orca11

I'm seeing some sites about Hydrogen (HHO) injection into the vacuum line to improve gas mileage and performance. Now I'm not buying that it'll double my mileage, but even 10 percent can add up quickly as much as I drive.

I keep the car maintained and the tires properly inflated, so I'm looking for something beyond that. I currently get about 22 mpg overall.

From what I can gather, the idea is that the HHO enables more of the fuel vapor to burn, extracting more power. I've also seen that in order to keep the computer from sensing more oxygen and upping the fuel flow (killing any mileage benefit), I need to install an O2 enhancer to trick it into leaning the mixture.

Has anyone done this or does anyone have any information on expensive risks I may be taking (I saw another thread here about damaging cats with methane injection). I'd really rather not get a couple grand repair bill if there are known problems.

Thanks

01tl4tl

get better and well tested results by seafoam treatment (or wynns or bg44) to the fuel tank and induction system, put some fresh NGK spark plugs in if over 50k miles, clean the engine oil system and replace oil with fully synthetic- set tires a few psi higher than door sticker 36 front 32 rear is good start,
remove un-needed items from car and trunk to reduce weight, shed 10 pounds yourself,

All of this is easy DIY and fairly cheap- proven not to harm the engine in any way and does improve economy
Give thoses things a try before going crazy

crzygosu87

iTrader: (4)

and remember to keep your air filter clean as well

Bearcat94

HHO is an internet myth.

You Have:

Hydrogen = H

Oxygen = O (Normally found "free" as O2

Water = H20

Hydrogen Ion = H+

Hydroxide Ion = OH-

And that is pretty much it. There is no "HHO" ion/molecule, whatever .... well, except for water of course.

orca11

Thanks for the feedback.

The "internet myth" comment is the kind of soul-crushing but directly relevant response I was looking for (and fearing). I'm sure that will save me some money.

... and thanks to the other posters as well... it has been a while since I cleaned the air filter, I've never even heard of Sea Foam before, and I could probably afford to loose 20 pounds rather than 10 (but I don't carry extra junk in the car except for an emergency roadside kit and a first aid kit ).

Crysophylos

I remember reading somewhere that WWII fighter planes used water injection for added power. I can't remember the specifics, but I believe it was something to the effect of cooling the A/F mixture and making it more dense. Naturally we're talking about a fine mist of water so as to avoid hydrolock.

However, I never head of using pure hydrogen. Sounds a bit dangerous.

stillhere153

iTrader: (1)

MalG

It's not a HHO molecule, genius. It's HHO gas. Two parts Hydrogen, one part Oxygen. Ever seen the old footage of the Hindenberg lighting up? Hydrogen gas is flammable, and can definately improve gasoline combustion efficiency.

In fact, there are some conversions that will allow a vehicle to run on HHO only.

Not a myth, and definately worth a try. You just have to tweak your fuel injection system not to inject more gas when the sensors detect less oxygen.

I'm thinking of moving the battery to the trunk and installing a couple of cells under the hood myself. We've done it on an older Mercedes and it definately works.

Of course, the other recommended optimizations should probably be performed as well. Every little bit helps.

MalG

Found this for ya.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAVbHZkWtNo

lembowski

iTrader: (1)

My question is why doesn't Sandiegodrive ever get in these discussions? He not only has the Hydrogen thing......he has a 6 foot sticker saying he has this thing. He seemed pretty convinced that it was working for him.

SRT-11

someone get his @$$ in here now!

sandiegodrive

Ok I'm at work, but I'll make this quick.

Another owner who has the same car as mine w/ CAI drove my car (2007 TL Type-S) because he didn't believe and lets just say...HE NOW WANTS IT!

He said it felt as if my car was supercharged!

We're making the units bigger and safer. They're highly explosive.

MPG gains have been minimal though, 4 or 5 MPG on AVG.

More testing will be done soon. To give accurate #s

kjelly

Where are you getting the Hydrogen?

TzarChasm

Wait a minute, are you talking about having something like a bottle of this gas that you then use to inject the gas into the engine along with the fuel, kind of like NOS? If so, wouldnt just using pure hydrogen work better?

If you are talking about creating the gas yourself from water, using the cars engine for power, how do you get around the second law of thermodynamics?

lembowski

iTrader: (1)

Second law of thermodynamics, about entropy
The total entropy of any isolated thermodynamic system tends to increase over time, approaching a maximum value.

TzarChasm

It means ya dont get somethin for nuthin.

sandiegodrive

I don't know crap about thermodynamics, but I do know explosive power.

All I know I put in water and explosive crap comes out.

If you run a tube from the HHO device into a cup of soap, take a lighter to the forming soap bubbles and get ready for a quick, loud explosion.

That gas that comes out of the water from running the negative and positive current is extremely explosive.

EDIT: Besides the added HP is just how freakn' fast the transmission shifts now!

Why would the tranny shift so much faster now? (I don't actually know why this is)

TzarChasm

So you don't know crap about thermodynamics but you know enough about engines to be able to do a better job than all the major manufacturers.

