Group Buy for JnR ECU - Dyno's/Gains (12/23); Prices Posted (1/7)
02-04-2012, 12:01 PM
#1001
N0w $hiftinG N/A
02-04-2012, 12:12 PM
#1002
Yes the spike we do take into consideration ,as it not with the car or ecu or dyno but ill post a few videos in car on the dyno when these auto gets to 6400 rpm the tranny does a wierd glitch whivh picks up on the dyno runs it is normal as spade car does same,boston and all typeS auto weve done ,but the TypeS did suprise us with gains
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BostonSilverTypeS (02-04-2012)
02-04-2012, 10:40 PM
#1003
Cruisin'
The numbers don't lie but gains are most impressive on my butt dyno. Before the tune I had issues getting a good start off the line and now the car takes off great and seems to shift more easily. The gains are most noticeable in high end and 3rd gear is most impressive 
.
02-04-2012, 10:52 PM
#1004
Cruisin'
bro that is some good asss gains man as I plan to purchase this ECU setup after following this thread since it first started. We have to meet up in time since im here in FL as well. Jus waiting until tax refund to pay rodney a visit even tho i missed the group buy oh well
. But its a must have for spring I would deff like to hear or feel the difference tho and ill let u know when I take the trip to rodney since ill be expecting some nice gains since im 6MT.
. But its a must have for spring I would deff like to hear or feel the difference tho and ill let u know when I take the trip to rodney since ill be expecting some nice gains since im 6MT. The gains are impressive enough that the price is justified groupbuy or not. Definitely take advantage of being close to Rodney he knows his sheit and provides great service. Let me know when you have a chance to meet up. I'm in South Florida and always looking for sick TLs.
02-04-2012, 10:55 PM
#1005
Safety Car
Now that we can see what the J engine in our car's can do with a proper tune, let's discuss where this power is coming from.
To me, the JnR is changing two things, the AFR and the ignition timing. I am thinking that the timing is the biggest player here.
For people that have read my dogma for the past few years, they know that I have been preaching the benefits of keeping the underhood temps as low as possible, insulating the CAI, running a thermal barrier under the intake manifold, etc. For years, I have noticed the improvements in power (at all rpms and all throttle positions) from keeping things cool under the hood. Also tied to this is the lack of power loss from heat shocking. For the past few years, it was my working theory that keeping the various sensors (IAT and ATF temp) cool as possible was the reason for the power increase.
However, only in the past year or two had I realized that the true reason for the power gains were from improved timing. After I had relocated my IAT to the front air dam, I had realized that all of my cooling mods were increasing power mainly by tricking the oem ecu into running more timing.
This was further confirmed when I was experimenting with moving my knock sensor to various locations and causing my engine to have different timing. I learned just how quickly our engine gets lazy with the slightest drop in timing. On the other hand, I also learned how our engine LOVES maximum timing and how the engine would run like a raped ape when fed a diet of maximum timing (on the verge of knocking).
Regarding the AFR, I have not ever played with various AFR in our engine. So, I am unable to comment on this aspect. I can only borrow from my experiences in tuning small block chevy motors with Holley carbs, Provided that the AFR was "in the ball park", changing the AFR yielded less noticeable power changes than moving the ignition timing around. That is, timing had a bigger impact than the AFR when moving both around close to optimal points.
Please share your thoughts. Where is the power coming from with the JnR ecu? And your answer can not be "the power fairy".
To me, the JnR is changing two things, the AFR and the ignition timing. I am thinking that the timing is the biggest player here.
For people that have read my dogma for the past few years, they know that I have been preaching the benefits of keeping the underhood temps as low as possible, insulating the CAI, running a thermal barrier under the intake manifold, etc. For years, I have noticed the improvements in power (at all rpms and all throttle positions) from keeping things cool under the hood. Also tied to this is the lack of power loss from heat shocking. For the past few years, it was my working theory that keeping the various sensors (IAT and ATF temp) cool as possible was the reason for the power increase.
However, only in the past year or two had I realized that the true reason for the power gains were from improved timing. After I had relocated my IAT to the front air dam, I had realized that all of my cooling mods were increasing power mainly by tricking the oem ecu into running more timing.
This was further confirmed when I was experimenting with moving my knock sensor to various locations and causing my engine to have different timing. I learned just how quickly our engine gets lazy with the slightest drop in timing. On the other hand, I also learned how our engine LOVES maximum timing and how the engine would run like a raped ape when fed a diet of maximum timing (on the verge of knocking).
Regarding the AFR, I have not ever played with various AFR in our engine. So, I am unable to comment on this aspect. I can only borrow from my experiences in tuning small block chevy motors with Holley carbs, Provided that the AFR was "in the ball park", changing the AFR yielded less noticeable power changes than moving the ignition timing around. That is, timing had a bigger impact than the AFR when moving both around close to optimal points.
Please share your thoughts. Where is the power coming from with the JnR ecu? And your answer can not be "the power fairy".
02-04-2012, 11:32 PM
#1006
Three Wheelin'
iTrader: (3)
Now that we can see what the J engine in our car's can do with a proper tune, let's discuss where this power is coming from.
To me, the JnR is changing two things, the AFR and the ignition timing. I am thinking that the timing is the biggest player here.
