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Okay, now we're up to two cars. @Saving4aTL, thinking you need to take off your rose colored glasses.
And see the world from a point of view of an unoptomistic, cup mostly empty point of view?
Like Spiter mentioned, our underrated vehicles have a low volume performance demand. So we are looking for a solution. Don’t throw wrenches into our ambition.
Ive got another pair of rose colored glasses you could borrow.
And see the world from a point of view of an unoptomistic, cup mostly empty point of view?
Like Spiter mentioned, our underrated vehicles have a low volume performance demand. So we are looking for a solution. Don’t throw wrenches into our ambition.
Ive got another pair of rose colored glasses you could borrow.
I’m eternally optimistic that those front 6/rear 4 calipers with 12.2” rotor rear and 14” rotor front will be on the car by next season.
Those front calis’ are gonna look like the fist of the North Star(‘cause knuckles).
Only $3500 shipped to have have Wilwood on your side.
Here’s wishing Wilwood front/rear are someday available in Heeltoe’s corner.
Heeltoe ftmfw!
Heeltoe has them on the site. call and ask Marcus if he can arrange something with Fastbrakes to get them at a lower price. on fast brakes website, I did the 13.6-inch fronts and 12.2-inch rears and they came out to 3.1K in the cart. Hoping this custom one works out but if not, then fast brakes isnt a bad option. the fronts are the wilwood superlite 6 (9.5inches long) and the rears are the powerlite (6.97inches long). There are videos on youtube with people installing them.
Of course! I'm actually getting my brackets made next month. My fabricator is from another city (6 hour drive) and I'm not free until August to meet him.
I've done quite a bit of research and I've narrowed down the calipers and rotors to use. I purchased the calipers (they're being held for me in Toronto--same city as my fabricator) and I'm deciding between EBC or Racing Brake 2pc rotors. The cost of RB 2pc rotors is pretty crazy even after you factor in rotor-rings (it would still cost more than buying a pair of EBC rotors).
My rears will use a 2-piston rear Brembo caliber with a 320mm rotor (just 10mm bigger than stock TL-S brembos). I MIGHT have a bracket made for 4-piston Brembos for 5ATs that would use a 328mm front rotor. I'll be upgrading front and rear to SS lines and if all goes well (and if there's enough interest) then I may reproduce the brackets and sell.
Will you be changing the fronts aswell to not have a 50/50(ish) bias in front/rear?
6MT/TL-S no. I don’t see a point.
5ATs I can make an adapter to go to a 328mm front rotor (18mm over stock Brembos and 28mm over non-brembos). I’ll need a 5AT TL for testing though.
to my understanding the brake bias is largely affected by the piston sizes of the calipers more-so than rotor/pad sweep. (Although the latter should play some role too).
i can instead go with a 280-290 rear rotor (ever so slightly bigger than stock if I am remembering all the numbers correctly) but... eh duck it. I’d rather keep it simple IF I make the front brackets so whoever can just order front/rear for one car.
also from my 2 weeks of research a little extra rear bias is welcome. I didn’t calculate the math but my speculation is that the overall bias shouldn’t be too largely affected with the 2 Piston rear and larger rotor (since most of it is controlled through EBD). I’m going to assume slight increases in rear bias and overall firmer pedal feel.
5ATs I can make an adapter to go to a 328mm front rotor (18mm over stock Brembos and 28mm over non-brembos). I’ll need a 5AT TL for testing though.
to my understanding the brake bias is largely affected by the piston sizes of the calipers more-so than rotor/pad sweep. (Although the latter should play some role too).
i can instead go with a 280-290 rear rotor (ever so slightly bigger than stock if I am remembering all the numbers correctly) but... eh duck it. I’d rather keep it simple IF I make the front brackets so whoever can just order front/rear for one car.
also from my 2 weeks of research a little extra rear bias is welcome. I didn’t calculate the math but my speculation is that the overall bias shouldn’t be too largely affected with the 2 Piston rear and larger rotor (since most of it is controlled through EBD). I’m going to assume slight increases in rear bias and overall firmer pedal feel.
