Crazy Idea -> 08 TL-S 6MT SHAWD
11-10-2010, 12:29 PM
#41
Instructor
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Central New Jersey
Age: 39
Posts: 170
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
4 Posts
UPDATE:
Two things - One we got the "to be modded" TL-S on a lift to check out the bottom.. He's got Tein coilovers and stiffer A/R bars installed in the TL-S. Now, there's a "boot" or indent (not sure how to call it) running down the middle of the TL-S.. ( not sure if it was put there for the wiring... maybe, the designers were planning on making it AWD thus left it there, because most FWD got rid of it)
There's wiring in there and crap but I think that will help a lot with installing the rear diff. If we can move all the shit out from that we can run the drive shaft there.
Second - WE spoke to another Acura guy and through my buddies company got a sneak peak at the schematics for the "concept" TL-S and yes indeed it was a "proposed idea" for the TL-S to include the SH-AWD. I also found out the J35 engine uses a different 6-speed transmission (with different mounts and bolt patterns) than the regular 6-speed on the J32 (that's what one of the "technical advisors" told me at an acura dealer)
We are trying to confirm if in fact the SH-AWD from a 4G TL will mount directly to the J35. The guys are also looking for a "donor" 4G TL SH-AWD (With a 6-speed) and they're really hard to find at scrap yards... They need to measure front and rear axle width and see how much needs to be modified. The Acura dealership around here won't let us even get close to one of their 4G TL's that are on the lift.. they even had a differential that they took off the 4G SH-AWD TL laying in the shop and they wouldn't let us come in and take measurements.
So at this stage they're just trying to get all the info together and see how much it will all cost. It's not like we got deep pockets (I don't for sure, I'm still a student in college and I gotta pay for my school and crap) so they want to get the total approx. cost.
We also got another crazy ass idea!!! To make this car stand out, try to Twin-Turbo the J35
(of course all parts piping for the turbos and intercooler will be custom fabricated) But that's a separate subject, we would pretty much need to swap everything out, from pistons and rings to cylinder head, valves, springs (And it's not like they sell these so they have to be custom forged) But again this is just an idea, and its a totally separate project idea at this point. Oh yeah and throw in a 100 wet shot.. We were just wondering if it's possible to make a 10 second TL type S AWD 6-speed.. <--- It would be a monster lol..oh and keep all the interior options in tact
I'll keep ya posted..
Two things - One we got the "to be modded" TL-S on a lift to check out the bottom.. He's got Tein coilovers and stiffer A/R bars installed in the TL-S. Now, there's a "boot" or indent (not sure how to call it) running down the middle of the TL-S.. ( not sure if it was put there for the wiring... maybe, the designers were planning on making it AWD thus left it there, because most FWD got rid of it)
There's wiring in there and crap but I think that will help a lot with installing the rear diff. If we can move all the shit out from that we can run the drive shaft there.
Second - WE spoke to another Acura guy and through my buddies company got a sneak peak at the schematics for the "concept" TL-S and yes indeed it was a "proposed idea" for the TL-S to include the SH-AWD. I also found out the J35 engine uses a different 6-speed transmission (with different mounts and bolt patterns) than the regular 6-speed on the J32 (that's what one of the "technical advisors" told me at an acura dealer)
We are trying to confirm if in fact the SH-AWD from a 4G TL will mount directly to the J35. The guys are also looking for a "donor" 4G TL SH-AWD (With a 6-speed) and they're really hard to find at scrap yards... They need to measure front and rear axle width and see how much needs to be modified. The Acura dealership around here won't let us even get close to one of their 4G TL's that are on the lift.. they even had a differential that they took off the 4G SH-AWD TL laying in the shop and they wouldn't let us come in and take measurements.
So at this stage they're just trying to get all the info together and see how much it will all cost. It's not like we got deep pockets (I don't for sure, I'm still a student in college and I gotta pay for my school and crap) so they want to get the total approx. cost.
We also got another crazy ass idea!!! To make this car stand out, try to Twin-Turbo the J35
(of course all parts piping for the turbos and intercooler will be custom fabricated) But that's a separate subject, we would pretty much need to swap everything out, from pistons and rings to cylinder head, valves, springs (And it's not like they sell these so they have to be custom forged) But again this is just an idea, and its a totally separate project idea at this point. Oh yeah and throw in a 100 wet shot.. We were just wondering if it's possible to make a 10 second TL type S AWD 6-speed.. <--- It would be a monster lol..oh and keep all the interior options in tact I'll keep ya posted..