For people that have read my dogma for the past few years, they know that I have been preaching the benefits of keeping the underhood temps as low as possible, insulating the CAI, running a thermal barrier under the intake manifold, etc. For years, I have noticed the improvements in power (at all rpms and all throttle positions) from keeping things cool under the hood. Also tied to this is the lack of power loss from heat shocking. For the past few years, it was my working theory that keeping the various sensors (IAT and ATF temp) cool as possible was the reason for the power increase.
However, only in the past year or two had I realized that the true reason for the power gains were from improved timing. After I had relocated my IAT to the front air dam, I had realized that all of my cooling mods were increasing power mainly by tricking the oem ecu into running more timing.
This was further confirmed when I was experimenting with moving my knock sensor to various locations and causing my engine to have different timing. I learned just how quickly our engine gets lazy with the slightest drop in timing. On the other hand, I also learned how our engine LOVES maximum timing and how the engine would run like a raped ape when fed a diet of maximum timing (on the verge of knocking).
Regarding the AFR, I have not ever played with various AFR in our engine. So, I am unable to comment on this aspect. I can only borrow from my experiences in tuning small block chevy motors with Holley carbs, Provided that the AFR was "in the ball park", changing the AFR yielded less noticeable power changes than moving the ignition timing around. That is, timing had a bigger impact than the AFR when moving both around close to optimal points.
Please share your thoughts. Where is the power coming from with the JnR ecu? And your answer can not be "the power fairy".
To me, the JnR is changing two things, the AFR and the ignition timing. I am thinking that the timing is the biggest player here.
For people that have read my dogma for the past few years, they know that I have been preaching the benefits of keeping the underhood temps as low as possible, insulating the CAI, running a thermal barrier under the intake manifold, etc. For years, I have noticed the improvements in power (at all rpms and all throttle positions) from keeping things cool under the hood. Also tied to this is the lack of power loss from heat shocking. For the past few years, it was my working theory that keeping the various sensors (IAT and ATF temp) cool as possible was the reason for the power increase.
However, only in the past year or two had I realized that the true reason for the power gains were from improved timing. After I had relocated my IAT to the front air dam, I had realized that all of my cooling mods were increasing power mainly by tricking the oem ecu into running more timing.
This was further confirmed when I was experimenting with moving my knock sensor to various locations and causing my engine to have different timing. I learned just how quickly our engine gets lazy with the slightest drop in timing. On the other hand, I also learned how our engine LOVES maximum timing and how the engine would run like a raped ape when fed a diet of maximum timing (on the verge of knocking).
Regarding the AFR, I have not ever played with various AFR in our engine. So, I am unable to comment on this aspect. I can only borrow from my experiences in tuning small block chevy motors with Holley carbs, Provided that the AFR was "in the ball park", changing the AFR yielded less noticeable power changes than moving the ignition timing around. That is, timing had a bigger impact than the AFR when moving both around close to optimal points.
Please share your thoughts. Where is the power coming from with the JnR ecu? And your answer can not be "the power fairy".
Yes, its timing as well optimizing fuel delivery to lean it out a little at WOT, and thats a basics of it. I street tuned my car from the ground up, making my own map and put down 281/246. Then I slapped on a cam and valvespring/retainer upgrades and made 40 additional horses/30 ft lbs on a modified street tune. Who knows what I could have done had it been dyno tuned...an additional 10? 15?
A standalone is a powerful product!
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02-05-2012, 11:57 AM
#1007
N0w $hiftinG N/A
Thanks GtMaxx The gains are impressive enough that the price is justified groupbuy or not. Definitely take advantage of being close to Rodney he knows his sheit and provides great service. Let me know when you have a chance to meet up. I'm in South Florida and always looking for sick TLs.
The gains are impressive enough that the price is justified groupbuy or not. Definitely take advantage of being close to Rodney he knows his sheit and provides great service. Let me know when you have a chance to meet up. I'm in South Florida and always looking for sick TLs.
02-05-2012, 09:47 PM
#1008
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Now that we can see what the J engine in our car's can do with a proper tune, let's discuss where this power is coming from.
To me, the JnR is changing two things, the AFR and the ignition timing. I am thinking that the timing is the biggest player here.
For people that have read my dogma for the past few years, they know that I have been preaching the benefits of keeping the underhood temps as low as possible, insulating the CAI, running a thermal barrier under the intake manifold, etc. For years, I have noticed the improvements in power (at all rpms and all throttle positions) from keeping things cool under the hood. Also tied to this is the lack of power loss from heat shocking. For the past few years, it was my working theory that keeping the various sensors (IAT and ATF temp) cool as possible was the reason for the power increase.
However, only in the past year or two had I realized that the true reason for the power gains were from improved timing. After I had relocated my IAT to the front air dam, I had realized that all of my cooling mods were increasing power mainly by tricking the oem ecu into running more timing.
This was further confirmed when I was experimenting with moving my knock sensor to various locations and causing my engine to have different timing. I learned just how quickly our engine gets lazy with the slightest drop in timing. On the other hand, I also learned how our engine LOVES maximum timing and how the engine would run like a raped ape when fed a diet of maximum timing (on the verge of knocking).
Regarding the AFR, I have not ever played with various AFR in our engine. So, I am unable to comment on this aspect. I can only borrow from my experiences in tuning small block chevy motors with Holley carbs, Provided that the AFR was "in the ball park", changing the AFR yielded less noticeable power changes than moving the ignition timing around. That is, timing had a bigger impact than the AFR when moving both around close to optimal points.
Please share your thoughts. Where is the power coming from with the JnR ecu? And your answer can not be "the power fairy".
