This might belong in the fix sub-forum but I am hoping Matt (IHC) will see this and respond.

I'm getting 270psi on all except for #5 (front/center) which is 140psi.

All seem to hold pressure although I don't know how long I am supposed to leave it connected to see if the pressure drops.

I put a little oil in the cylinder and tried again, no difference.

Thoughts?

 

I just realized that there is a valve in the compression tester so my statement about holding pressure is not accurate.

I'll check that tomorrow

 

sub'd to read more

 

Tested cold....will try again after warming up.....

 

Retested at temperature with no difference.

Also tried that cylinder wet and again no difference.

Time to build a leak down tester to see if I have a leaky valve.

 

exactly what I was going to suggest next

 

#5 is the cylinder from hell for our cars it seems.

 

When you're doing the test, how do you keep the throttle body open?

Are you moving it manually with your fingers and propping it open?

Or are you removing the intake manifold top cover?

When did you last adjust your valves? Isn't the No. 5 cylinder the one that ejects the most spark plugs?

 

I'm using a spring clamp to hold it open after manually opening the butterfly. I also disconnected the connector to the drive motor.

It's been a while since I did a valve job and if I hear air going into the exhaust, I'll check that next.

I am doing it myself so I can't watch how it's pumping with each stroke, but the others are consistently about 270psi.

 

You can make a push-button jumper for the starter or purchase one, they are inexpensive. This will allow you to do it all from the engine bay.

Hopefully the exhaust valves on that cylinder are only tight and there is no valve damage. Please keep us updated.

I just looked at the TL FSM and it lists 135psi as the standard with a max variation of 28psi. Are you running a stock block (11:1)?

 

check the exhaust valves. Get some thirty weight oil and Ball Bearings....Ball bearings are the future. And get that gook off these windows, that's just...gook....

-Fletch

 

Thanks

I am stock. I picked up a regulator, gauge and fittings so I'll give it a shot tomorrow.

Any suggestions on finding compression stroke TDC easily?

 

I had the timing belt covers off when I adjusted my valves; it was very easy to see the marks on the cam sprockets with them removed. Supposedly, it's not too hard to see the marks on front sprocket through the inspection hole; the rear one requires some sort of mirror.

 

I went ahead and took off the valve cover, aligned the marks on the cam pulley to #5 making sure it was pushing air out of that cylinder and all 4 rocker arms are free.

I know I am above the specs even on the low cylinder but it's bugging the hell out of me why.

I've got all the parts to build a leak down tester and just need to decide how I to build the restriction between the two gauges. Hope to have things buttoned up and back on the road this weekend!

 

That compression in 135 is from one only if I remember right

 

damn, I really wish I knew this much about engines.

 

Well....as I feared, looks like #5 is blowing by the rings. Seeing the smoke coming out of the oil fill was a tell tail sign but I confirmed it with the leak down test.

I'm getting roughly 50% loss, 20 in, 10 on the other side, 30/15, 40/20, 50/25.

Tried it on #6 and there is almost no difference and I didn't bother going beyond 40psi.

Also pumped air into a cylinder with the exhaust valves open just to see what it sounded like though my stethoscope and I don't hear anything on #5 going past the valves.

Now to decide.....can't really afford to go into rods, pistons, rings, bearings, studs at the moment.....Maybe just keep the boost very low and run it until it get's bad.

On the bright side, learned a lot in the process.

 

Buy a long block and swap it in and do low boost, then slowly build your current block

 

I have my low mileage RL motor that I had in the Accord still. I plan on freshening up the short block and selling it once I'm done. If you're interested and don't live too far away from Dallas you should consider it.

Sorry to hear about the motor. I knew that if I didn't start another build soon and get that RL motor out of there I'd have some issues too. Whatever it is you build or do next, make sure you put some quality rings in at least the top ring.

 

Thanks for the offer but I am in Vermont, way too far from TX.

My wife tells me to just get it fixed and done with.....not sure at this point but it's not my daily driver so I can take my time with it. I may just drive it without boost for the rest of the summer and tear it down this winter and get the forged rods and pistons.

