but wouldn't decking the block?

mzilvar

iTrader: (3)

I'm curious now why the J35Z3 accord engine when compression is a full point lower compared to the J35A8? From OP's sig it looks like a NA build?

Will his trans bolt up to this block?

Are the oil passages the same?

I know the entire rocker arrangement for VTEC is completely different as are the cams, I suppose if you bolt the J37A1 heads on that would take care of that, ideally, provided the oil passages match up and the crank sensor, gear and trigger and all are the same.

I'm confused as to how this block is an upgrade over his J35A8 that generates more power than the J35Z3. Why not use a J35A8 rotating assembly and just do the heads/cams if your intention is a NA build and the 3.7L idea is being scrubbed?

I, personally, think the J35Z3 is going to add more complexity and trouble than it's worth.

I did some reading a while back about head milling and read that it does alter the cam timing, I also spoke with a shop that I was going to work with about it and they also stated that. Depending on how much is taken off it retards the timing due to the change in timing belt geometry and the length of the belt between the two sides, which results in a loss of power (lower dynamic compression). That's the reason I had looked at having chambers cold-welded, to get the compression bump without taking anything off the heads (except to get back to flat) and also alter the quench at the same time with the clover-shaped chambers.

TacoBello

Wow, there is some crazy terminology being used here. Is there anywhere an average Joe like me can read up and learn a little bit about building engines and understand the things you guys are talking about, right from the basic of basics?

I understand a lot of this may probably be "learn by doing", but I'd just like to be able to have a little bit of knowledge on the matter. I have no intentions of actually building an engine as I don't have the resources, time, or money to do so.

Interested to see how all of this works out!

I hate cars

I regret making that last post, I have nothing against Yungone or anyone so I apologize in advance for whatever may come. I'm honestly just a tech nerd that has done a lot of experimenting and a lot of screw ups too. I believe Yungone is in no way trying to screw anyone or do a less than perfect job. I mainly just wanted to help, maybe PM would have been the best way.

The line bore should correct the seized crank problem. If done correctly by a good shop, main bearing clearances don't have to change. The bearing bore can actually be made the same size as before the bore. In fact, it's normal to make the holes smaller and then bored to the same size as before and in a straight line obviously.

The line bore can move the crank up in the block. It's rarely ever enough to be an issue. The only time I've ever seen a problem was in a traditional cam in block design where a shorter timing chain had to be used because the crank moved closer to the cam.

Degreeing the cam(s) obviously take care of any potential problems with any milling/decking but you're right about it affecting timing. I've never seen a noticeable change in cam timing but I know it exists. I don't see people degreeing in the cams in these cars as they usually do with a traditional cam in block design. I don't know what the reason is for this. I'm surprised adjustible cam gears are not more popular. Too poor to afford cams, but you want to optimize your newly ported heads, throw on adjustible cam gears and advance the cams for a little more high rpm breathing.

About the order, I'll get back with you tomorrow. I'm getting in trouble for being on my phone right now. But basically you make sure the mains are straight before worrying about their clearance just because of situations like this.

And as I said, the condemned blocks are now stress relived which is why they shifted so its a good thing if you're planning on pushing its limits assuming it's not so far off that the align bore can't bring it back straight.

I hate cars

While I'm usually the one saying people over complicate things, I would not think of altering combustion chamber shape other than milling of the heads. These are highly optimized from the factory and you can end up with very bad results. Plus there's cooling and hot spot issues as well.

The cam timing is altered so little it really doesn't matter but if you're worried, a set of adjustible cam gears would bring things back to stock. To put it in perspective, a lot of people mill their heads with no adverse affects ever reported on here. The belt naturally stretches a little over time as well.

I think it's great that people are starting to pay attention to these things including quench, and while I think it would be a very bad idea to alter the combustion chamber, I would love to see how it turns out.

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Lmao, you're getting out of control here!

I've never said the block was "ruined" to begin with. I just said that I PREFER not to use it if machining has gone beyond honing or decking. This is a matter of preference and quite honestly I feel like you may be the one in a pissing contest judging by your paragraphic breakdowns you keep posting on my responses. And yes, I do ignore a lot of what you say because you fail to comprehend what I've been trying to explain from the get go. To me, it doesn't really matter at all on how the damn mains are distorted. What matters is simply finding an effective solution for my customer and I and resolving the problem quickly enough with as little risk as possible to the engines overall reliability factor and costs.