To me, the JnR is changing two things, the AFR and the ignition timing. I am thinking that the timing is the biggest player here.
For people that have read my dogma for the past few years, they know that I have been preaching the benefits of keeping the underhood temps as low as possible, insulating the CAI, running a thermal barrier under the intake manifold, etc. For years, I have noticed the improvements in power (at all rpms and all throttle positions) from keeping things cool under the hood. Also tied to this is the lack of power loss from heat shocking. For the past few years, it was my working theory that keeping the various sensors (IAT and ATF temp) cool as possible was the reason for the power increase.
However, only in the past year or two had I realized that the true reason for the power gains were from improved timing. After I had relocated my IAT to the front air dam, I had realized that all of my cooling mods were increasing power mainly by tricking the oem ecu into running more timing.
This was further confirmed when I was experimenting with moving my knock sensor to various locations and causing my engine to have different timing. I learned just how quickly our engine gets lazy with the slightest drop in timing. On the other hand, I also learned how our engine LOVES maximum timing and how the engine would run like a raped ape when fed a diet of maximum timing (on the verge of knocking).
Regarding the AFR, I have not ever played with various AFR in our engine. So, I am unable to comment on this aspect. I can only borrow from my experiences in tuning small block chevy motors with Holley carbs, Provided that the AFR was "in the ball park", changing the AFR yielded less noticeable power changes than moving the ignition timing around. That is, timing had a bigger impact than the AFR when moving both around close to optimal points.
Please share your thoughts. Where is the power coming from with the JnR ecu? And your answer can not be "the power fairy".
inaccurate do you have logs of timing from oem ecu if so please post them up ..
02-06-2012, 09:23 AM
#1009
All motor
Yes, its timing as well optimizing fuel delivery to lean it out a little at WOT, and thats a basics of it. I street tuned my car from the ground up, making my own map and put down 281/246. Then I slapped on a cam and valvespring/retainer upgrades and made 40 additional horses/30 ft lbs on a modified street tune. Who knows what I could have done had it been dyno tuned...an additional 10? 15?
A standalone is a powerful product!
A standalone is a powerful product!
Lol. 
I would have to agree and say that timing is definitely the key factor. While the gains can also be attributed to the changes in AFR, I think the majority (60/40) comes from advanced timing.
I do have to ask this question though...being that there are "canned" tunes that come with the ECU, are there any risks regarding the advanced timing? Meaning could the timing increase of one car be too much for another car using the same tune?
02-06-2012, 10:30 AM
#1010
the one thing though I have a question on for camshaft work and valve spring is the HOP/Vibrations
everything I read it increases both.. into the muscle car realm.. I have been thinking of this because of the gains.. but I like driving my car everywhere.. with people in it .. I don’t need the wife and passengers complaining.. nor do I want to take the MDX if we go anywhere.. want a drivable car but with those two mods would you really get one?
What would be enough grinding on the camshaft to give more HP but not enough to make it into a vibration machine?
everything I read it increases both.. into the muscle car realm.. I have been thinking of this because of the gains.. but I like driving my car everywhere.. with people in it .. I don’t need the wife and passengers complaining.. nor do I want to take the MDX if we go anywhere.. want a drivable car but with those two mods would you really get one?
What would be enough grinding on the camshaft to give more HP but not enough to make it into a vibration machine?
02-06-2012, 10:59 AM
#1011
All motor
I've never heard of cams/valvetrain increasing vibrations?
02-06-2012, 11:27 AM
#1012
Burning Brakes
yeah me either unless you have a shitty tune after camming or have a really aggresive cam that is not per say very street friendly...!!
I would say there could be, but one factor that I do know that might be a small issue but very fixable is for example if someone tunes their car running 93octane and then others who live in states that only carry 91octane as their premium, they might have some serious knocking with the tune so without a way to monitor knocking or logging they would be doing damage to motor running 91 with a 93 tune!! so I guess thats something to take into consideration!!
Oh sh1t the cats outta the bag!!! Lol.
I would have to agree and say that timing is definitely the key factor. While the gains can also be attributed to the changes in AFR, I think the majority (60/40) comes from advanced timing.
I do have to ask this question though...being that there are "canned" tunes that come with the ECU, are there any risks regarding the advanced timing? Meaning could the timing increase of one car be too much for another car using the same tune?
Lol. I would have to agree and say that timing is definitely the key factor. While the gains can also be attributed to the changes in AFR, I think the majority (60/40) comes from advanced timing.
I do have to ask this question though...being that there are "canned" tunes that come with the ECU, are there any risks regarding the advanced timing? Meaning could the timing increase of one car be too much for another car using the same tune?
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Sonnick (02-06-2012)
02-06-2012, 11:42 AM
#1013
All motor
Good call man! The possibility of different fueling in different states didn't even cross my mind, but it is a very valid point I use 93 in the summer and 87 in the winter. I could always just unplug the ECU in the winter, but what fun is that?
I use 93 in the summer and 87 in the winter. I could always just unplug the ECU in the winter, but what fun is that?
02-06-2012, 11:46 AM
#1015
BANNED
iTrader: (33)
02-06-2012, 11:51 AM
#1016
All motor
I'm pretty sure all the ECUs were already tuned on 93 gas. Obviously Rodney will have a better answer.
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02-06-2012, 12:07 PM
#1017
[quote=BostonSilverTypeS;13534024]yeah me either unless you have a shitty tune after camming or have a really aggresive cam that is not per say very street friendly...!!