11-10-2010, 01:04 PM
#42
takin care of Business in
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kansas City, MO
Age: 40
Posts: 30,994
Received 4,732 Likes
on
4,064 Posts
11-10-2010, 01:30 PM
#44
Team Owner
UPDATE:
Two things - One we got the "to be modded" TL-S on a lift to check out the bottom.. He's got Tein coilovers and stiffer A/R bars installed in the TL-S. Now, there's a "boot" or indent (not sure how to call it) running down the middle of the TL-S.. ( not sure if it was put there for the wiring... maybe, the designers were planning on making it AWD thus left it there, because most FWD got rid of it)
There's wiring in there and crap but I think that will help a lot with installing the rear diff. If we can move all the shit out from that we can run the drive shaft there.
Second - WE spoke to another Acura guy and through my buddies company got a sneak peak at the schematics for the "concept" TL-S and yes indeed it was a "proposed idea" for the TL-S to include the SH-AWD. I also found out the J35 engine uses a different 6-speed transmission (with different mounts and bolt patterns) than the regular 6-speed on the J32 (that's what one of the "technical advisors" told me at an acura dealer)
We are trying to confirm if in fact the SH-AWD from a 4G TL will mount directly to the J35. The guys are also looking for a "donor" 4G TL SH-AWD (With a 6-speed) and they're really hard to find at scrap yards... They need to measure front and rear axle width and see how much needs to be modified. The Acura dealership around here won't let us even get close to one of their 4G TL's that are on the lift.. they even had a differential that they took off the 4G SH-AWD TL laying in the shop and they wouldn't let us come in and take measurements.
So at this stage they're just trying to get all the info together and see how much it will all cost. It's not like we got deep pockets (I don't for sure, I'm still a student in college and I gotta pay for my school and crap) so they want to get the total approx. cost.
We also got another crazy ass idea!!! To make this car stand out, try to Twin-Turbo the J35 (of course all parts piping for the turbos and intercooler will be custom fabricated) But that's a separate subject, we would pretty much need to swap everything out, from pistons and rings to cylinder head, valves, springs (And it's not like they sell these so they have to be custom forged) But again this is just an idea, and its a totally separate project idea at this point. Oh yeah and throw in a 100 wet shot.. We were just wondering if it's possible to make a 10 second TL type S AWD 6-speed.. <--- It would be a monster lol..oh and keep all the interior options in tact
I'll keep ya posted..
Two things - One we got the "to be modded" TL-S on a lift to check out the bottom.. He's got Tein coilovers and stiffer A/R bars installed in the TL-S. Now, there's a "boot" or indent (not sure how to call it) running down the middle of the TL-S.. ( not sure if it was put there for the wiring... maybe, the designers were planning on making it AWD thus left it there, because most FWD got rid of it)
There's wiring in there and crap but I think that will help a lot with installing the rear diff. If we can move all the shit out from that we can run the drive shaft there.
Second - WE spoke to another Acura guy and through my buddies company got a sneak peak at the schematics for the "concept" TL-S and yes indeed it was a "proposed idea" for the TL-S to include the SH-AWD. I also found out the J35 engine uses a different 6-speed transmission (with different mounts and bolt patterns) than the regular 6-speed on the J32 (that's what one of the "technical advisors" told me at an acura dealer)
We are trying to confirm if in fact the SH-AWD from a 4G TL will mount directly to the J35. The guys are also looking for a "donor" 4G TL SH-AWD (With a 6-speed) and they're really hard to find at scrap yards... They need to measure front and rear axle width and see how much needs to be modified. The Acura dealership around here won't let us even get close to one of their 4G TL's that are on the lift.. they even had a differential that they took off the 4G SH-AWD TL laying in the shop and they wouldn't let us come in and take measurements.
So at this stage they're just trying to get all the info together and see how much it will all cost. It's not like we got deep pockets (I don't for sure, I'm still a student in college and I gotta pay for my school and crap) so they want to get the total approx. cost.
