I hate cars

I finally made up my mind to do this. Long story short, took my GN to the bodyshop, heard some suspicious things, got it towed back home while I was out of town and what I got back was a shell but fortunately still has the mechanicals. That's a lawsuit and a whole different issue.

What I've decided to do is pull the methanol injection off the GN until I get it up and running again and try it on the TL. I'll have to change some settings, like the kick on point to ~0 vacuum vs 5psi boost. Not sure how I'm going to prevent it from discharging with the key on and engine off yet.

On the GN, there are two benefits. Higher octane and cooler charge temps. The latter is what I'm going after on the TL.

The pump is capable of 300psi and I was using about 20% methanol for fueling. Going to have to find a much, much smaller nozzle for the TL so I don't drown it.

Here's why I want to do it. I have tons of data logs from testing it with everything from water to water/alcohol to methanol. Methanol gave the best cooling and the TL hates heat.

On one pass, ambient was 80 degrees. Turbo outlet was nearly 280 degrees at 26psi. Intercooler outlet was 120 degrees. Air going into the throttlebody after a fine mist of methanol was 45 degrees. So basically it took 120 degree air and knocked it down to 45 degrees

It may or may not work on the TL but it's free and I'm bored. I can't spray nearly as much since there's no way to back off fueling so cooling might not be as great but the potential is there to have winter power in the summer. I'm also going to play around with 87 octane and injecting it at a lower throttle %.


As a side benefit, running a little water through it every now and then does the same thing as seafoam. I tore down one of my motors at 25K and there was no carbon on the turbine, headers, heads, or pistons.

ndabunka

"TL hates heat"? Turbo? Whatchu talk'N 'bout Willis? All that makes sense on the GN but the TL isn't really a heat sensitive creature. Oh yea, and the high 10.5:1 compression on the TL is VERY sensitive to boost so if you DO meth your 3rd-gen TL, you''l probably be back on here "crying in your beer". But, since your board... let us know how it works out for you in the end

TCM 01 CL-S

Italiacls on the 2nd Gen CL (where I'm at) is running meth injection on his supercharged CLS, he has a couple of threads about it that may give you some information to help you out since our engines are pretty similar. I don't know too much about meth injection myself, so I personally can't help you there.

lookinco

I am running meth injection and it's been nothing but great. Intake temperature would stay steady at 80~90F under boost. Also it allows me to run a pretty aggressive timing with its octane boost.

timmahh

Are you trying to blow the fking car up before you trade it in?

Your last few posts have been off the wall modfications and changes to a car you don't appear to like...

I hate cars

Methanol is very safe. No chance of blowing it up. I've been using it for years.

billinohio

we have used it pulling tractors for years. most just use water. diesels would run 4-5 gallons of fuel and maybe a gallon of water on a 300 foot run. guys are running 3 to 4 turbos too. heard horror stories of a guy that thought nitromethane would be interesting. instant ruin your motor so just dont do that!

I hate cars

It's kind of like running hydrogen peroxide in the methanol tank. Insane hp gains but way too dangerous from a tuning perspective. Methanol is very safe. You would have to be a moron to mess up a motor. I've only used it in turbo applications where it's most effective. I've always wanted to see how much or how little it would do in a NA application. My guess is very little.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

AEM just released a similar setup:

The AEM Water Injection Kit is a safe and economical way to reduce air
inlet temperatures to increase boost pressure for more power in your
DSM.

Lower air inlet temperatures allow users to advance timing without having to
run higher-octane fuel. This is the most complete kit available on the market
straight out of the box- no additional parts required.

AEM 30-3000 WATER INJECTION KEY FEATURES:
• Includes everything you need for installation
• Progressive, controller-driven 150 PSI pump
• One-gallon tank with integral fluid level sensor
• Dash light for system status and low fluid warning
• Alcohol Compatible (up to 50% in solution with water)
• Progressive controller, provides boost-dependent
variable flow
• Output provided to either decrease timing or boost if the system runs out of
fluid or detects an error
• Includes three jets to match your power requirement

It's going to be about $425 shipped.

jayunsplanet

iTrader: (1)

For "alcohol" injection can't you just use windshield washer fluid (concentrate)? And if it's too rich, just water it down? I've looked into it before. It's cheap, effective, safe, and not car specific.
http://www.snowperformance.net/products.php?p_cat=324

ACTROS

iTrader: (7)

I was told that there were traces of rust post meth use and when supercharger was uninstalled for resale. Could meth promote rust in the engine or the supercharger??? This is my concern with chemical inter cooling.