[quote]
I think what I read about was agressive grinding of cams... for those who have done this did you go aggressive or just had it partially grinded? I know the TYPE-S cams is slighting smaller than base.. but how much more would you have to grind to get 30 to 40 hp?
hmmm off/on topic again?
[quote]
I think what I read about was agressive grinding of cams... for those who have done this did you go aggressive or just had it partially grinded? I know the TYPE-S cams is slighting smaller than base.. but how much more would you have to grind to get 30 to 40 hp?
hmmm off/on topic again?
02-06-2012, 12:33 PM
#1018
Burning Brakes
93 octane with the occasional octane boosters in there!
02-06-2012, 12:40 PM
#1019
the one thing though I have a question on for camshaft work and valve spring is the HOP/Vibrations
everything I read it increases both.. into the muscle car realm.. I have been thinking of this because of the gains.. but I like driving my car everywhere.. with people in it .. I don’t need the wife and passengers complaining.. nor do I want to take the MDX if we go anywhere.. want a drivable car but with those two mods would you really get one?
What would be enough grinding on the camshaft to give more HP but not enough to make it into a vibration machine?
everything I read it increases both.. into the muscle car realm.. I have been thinking of this because of the gains.. but I like driving my car everywhere.. with people in it .. I don’t need the wife and passengers complaining.. nor do I want to take the MDX if we go anywhere.. want a drivable car but with those two mods would you really get one?
What would be enough grinding on the camshaft to give more HP but not enough to make it into a vibration machine?
02-06-2012, 01:20 PM
#1020
takin care of Business in
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I think what I read about was agressive grinding of cams... for those who have done this did you go aggressive or just had it partially grinded? I know the TYPE-S cams is slighting smaller than base.. but how much more would you have to grind to get 30 to 40 hp?
hmmm off/on topic again?
hmmm off/on topic again?
a cheaper option would be, get the bisi stage 2, use the specs to regrind your cam to those limits and sell the bisi on BM....this way you will be able to get max gains keeping the OEM cam....
or get a type S cam and call it a day
THIS !!! I was thinking of cheap-ing out on the springs/retainers but dont like kicking myself in the head....
02-06-2012, 02:20 PM
#1021
Safety Car
How does a racing cam make power?
It does *not* make power by getting more A/F into the chamber. The engine is NA. Only FI can cram more A/F into the chamber.
If the valve of a NA engine is held open longer (long duration camshaft), no additional A/F will be cram into the chamber. It is NA, not FI.
The way a racing cam works is by making the engine move the peak torque higher into the rpm range.
HP = (TQ x RPM) / 5252
A F/I engine makes more power by increasing the TQ value of the math formula.
A NA engine makes more power by increasing the RPM value of the math formula. The TQ value remains the same.
FOR EXAMPLE
F/I ENGINE
HP = (TQ x RPM) / 5252
HP = (600 Tq x 4000 RPM) / 5252
HP = 457
NA ENGINE
HP = (TQ x RPM) / 5252
HP = (300 Tq x 8000 RPM) / 5252
HP = 457
In the example above, the FI engine has double the torque of the NA engine. But, the NA engine is able to make the same amount of power even though the NA engine is making just half of the torque. How? The NA engine is spinning at double the RPM.
This is how a racing cam makes power.
FI makes power by burning a larger volume of A/F per stroke. But the NA engine makes more power by having more strokes in a given period of time (higher rpm).
Last edited by Inaccurate; 02-06-2012 at 02:26 PM.
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02-06-2012, 02:36 PM
#1022
All motor
^^ Great synopsis, Tim. In my experience, a larger quantity of strokes (to a point) usually works out better 
02-06-2012, 03:03 PM
#1024
Burning Brakes
I'm going past stock Redline but not much just to about 7100rpm as it still made power!! ...
...
02-06-2012, 03:08 PM
#1025
takin care of Business in
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Provided that I paraphrased the quote above correctly, then.....
How does a racing cam make power?
It does *not* make power by getting more A/F into the chamber. The engine is NA. Only FI can cram more A/F into the chamber.
If the valve of a NA engine is held open longer (long duration camshaft), no additional A/F will be cram into the chamber. It is NA, not FI.
The way a racing cam works is by making the engine move the peak torque higher into the rpm range.
HP = (TQ x RPM) / 5252
A F/I engine makes more power by increasing the TQ value of the math formula.
A NA engine makes more power by increasing the RPM value of the math formula. The TQ value remains the same.
FOR EXAMPLE
F/I ENGINE
HP = (TQ x RPM) / 5252
HP = (600 Tq x 4000 RPM) / 5252
HP = 457
NA ENGINE
HP = (TQ x RPM) / 5252
HP = (300 Tq x 8000 RPM) / 5252
HP = 457
In the example above, the FI engine has double the torque of the NA engine. But, the NA engine is able to make the same amount of power even though the NA engine is making just half of the torque. How? The NA engine is spinning at double the RPM.
This is how a racing cam makes power.
FI makes power by burning a larger volume of A/F per stroke. But the NA engine makes more power by having more strokes in a given period of time (higher rpm).
How does a racing cam make power?
It does *not* make power by getting more A/F into the chamber. The engine is NA. Only FI can cram more A/F into the chamber.
If the valve of a NA engine is held open longer (long duration camshaft), no additional A/F will be cram into the chamber. It is NA, not FI.
The way a racing cam works is by making the engine move the peak torque higher into the rpm range.