We also got another crazy ass idea!!! To make this car stand out, try to Twin-Turbo the J35
(of course all parts piping for the turbos and intercooler will be custom fabricated) But that's a separate subject, we would pretty much need to swap everything out, from pistons and rings to cylinder head, valves, springs (And it's not like they sell these so they have to be custom forged) But again this is just an idea, and its a totally separate project idea at this point. Oh yeah and throw in a 100 wet shot.. We were just wondering if it's possible to make a 10 second TL type S AWD 6-speed.. <--- It would be a monster lol..oh and keep all the interior options in tact I'll keep ya posted..
If you're looking for a 10sec TL, just stick with a large single turbo, no nitrous. Twins are more linear but for drag racing a large single will spool quicker and slam you in the back. It's more of an on/off feeling. Nitrous will just add more tuning headaches coupled with the turbo. The J35 flows more than enough air to get there with just a turbo.
Heads will not have to be touched. They flow more than enough. I would only touch the exhaust valves if they aren't a high grade of stainless or Inconel. I've heard they are inconel already. Stock valve springs should be fine since you really don't want to raise the rev limit and you don't need larger cams. If you end up running high boost there's a small chance you may need stiffer intake springs.
Stock crank should work fine. Rods and pistons will have to be upgraded. These are extremely easy and cheap. You're looking at $1,200 for all. At this level you're not using Acura specific parts anymore. You send them the specs of the stock rods and they will probably have an off the shelf part already in stock. With the ultra small bore of the J35, pistons may not be an off the shelf item but a custom set will run about $800 and it usually takes less than a month to get them. JE does custom stuff all day every day, it's no big deal. The next thing to worry about is cylinder strength and cylinder walk. There are several options to help in this area.
Honestly, making the power is the easy part. The engine management is what's going to slow the project. Something like this would greatly beneft from a stand alone ECU. More power, less headaches, and much better engine reliability.
You can either use the stock ECU and figure out how to make it work with 10 second power or use a stand alone and figure out how to make all of the auxiliary systems work.
Just keep in mind, there will be a lot of disappointments and broken parts on the way to 10 second land. My "10 second" combo ran 12s (I was going 11s with a nearly stock setup) the first time out.
11-10-2010, 01:39 PM
#45
Your Friendly Canadian
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Age: 31
Posts: 17,431
Received 1,485 Likes
on
1,049 Posts
Holy cow, one project at a time, man.If you're really serious about this, why not consider searching for a sponsor?
11-10-2010, 04:46 PM
#46
J36Twingt28r's,nextgt30r
^^ +1 stop teasing us and complete one project at a time already 
. I am getting my twin turbo installed on my j36 this winter 
. just to give u some figures, a correctly built twin turbo will be close to 10k in labor and parts. i am with IHC in that for drag racing get the single large turbo, im doing twin turbo cause i wanna be able to have it streetable and the bling factor of twin's versus single. anyway back to the sh-awd me and paul(NVA-AV6) are waiting a couple years to buy the SH-AWD 6-speed since it is so new and shit ton of money right now so please be aware that money is gonna be very necessary.
i hope ur just not teasing us bud, i would love to see this done.... however, if ur just gonna swap the whole 4g tl engine + transmission to ur 3rd gen imho just buy a 4g tl 6-speed since it will end up costing more than a new 4g tl 6-speed sh-awd.
. I am getting my twin turbo installed on my j36 this winter . just to give u some figures, a correctly built twin turbo will be close to 10k in labor and parts. i am with IHC in that for drag racing get the single large turbo, im doing twin turbo cause i wanna be able to have it streetable and the bling factor of twin's versus single. anyway back to the sh-awd me and paul(NVA-AV6) are waiting a couple years to buy the SH-AWD 6-speed since it is so new and shit ton of money right now so please be aware that money is gonna be very necessary.i hope ur just not teasing us bud, i would love to see this done.... however, if ur just gonna swap the whole 4g tl engine + transmission to ur 3rd gen imho just buy a 4g tl 6-speed since it will end up costing more than a new 4g tl 6-speed sh-awd.
Last edited by tenzingsherpa; 11-10-2010 at 04:52 PM.