I've built plenty of j-series to know that the problem I've encountered is not a normal thing to occur for these engines. Hell, even during the tear down phase of my last three boosted engines I encountered no issues with main journal alignment...and one of them (the first one) flung a rod after the engine endured nearly 650 horses. Your ideas and concepts are collective over other types of engines (namely domestic from what I've seen) and from the track (which is respectable) but are not 100% compatible with everything you give response to.

As for your self defined explanation of a machinist, HUH?!?! If I drop off a block to ANY machinist and say "the block needs a hone/deck but check everything else out and let me know if there's any issues elsewhere", it's not his fault if something is wrong with the block? You don't make any sense man, sorry. And a "true" engine builder blueprints engines, umm, yeah....point being? Don't you remember me saying that the block I took to him was in excellent shape? You think I said that because someone I bought it from told me that and also because the aluminum was shiny? Seriously.

Last one and then I'm finished here. The motors deck clearance is set at .006". I need to raise the compression a full point here. My quench clearance between it and the piston is .043". I can shave the head within spec and still manage to pull nearly a full point of compression out of it and have meat to spare. As for the ceramic coatings, dude really, wasting money? I do all the coatings on the motors I build in house so please save it and take it elsewhere.

Now that I've wasted a precious 10 minutes of my life responding to all your "helpful advice", I'd like to close by saying please resist the ever so tempting urge you may have to respond back to me. I really don't need the feedback nor some guy telling me how to build an engine or what I've done wrong. Not that I'm the best engine builder in existence but this is one of the only issues I've ever experienced in a build and it's an issue that I'm certain the machine shop created.

Cheaper option, sure. The machining services and reliabilities I involve with any of my engines, definitely not.

I look at it like this, the customer could go out and pay $1600 for an engine built and assembled by Honda and be almost absolutely assured that he/she will have zero issues with it. Instead, they've hired me to build them the same engine sometimes tweaked and sometimes stock for less, more or the same amount of money depending on build details. If I'm building their engine and I'm using parts (in this case a block) that's requiring corrective services to be performed to the block due to the material distortion, unusual service life issues (ie: overheating), other physical damages or issues (ie: machine shop mistakes), then I've effectively cheated that customer out of something they SHOULD have gotten in the first place. Engines today aren't manufactured like they were years ago where there's plenty of material to be taken from or made from iron (specifically imports) and this makes out for a not so ideal candidate on machining services that require numerous stages of essentially removing material here and there just to get things back to where they need to be (aka- being within spec). This of course weakens the overall integrity of the block even when things are done by something called service limits. Service limits are basically boundaries given by the manufacturer that say removing beyond a certain amount of material (which is normally VERY little to begin with) can be disastrous if done. And even if you're not at the limit yet, who wants to be close to a limit when buying an engine?

As for the question on who would be the ultimate responsible party, its simple. The person you paid asked to build the engine. You're relying on his skills, resources, machinists, knowledge 100%. Its risky and that's more of a reason for the builder to be vigilant on anything involved with the build. All things must come together perfectly during assembly and when all of those factors are solid, the customer ends up with a reliable engine.

And yes, milling a head beyond spec can create issues as you described. Key word there is "beyond". I always keep things moderate on that level. I never build an engine with a limit met or exceeded. You're asking for a financial and reputation disaster when you incorporate the ideal of building an engine with a limit met anywhere in it.

The j35z3 from the 6MT uses a 10.0:1 compression ratio. That makes it one full point lower than the j35a8.

Jesse drives an 07 TL 3.2 (not a 3.5) of which carries the new bell housing bolt pattern like that of the j35a8. And because the j35z3 and the j35a8 share the same bolt pattern, that makes the engine compatible with his car.

And what about the j35z3 is so complex exactly? How did you reach this conclusion? It's basically the same motor as a j35a8 with a point lower in compression. As for the cam timing, this is true but the milling will be (as mentioned) within spec which makes the change nearly undetectable not to mention Jesse's car will be tuned with FlashPro and this will give him ultimate control over timing and fuel.