HP = (TQ x RPM) / 5252
A F/I engine makes more power by increasing the TQ value of the math formula.
A NA engine makes more power by increasing the RPM value of the math formula. The TQ value remains the same.
FOR EXAMPLE
F/I ENGINE
HP = (TQ x RPM) / 5252
HP = (600 Tq x 4000 RPM) / 5252
HP = 457
NA ENGINE
HP = (TQ x RPM) / 5252
HP = (300 Tq x 8000 RPM) / 5252
HP = 457
In the example above, the FI engine has double the torque of the NA engine. But, the NA engine is able to make the same amount of power even though the NA engine is making just half of the torque. How? The NA engine is spinning at double the RPM.
This is how a racing cam makes power.
FI makes power by burning a larger volume of A/F per stroke. But the NA engine makes more power by having more strokes in a given period of time (higher rpm).
When the intake valve opens and the piston starts its intake stroke, the air/fuel mixture in the intake runner starts to accelerate into the cylinder. By the time the piston reaches the bottom of its intake stroke, the air/fuel is moving at a pretty high speed. If we were to slam the intake valve shut, all of that air/fuel would come to a stop and not enter the cylinder. By leaving the intake valve open a little longer, the momentum of the fast-moving air/fuel continues to force air/fuel into the cylinder as the piston starts its compression stroke. So the faster the engine goes, the faster the air/fuel moves, and the longer we want the intake valve to stay open. We also want the valve to open wider at higher speeds -- this parameter, called valve lift, is governed by the cam lobe profile.
For instance, imagine I replace my base cams with Type S cams (no other work done), I will still gain some torque as the Type S cams are a little more aggressive....it does not mean I will have to spin at a higher rpm to get more gains....
picked up from here:
http://www.howstuffworks.com/camshaft.htm
do see the first page and the little animation they have....explains the point am trying to get to...but my mechanical jargon also slam dunks me
Last edited by swoosh; 02-06-2012 at 03:10 PM.
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gerzand (02-06-2012)
02-06-2012, 03:41 PM
#1026
All motor
^^ If I'm not mistaken, Tim is saying exactly that; leaving the valves open longer can and will lead to more power being that (more often than not), you will spin to a higher RPM in order for the cams to work at full efficiency. In your previous explanation though, you said that "hence more air getting in." I think Tim took that as saying "cramming air in," which is what forced induction does, which is not what I think you meant.
You can still make more power with a cam regrind given the same RPM (as far as I know), but obviously some potential will be lost.
You can still make more power with a cam regrind given the same RPM (as far as I know), but obviously some potential will be lost.
02-06-2012, 03:43 PM
#1027
Safety Car
@ swoosh
Yes, a high duration cam does hold the valve open longer. But, the goal is not to allow more A/F into the cylinder. The goal is to make the engine to become efficient at much higher RPM levels. But the engine is not getting more A/F into the cylinder than atmospheric pressure (generally speaking without nit picking pressure waves).
Regarding the small increase in torque. Yes, this can and does happen. But the small increase in TQ is peanuts in the overall picture.
HP = (TQ x RPM) / 5252
HP = (TQ x RPM) / 5252
HP = (220 x 5000) / 5252
HP = 209
versus
HP = (TQ x RPM) / 5252
HP = (242 x 5000) / 5252
HP = 230
versus
HP = (TQ x RPM) / 5252
HP = (220 x 8000) / 5252
HP = 335
By peanuts, I mean that it is insignificant to the big picture.
For sake of discussion, lets say that the big cam increased TQ by 10%. With that 10% increase in TQ, the HP increased by 21 HP.
But the way the cam works is by making the engine spin much higher RPMs. And in the case of higher RPMs, the increase is 125 HP.
See what I mean. The 125 HP increase is where the meat is... not with the 21 HP.
Yes, a high duration cam does hold the valve open longer. But, the goal is not to allow more A/F into the cylinder. The goal is to make the engine to become efficient at much higher RPM levels. But the engine is not getting more A/F into the cylinder than atmospheric pressure (generally speaking without nit picking pressure waves).
Regarding the small increase in torque. Yes, this can and does happen. But the small increase in TQ is peanuts in the overall picture.
HP = (TQ x RPM) / 5252
HP = (TQ x RPM) / 5252
HP = (220 x 5000) / 5252
HP = 209
versus
HP = (TQ x RPM) / 5252
HP = (242 x 5000) / 5252
HP = 230
versus
HP = (TQ x RPM) / 5252
HP = (220 x 8000) / 5252
HP = 335
By peanuts, I mean that it is insignificant to the big picture.
For sake of discussion, lets say that the big cam increased TQ by 10%. With that 10% increase in TQ, the HP increased by 21 HP.
But the way the cam works is by making the engine spin much higher RPMs. And in the case of higher RPMs, the increase is 125 HP.
See what I mean. The 125 HP increase is where the meat is... not with the 21 HP.
02-06-2012, 04:13 PM
#1029
takin care of Business in
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Tim....quick post from my cell....
Makes a lot more sense now....I think I used the wrong words....
Makes a lot more sense now....I think I used the wrong words....