11-10-2010, 06:53 PM
#47
Second - WE spoke to another Acura guy and through my buddies company got a sneak peak at the schematics for the "concept" TL-S and yes indeed it was a "proposed idea" for the TL-S to include the SH-AWD. I also found out the J35 engine uses a different 6-speed transmission (with different mounts and bolt patterns) than the regular 6-speed on the J32 (that's what one of the "technical advisors" told me at an acura dealer)
We are trying to confirm if in fact the SH-AWD from a 4G TL will mount directly to the J35. The guys are also looking for a "donor" 4G TL SH-AWD (With a 6-speed) and they're really hard to find at scrap yards... They need to measure front and rear axle width and see how much needs to be modified. The Acura dealership around here won't let us even get close to one of their 4G TL's that are on the lift.. they even had a differential that they took off the 4G SH-AWD TL laying in the shop and they wouldn't let us come in and take measurements.
I'll keep ya posted..
I already told you the j35a8 transmission was different than the j32. Thats why the the AWD transmission will not work with the j32 but will in theory work with the j35a8.
How accurate would you need the measurements to be. I could probably get 10-15 minutes with one of them on a lift.
11-11-2010, 07:55 PM
#48
Instructor
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Central New Jersey
Age: 39
Posts: 170
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
4 Posts
@ I Hate Cars - Thank you for all the info, I appreciate it!.
@TLdream - I appreciate the offer, thing is we HAVE to find a donor 4G SH-AWD or the whole drivetrain from it in any case, but having some idea of how much wider the rear differential is would be nice, but again - It would be easier if we had the car sitting right there in front of us on a lift, this way we can measure everything and get an idea of what needs to be changed.
@ Steve5.9 - OK OK no more teasing, I will update as soon as I have something solid! (easy on the leg humping might hurt something )
@TLdream - I appreciate the offer, thing is we HAVE to find a donor 4G SH-AWD or the whole drivetrain from it in any case, but having some idea of how much wider the rear differential is would be nice, but again - It would be easier if we had the car sitting right there in front of us on a lift, this way we can measure everything and get an idea of what needs to be changed.
@ Steve5.9 - OK OK no more teasing, I will update as soon as I have something solid! (easy on the leg humping might hurt something )
11-11-2010, 08:06 PM
#49
I'll be honest.... I was going to skim over the post, look at the OP's age and then laugh. But then I read "me and a few engineering buddies...." I wish you guys luck! Even just an 08 SH-AWD TL-S would be awesome. You guys are aiming high!
11-11-2010, 08:38 PM
#50
Team Owner
Just one more thought, I've never looked into how the torque is managed front and rear and possibly side to side in the rear. I've read the F/R is electrionically managed. I wonder if it would be possible to use a more traditional setup in the existing transfer case so that it would not rely on the electronics of the 4G for AWD operation.
I mean, you would lose mpg with full time AWD but at the drag strip it would work great, better than an electronic setup.
I mean, you would lose mpg with full time AWD but at the drag strip it would work great, better than an electronic setup.
11-12-2010, 12:08 PM
#51
Here is a Celica converted into a GT-Four.
http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=68701
http://www.6gc.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=68701
11-25-2010, 09:14 PM
#60
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/09-Ac...Q5fAccessories
Not sure if you have seen that or not, but they have the rear end, chances are they have the rest of the car.
Not sure if you have seen that or not, but they have the rear end, chances are they have the rest of the car.
11-26-2010, 01:05 PM
#62
Instructor
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Central New Jersey
Age: 39
Posts: 170
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
4 Posts
UPDATE: Well we did some calculations, and we're gonna need about $25,000-$30,000 (depending on how much stuff we break on the way LOL) to pull it off, including all the performance upgrades. Found the front end and the back end and some other crap and still need a bunch of other crap. The school said they "might" pay $10,000 to support the "engineering project" made by their students, BUT they'll own some rights to the project and we'll be required to attend conventions and crap like that :\ So not sure about it yet..
Waiting for school to finish, got exams and etc.. and after new years (hopefully) we'll get on it!!! I'll post some pics once we start tearing the car apart!
Waiting for school to finish, got exams and etc.. and after new years (hopefully) we'll get on it!!! I'll post some pics once we start tearing the car apart!