The internet is the most useful tool you (and myself) have when learning. I've spent lots of time conducting research on just about everything that has to do with an engine and then broke those all down ten fold. To me, it's a consumable passion and hobby so doing that sort of research is nothing. It's also my career and profession which means when I'm not with my family, I'm ALWAYS with cars. If the desire is there and its big enough, learning is no longer a difficult thing. It becomes fun and desirable. Read until you can't read anymore. Lol

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

looks like IHC is starting trouble again. Just like when he called out kingkong_dav. lol

Back to the build thread and no more essay please

pohljm

The detailed essays are good and welcomed by many

I hate cars

Starting trouble? I guess ignorance is bliss. Some things are right and wrong, black and white and this is one of those situations where something is being done wrong. It doesn't have to become personal, that's only for the weak minded like yourself that are not able to comprehend what I say.

If you were capable of comprehending you might come back and refute what I said with some tech of your own as Yungone attempted to do.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

I read it. Its good information, but he know what he is doing. So let him be and lets continue on with the build.

mzilvar

iTrader: (3)

Well good luck, the oil pumps look the same, but on the J35Z3 the crank sensor actually goes through the rear of the oil pan near the firewall side of the engine.

Since the pump looks similar I'd guess the crank sensor off a 3G should be able to bolt up to it but that trigger wheel on the crank is probably going to be useless, the older TL ECM isn't going to be able to do anything with it and it's an experiment to see if it will by trying the J35Z3 crank sensor with a J32A3 ECM.

If you notice on the J35Z3 where the crank sensor is on the J32A3 & J35A8 there isn't one, it has a timing belt plate stopper and no sensor on the oil pump by the timing belt drive pulley since the CKP sensor goes through the oil pan and triggers off the pulser plate that is attached to the crank vice the timing belt drive pulley like on the 3G TL.

If sensors and triggering are different the older ECM won't be able to accurately get the timing of the rotating assembly.

It could be as simple as using the J35A8 timing belt pulley and CKP sensor though as well as the J35A8 oil pan or plug the hole where the J35Z3 CKP sensor goes through.

I also thought he had a TL-S, didn't realize it's a 3.2L.

It just seems to me a J35A8 is a better starting point than a J35Z3 not only power wise, but also as far as knowing it'll be compatible with the 3G TL.

I hate cars

The internet is a source but be very careful and discriminating, I see so much crap out there on a well done webpage that people believe as gospel based on looks. Honestly, a book is probably a better source. The internet is full of internet experts that gained their education from the internet. Most of the time if someone has a book published, they're probably going to be a subject material expert.

The internet isn't evil, just be careful of what you believe and look at as many different sites as possible and compare information. I'll be glad to help as well.

I hate cars

Maybe you didn't say it was ruined but here is your quote regarding the block in question:

Quote:

Originally Posted by yungone501

Block is more than likely going to be thrown in the back as scrap aluminum.

Would you scrap a good block?

Quote:

Originally Posted by yungone501

I just said that I PREFER not to use it if machining has gone beyond honing or decking. This is a matter of preference and quite honestly I feel like you may be the one in a pissing contest judging by your paragraphic breakdowns you keep posting on my responses.

It's only preference because you don't know what's involved in align boring and other normal machine work. I've never heard of anyone ever condemning a block if you have to go beyond decking and honing. That's a waste of materials.

I've learned to break it down because people mis-quote me and twist my words in every thread. This way it's much harder to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yungone501

And yes, I do ignore a lot of what you say because you fail to comprehend what I've been trying to explain from the get go. To me, it doesn't really matter at all on how the damn mains are distorted. What matters is simply finding an effective solution for my customer and I and resolving the problem quickly enough with as little risk as possible to the engines overall reliability factor and costs.

You don't care to understand the cause of the mains distorting??? Wow. If you had checked everything out after disassembly you could have paid an additional $50 to the machine shop to have it align bored. It would have cost little to no additional time and very little money. Instead you had other machining done, got it back and checked clearances and then discovered the crank won't turn only after attempting to assemble it. Which way is more efficient?

Quote:

Originally Posted by yungone501

I've built plenty of j-series to know that the problem I've encountered is not a normal thing to occur for these engines. Hell, even during the tear down phase of my last three boosted engines I encountered no issues with main journal alignment...and one of them (the first one) flung a rod after the engine endured nearly 650 horses. Your ideas and concepts are collective over other types of engines (namely domestic from what I've seen) and from the track (which is respectable) but are not 100% compatible with everything you give response to.