02-07-2012, 08:54 AM
#1030
Burning Brakes
Here's a tuning seminar I went to when I was building Honda/Acura engines from Doug from Hondata. Tuning from experiences and from Acura/Honda engines for over 10 years, timing is one step, but another important tuning process is AFR. Coming from many tuning background with DSMLink to Hondata to NISTune, I've learned that the goals of tuning should be easy starting, steady idling, and good drivability. Tuning for economy and emissions is POSSIBLE. Now, to people who wants to move the rev limitor up, I don't think it will be necessary. The stock cams on our cars will stop making power near redline, anymore will just flat out. While tuning various Honda/Acura motors, I've found that Datalogging can be used to adjust fuel to get proper Lambda values. When I tune A/F ratio, I usually keep a cold air intake as it provides an additional 0.3-0.7 psi more boost. Now I haven't gotten the JnR Ecu, but in the past, I've found out that some cars run very rich at high RPM, like the 06+ SI or the RSX-S. With the 04+ TL having about the same compression as the K20's, I feel as though Honda has done it the same. It has conservative ignition timing and tuned for low emiision at high mileage like Innaccurate had mentioned. Not sure on the sensitivity to knock sensor but I would believe that once it's tuned on a stock TL motor, you same the same or better emission and economy.
I'm sure people had street tuned their pride or work in the past and it's a great start to knowing your engine.
For All Motor tuning, know the cam advance, in general with high back pressure - you should retard the cam angles and raise the Vtec point, with the low bakpressure the opposite. Air/Fuel ratio that makes the best power at WOT under full load is 13-13.5.
For Turbo tuning, they have greater exhaust backpressure, means cam angles must be less than stock. Retarding the cam can mean picking up 40hp at high RPM. With the TL only SOHC, the vtec point should be high.
Add lots of timing at low end for torque gains, raise idle speed, reduce overlap in part throttle.
Supercharge tuning, is simular to N/A morors, loves overlap which is high cam advance. A/F raiot at WOT under full throttle is lower than NA, which is 11.5-12.5.
To tune for maximum power, the motor needs to breath like an air pump. Put in as much air as possible and make sure that the exhaust is not a restriction. Many Honda engines ignition timing is very conservative to accommodate for poor fuel.
Many times, you want to go Dyno tune your car. Many times it's 2-3 hours max and your car still isn't running proper. WOT Tuning can take couple of hours and part throttle can take several days. Wot tuning is only 0.1% of the time and part throttle is 99.9% of the time which the costs. WOT tuning offer no ignition control, can generate error codes. Acceleration depends on the power under the dyno curve. Higher peak power can actually generate less acceleration than a car with less peak power. Torque matters! More power between 3,000 and 6,000 is extremely important. The only time when that may be different and peak power becomes an issue is in drag racing, which WOT tuning is for.
A well tuned TL engine should have no dip during vtec and should be smooth.
I'm sure people had street tuned their pride or work in the past and it's a great start to knowing your engine.
For All Motor tuning, know the cam advance, in general with high back pressure - you should retard the cam angles and raise the Vtec point, with the low bakpressure the opposite. Air/Fuel ratio that makes the best power at WOT under full load is 13-13.5.
For Turbo tuning, they have greater exhaust backpressure, means cam angles must be less than stock. Retarding the cam can mean picking up 40hp at high RPM. With the TL only SOHC, the vtec point should be high.
Add lots of timing at low end for torque gains, raise idle speed, reduce overlap in part throttle.
Supercharge tuning, is simular to N/A morors, loves overlap which is high cam advance. A/F raiot at WOT under full throttle is lower than NA, which is 11.5-12.5.
To tune for maximum power, the motor needs to breath like an air pump. Put in as much air as possible and make sure that the exhaust is not a restriction. Many Honda engines ignition timing is very conservative to accommodate for poor fuel.
Many times, you want to go Dyno tune your car. Many times it's 2-3 hours max and your car still isn't running proper. WOT Tuning can take couple of hours and part throttle can take several days. Wot tuning is only 0.1% of the time and part throttle is 99.9% of the time which the costs. WOT tuning offer no ignition control, can generate error codes. Acceleration depends on the power under the dyno curve. Higher peak power can actually generate less acceleration than a car with less peak power. Torque matters! More power between 3,000 and 6,000 is extremely important. The only time when that may be different and peak power becomes an issue is in drag racing, which WOT tuning is for.
A well tuned TL engine should have no dip during vtec and should be smooth.
The following 4 users liked this post by bouncer07:
02-07-2012, 09:12 AM
#1031
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
^^ bouncer I can tell you definetly have experience with these newer motors and understand how power is been made that POST YOU MADE IS 100% CORRECT AND TELLS ME YOUVE DEFINETLY WORKED WITH THESE NEW MOTORS as this is the only way to truly understand how power is made ect ,im waiting on inaccurate logs regarding timing as im sure we are below oem timing maps to ensure safety on our base maps ,take into consideration our timing maps are kept rather low for safety and octane reasons ,if we were to throw in 100 or 110 octane we are surr we would make more power gains by utilizing more timing ,but most of the newly found gains id say is 70% a/f related ,but to show this it is better to show proof this way everyone can see so with oem logs im sure timing will be higher ...
02-07-2012, 09:57 AM
#1032
All motor
Bouncer: great, informative post. I have 1 comment though. Boosted cars (mainly turbo) want an exhaust with no backpressure at all; straight through and big (3" or larger depending on power). You said they would have more backpressure, which is where I got confused.
Pass: I'm very surprised to hear that the timing was kept lower than stock given the amazing gains. I can only imagine the kind of gains that could be seen with more timing. However, Boston said he was experiencing knock with the ECU...maybe that has something to do with the factory knock sensor location? As Innacurate has pointed out, there is a better location as to not experience as much feedback from the sensor. This is interesting stuff. I don't even know if I have a knock sensor on my Accord?