Let me give you a quick explanation on the laws of physics and energy: it is impossible to create energy without putting energy into the conversion. The second law states that energy is ALWAYS lost in the process. Therefore, either you have rewritten the laws of physics with your device, or you are full of shit. I'm betting its the latter.

I have no doubt you FEEL like your car is faster, its called the placebo effect. Its the same thing that makes little kids feel like they are running faster if they get new shoes. The reality is you are losing either power or gas milage, probably both. There is no magic here, its simple physics.



Perpetual motion, confusing stupid people for several hundred years and still going strong.

MalG

The cost is from the water being lost due to the reaction, and a more efficient use of the fossil fuel. There's a reason this results in "cleaner" emissions. Nobody has said it's free.

TzarChasm

Water is not energy don't they teach anything in schools nowadays? You have to use energy to extract the energy from the water. By the laws of physics there is NO WAY you can put in a certain amount of energy and get out a larger amount of energy, or even the same amount of energy for that matter. Thats what these HHO devices claim to do, and it's just not possible.

SporkLover

Look up Meth injection.... same thing. Those WWII fighter planes you are talking about were either turbo charged or super charged. Up in the sky the air is already pretty cool... where you got your gains was cooling the combustion chamber.

SporkLover

I had this same discussion with a co-worker..... along the same lines.

Bearcat94

It's called Electrolysis, "genius".

And you don't get "Two parts Hydrogen, one part Oxygen", you get 1 Part H2 and one Part O2. H2 and 02 btw are *normally* gases.

As in: 2H2O(l) → 2H2(g) + O2(g)

I don't have the inclination to look up the energy requirements, but industrial efficiency of the electrolysis of water is ~35%.


H2 burns. Duh. Thanks.

Assuming enough (any?) H2 is generated to matter, how do you:

- Control he place the H2 ignites?
- Control the moment the H2 combusts?
- i.e. How do you control "pre-detonation"?
- Control the amount of H2 generated, especially in relation to the amount of "extra" Oxygen available for combustion at that moment, in that cylinder?
- Control the insertion of "extra" Oxygen to combust BOTH the gasoline and the H2?
- Alter the F/A maps so that timing and/or gasoline injection is not altered upon the introduction of the "extra" 02 needed to combust the H2? Or do you *assume* that the H2 combusts preferentially and raw gasoline is spilled into the exhaust.
- Control the tendency of H2 to bond to O to (re)form H20 prior to combustion?


Is there any documented, peer reviewed scientific literature that H2 injection improves mileage WITHOUT having to alter the Fuel/Air Maps and/or timing of "stock" passenger cars AND without doing any damage to the car or the environment (i.e. dumping unburned gasoline)?

TzarChasm

It just freaking kills me to hear people talk about this stuff. If you have a basic understanding of science, you'll understand why it dosn't work. Cold fusion is the closest we have come to a scientifically viable way of producing clean energy and governments and scholastic institutions have been trying like hell to do it for years. Little do they know that some jackass kid already has something better hooked up to his TL.

ggesq

iTrader: (1)

TZAR- try and separate yourself from Ramblings when you post in 3G. You can effectively make your point without calling other people names. We are a little more civilized in 3G.

SRT-11

yeah seconded. also i don't know why it's not rediculous that you could get better MPG and more HP from colder, denser air in the intake, but it is rediculous that when enriching the intake air with small amounts of hydrogen gas you can't do something similar.

Cold Fusion? Seriously? Apples and Orangutans man...

screaminz28

iTrader: (1)

Lol, I hear ya! I bet everyone with an HHO device also believes in their ouija board, magnet therapy, and dowsing rods. Maybe they could use the ouija board to tell them when to use the dowsing rod to find the water for the HHO while sitting in their chair with magnets all over it!

TzarChasm

Think for one second.... why do you think I asked where the Hydrogen came from?

Because adding hydrogen from an outside source may in fact work....however it takes massive amounts of energy to create a useable amount of hydrogen. Now stay with me a second, do you really think that your engine can do that for free? If so, why bother with power plants? Drive on up to NYC and just tell them to plug your car in for all the free electricity they need.

I'm sorry I called the kid a jackass, sometimes I forget about 3G rules, since I stay out of here when possible. But when I see a snake oil salesman out to screw people, even if they don't know they are a snake oil salesman, I still find myself getting aggrivated at the foolishness of it all.

It's all really basic chemistry and physics, if you really believe that someone has rewitten the rules of science in their basement, then by all means, do what makes you feel good. I'm going to stick with science, its worked for the last 6trillion years or so just fine.

SporkLover

SRT-11.... one thing to think about. Many manufacturers would submit to the general consumer population that Hydrogen can be a viable alternative to petrol fuels... however the technology and infrastructure is not in place to make it economically viable. Just as the Tzar said it takes considerable amounts of power to create free standing hydrogen gas. If it was just as easy as running an electrolysis kit that can fit in the engine bay of your car.... why aren't all cars running off of Hydrogen? If it was really that easy we would have had Hydrogen cars on the road a long time ago. Right now they are pet projects in R&D departments of Manufacturers and Universities.