99% of everything I've built has been high hp street engines. I don't know what you're talking about but I can tell you the last 602whp engine in my car was when it was my daily that commuted 210mile round trip to work everyday. It was a very, very mild build that was dead ass reliable using 90% stock parts that went over 60,000 miles without a hiccup while running 10.60s on the weekends with only a tire change (no race gas, only methanol) not at full hp but still a true mid 10s car that commuted to work everyday. Try this with a cast iron crank, two bolt mains, paper thin cylinders, the world's worst oiling system, and see how long one of your builds lasts. You have a far superior bottom end in regards to strength to work with and you're still screwing it up.

This shows again you're not comprehending anything I've tried to tell you:

As I said, the mains (in the TL at this hp) don't shift from high hp. I said that in the beginning, go back and read. What I said is the block shifts from repeated thermal cycles as it "destresses". The steel main caps hold everything in place until you tear it down and the block is allowed to distort. THIS IS NOT A BAD THING. You said you encountered no issues with main journal alignment in your last 3 engines.... Did you have the alignment checked??? Or did you call it good because the crank wasn't frozen up? The crank is not a go-no go gauge lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yungone501

As for your self defined explanation of a machinist, HUH?!?! If I drop off a block to ANY machinist and say "the block needs a hone/deck but check everything else out and let me know if there's any issues elsewhere", it's not his fault if something is wrong with the block?

I defined an engine builder vs engine assembler, nothing about a machinist.

No, it's not his fault. By you saying "check everything else out and let me know if there's any issues elsewhere" just shows you're an amateur and most likely he treated you as such. You don't tell a machine shop "check everything out". You give specific instructions on what you want checked out. How are they supposed to know what to check out? How are they supposed to know the clearances being used? How are they supposed to know the acceptable tolerance when as shown by this thread some people have much higher standards than others. How far exactly are they supposed to go into "checking it out". Do they stop at a simple "yep the cylinders are within spec" or do they sonic check for cylinder thickness, main alignment, do they "Magnaflux" (with dyes) to check for stress cracks in the block? You're talking the difference in $100 and $1,000 worth of "checking it out".

YOU as the builder check the block out and then YOU take it in and tell the machinist what to do based on what you found upon teardown. No one I've ever known does what you do unless it's some backyard redneck that knows nothing about engine building but wants his 350 Chevy rebuilt for $500. A machinist follows an engine builder's orders.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yungone501

You don't make any sense man, sorry. And a "true" engine builder blueprints engines, umm, yeah....point being? Don't you remember me saying that the block I took to him was in excellent shape? You think I said that because someone I bought it from told me that and also because the aluminum was shiny? Seriously.

Yes, you blueprint every single clearance. I have a sheet from the engine that's in the GN right now that shows every clearance from rods and mains to deck to lifter preload to thrust bearing clearance, rod side clearance, ring gap, ring land clearance, piston to cylinder clearance in several different places, EVERYTHING. And I go a step farther on my personal engines and I weigh rings and rod and main bearings so I can see what exactly is wearing and how it's wearing if I tear it apart.

How did you determine it was in excellent shape? Did you check deck flatness, did you check if the main bearing saddles are true? Did you check any other dimensions of the block? No, you didn't. You took a block that looked good to the naked eye and determined it was in excellent shape by looking at it. If I'm wrong in my assumption, correct me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yungone501

Last one and then I'm finished here. The motors deck clearance is set at .006". I need to raise the compression a full point here. My quench clearance between it and the piston is .043". I can shave the head within spec and still manage to pull nearly a full point of compression out of it and have meat to spare. As for the ceramic coatings, dude really, wasting money? I do all the coatings on the motors I build in house so please save it and take it elsewhere.

So you would rather mill the heads than deck the block when the pistons are sitting so far down in the hole??? Wow. You get a much larger change in quench area when you deck the block than milling the heads. Both ways will get you the compression bump but one way is far superior but will cost you more time and money since the engine is already assembled (again, wrong order of things).