Pass: I'm very surprised to hear that the timing was kept lower than stock given the amazing gains. I can only imagine the kind of gains that could be seen with more timing. However, Boston said he was experiencing knock with the ECU...maybe that has something to do with the factory knock sensor location? As Innacurate has pointed out, there is a better location as to not experience as much feedback from the sensor. This is interesting stuff. I don't even know if I have a knock sensor on my Accord?
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Sonnick (02-07-2012)
02-07-2012, 11:08 AM
#1034
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@ swoosh
Yes, a high duration cam does hold the valve open longer. But, the goal is not to allow more A/F into the cylinder. The goal is to make the engine to become efficient at much higher RPM levels. But the engine is not getting more A/F into the cylinder than atmospheric pressure (generally speaking without nit picking pressure waves).
Regarding the small increase in torque. Yes, this can and does happen. But the small increase in TQ is peanuts in the overall picture.
HP = (TQ x RPM) / 5252
HP = (TQ x RPM) / 5252
HP = (220 x 5000) / 5252
HP = 209
versus
HP = (TQ x RPM) / 5252
HP = (242 x 5000) / 5252
HP = 230
versus
HP = (TQ x RPM) / 5252
HP = (220 x 8000) / 5252
HP = 335
By peanuts, I mean that it is insignificant to the big picture.
For sake of discussion, lets say that the big cam increased TQ by 10%. With that 10% increase in TQ, the HP increased by 21 HP.
But the way the cam works is by making the engine spin much higher RPMs. And in the case of higher RPMs, the increase is 125 HP.
See what I mean. The 125 HP increase is where the meat is... not with the 21 HP.
Yes, a high duration cam does hold the valve open longer. But, the goal is not to allow more A/F into the cylinder. The goal is to make the engine to become efficient at much higher RPM levels. But the engine is not getting more A/F into the cylinder than atmospheric pressure (generally speaking without nit picking pressure waves).
Regarding the small increase in torque. Yes, this can and does happen. But the small increase in TQ is peanuts in the overall picture.
HP = (TQ x RPM) / 5252
HP = (TQ x RPM) / 5252
HP = (220 x 5000) / 5252
HP = 209
versus
HP = (TQ x RPM) / 5252
HP = (242 x 5000) / 5252
HP = 230
versus
HP = (TQ x RPM) / 5252
HP = (220 x 8000) / 5252
HP = 335
By peanuts, I mean that it is insignificant to the big picture.
For sake of discussion, lets say that the big cam increased TQ by 10%. With that 10% increase in TQ, the HP increased by 21 HP.
But the way the cam works is by making the engine spin much higher RPMs. And in the case of higher RPMs, the increase is 125 HP.
See what I mean. The 125 HP increase is where the meat is... not with the 21 HP.
Here's a tuning seminar I went to when I was building Honda/Acura engines from Doug from Hondata. Tuning from experiences and from Acura/Honda engines for over 10 years, timing is one step, but another important tuning process is AFR. Coming from many tuning background with DSMLink to Hondata to NISTune, I've learned that the goals of tuning should be easy starting, steady idling, and good drivability. Tuning for economy and emissions is POSSIBLE. Now, to people who wants to move the rev limitor up, I don't think it will be necessary. The stock cams on our cars will stop making power near redline, anymore will just flat out. While tuning various Honda/Acura motors, I've found that Datalogging can be used to adjust fuel to get proper Lambda values. When I tune A/F ratio, I usually keep a cold air intake as it provides an additional 0.3-0.7 psi more boost. Now I haven't gotten the JnR Ecu, but in the past, I've found out that some cars run very rich at high RPM, like the 06+ SI or the RSX-S. With the 04+ TL having about the same compression as the K20's, I feel as though Honda has done it the same. It has conservative ignition timing and tuned for low emiision at high mileage like Innaccurate had mentioned. Not sure on the sensitivity to knock sensor but I would believe that once it's tuned on a stock TL motor, you same the same or better emission and economy.
I'm sure people had street tuned their pride or work in the past and it's a great start to knowing your engine.
For All Motor tuning, know the cam advance, in general with high back pressure - you should retard the cam angles and raise the Vtec point, with the low bakpressure the opposite. Air/Fuel ratio that makes the best power at WOT under full load is 13-13.5.
For Turbo tuning, they have greater exhaust backpressure, means cam angles must be less than stock. Retarding the cam can mean picking up 40hp at high RPM. With the TL only SOHC, the vtec point should be high.
Add lots of timing at low end for torque gains, raise idle speed, reduce overlap in part throttle.
Supercharge tuning, is simular to N/A morors, loves overlap which is high cam advance. A/F raiot at WOT under full throttle is lower than NA, which is 11.5-12.5.
To tune for maximum power, the motor needs to breath like an air pump. Put in as much air as possible and make sure that the exhaust is not a restriction. Many Honda engines ignition timing is very conservative to accommodate for poor fuel.
Many times, you want to go Dyno tune your car. Many times it's 2-3 hours max and your car still isn't running proper. WOT Tuning can take couple of hours and part throttle can take several days. Wot tuning is only 0.1% of the time and part throttle is 99.9% of the time which the costs. WOT tuning offer no ignition control, can generate error codes. Acceleration depends on the power under the dyno curve. Higher peak power can actually generate less acceleration than a car with less peak power. Torque matters! More power between 3,000 and 6,000 is extremely important. The only time when that may be different and peak power becomes an issue is in drag racing, which WOT tuning is for.