 

Why did you do a compression test in the first place? Is the engine running poorly or just blow by from the filler?

 

I saw fumes coming out of the little filter on the rear cover and opened up the oil fill and saw it there as well.

 

I have the exact same issue, boost/vac gauge still shows a vacuum of 23, but lots of blow by. I don't drive the car enough to know if its lost power, but I'm swapping out the engine.

 

Yeah, car fan fine and after getting the FlashPro installed, my plugs looked great.

I'm guessing that because all of the tunes from Rodney were WAY rich, I must have washed down the walls and caused premature ring wear.

I saw you got Bert's motor. That should add some fun to your ride.

 

I am still running my ( stupid rich ) original tune and the mileage (18 mpg ) has kept me from driving it too much. Are you running a leaner tune with the Flash pro? I wouldn't be surprised if my issues are related to how rich the tune was as well.

 

Factory Honda pistons are notorious for cracking/breaking ring lands under heavy boost or detonation. Save for aftermarket dished forged pistons if you're serious about running some big boost. I've heard of many a3 and a8 pistons failing this way under boost. The only way to offset this is by running a healthy dose of methanol and to NOT tune the ECM for power when adding it. Better to tune the engine to a conservative tune and THEN activate the meth controller.

 

I am running meth on top of the tune, but need to up the jet. The only real detonation I have had was 3rd gear tire spin a few times on the freeway. My hope is this 9:1 engine will allow a lot more boost and timing without worry about knock.

 

You could also mill the dome off a factory piston very easily to obtain the desired CR you're after.

Definitely run the correct sized jet on that meth. Do you know the proper way to achieve full effects from a methanol system? What to look for in datalog I mean...

Knowing how to do it correctly will make the world of difference.

 

I don't know much about how to properly run meth, I am using it mostly to add octane and cooling. I didn't tune for it, just added it once I got past 5 psi to keep from having to pull as much timing. I have my jet located pretty far from the TB, with the hope that it would let the meth/water evaporate more fully before reaching the engine. Any tips you have on running it more effectively would be great. The tuner I am using didn't want to tune for meth to avoid problems if the kit failed or I ran out of meth.

 

Cruising is now running in the mid-14's like it's supposed to be and under boost I am hitting the low 11's and 10's.

I do have something being cut and I don't know if I am over the stock map sensors ability. Need to get some data logged.

Before I dove into the FP/ECU swap, I was dialing things closer just by reducing the required fuel value. That would have an affect on the whole range.

The thing is, I have stayed well under 10lbs, typically in the 7-8lb range. Nothing major as I knew my tune was less than optimal.

I am checking into my options now. I am going to get it back together, dial my boost to 4lbs or so and finish out the summer. The during the LONG winter up here, I am thinking pistons, rings, rods and head studs to start. Probably going to need another set of injectors and a fuel return setup. Then up the boost to something more substantial.

If you have any suggestions on off the shelf pistons, rings and rods that would keep my stock bore/stroke but lower my compression to the 9's, that would be great. This engine has low mileage (25K or so) so the bottom end and heads should be ok.

 

O it will..trust me lol

the highest i was running was 22-23lbs with meth. close to 600 at the wheels and only saw the knock light 2-3 times under partial throttle in the 2nd gear and that was with less boost. it was a small dose of meth, 350ml/min set to start spraying at 10% of max at 8psi and 100% at 15psi. never tuned for meth, just started spraying after the tune was done at 500whp. never had any knock at the 500 level even without meth.

that motor will outlast the trans so dont worry about it. timing was 17-19 degrees under full throttle all the way to redline.

oh yea, feel confident knowing that you can run those rpms all the way 8k if need be. of course you'll have to see where the power falls off on the dyno

im sure bruce told you have the leaky valve stem seals right? youll need to replace those. they are kms seals in there and i would definitely go with oem seals if i was doing it again.

the valve train can be loud, especially on cold days so dont think anything is wrong with it. adjusted the valves 3-4 times while on the phone with kms to ensure everything was correct.

i have my tune files floating around so if you need any info let me know. or you could just load my last tune in there, make about 600whp and have a blast lol

have a spare tranny laying around also

 

Bruce didn't know much about the engine other than that it was running after the accident. I will change out the seals before it goes in. Thanks for the info on the seals and valve train. I was going back thru the Turbo thread to see what you ran for heads, type-s or base and what you did with the valve train. Did you replace the valves when you did the valve train? Did you port the heads?