As for coatings, on a 300whp V6 you gain nothing other than a lighter wallet. In theory they can help but in real life you will never measure a gain. As I said and as you ignored you can get better wear results by a simple and free bead blasting. If there was even the slightest bump in efficiency which would translate to better mpg, the factory would be on it. I didn't coat my old 602rwhp daily driver and it's really not an issue until you get into cars that make serious power that area run hard for extended periods of time and it's not for efficiency, it's to protect aluminum which is iffy at best. It's certainly not something I would charge a customer for. Why don't you focus on getting your pistons at least somewhere in the vicinity of the deck before investing in coatings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yungone501

Now that I've wasted a precious 10 minutes of my life responding to all your "helpful advice", I'd like to close by saying please resist the ever so tempting urge you may have to respond back to me. I really don't need the feedback nor some guy telling me how to build an engine or what I've done wrong. Not that I'm the best engine builder in existence but this is one of the only issues I've ever experienced in a build and it's an issue that I'm certain the machine shop created.

Of course you don't want to hear back from me because I pointed out a few glaring and rookie mistakes that you are unwilling to acknowledge. You built an engine with the mains so out of alignment that the crank wouldn't spin, you should be embarrassed but instead you blame it on someone else. Now what if they had been off just a little less where the crank would have spun but still off? You customer would have gotten a pile of junk that would have no oil pressure or a broken crank in under 10,000 miles. The only reason it was caught was it was so far off you couldn't ignore it, not because you took the proper steps to ensure everything was within spec.

You're going to ignore any of the technical side because you have no answer. You're going to make childish comments because you don't want to hear what you're doing wrong to customers engines. There are things that can be subjective in engine building or personal preferences but the things I've pointed out are mistakes, not a difference of opinion.

Again, tell me, WHAT CAN A MACHINE SHOP DO DURING A HONE TO MAKE THE MAINS OUT OF ALIGNMENT???? There's nothing! Nothing at all they can do. You missed it because you half ass your "builds". And again an align bore is $50 fucking dollars and it's a normal part of machining a high performance engine. You're trying to make it out like it's some band aid fix. The factory align bores these engines after casting. It's normal. If your engine had actually had the cylinders bored out, there's one way the machine shop could have screwed up the mains but they would have to be the worst machine shop on the planet to do it by using the wrong sized or damaged bore bar through the mains or whatever they call it. If this were the case, it should be visible with the naked eye, there will be damage to the block and caps at the saddles. Maybe you put a bearing in backwards.

The only cheating being done is building a customer an engine that's half assed where you're relying on luck to ensure everything is right. As I said previously, stick with pre built Honda shortblocks, you do not have the necessary skills and knowledge to do work for other people. Why does everyone think they're an expert by reading the internet? What's wrong with knowing your place and sticking with something on your skill level. I didn't feel comfortable building engines for other people until I had successfully built and run several in my own cars and a couple close friends that went over 50,000 miles making 600+hp and working under some of the top guys in the industry that taught me and helped me along the way and that I could call up for advice when I wasn't 100% sure about something. I still don't do many engines for other people, only for friends and myself and I've had years and years of experience at a much higher level.

And again, YOU DID NOT CHECK THE MAINS AFTER YOU LOOSENED THE CAPS SO YOU DO NOT KNOW THAT BLOCK WAS GOOD WHEN IT WENT TO THE MACHINE SHOP. I would bet a paycheck that the block distorted the second you loosened the mains. Stop blaming the machine shop for something you missed that they couldn't possibly have caused. You have not proved the machine shop did anything wrong yet you continue to put the blame on them. You don't say the machine shop "probably" or "possibly" messed it up. You say they did mess it up as if you know for sure when you don't.

Last, what are you providing the customer that goes above and beyond buying a factory shortblock? Why would a customer rely on you to build an engine over Honda when the cost is about the same?

Oh really? Aluminum is nearly infinitely repairable and much easier to machine than cast iron. The J series uses a TON more material around the cylinders and in the main webbing, main caps, in the valley, pretty much everywhere than most domestics or imports from years ago. MOST engines today use a LOT more meat in highly stressed areas and are just all around better today. You show your ignorance when you say dumb shit like this. I would give anything for my GN to have a block like the J series has.