A well tuned TL engine should have no dip during vtec and should be smooth.
I'm sure people had street tuned their pride or work in the past and it's a great start to knowing your engine.
For All Motor tuning, know the cam advance, in general with high back pressure - you should retard the cam angles and raise the Vtec point, with the low bakpressure the opposite. Air/Fuel ratio that makes the best power at WOT under full load is 13-13.5.
For Turbo tuning, they have greater exhaust backpressure, means cam angles must be less than stock. Retarding the cam can mean picking up 40hp at high RPM. With the TL only SOHC, the vtec point should be high.
Add lots of timing at low end for torque gains, raise idle speed, reduce overlap in part throttle.
Supercharge tuning, is simular to N/A morors, loves overlap which is high cam advance. A/F raiot at WOT under full throttle is lower than NA, which is 11.5-12.5.
To tune for maximum power, the motor needs to breath like an air pump. Put in as much air as possible and make sure that the exhaust is not a restriction. Many Honda engines ignition timing is very conservative to accommodate for poor fuel.
Many times, you want to go Dyno tune your car. Many times it's 2-3 hours max and your car still isn't running proper. WOT Tuning can take couple of hours and part throttle can take several days. Wot tuning is only 0.1% of the time and part throttle is 99.9% of the time which the costs. WOT tuning offer no ignition control, can generate error codes. Acceleration depends on the power under the dyno curve. Higher peak power can actually generate less acceleration than a car with less peak power. Torque matters! More power between 3,000 and 6,000 is extremely important. The only time when that may be different and peak power becomes an issue is in drag racing, which WOT tuning is for.
A well tuned TL engine should have no dip during vtec and should be smooth.
^^ bouncer I can tell you definetly have experience with these newer motors and understand how power is been made that POST YOU MADE IS 100% CORRECT AND TELLS ME YOUVE DEFINETLY WORKED WITH THESE NEW MOTORS as this is the only way to truly understand how power is made ect ,im waiting on inaccurate logs regarding timing as im sure we are below oem timing maps to ensure safety on our base maps ,take into consideration our timing maps are kept rather low for safety and octane reasons ,if we were to throw in 100 or 110 octane we are surr we would make more power gains by utilizing more timing ,but most of the newly found gains id say is 70% a/f related ,but to show this it is better to show proof this way everyone can see so with oem logs im sure timing will be higher ...
02-07-2012, 01:01 PM
#1035
Burning Brakes
pass427 - You are the man. The community needed you while others backed out.
A higher octane rating is good for tuning purposes when running a much leaner condition than usually on boosted setups to extract more HP safely. But with the all motor set up, we will see a bump in power, I'd safely would like to say from vtec on ~ 2-3whp gain throughout the RPM.
KN_TL is right on.
A higher octane rating is good for tuning purposes when running a much leaner condition than usually on boosted setups to extract more HP safely. But with the all motor set up, we will see a bump in power, I'd safely would like to say from vtec on ~ 2-3whp gain throughout the RPM.
KN_TL is right on.
02-07-2012, 06:34 PM
#1036
TimmieT
Aem uego wideband afr
just finished installing the AEM Uego AFR on my 04 5AT, definitely needs a tune. cant wait to get the new ecu in. heres a vid of what a 5at base afr looks like. you can also see when the the fuel cut off turns on after you let off the throttle from 1/4-WOT. its seems to respond very well for a digital gauge but i find analog ones respond better.
the gauge dosent blink like that, my phone cant seem to capture it correctly.
<br>
the gauge dosent blink like that, my phone cant seem to capture it correctly.
<br>
02-07-2012, 07:23 PM
#1037
^That's just a mismatch of the refresh rate vs the rate of your camera. Happens a lot with those types and many video devices.
You mounted yours in the same spot I did. The UEGO was easy with a minimum of wires. The boost controller was a PITA with the wires and hoses. I liked it there but drew way too much attention.
You mounted yours in the same spot I did. The UEGO was easy with a minimum of wires. The boost controller was a PITA with the wires and hoses. I liked it there but drew way too much attention.
02-07-2012, 10:51 PM
#1038
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ALL THE PEOPLE WHO ORDERED THE ECU and have BASE MODEL
I just had a long conversation with Rodney about VTEC engagement and wanted to ask you fellas to help me update the spreadsheet....
In the Base model when we set the VTEC to 5000 rpm you will see some extra torque numbers....but will get a CEL....
Or you can leave the VTEC engagement to STOCK engagement and you will see a dip in the TQ and HP....your call.....
So let me know if you want the VTEC engagement at 5000rpm and CEL or just leave it as is....
Again this is for BASE models only....
I just had a long conversation with Rodney about VTEC engagement and wanted to ask you fellas to help me update the spreadsheet....
In the Base model when we set the VTEC to 5000 rpm you will see some extra torque numbers....but will get a CEL....
Or you can leave the VTEC engagement to STOCK engagement and you will see a dip in the TQ and HP....your call.....
So let me know if you want the VTEC engagement at 5000rpm and CEL or just leave it as is....
Again this is for BASE models only....
02-07-2012, 11:12 PM
#1040
TimmieT
is there any way we can get both? like stock vtec engagement on the ecu shipped, then be able to download it as a separate file and load it onto the ecu whenever we want to?