That's awesome man. Looking forward to what you have in store. If you don't mind me asking, which rear caliper are you going to use? The closest one I found that could possibly work without crazy amount of work Is the 07 wrx ones and the older Evo x ones. Also, the rear rotors are custom made? The main issue with the rears is getting a rotor that also works with the parking brake
That's awesome man. Looking forward to what you have in store. If you don't mind me asking, which rear caliper are you going to use? The closest one I found that could possibly work without crazy amount of work Is the 07 wrx ones and the older Evo x ones. Also, the rear rotors are custom made? The main issue with the rears is getting a rotor that also works with the parking brake
Any of them would work actually because you’re going to need new brackets made. You’d be very lucky to find one that bolts up to our existing mounts and have enough room for a vented rotor.
i don’t want to share specifics just yet as 1) this isn’t my thread 2) I want to get things made first so I can verify all the information I’ve been researching
i will say that the rotors will not be custom made and thus everything should be simplified.
i will be making my own thread at the end of this month or start of next month when I drop off my car for r&d and test fitting of brackets.
I drive hard and brake late. I had a base A/T before this dog fighting on the highway one sunny mexican afternoon and experienced some serious brake fade and it didnt feel good. Got rid of that one and got this current one and wanted to tinker with the brakes and after months of reading and measuring different mounting points of different cars with brembo packages that came through my job I finally came across the genesis that measurements matched that of the base A/T. So I found a set for stupid cheap. like $290 or something like that and all i had to do was figure out a rotor. Another point is obviously the bling factor however my calipers are beat up so that part is kinda up in the air although other base TL owners break their necks walking up to my busted car with these brakes while walking away from their much nicer looking TL
@Saving4aTL Now that im home I can be a lil more helpful with detail. The 350z Rotors are 324mm OD by 30mm thick while the TLS is somewhere around 310mm OD by 25mm thick. Not an astronomical size increase but bigger non-the-less especially for a Base A/T. The caliper is physically bigger than the TLS like stated before but still fits in the 17" rim. TLS has 4 pistons with 2 different sizes while the Genesis has 4 piston all the same size. Never got to compare pads between the 2 but. But the end result is Im happy and i think its much less involved than swapping knuckles.
Wow, this thread has some insane contributions, especially from fullboost833! It's awesome seeing this.
Anyways, I figured I'd be the bearer of bad news. Progress on the caliper brackets has been halted ever since my TL kicked the bucket late last year. It was my daily driver for awhile, and after modifying it to a certain extent, I just couldn't daily it anymore. Seeing as how I didn't have the garage space at the time, I went and traded it in for a Fiesta ST. I am extremely sorry for all of this. However, Eximious Custom Parts still has the spindles in CAD. If we can get someone willing to pay $850 for the bracket development and send them the Hyundai/Kia fromt and rear Brembo brakes, they'll be available to everyone at a fraction of the cost.
If no one wants to step up, I will continue this endeavor late 2020 - early 2021 when I buy a salvage-title 6MT TL as a dedicated project car since I have the space now that I moved on a 40-acre parcel in Missouri. The Hyundai/Kia Brembos are clearly the way to go with this in terms of stopping-power and maximizing tire height for that meaty setup. I will also continue development of 95A transmission mounts that I was posting on Facebook Marketplace and custom 17x9 forged wheels that were in the works with CCW around that time, as well.
My 2 piston rear is still up and running.
Had some time off with no progress and finally getting work done with my fabricator. His engineering skills seem to be lacking just a tad so we had a lot of back and forth for him to do things how I want. I have a 4 piston RL caliper at home I can use to make a bracket for as well.
I'm currently in talks with another fabricator (he's in automation and shoved massive 6piston brakes on his VW). I'll just have to design the CAD myself.
@Saving4aTL Now that im home I can be a lil more helpful with detail. The 350z Rotors are 324mm OD by 30mm thick while the TLS is somewhere around 310mm OD by 25mm thick. Not an astronomical size increase but bigger non-the-less especially for a Base A/T. The caliper is physically bigger than the TLS like stated before but still fits in the 17" rim. TLS has 4 pistons with 2 different sizes while the Genesis has 4 piston all the same size. Never got to compare pads between the 2 but. But the end result is Im happy and i think its much less involved than swapping knuckles.
These calipers were bolt on to the factory auto knuckles? Which if I remember right is a different bolt pattern than the M/T knuckles.
I've still got a set of auto knuckles sitting around, sounds weird to go downgrade in knuckle to upgrade the rotor, whatever works! Did you need to do any modifications to get them to mount to the hubs?