Would you like me to tell you why years ago most engines were two bolt mains even when making over 400hp from the factory with thin cylinders and little main bearing webbing and little to no valley reinforcements??? Why my GN has a split throw cast iron crank that looks like it would break with 200hp on it and 2 bolt mains, no valley bracing, while the 258hp TL has a forged steel crank and 6 bolt mains, thick siamesed cylinders, and a very well braced valley? NVH. The stronger the bottom end is, the less NVH you get. For the hot rodder this is awesome as we now have bottom ends that will survive 1,000hp in stock form in some cars without ever pulling the engine. So what you just said is not just untrue, it's the opposite of reality.

Tell me, what "machining services" will hurt an engine? Where is material being moved from "here and there"? You're purposely being vague.
WHAT weakens the overall integrity of the block? Be specific. What "service limit" would be violated by align boring? Have you seen how much meat is in the main webbing and main cap area???? Do you know how an align bore is done? You take a few THOUSANDTHS of an inch from the thickness of the caps and block mating surface and then boring them again. You lose NOTHING in the way of strength. When was the last time a J-series broke a main cap or pushed the crank out of the block? Never.

You base some of your decisions on the intended usage of the engine. You can get away with a hell of a lot more on a NA build than a turbo build. I would have no issues boring cylinders to their service limit in a NA build that's making under 400hp. For a turbo build I would want as little material removed from the cylinders as possible even at just 400hp.

What you don't realize is the cylinder pressures are greater for a turbo engine making 400hp than a NA build making 400hp based on the assumption the NA build will have to spin more rpm to make the hp. You have less peak cylinder pressure but it occurs more times per second NA. For the turbo you have more peak cylinder pressure but fewer times per second. This is just one of the many things to take into consideration when planning a build.

Yes, you play it safe because you don't understand much of what you're doing. I think you're doing the right thing, seriously. If I didn't understand what I was doing and why or I didn't understand why the mains were out of alignment I would also buy a new block and start over. So while you may not admit it, even to yourself, at least maybe subconsciously you're aware.
So milling the hell out of the heads is ok as long as it's within spec but removing .002" from a block of material that's solid and 1.5" thick (a main cap) is too much? Get out of here. Again, you play it safe because your experience comes from google. Replacing the whole block is definitely in the best interest of the customer so I have no problem with that. What other limits to you adhere to during your building process?


I can admit I don't know the specifics of the changes over the years of the J series. I was not aware of any of the stuff you just said. Why can't you admit you have a lot to learn on engine building?
Wait, why would you mention cam timing and ignition timing in the same sentence? Do you realize ignition timing and cam timing are two totally different things and cam timing cannot be altered electronically and ignition timing is not altered by milling heads or decking the block? A FlashPro has no effect on cam timing.

Why am I not surprised at all. Maybe, just maybe an engine builder would be the best source. Next would be a book. "Conducting research" is not reading someone else's opinions on the internet. What kind of research have you yourself done in real life on one of your engines?

You know, it pisses me off that you can't just have a discussion. I started by trying to help out a little and all I get is a defensive arrogant ass in return. I told you I wasn't trying to piss you off or offend or step on any toes. As with many people that don't know what they're talking about you have to make it personal and take it off topic. Hopefully this helps any potential future customers to make the right decision. I wish Paul was still on here, he was an actual engine builder that knew his shit. Me and him disagreed in a respectful manner on turbos vs superchargers but we could have intelligent conversations. I felt bad for him because just like myself he went against guys with his experience and the google educated people attacked him. Even over at bitog when he mentioned oil pressure was uncomfortably low on even a stock engine at hot idle with a 20wt he got roasted by the know it alls. If you won't listen to me, maybe you should hit Paul up for some tips which will likely save you some grief, money, and court time later on.

Once again you fail to mention what you set the thrust clearance at on the seized up crank. Why is that? Do you not set the thrust clearance?

What still stands out to me is you don't care why the mains shifted. Don't you have any desire to learn engine building on a higher level? Don't you think it would help you to make better decisions if you knew WHY things did what they did? Instead you have this attitude that you know everything you need to know and nothing else is important and I can tell you that's not the case. You condemned line boring citing it would change main bearing clearance when in fact you can use it to tighten or loosen clearances. Yes, you can make the hole smaller if you want. Some people will never look past their own nose.

So come up with some off topic BS or just ignore this altogether but it doesn't change the fact that you screwed up

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

I guess every forum has its person that plays the 'know-it-all' role. Nothing wrong with it unless that person refuses to be corrected when wrong.

