Kennedy

iTrader: (2)

This monster intercooler hasn't proven to do anything... Cooler air helps for reasons you clearly understand, but only when the cooling method is implemented effeciently. Big honking intercoolers with long piping runs are for looks, and almost always hort performance.

I could have swore I read a discussion here where Accuratein finally had the piping work done, then had a dyno pull showing 260 HP WITH SC and INTERCOOLER... There were numerous posts expressing concern for such a low number, blaming motor milage and whatnot. He said he was running pig rich... Think that big ol intercooler might be introducing some intake restriction and starving the engine fior air? I believe he said the intake manifold as found to be leaking, but never followed up...

Where did those posts go?

I'll stand by my post. A pretty, and mean looking, performance degrading mod...

I hate cars

You just said it had an air leak. That causes a rich condition and power loss so you can't compare numbers. I too would like to see those posts.

Judging from the pictures, the intercooler used on the TL is far from oversized. I would feel more comfortable in that situation with the end tanks on top and bottom, the inlet and outlet on the same side (eliminating 2' of plumbing), and the flow to be vertical, not horizontal. This would give roughly the same cooling and much more flow.

I said an intercooler will give more power in a properly set up situation. Looking at the style of intercooler and not just the overall size, it's far from optimum. It has 10 tubes to pass the air through for approx 2'. My old intercooler that took me deep into the 11s was roughly the same size but since the tubes went vertical, it had over 40 tubes to pass through and the end tanks were much larger. The small end tanks, too few tubes, and the 90 degree turn on the passenger side don't help things.

I still have faith that at the same boost level the car will make more power in this configuration. If it doesn't I will ship my intercooler of roughly the same size to let them try it if they want it. Gains of 20% are not out of the question with a properly set up intercooler.

swift22

^^ bingo

cooler air depending on his engine managment would more than likely cause a rich condition because he had previously tuned it(or the ECU learned) for a higher intake temperature.

The intercooler should add power. If it doesnt then we DO have a problem.

So yes what is the news?

ACCURATEin

-acura battery was removed from under the blower.
- 15lb braille battery is powering the car from the trunk.
- fixed the boost leak coming from the loose endplates on the intake manifold.
- custom piping still has yet to be completed.

Put down 255whp running rich on a dynojet, probably due to the boost leak we discovered.

So in essence i'm still driving around with my gigantic :ghey: front mount

ACCURATEin

Basically what happened at the shop last friday were two things:

1) my friend with the twin turbo Z decided he was going to make a clusterfuck in the shop by shoving his Z into the picture claiming he's lost 60hp and needs it fixed

and 2) the install guy decided his labor estimates were low and the operation was going to be a lot lengthier than he had originally thought, so i told him to just focus on getting the battery out which is the main thing that needed to happen.


From what i can tell there is a whole hell of a lot of room to work with, and the pipe placement can work. It's just a matter of deciding the best route to send each pipe.

I hate cars

What were your hp/torque numbers before the intercooler and what was your boost before and after the install?

ACCURATEin

Well she made 255whp with a boost leak, and the intercooler is still nonfunctional.

I hate cars

My mistake. I thought the 255 was with the intercooler.

06WDP-TL

are you kidding me? cooler air results in a denser o2 charge, meaning leaner mixture.

and no, the tiny 2.25" piping on the greddy fmic will not be efficient. i dont care how much boost you are running, boost is a measure of restriction. If there were a bit more aggressive intake cams for the TL, the motor would see even less boost due to overlap yet still make more power. Throwing a FMIC will further increase restriction. Cooler air, maybe, but not that much of significant difference as 5-9psi on a roots blower is still not too hot to really affect performance by a large margin. Been tested time and time again by RSX roots s/c setups. And u're telling me the IAT is 300*?? since when did u get IAT readings to prove that?

trying to cool using a FMIC method is pure waste of time and money. You're better off using a small shot of dry nitrous or water/methanol injection. You'll make way more power with either of those. Tuning can be done via emanage ultimate, which allows more extensive tuning than the ACM.

Believe me, dont count on Hondata to release the reflash anytime. Its pretty much impossible at this point to get it unless u can drive your car to Hondata to hook it up to their machine.

JamminTL

Here is some info from another local site I belong to that basically is nothing but high HP cars....the guy posting this has extensive knowledge of intercoolers/turbos/superchargers and runs a low 9 second ford lightning drag car....