I don't think the Tzar is trying to be a naysayer..... I bet if HHO was a reality he would be one of the first to jump on the bandwagon...... however as this is a discussion forum and the OP was asking if it was real or not, he wanted to inject the scientific side of the discussion.

I think you should get started on your own search to make up your own mind. Start with looking at Electrolysis and Conservation of Energy.... wikipedia has good articles. Those should give you a good a grounding for understanding why HHO as described cannot work.

Just a interesting Tidbit of info....... a quick browse of the interwebs show that HHO kits start at $50 ...... if these things are such miracles... why don't we all have them? I believe these belong on the shelf with the Tornado intakes and electric superchargers.

ndabunka

I think you guys (who are giving the OP crap) are missing the point. The electrolysis is being done by the BATTERY rather than the petrol engine. As ANYONE who has done the basic 7th grade experiment can tell you, you CAN and DO create "regular" hydrogen in the process. This HHO design attempts to accelerate the process by adding "a magic powder" (Baking soda) to the water to enhance the process.

There are a number of problems with the methods presented on the internet but I believe that the primary problem would be the delivery of a consistent volume of this gas into the air-intake system of ANY car. As you go faster, you would need some type of adjustable regulator that would allow more of the HHO gas to move into the system. I am pretty certain that NONE of the systems out there address this. Rather, they simply say that "hooking this into the line is sufficient" with no real proof of efficacy. Understanding this obviously leads to the next issue...generating more gas as required by the design. Unfortunately, there is no method of control on the gas generation side of the design.

It turely is "unfortunate" that people like SANDIEGODRIVE who really have no idea if this kind of thing works or not (much less understands ANYTHING about the BASIC principles) go around promoting such a weak premise/design. But you do see this happen EVERY time fuel prices increase. There is ALWAYS someone trying to make a dollar or two off of false promises. If SANDIEGODRIVE wants to promote that concept, he/she AT LEAST needs to become educated enough to do so.

TzarChasm

So..You replace the battery every 200 miles? So that you can save 4 gallons of gas per fill up? Cause to produce a noticable amount of hydrogen, you are going to need a LOT of electricity. No car battery is going to withstand a constant drain like that. And don't even begin to say that it is recharged by the engine because then you are once again using the engine to create the electricity which you use to put into the water, therefore it is the same problem: thermodynamics, laws one and two.

Thermodynamics, it's not just some word, it's the law.

NedShneebly

why not just have SANDIEGODRIVE post a dyno or time slip from a track? That would save some of us History/Business majors from reading "thermodynamics for dummies".

ndabunka

Hey dude, it's just a BATTERY. They are DESIGNED to be dis-charged and re-charged. They are not "disposable battery's like you would buy for a camera. Car Battery's have been DESIGNED to take a charge (from an alternator) from the engine. This is no different. the ICE engines make WAY more power than they can effectively use. Some of that does go to recharge your battery (even if YOU don't know it).

I will agree that they weren't designed to run electrolosis systems but that function may be well within their operational limits. Then again, maybe a new battery design would be needed in order to support this direction.

PS - You DID catch on that I don't support HHO, right?

ndabunka

TANGENT ALERT, TANGENT ALERT...
The POINT of the thread is NOT about power, it's about saving fuel. Who CARES what the Dyno tells us? The removal of the O2 sensor is not practical on these cars nor is the ECU easily re-programmed to account for changes in O2 readings.... Shesh!

TzarChasm

Wrong. Your battery has NOT been designed to be constantly drained. The alternator is DESIGNED to run the electronics when the car is in use, not the battery. The alternator is DESIGNED to put a specific amount into the battery, to keep it charged, not to adjust that amount with your speed or other usage. If all of the alternators excess energy went into the battery, it would explode.

Not that it matters where HHO is concerned because just the battery alone could never produce enough power to create a significant amount of hydrogen.

I do get that you don't support HHO, but before someone picked out your post as an example of why HHO does work, ("see it uses the battery not the engine") I thought I would shut it down.

Bearcat94

Does that come in a t-shirt and/or bumper sticker?

davidrogers

Tzar... seems like you know what you are talking about... can you watch and explain this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIXjODu7DIA


By the way the oil companies try to offer him a billion dollars to by his invention. I don't think they would offer 1 billion for something that doesn't work. And for some odd reason he died when he was in his 50s.

davidrogers

P.S. And you don't need to be a scientist to come up with an invention... Stan Meyer didn't even graduate from college.

If you guys google Stan Meyer.. there are a few youtube clips were he explains how it works. And if you google ZeroFossilFuel.. he has a lot of good tutorials as he the research/dev.

ndabunka

Anyone can generate burnable hydrogen form water (that the gas that burns when you light it in science experiment that we all did when we were each in 7th grade, right?). The problem is generating ENOUGH of in a short enough time to be viable in this type of an application.

sr1sws

I suspect the ultimate result comes from combining HHO or HOH "injection" with the addition of acetone to the gas in the fuel tank.