Praise be to the "ignore" feature.

You hit the nail on the head. The j35a8/j32a3 crank sensor mounts on the j35z3 oil pump with no issues and will accept the necessary components that allow it to function properly such as the trigger/timing belt pulley, harmonic balancer, etc. Also, yes, the internal crank trigger wheel is also left in place as it will not give any ill effects to the engine. In fact, I see it as 'room for expansion' by allowing the user to update to a higher resolution, increased timing accuracy, j35z3 ECM and if Hondata ever decides to introduce a tuning solution....well, you get my point. Of course the oil pan must be swapped as there will be a hole where the crank sensor is supposed to mount. Other than that, the only other difference I can really see (other than compression ratio) would be that the j35z3 has a revised coolant flow route that's made possible by both a plastic insert near the entry point near the water pump as well as a special head gasket that essentially blocks off flow nearly all the way around with one opening on the opposite side of where the plastic insert sits thereby forcing the coolant to flow through the cylinders before the heads and exiting the block. This permits more effective cooling of the engine by forcing the coolant through a 'two stage' routing rather than cooling both 'stages' at once leaving hot spots in certain areas where flow was not as great. Obviously aiding in cooling efficiency, this added capacity makes the engine more stable under heavy loads and even high performance builds producing greater levels of power. It's the hot spots in or near certain cylinders that can contribute to knock as well as unequal power balance between cylinders by allowing the heat to manipulate the required air/fuel density of the hotter cylinder(s).

And as I mentioned previously, the j35a8 and j35z3 are practically the same engines in regards to strength and production of power....again, aside from the lower compression. I'm solely basing this off of comparing parts between the two engines such as pistons, rods, crank, etc. They are very similar in size, shape, density, design, everything. Though this is not an accurate way to judge an engines capabilities, I've reached my conclusion based off of something Acura said when they first released the j35z3. It was said that the j35z3 has many improved features over the engine it "replaced" which was the "Acura TL Type S 3.5".

Here's a picture that I took of the other j35z3 I'm building of which has the j35a8 crankshaft sensor installed. No problems here as you can plainly see:


And another pic of Jesse's ceramic coated chambers before polishing them to aid in reflectivity and also improving its resistance in being knocked off my the combustion process shock waves. Again, all coatings are done in house and are pretty damn durable after applied:

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

Do you use techline coatings? I've heard good things about them, but I also recently saw that VHT Flameproof is listed for applications of piston tops and combustion chambers (rattle can for real!). I'm tempted to try it to see if that stuff even stays on after a few miles just for fun.

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Yep, Techline was the only product I could get to pass the 'scratch test' after curing and was also the only one to still be present after a 4500 mile boosted engine was torn back down to replace a burnt exhaust valve. I'm a hard person to convince when it comes to so called 'performance-in-a-can' products but I'll at least try them once if the concept sounds of reason. Because I'm a huge believer in heat management in forced induction builds such as adding proper/adequate shielding in the right areas to reduce heat soak and thereby lowering the chance of knock (that's just one example), I was well aware of the advantage of retaining the combustion heat in the chamber where it belongs rather than it being absorbed by the parent material (aluminum head). This not only mildly improves power output but also as I mentioned reduces the engines chance of detonating under load. Because the j-series is a high compression engine to begin with, the engines chance of knocking is still present in a naturally aspirated build too when heat soak and/or low quality fuel gets factored into the equation.

The key is obviously prepping the surface for adhesion as well as eliminating stress points in the coat such as bubbles, high edges, uneven area, etc. Though Techline says one coat is good and anything beyond this is wasting the product, I still do 2-3 coats but not for purpose of stacking them. After the first coat is applied, I'll sand it back down till a see an even coat which is basically removing the entire first coat...or more specifically leaving a very thin coat afterwards. This process is repeated two more times and is done so that all three thin coats that were applied lightly and evenly now equal a single coats thickness....just without the flaws that reduce its lifespan and not to mention its effectiveness. The last step is polishing the coat to eliminate even more stress risers (sort of like when one polishes connecting rod after shot peening to increase fracture resistance) and give it an almost lustrous appearance.

I've recorded temp differences of close to 140 degrees between a coated and non-coated piston. That was all the proof I needed to see that the product works.