Have you looked into an air to water setup? The cores are smaller and you wouldn't have all the crazy plumbing that a front mount needs. I know Vortec makes some smaller cores, we put on a local guys SVT Focus and I guess it works ok, haven't seen any iat logs. If its all sized properly it will work pretty well for you and you can alway ice the water down if you need a little more.

Benny. I think it works like the super coupes did, or at least the modded ones. Some of those have a A2A sitting on top of the hood. (Benny is another guy on there he was talking to)
_________________

So nobody makes a sandwich style cooler for your car like the Buick 3.8 guys use? There's a guy that makes them for the Buick resellers. Innovative Tool is his company name.


There is two posts.....thought I would share the info as we were bantering around about your build out.

I hate cars

Roots blowers compared to other blowers like centrifugal and turbos are horribly inefficient in the form of a hot intake charge. So you know the 2.25" pipe is inefficient? It's funny how I went 11.60s on it for a few years. The intercooler in question may be on the small side. We'll have to wait and see. Again, for the 100th time in this thread, a properly sized intercooler doesn't offer any more restriction than a straight piece of pipe.

ACCURATEin

haha this project should be on the myth busters show!!

..i've got about 4 days to do nothing coming up around christmas, so more than likely i'll pull the bumper off and make some slices and dices with the pipes, few couplers here and there, couple non-wanted 90 degree bends, little gold foil, ...etc.

Kennedy

iTrader: (2)

Many here have found chemical (methanol) boost cooling to be very effective, but those that have sprayed the intake manifold have found that it may cause your catilytic converters to corrode.

06WDP-TL

on the contrary, the greddy FMIC is good enough to support over 400+whp. the piping however, is another story. longer, unnecessary plumbing isnt going to do swat. 2.25 piping on your drag car? you are comparing apples to oranges, sir. Why not run 2" exhaust piping but a huge 3" outlet at the end? I mean its big on one end at least right?? THis FMIC is purely being used to cover the big, ugly gapping hole in the front bumper.

You guys should really check out the RSX guys who use the same roots blower. They run up to 11psi without any form of cooling, reliably. (given a proper engine management system of course) High IAT's yes, but not high enough to damage anything if tuned correctly, and still making power. Better yet, someone should check out the RL cams, induce overlap, make more power. Of course, you should be doing it with Hondata. Dont forget the other options of nitrous and water/meth as i've said earlier. But again, u do not need to worry about cooling the charge until you're boosting past 9psi.

Roots blowers do NOT give a hotter charge than any turbo, esp with roots under 9psi. You're telling me that a turbo powered by exhaust gases with 1000+deg EGT's is going to give a cooler intake charge than a Roots blower powered by a pulley system? I clearly see your logic now. 300deg IAT's

I've experimented with water-to-air cooling on my bro's scion tC, centrifugal blown. Did not make any more HP, and charge temps did not change by much, even with ice in the water tank. Someone else did a air-to-air setup, lost power and boost by 2psi. I've also messed with several RSX-S's that were Comptech blown. One 11psi no cooling, next 12psi + 35 dry shot, and a water/meth injected 11psi. On turbo setups, however, air-to-air > water-to-air for the street application.

Good thing my next project for my Saleen is a twin-screw, most efficient blower there is. I heard is supposedly making a twin-screw setup for a lot of Honda/Acura's. Not sure if they have any plans for the TL/TSX though.

Some reading in Corky Bell's book titled "SUpercharge!" helps a lot.

06WDP-TL

actually, methanol acts as high octane or race gas (rating of 110 or so). water is responsible for the cooling the charge, high heat of vaporization. methanol reduces chance of knock, and allows ignition timing advance for more power.

I hate cars

Don't need to do any reading but thanks for pointing out a book that's a couple decades old. There's so much wrong with what you wrote, I don't feel like getting into it now. I lost interest by the first paragraph because it became clear you're just another internet "expert" in the forced induction field.

I hate cars

Completely wrong. Again, don't state things as fact when in reality they're your opinion.

JamminTL

I understand your post....just not its relevence to the IC setup we are discussing here. I said nothing about NOS or Methanol. Myself...I plan on going NOS. As for the cats...who cares....dumping them at that point anyway.

I hate cars

Ok, I've had a cup of coffee so I'm feeling better now.

Methanol has an octane rating of 130, not 110.

Let me guess, you read that water has a higher "heat of vaporization" as you put it. This is great on paper but not in the real world.