The clutch I was planing to buy is no longer going to cut it with the new power goal. Did you like the twin disk clutch? I stayed away from it because I thought the engagement would be too harsh and I didn't need a clutch at the time.


That 600 WHP tune would be awesome, maybe I can send you a memory stick and you can throw on whatever tunes you have. Thanks again for the info.

 

Let me first start by saying that this does not allow you to tune for the meth, but rather ensure that the meth injection is doing what its supposed to be doing and the greatest degree. Meth injection is most easily optimized by monitoring four things during datalog: AFR, IAT, knock sensor (or counts) and EGT's. The last one is not absolutely critical but allows the user to "double confirm" that the system is doing its best in deterring detonation.

First, start off my a "dry" run where no meth is being sprayed into the engine and also, do the run on a heat soaked engine so that you get consistent/accurate results each time. Using datalog, record the session, analyze the data and take note of their readings. Now using the manufacturers recommended jet size, make another run and observe the same sensors and their data. It may look something like the following example (simplified for obvious reasons):

AFR's
Before meth- 12:1
After meth- 11:1

IAT
Before meth- 100*
After meth- 90*

Knock counts
Before meth- 5
After meth- 5

EGT's
Before meth- 475*
After meth- 550*

If you notice, the after meth results show that the matters are getting worse by adding the meth but others readings may be deceiving such as the knock counts and the IAT's. Think of it like this and it all begins to make more sense. This is where SO MANY people go very wrong when adding meth injection btw...

Methanol is a fuel (not nearly as volatile as gasoline and ignited much slower) but when mixed with water, has a drastic cooling effect that creates oxygen density (think nitrous) and then leans the mixture out. This is why the AFR thinned out. And all the other reading begin to fall into place once you realize that fact. Most people see these results and assume that the methanol isn't doing a good enough job OR since the IAT's are cooler, that has to be a good thing. Some add more by increasing jet size others become content with less aggressive/dangerous sensor readings.

The objective at this point also becomes apparent, to adjust the methanol injection volume to a degree at which gives you the best readings WITHOUT MAKING ANY ADJUSTMENTS WITH THE TUNE. <----That is key. Sometimes it becomes necessary to literally change and manipulate the actual methanol:water ratio to get the results or readings you are happy with.

Does this all make sense so far?

 

I think so, you are saying the purpose of the meth is to cool the charge air and richer the AFR's, but the water content of the meth/water mix is leading to a leaner condition. The example sensor readings from your post for AFR's show the meth richening the mixture from 12 to 11 AFR, which sounds right. You are also saying that the tune should be pretty knock free before adding meth as a safe guard.

I have only looked at the IAT readings before and after getting the meth system to spray, to confirm it was cooling the charge. I am running the AEM system and set my controller to start spay at 3 psi and full spay at 9 psi, so I am not activating the system very often and when I do it's rarely spraying at more than 50%. So I am not pushing much thru the system and need to look into how low of a start spray psi I can set the controller for, just to get readings from my sensors. I think that 7-9 psi is as low as the the controller can be set to go 100% spray.

I have two ways of data logging, my Dash Dyno ( used mostly as a to watch IAT's from the stock sensor and timing ) or the internal Ms3 data log function. ( something I have never played with). My other issue is that the Ms3 is connected to my stock o2 sensor, where my AFR gauge is connected to its own o2 farther down stream. I am not sure why it was set up this way, but I imagine the gauge sensor is better suited to run the Ms3.

 

That's impossible. The MS3 does not have the circuitry to convert the output of a sensor and control the heaters. That's why you pay so much for the 'controller'. You must be running without the W/B feedback. Rodney seemed to endorse that in the event that you had a W/B failure.

 

This is something the shop told me, so I am likely wrong. I sure hope the Ms3 is wired to my WB, either way it will be this time around.