11-26-2010, 02:14 PM
#63
http://www.club3g.com/forum/members-rides/89256-first-awd-3rd-gen-eclipse.html
11-26-2010, 07:30 PM
#64
I'm not sure I agree with you here. The weight and complexity of adding SH-AWD to the TL-S may not be justified in gains. This is a heavy car to begin with and the additional weight would make it even more of a dog out of the hole, even if you are pushing with all four wheels. Moreover, if the TL-S came with the RL motor (it does), and RL drivetrain, and was faster than the RL, who would buy the RL??
Back on topic...
Has anyone considered that some adjustments to the suspension would be necessary if someone were to convert a TL to RWD or AWD? I would be afraid that if left alone the car would squat too much on a hard launch and maybe have some other possibly unpredictable handling quirks that would surface when the car switched to pushing instead of pulling.
If it were me, and I had the time and resources to pull something like this off, I would consider waiting for the next-gen RL which is rumored (last I checked) to get a V8 and RWD. That would probably be much more difficult, but that much more rewarding in the end.
Back on topic...
Has anyone considered that some adjustments to the suspension would be necessary if someone were to convert a TL to RWD or AWD? I would be afraid that if left alone the car would squat too much on a hard launch and maybe have some other possibly unpredictable handling quirks that would surface when the car switched to pushing instead of pulling.
If it were me, and I had the time and resources to pull something like this off, I would consider waiting for the next-gen RL which is rumored (last I checked) to get a V8 and RWD. That would probably be much more difficult, but that much more rewarding in the end.
11-27-2010, 10:29 PM
#67
Three Wheelin'
^We're sorry your highness..
A 20-30K first time project takes lots of time. A long time is expected just in R&D, then you need the guesstimated $$. Then the fabrication, then room for unexpected errors or calculations..........
(I'm not involved in this project, just speaking on their behalf)
Patience dood
A 20-30K first time project takes lots of time. A long time is expected just in R&D, then you need the guesstimated $$. Then the fabrication, then room for unexpected errors or calculations..........
(I'm not involved in this project, just speaking on their behalf)
Patience dood
11-27-2010, 10:50 PM
#69
^We're sorry your highness..
A 20-30K first time project takes lots of time. A long time is expected just in R&D, then you need the guesstimated $$. Then the fabrication, then room for unexpected errors or calculations..........
(I'm not involved in this project, just speaking on their behalf)
Patience dood
A 20-30K first time project takes lots of time. A long time is expected just in R&D, then you need the guesstimated $$. Then the fabrication, then room for unexpected errors or calculations..........
(I'm not involved in this project, just speaking on their behalf)
Patience dood
11-28-2010, 05:47 PM
#70
Instructor
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Central New Jersey
Age: 39
Posts: 170
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
4 Posts
@previous posts - don't forget guys, we're doing this part-time. It's not like we sit in the shop 24/7 working on this. We all got jobs to go to, and school and etc... Don't expect us to pop out with the finished project in a week, this isn't "Overhaulin'" It will take time.
B.T.W. - a quick question to anyone that might know - do you think it would be theoretically possible to make the car top out (redline) at 200 + mph given that it will have at least 450+hp at the wheels(hopefully) and no governor -- How much would the 5th, 6th gear and the Final Drive ratio need to be adjusted approximately?
B.T.W. - a quick question to anyone that might know - do you think it would be theoretically possible to make the car top out (redline) at 200 + mph given that it will have at least 450+hp at the wheels(hopefully) and no governor -- How much would the 5th, 6th gear and the Final Drive ratio need to be adjusted approximately?
11-28-2010, 05:58 PM
#71
@previous posts - don't forget guys, we're doing this part-time. It's not like we sit in the shop 24/7 working on this. We all got jobs to go to, and school and etc... Don't expect us to pop out with the finished project in a week, this isn't "Overhaulin'" It will take time.
B.T.W. - a quick question to anyone that might know - do you think it would be theoretically possible to make the car top out (redline) at 200 + mph given that it will have at least 450+hp at the wheels(hopefully) and no governor -- How much would the 5th, 6th gear and the Final Drive ratio need to be adjusted approximately?
B.T.W. - a quick question to anyone that might know - do you think it would be theoretically possible to make the car top out (redline) at 200 + mph given that it will have at least 450+hp at the wheels(hopefully) and no governor -- How much would the 5th, 6th gear and the Final Drive ratio need to be adjusted approximately?