In the real world the water usually has 1-2 feet to evaporate from the injection point to the motor and cool the air. Not happening in the less than half second it takes for it to travel to it's destination. It evaporates on the power stroke in the combustion chamber, there is very little vaporization and cooling of the charge air with water. I have verified this with a charge temp guage in the car. It can lower the combustion temps and help reduce detonation. Only one problem with that..... Water doesn't burn. So, to take full advantage of the water, you must turn the boost up and bump the timing or you lose power. You can realize small gains in power with water alone.

Methanol on the other had works great in automobiles. It flashes nearly instantly. I've seen charge air go from 120+ degrees to less than 60 degrees when the methanol hit. On top of that it supplies a little additional octane and fuel. While it doesn't contain the same btu output as gasoline, it does burn unlike water.

While I can typically run a couple extra psi or two with water (which I quit using 7 years ago), I can bump the boost from 14 to 23psi with methanol. I started with water, ran a mix of rubbing alcohol and water, straight alcohol, and then methanol. There is no comparison whether it's power output or charge air temp.

06WDP-TL

wow, i really dont know where u are pulling shit out of.....your mouth?

i'm sorry, no, i did not read this info, but actually i did it myself. I'm running Snow's water/meth injection setup (49meth/51water mix) on my RSX turbo setup, boosting 22psi. Yes, like you said it, you wont see an increase in power without timing advance, which is exactly what i said. yes, water doesnt burn, which is exactly why its in there for: RETARDING DETONATION. It'll need more timing. And no, i'm not talking about running straight water or meth alone, and untuned at that.

My personal tests measured intake air temps post-injection, inside the intake manifold. Through the use of 2 OEM IAT sensors, 225ml nozzle, pre-injection and post-injection, at 20psi. Results clearly show a decrease in temps of 15-20degs on the dyno (no cooling via fmic due to immobile car). All done via Hondata Kpro.

Methanol alone is not safe for your regular street car. If your vacuum lines or anything that sees manifold pressure is not methanol-resistant (ie. supercharger blade/fins/etc), you will experience premature wear and tear. Hell, having a tank of even 70% methanol in the car is a huge fire hazard. As you even said it.

So when running higher boost levels, instead of dumping/richening fuel to cool combustion and retard timing, you can use the water/meth as fuel instead and take out fuel. (i Increase timing until knock threshold, notch it down 2degrees for safe measure. Not the exact way to do it but i'm sure u know the idea.

Same goes for nitrous, tuning is needed to insure good results.

Now we are definitely way off topic, you still have yet to explain to me the reasoning using a FMIC on this particular setup. Cooler charge at what cost? Would this be something you would recommend to the rest of the S/C'd TL's?

JamminTL

Come on guys....we are all car enthusiasts here....cant we just get along for one common goal? When you find a differing opinion to your own...there is no need to be "selling" others one way or another.....just state your opinion...back it up with facts or real world experience...and move on. If somebody doesnt believe you or agree...thats ok. Look at their opinion as just that....opinion. And you know what they say about that! My point...lets just be cool to each other here and try to get along! We are all after the same goal more or less!!

Kennedy

iTrader: (2)

True... I should not have been in such a hurry to post. It's a two part process when you spray, I get that.

The point was that folks 'round here have tried meth injection as an alternative to jamminTL's suggested air water setup, but it seemed to be met with corrded cats.

Glad you referenced Corky Bell. I was digging through old post on tdiclub.com, LOTS of good discussion on "right sizing" the intercooler there, as those turbo diesel nerds are always trying to pull more torque out of those 1.9L engines.

I hate cars

I've been where you are now. I still have the 51/49 bottles and even the rare 91/9 bottles from the old days. It works great but straight methanol works better. You're talking a charge air decrease of 15-20 degrees while I've seen >60 degrees with methanol.

Cooling on your dyno run is still helped by the intercooler. Even if there is no airflow over it which I'm sure there is, the intercooler becomes a heat-sink.

Methanol is completely safe for a street car or at least it has been for 7 years now on mine. Remember, we're not running the car on meth, it come on only under boost. Mine is set to come on at 5psi and ramp up from there. My car never sees boost during a normal drive. The car sees methanol for a maximum of 10 seconds at a time and it accounts for <20% of the total fuel. In 7 years I have never seen it hurt a vacuum line or the aluminum heads or intake.