I hate cars

Always inject methanol after the blower/turbo. It's hard on aluminum and sometimes not compatable with supercharger seals. It also gives maximum cooling with the hot discharge air vs ambient incoming air.

mishar

By injecting water into stock TL engine you will get nothing. Actually you will loose some power. If you supercharge it and get boost to the limit you will still get way more by using proper intercooler and high octane fuel than by injecting water. Methanol is useless there anyways. Its cooling capacity is smaller than water and it has 20% less energy than gas. Octane number boost is not nearly enough to compensate for that.

I hate cars

Methanol vaporizes in the intake tract drastically cooling the air. Water vaporizes in the combustion chamber which would do nothing on a NA car. I have data logs of methanol, water, alcohol, and a combo of both. The methanol cools intake air by over 70 degrees.

ussi

iTrader: (1)

I just installed the snow methanol kit to spray in through my CAI, you think I should move the nozzle to behind the SC?

csmeance

inject it on the part of the blower that attaches to the throttle body/intake manifold.

mishar

Sure it does. But that is not all:

• By injecting anything anywhere in between air inlet and valves you are reducing amount of air going into cylinders - equals less power.
• Methanol lowers temperature but takes some oxygen to burn. That leaves some gas unburned and that gas contains more energy than burned methanol - equals less power.
• Methanol takes less energy to evaporate than water, so it lowers temperature less than water – equals less power.

Instead of methanol it is way simpler to enrich mixture with same cooling effect and no side effects. If high octane fuel is used it diminish methanol octane bust effect.

I hate cars

Yes.. You will see a huge difference after the blower. It will make a much bigger difference cooling 300 degree air than 90 degree air.

mishar

I don’t think so. Same amount of injected methanol (no matter what I think about it) will take same energy to evaporate wherever you inject it. It may not evaporate that quickly if you inject it before buster, but it will eventually. Resulting temperature will be the same.

I hate cars

It displaces some oxygen but it's proven not enough to make a measurable difference.

I'm thinking of using it strictly for the cooling effect. It doesn't take much to signifigantly cool the charge air. Not using it for the octane.

Methanol will always lower intake temps much more than water. I have logs to back this up. In fact water didn't show a difference of more than 10 degrees on the guage. Methanol completely flashes in the intake tract. Water enters the combustion chamber in droplets so it doesn't release much energy in the intake tract. I've spend many hours trying to get the best results on pump gas. Regardless of theory, methanol lowered temps 7X more than water.

If just enriching the mixture would provide the cooling effect of methanol, everyone would be doing it. Fuel injectors are aimed at the intake valve and all the fuel doesn't have time to evaporate and cool the intake charge.

I hate cars

Not true. Again, got the data to back it up. I've injected pre-turbo, tried a dual nozzle setup with pre and post turbo, and just post turbo. Post turbo showed a much, much bigger difference. Pre turbo benefits are mostly octane related, not cooling.

mishar

Unfortunately methanol doesn’t know what it is used for. It just follows laws of nature. So, you will get some octane bust, you will get less oxygen into cylinders, some of it will be consumed by the lesser fuel and cooling effect will be smaller than if you use water. And at the end what are you going to do with colder mixture with less oxygen? You can only hope that ECM will know how to use it, but I don’t think there is anything available even if it is so mart, which I also doubt.

I believe that your results are accurate, but you actually do not care about temperature in your intake manifold. You care about temperature at the end of compression cycle and by that time all water evaporates taking about three times more energy.

Actually everybody is cooling mixture by enriching it. That’s exactly what all engines are doing at full throttle – enriching mixture by up to 15%.

mishar

Well, that energy equation is right. Only thing I can think of is that your turbo was running colder, what is not really important.

mishar

That's what I wrote. This editor is getting crazy.

csmeance

uh... I may not be that good with cars, but from what I have seen and read all these years this is what I think. A supercharger makes the air hotter when it is compressed, right? Well if it does, cooling it after compression would make more sense rather than cooling it before compression, as it will become hotter. Second of all, injecting methanol/water before the blower can cause damage to the blower. Damaging a 5K blower isn't the best thing. This is just what i can say after reading all of the stuff on the forum since I joined. Just to reiterate, I have no first hand experience with this, this is just based off of reading stuff. A-Train, you should comment...

I hate cars

This is what I wanted to say but I was running out of time. You are correct.

The reason I think it will make a small improvement on the TL is I gained power on the turbo car without turning up the boost.