11-28-2010, 05:58 PM
#72
Team Owner
@previous posts - don't forget guys, we're doing this part-time. It's not like we sit in the shop 24/7 working on this. We all got jobs to go to, and school and etc... Don't expect us to pop out with the finished project in a week, this isn't "Overhaulin'" It will take time.
B.T.W. - a quick question to anyone that might know - do you think it would be theoretically possible to make the car top out (redline) at 200 + mph given that it will have at least 450+hp at the wheels(hopefully) and no governor -- How much would the 5th, 6th gear and the Final Drive ratio need to be adjusted approximately?
B.T.W. - a quick question to anyone that might know - do you think it would be theoretically possible to make the car top out (redline) at 200 + mph given that it will have at least 450+hp at the wheels(hopefully) and no governor -- How much would the 5th, 6th gear and the Final Drive ratio need to be adjusted approximately?
450hp won't be enough to go 200mph. Aerodynamics are much more important for breaking 200mph but it's going to take some aerodynamic changes and aids along with a minimum of 600hp.
Last edited by I hate cars; 11-28-2010 at 06:06 PM.
11-28-2010, 07:35 PM
#74
Pro
^I definitely have to disagree with that. If they can keep the weight down to 4800lbs and 450-500bhp should get them to 200...an e60 M5 pulls to 207 with 507bhp and it weighs a little over 4klbs...it is a high revving NA engine but still...and the drag coeff. is worse than the TL...(.31vs.29)
Last edited by AtlM5; 11-28-2010 at 07:39 PM.
11-28-2010, 08:03 PM
#75
Team Owner
^I definitely have to disagree with that. If they can keep the weight down to 4800lbs and 450-500bhp should get them to 200...an e60 M5 pulls to 207 with 507bhp and it weighs a little over 4klbs...it is a high revving NA engine but still...and the drag coeff. is worse than the TL...(.31vs.29)
11-28-2010, 09:09 PM
#76
Pro
Oh...I thought he decided against the AWD and was going for RWD. I think with the AWD it might be too hard to get some good torque vectoring management. It just wount be the great handling AWD people think of.
And I've seen 205 but w/e. I guess there would need to be some aero work dont to get some extra downforce ect. which will probably mess with the drag coeff. I guess if they go through with the project we'll find out..but thatll probably be one of the last things they worry about.
And I've seen 205 but w/e. I guess there would need to be some aero work dont to get some extra downforce ect. which will probably mess with the drag coeff. I guess if they go through with the project we'll find out..but thatll probably be one of the last things they worry about.
11-28-2010, 09:17 PM
#77
Team Owner
Oh...I thought he decided against the AWD and was going for RWD. I think with the AWD it might be too hard to get some good torque vectoring management. It just wount be the great handling AWD people think of.
And I've seen 205 but w/e. I guess there would need to be some aero work dont to get some extra downforce ect. which will probably mess with the drag coeff. I guess if they go through with the project we'll find out..but thatll probably be one of the last things they worry about.
And I've seen 205 but w/e. I guess there would need to be some aero work dont to get some extra downforce ect. which will probably mess with the drag coeff. I guess if they go through with the project we'll find out..but thatll probably be one of the last things they worry about.
What I was getting at with the TL's drag coefficient is sometimes it can go against you at very high speeds. I've had mine to 160mph (indicated) and while I didn't try any maneuvers with it, it did feel very light. It's just speculation but I would not want to be the first to attempt 200mph lol.
11-29-2010, 09:39 AM
#78
All motor
^^ Jeez. I would've never thought our J series could take our cars to 160mph without heavy mods.
11-29-2010, 08:50 PM
#79
I love this website.
This thread would have been criticized, ridiculed & torn apart by the resident Azine elitists (u know who u are) in about the first 2 minutes of it's existence. Yet this guy is getting the benefit of the doubt because his first sentence was "Me and a couple of my engineering buddies".
Gotta love it.
This thread would have been criticized, ridiculed & torn apart by the resident Azine elitists (u know who u are) in about the first 2 minutes of it's existence. Yet this guy is getting the benefit of the doubt because his first sentence was "Me and a couple of my engineering buddies".
Gotta love it.