Again, it seems like you're posting things that you've read or heard. I have tried what you are doing now and I have evolved and moved on since then. You act like you're breaking new ground and in reality you're behind the times.

As for the comment on supercharger wear, who is retarded enough to inject pre-blower? If you do that, you deserve anything that happens to you.

A mix of water/alky will eventually choke the motor down when you use it as a fuel where methanol won't.

And last, why do I suggest the use of the intercooler on the TL? Probably to cool the charge air. While methanol is great, the intercooler is a one time expense and there is nothing to break or screw up like the meth injection.

I hate cars

I agree, but it's bad for everyone when someone posts things as facts when in reality they're not. If I'm not sure on something I make it clear that it's an opinion or a guess.

There are so many things wrong with this guy's posts that are very basic. From saying a roots blower has anywhere near the efficiency of a turbo to water cools the charge air better than methanol.

06WDP-TL

i'm getting this vibe from you that "hey, i'm older, i know more."

Again, what you are saying is a bit out of context. I'm am only suggesting a MIX of water and methanol, neither one alone. Running straight water has its benefits on certain applications and straight methanol on others. Proven time and time again from results of Evo/Sti setups. Some like water only, some like both, some like methanol, its all in the tune. In no way am i going to recommend running straight methanol to anyone, regardless of its power gains in a street car. You're right, some info, i've read about. But a lot of my experience came first hand with f/i setups on the K-series and ecu management. Anywhere from 250-700whp setups, you name it, i'll get you there. However, dont mistaken me for a run-of-the-mill youngster who loves yapping his gums and playing relay information. (not the first time its happened here)

Never did i say that a roots will have the same efficiency with water. You are just putting words in my mouth. You are the one stating 300deg IATs from Roots blower and a roots blower gives a hotter intake charge than a turbo, of the other things.

You should also check your basic facts, sir.

I hate cars

It's not that I'm older, it's that I've already gotten past the afraid to run straight methanol stage that you're stuck in. I don't let others theories stop me from doing my own research.

A turbo or centrifugal blower is far more efficient than a roots blower. For a given volume and boost pressure a roots blower will deliver a hotter charge than the other two. I don't know how else to say it. Anyone who even pretends to know forced induction knows this. You're the one stuck thinking the turbo heats the air more since it's exhaust driven and you couldn't be more wrong. This is where I completely lose interest in the conversation because you don't get even the most basic concepts.

The 300 degree figure was said sarcastically if you didn't get it. The TL crowd doesn't seem to like to gather data like other crowds. Still, I would guarantee that the oultet of the blower is close to 100 degrees above ambient.

I will recommend running straight methanol in a street car because I have done it successfully for years. You recommend against it based on hearsay.

CCColtsicehockey

holy shit talk about thread hijack for a disagreement.

johnr5

I know.. I almost lost interest in the thread until I saw this comment.

swift22

*edit

A front mount IC if functioning correctly and with proper design WILL improve numbers. So what is the argument?

Ps-
I am also 22 but i have actual hands on experience to prove things that I say, not what i heard or saw on a buddies car..

swift22

Your correct in my understanding also. I will just keep it at that

stillhere153

iTrader: (1)

everything in this post is hearsay... not admissible court lol

still waiting on accuratein pluggin this badboy up and going for a dyno run

LXiFLYBY

Quoted for truth, these are pretty basic concepts.
And as for the FMIC on the supercharger, hopefully lowered IAT's should allow a better knock limit and more power on this setup, and 2.25" charge piping will flow more than enough power youll make on low boost for sure, and i doubt there will be any considerable lag to the setup.

Also has anybody tried going to colder plugs when going FI? It might help prevent detonation...

Kennedy

iTrader: (2)

Comptech provides colder NGK's with the Supercharger kit...

Atrain

06WDP-TL,


This is just not so. A twin screw blower has an efficiency range like any compressor. The Lysholm and AutoRotor superchargers typically has an internal compression ratio of 1.35.

Twin screw designs by nature produce the hottest discharge temperatures at low boost and rpm levels. This is due to their internal compression of the air charge between the augers and screws. This means that the blower is compressing air even when it does not need to.

Squeezing and compressing the air and super heating it. Adiabatic efficiency at 2 psi is 30%. At 4-psi it is in the 40's. Peak adiabatic efficiency is 65% at 15-16 psi.