These calipers were bolt on to the factory auto knuckles? Which if I remember right is a different bolt pattern than the M/T knuckles.
I've still got a set of auto knuckles sitting around, sounds weird to go downgrade in knuckle to upgrade the rotor, whatever works! Did you need to do any modifications to get them to mount to the hubs?
There's at least 3 other guys that have done the Genesis calipers. From what I recall it was a direct bolt on to the stock knuckles.
ALL the bolt patterns are the same across 3Gs... don't know where you got that from that A/T and M/T are different. (almost the entire Honda/Acura line-up uses the same bolt pattern with a few exceptions such as the 4G TL, whatever year RL and RLX, and a select few others that I want to name but am not 100% on--like ZDX/NSX) Do keep in mind that just increasing rotor size won't be where all the benefits are (there are some, of course). The benefit of running a larger rotor is usually also running a bigger pad (and bigger calipers) which all equate to a larger braking-surface-area.
If you already have the stock Brembos on your car then going to 350z rotors with genesis calipers might not give that big of an improvement. You're better off getting 2 piece rotors, SS lines, better brake fluid and finding a way to get vented rear rotors.
There's at least 3 other guys that have done the Genesis calipers. From what I recall it was a direct bolt on to the stock knuckles.
ALL the bolt patterns are the same across 3Gs... don't know where you got that from that A/T and M/T are different. (almost the entire Honda/Acura line-up uses the same bolt pattern with a few exceptions such as the 4G TL, whatever year RL and RLX, and a select few others that I want to name but am not 100% on--like ZDX/NSX) Do keep in mind that just increasing rotor size won't be where all the benefits are (there are some, of course). The benefit of running a larger rotor is usually also running a bigger pad (and bigger calipers) which all equate to a larger braking-surface-area.
If you already have the stock Brembos on your car then going to 350z rotors with genesis calipers might not give that big of an improvement. You're better off getting 2 piece rotors, SS lines, better brake fluid and finding a way to get vented rear rotors.
So just so we are clear here, the base TL without a manual transmission uses 51210-SEP-A11 and 51215-SEP-A11 knuckles (Right/Left), the manual transmission cars and Type-S cars with the Brembo brakes use 51210-SEP-A01 and 51215-SEP-A01 knuckles (Right/Left); there is no question they are different knuckles. Are you saying both knuckles sets use the same bolt pattern?
So just so we are clear here, the base TL without a manual transmission uses 51210-SEP-A11 and 51215-SEP-A11 knuckles (Right/Left), the manual transmission cars and Type-S cars with the Brembo brakes use 51210-SEP-A01 and 51215-SEP-A01 knuckles (Right/Left); there is no question they are different knuckles. Are you saying both knuckles sets use the same bolt pattern?
I can confirm they are not. I attempted to swap the knuckles off a different vehicle during a suspension swap and hit a block at the front brake caliper. The multi-piston brakes use larger, wider spaced, bolts.
The rear brakes are nigh useless, would love to swap those to large rotor multi-pistons.
The rear brakes are nigh useless, would love to swap those to large rotor multi-pistons.
Even if you put larger rotor and multi-piston calipers on the rear of your TL, the rear brakes would still be pretty much useless. The fact is, for nose heavy FWD cars, rear brakes do maybe only fifteen to twenty percent of the braking due to weight transfer; anything more would lock up the rear tires and send you into a ditch or guard rail.
Said another way, if you took your TL to a track and drove hard until the brakes started to fade, it would be the front brakes which would give out first, the stock rears will be just fine.
Even if you put larger rotor and multi-piston calipers on the rear of your TL, the rear brakes would still be pretty much useless. The fact is, for nose heavy FWD cars, rear brakes do maybe only fifteen to twenty percent of the braking due to weight transfer; anything more would lock up the rear tires and send you into a ditch or guard rail.
Said another way, if you took your TL to a track and drove hard until the brakes started to fade, it would be the front brakes which would give out first, the stock rears will be just fine.
Was wondering about this as well, some weight distribution can be done, but not a ton to assist this.
I've been tempted to try and adjust/mod the proportioning valve, I think there is some braking power missing from the rears even if only 10/15% I can consistently get the front brakes to lock up way before the rears, both on Accord (small size caliper) and TL M/T ("Brembo").