You have to take into account water doesn't burn and methanol does. Water will make a NA car lose power.

Again, when injecting methanol we always do it at least 12" before the throttlebody. This gives it time to cool the air. Fuel injectors squirt right on the intake valve or in the combustion chamber on direct injection motors.

Last, I probably wouldn't bother trying this normally but I already have the kit, the GN is down for the year, and I'm bored.

csmeance

As well using water can increase chance for motor damage correct? Also if you don't mind telling us, what happened to the GN?

mishar

Quote:

Originally Posted by I hate cars

T

It could be that mixture was a bit lean so with methanol you just got it right. May be that it was knocking a bit so that sensor could not detect it. I doubt that TL has any of those problems. Another problem is how to measure it? Successive runs on a dyno would be the most reliable way.

Quote:

You have to take into account water doesn't burn and methanol does. Water will make a NA car lose power.

I agree with that.

Quote:

Again, when injecting methanol we always do it at least 12" before the throttlebody. This gives it time to cool the air.

You just need time to evaporate whatever you are injecting and it has to happen before the end of compression.

Quote:

Last, I probably wouldn't bother trying this normally but I already have the kit, the GN is down for the year, and I'm bored.

Well I am not trying to make you not to do it. I just think that you will not get anything, but I may be wrong. At least you won’t be bored for some time.

I hate cars

I will say that I agree, gains will probably be very minimal and would not be worth the money. Just something I've wanted to try on a NA car for a long time now to satisfy my own curiosity.

I picked up .2 seconds on the turbo car without changing boost or timing. Granted, the inlet air was hotter than a TL will ever see so the gains might be less. Then again it was in the high 11s back then so I might see the same gains on a 14sec car.

It was, however tuned very well before. Audible knock detector and wideband 02 to monitor things so the meth didn't cure any preexisting problems. My TL for some reason needs octane. The surging came back today so I finally put some 100 octane and it seems to have cured the surging. Has to be knock. Unfortunately the octane is just masking the real problem...

DMMTL A-SPEC

As close to the Tb as possible is best. Which nozzel are you going to use.

I hate cars

Probably an M-10 with the pressure turned way down as long as it makes a nice pattern. I need to cut the volume by at least 75% for the TL.

DMMTL A-SPEC

You could use a check valve to lower the pressure.


Sounds like a cool idea on NA,I ran it on my evo and it worked great with fail-safe built in..
Here is a good thread on Alky kits and flows....
http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthr...=292953&page=8
Good luck and keep us updated

Atrain

I hate cars,

N/A you're wasting your time. I think we established that part so we'll move on.

Boosted without an intercooler...yes it will help. How much, it really depends on a few factors.

Dealing with "other" types of vehicles on the dyno and at the track, the "other" vehicles showed tremendous air charge temperature drops from 60-100 degrees F. depending on ambient and the mix of methanol.

On one test with 7-psi of boost from an Eaton M112 blower and NO intercooler we saw as much as 110 degree F. drop in ACT's at WOT.

With the set-up I was using (intercooled M90S) one person tried to spray the methanol injection into the I/C brick (after the supercharger and after the intercooler heat exchanger). The results were less than spectacular but the ACT's dropped off another 40 degrees F at WOT with 9-psi of boost.

I say just use nitrous oxide. It cools the air charge and brings oxygen to the table. All you need is more fuel.

A-Train

I hate cars

I was leaning toward this when I had the surging problem as a way to cure it. Now that it's gone, this thing is dead. If I ever do any real mods, I may use my progressive kit for the fueling since so far there's no way to add additional fuel yet.

You've got to love methanol on the FI cars though. Nothing like running 28psi boost with the charge air cooler than ambient.

Nitrous would be the smarter choice on the TL but with my type of pesonality I would end up with a 250 shot before long lol.

kosstick

So is that AEM water injection kit useless on a 07 Tl Type s with a CAI?

mishar

I thought that you are the one who posted picture of that bent connecting rod in the other tread.

Atrain

mishar,

Acura engine's do not follow the same laws of physics that other engines do, you know that right?

Yes...it's a gamble either way. Those connecting rods were damaged Naturally Aspirated.

A-Train

mishar

Yes! Star Trek physics.

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

There's a good article in Turbo (Sept 07 issue) on using nitrous in an F/I setup. It refers to a B18C and the ZEX kit but the information is still good.

03TL_S

why dont you guys stop whining, and let the man try out his theory. Give us some dyno results or somthin. Put up or shut up.