By comparison the Eaton M62 and Eaton M90 hybrid roots superchargers have a peak adiabatic efficiency of 65% at 4 psi. Most stock street cars cannot handle lots of boost since the engines aren't set-up for it. This makes the Eaton an easy choice plus the longevity of the Eaton is the best out there.

When used properly (read: not overspun) they go 100,000 miles without even checking their oil. Just look at all the GM and Ford guys running them. I have 50k on my M90 with 10-psi of boost. This is not to say they don't have problems from time to time, it's just when you look at OEM blowers that Ford and GM use...I don't see any Vortech or Paxtons under the hood.

Eaton even offers a new TVS twin screw supercharger for racing applications. This blower has been in the works for years and was tested on cars like the Terminator Cobra.

If you decide you want to run 15 psi or more, then a twin screw supercharger is the best choice if you want a P/D blower. If you think a twin screw is the most efficienct blower out there, you are wrong.

A-Train

ACCURATEin

Good input everyone...the more the merrier!

As for the custom fabbing and slicing and dicing... its coming along very slow, or without a quickness. However i did tinker with the pipes yesterday and modified the intake pipe into a short ram inside the engine bay. I suppose it was neccessary to make it a short ram in order to achieve the design i'm going for.

Here are a few pics to see what's been cooking...

stillhere153

iTrader: (1)

gotta love the thermal gold foil hhehehe

cant wait to see it finished

teinCL

she's comin along my son...good work. haha. u got that NASA sponsor yet?

Snookynibbles

Mr. “I Hate Cars”…gotta set something straight here…as you posted, “I agree, but it's bad for everyone when someone posts things as facts when in reality they're not…”

On-topic with the discussion of intercoolers & with your chiding in mind, let’s go back to your bravado, “… for the 100th time in this thread, a properly sized intercooler doesn't offer any more restriction than a straight piece of pipe.”

My challenge is to take your statement to any college physics prof, & see where it ends up. Here’s the skinny…

Any time you run a compressed gas through a pipe, you will heat the gas, plain & simple…this due to friction…it’s axiomatic. Every time a gas is forced to negotiate a bend in a pipe, it heats up. This is because of an increase in molecular collisions as the gas is channeled en-mass to change its direct of flow. The gas will also decelerate & compress slightly as it negotiates these bends…this equates to a heating (molecular acceleration). Understand that there doesn’t have to be an actual constriction in diameter to be an 'effectual constriction' in flow.

The fact is that an intercooler is a gimmick that works because by its design, it overcomes the inherent inefficiency I just described…the friction and heat generation from forcing a compressed gas to make repeated directional changes in a constricted environment.

If we take your claim that pipe bends (from an IC) don’t introduce any more restriction than a straight pipe to of necessity imply equal adiabatic efficiency, then your claim is false. True, a mandrel-bent pipe of any given diameter will not introduce any (more) restriction due to a reduction in cross-sectional area. However, it will lose efficiency (viz., measured by an increase in temperature) due to the reasons I mentioned earlier. Yet, the IC remains a viable gimmick because its inherent inefficiencies are overcome by the fact that a substantial cooling takes place via the convection of heat to the surrounding environment…from the device’s cooling fins surface area…there’s a net cooling effect upon the gas/airflow…it’s a type of radiator.

Have a Happy & Safe New Year one & all from Riverside, CA, & from probably the oldest guy who now’s got the Greddy Evo2 Exhaust on his TL! (at 53, I refuse to grow up!)

I hate cars

I'm not sure if you're trying to poke at me or if you're serious....

You took my quote that an intercooler shouldn't offer more restriction than a straight piece of pipe completely out of context and somehow came to the conflusion that I think a curved piece of pipe flows as well as a straight one. Good try...

If it makes you feel smart, in theory every curve, every change of direction, and every imperfection in the pipe will make extra heat. In the real world will it make any measurable changes in temp? Assuming you don't (and this is why I said properly sized, setup, whatever...) have a bunch of 1" 90 degree bends, no it won't make a noticable difference. I doubt you could measure it. On the flip side, the pipe could be acting as it's own intercooler since the air inside is most likely hotter than the air outside. I don't particularly like the 180 degree bend on the intercooler in the pics. I would find a way around that. The theory is great but as long as the diameter of the pipe is sufficient you will not see a temp rise.

Thanks for explaining how an intercooler works. Maybe I can put everything I've learned from this thread into use in real life... wait, I already have.

Meek32v6

iTrader: (7)

Whats the diameter on your piping?
it's looks fairly large for your setup