In the past i've gotten much less squat and shorter stopping distances by tiering the brake pads. By that I mean I'll use EBC Yellowstuff pads in the rear, and Redstuff in the front; I've only tried this on the auto/accord size calipers but it made a large difference in the squat to the point I recommend using Redstuff rears and Green/other organic pads in the front on others cars with good results.
Given the proportioning is already tuned to the front, I figure a multi-piston caliper in rear would do the 10-20% increase in clamping force due to pneumatic surface area, preventing the need for adjusting the proportioning valve. I'd be comfortable running either same tier pads at this point, or stronger pads on front.
In cars without ABS, front brakes lock up before rears by design. If the rears locked up first then the control of the car becomes seriously compromised. In the case of my TL, I've never gotten a wheel to lock up; ABS always jumps in to prevent that.
So just so we are clear here, the base TL without a manual transmission uses 51210-SEP-A11 and 51215-SEP-A11 knuckles (Right/Left), the manual transmission cars and Type-S cars with the Brembo brakes use 51210-SEP-A01 and 51215-SEP-A01 knuckles (Right/Left); there is no question they are different knuckles. Are you saying both knuckles sets use the same bolt pattern?
Originally Posted by oraclem20
I can confirm they are not. I attempted to swap the knuckles off a different vehicle during a suspension swap and hit a block at the front brake caliper. The multi-piston brakes use larger, wider spaced, bolts.
The rear brakes are nigh useless, would love to swap those to large rotor multi-pistons.
Either you guys are using 'bolt pattern' to reference something else or are mixing up the term. The bolt pattern across all cars is 5x114.3.
Now... the spacing/distance for the calipers and bracket are entirely different on both knuckles.
Originally Posted by horseshoez
Even if you put larger rotor and multi-piston calipers on the rear of your TL, the rear brakes would still be pretty much useless. The fact is, for nose heavy FWD cars, rear brakes do maybe only fifteen to twenty percent of the braking due to weight transfer; anything more would lock up the rear tires and send you into a ditch or guard rail.
Said another way, if you took your TL to a track and drove hard until the brakes started to fade, it would be the front brakes which would give out first, the stock rears will be just fine.
Actually a lot of people who tracked the TL mentioned the rears fading first due to improper cooling of the brakes. Technically speaking having multi-piston calipers won't be what changes the braking bias... it would be the overall clamping force. You can have a few smaller pistons doing the same amount of work as 1 large piston. Where a multi-piston caliper would be beneficial is it's ability to resist brake fading and thus provide consistent braking.
Fun fact... in most cars that offer a single piston vs multi piston brake option the single piston will have better INITIAL braking distance but have significantly worse braking distance as more and more braking is done. Meanwhile a multi-piston caliper would retain very close to it's original braking distance.
And to tie it all in together... a reason why people would want to upgrade to a larger rotor/caliper is to switch from a SOLID rotor to a VENTED rotor. For tracking purposes this is something you would most definitely want even in a FWD vehicle.
Originally Posted by oraclem20
Was wondering about this as well, some weight distribution can be done, but not a ton to assist this.
I've been tempted to try and adjust/mod the proportioning valve, I think there is some braking power missing from the rears even if only 10/15% I can consistently get the front brakes to lock up way before the rears, both on Accord (small size caliper) and TL M/T ("Brembo").
In the past i've gotten much less squat and shorter stopping distances by tiering the brake pads. By that I mean I'll use EBC Yellowstuff pads in the rear, and Redstuff in the front; I've only tried this on the auto/accord size calipers but it made a large difference in the squat to the point I recommend using Redstuff rears and Green/other organic pads in the front on others cars with good results.
Given the proportioning is already tuned to the front, I figure a multi-piston caliper in rear would do the 10-20% increase in clamping force due to pneumatic surface area, preventing the need for adjusting the proportioning valve. I'd be comfortable running either same tier pads at this point, or stronger pads on front.
Several people (mainly OGs) who tracked the car actually stated they would welcome a bit more rear bias on our cars. The additional benefits of cooling that come from a rear BBK is extremely welcomed.
For every day purposes it's obviously not needed and just upgrading to SS lines and higher quality pads+rotors would be more than enough.
07-03-2019, 06:38 AM
