Anyone heard of the RV6 HFPC mesh failing?
03-19-2016, 08:47 AM
#1
Pro
Thread Starter
Anyone heard of the RV6 HFPC mesh failing?
Two people on this Third Gen TL Facebook group I'm on have apparently had theirs fail within a year. First one was a year, second was 7 months. Now I'm worried. They had pictures too, the mesh looked like it was completely destroyed. Made the guys get check engine lights and they thought at first it was their o2 sensors. Granted there are many other factors that could have contributed to the failure but two different people having it happen has me concerned. Any thoughts on this?
03-19-2016, 10:36 AM
#3
Safety Car
iTrader: (5)
I bought a used set that had it and got it refunded. And one of my new sets has it but not that bad so I left it. One day I'll replace it.
There's a few others in here that have it too. It happens
I think mine happened when I was tuning and had some really rich tunes during the initial tuning process.
There's a few others in here that have it too. It happens
I think mine happened when I was tuning and had some really rich tunes during the initial tuning process.
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godhand89 (04-19-2019)
03-19-2016, 01:22 PM
#6
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Could have been a bad batch. I know the media in the rear was loose on mine, but it hasn't collapsed yet. I been rocking them for 2 years, not sure how much the previous owner had on them
03-19-2016, 03:15 PM
#7
Pro
I just changed switch my hfpcs for pcds, when i had the hfpcs i got a cel and a code for p04020 upon uninstalling the rear hfpc mesh was loose so i don't know if that would of caused me to get that code btw i bought them off a member about 2yrs ago so i don't know how long he had them for
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03-19-2016, 03:26 PM
#8
Pro
Thread Starter
Maybe I'm good then. I literally bought them back in January and had them installed last month and I got a good look at the material inside and everything checked out ok.
03-19-2016, 09:51 PM
#11
Yes the inside of a cat is called a substrate.
Usually they fail/melt/become loose from overfueling or running rich, and the fuel will burn up in the substrate, causing the substrate to get very hot. Sometimes a substrate that is to saturated with fuel can melt and plug, causing restrictions that cause too high of exhaust back pressure, and giving a lack of power. The substrate can also be damaged by misfires that let too much fuel go into the cat, or leaking injectors. Even excessive oil burning or coolant can plug a cat.
If you want to keep substrate in your exhaust (ie catalytic converters or HFPC) OEM os obviously the best for longevity and less failures. Anything aftermarket seems to always have a short life span, I think because of what they are made of/how they are made.
PCD's are the way to go.
Usually they fail/melt/become loose from overfueling or running rich, and the fuel will burn up in the substrate, causing the substrate to get very hot. Sometimes a substrate that is to saturated with fuel can melt and plug, causing restrictions that cause too high of exhaust back pressure, and giving a lack of power. The substrate can also be damaged by misfires that let too much fuel go into the cat, or leaking injectors. Even excessive oil burning or coolant can plug a cat.
If you want to keep substrate in your exhaust (ie catalytic converters or HFPC) OEM os obviously the best for longevity and less failures. Anything aftermarket seems to always have a short life span, I think because of what they are made of/how they are made.
PCD's are the way to go.
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mtiaz (03-20-2016)
03-19-2016, 11:55 PM
#12
Suzuka Master
iTrader: (2)
Why are you worrying about a couple isolated incidents if you're not having any problems? My HFPCs are five years old with 50k on them and they're fine. Your only other option is PCDs that smell/sound horrible, at the expense of a couple more horsepower.
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EvilVirus (03-22-2016)
03-20-2016, 07:13 AM
#13
Pro
Thread Starter
I worry because my OCD demands a quality finished product that isn't compromised of faulty or off brand junk. That's why I'm so critical about stuff like this even if I'm not actively having the problem. I'd rather be safe now than sorry later on. But it's good to know that Canadian3GTL hasn't had any issues.
03-20-2016, 10:14 AM
#15
Safety Car
iTrader: (5)
TLPriject, the only people that have issues are the ones that had to look inside for whatever reason (I had to switch for smog temporarily). No one is going to check this on a regular basis haha it's a pain in the butt.
Are you goig to inspect yours every few months??
Are you goig to inspect yours every few months??
03-20-2016, 10:30 AM
#16
Intermediate
So are the pcds better than the hfpcs? I agree with TL, you want something that will last and not require extra maintenance every couple of months. The perks of the hfpcs is the reduction of noise and smell?
03-20-2016, 10:38 AM
#17
Pro
Yes the inside of a cat is called a substrate.
Usually they fail/melt/become loose from overfueling or running rich, and the fuel will burn up in the substrate, causing the substrate to get very hot. Sometimes a substrate that is to saturated with fuel can melt and plug, causing restrictions that cause too high of exhaust back pressure, and giving a lack of power. The substrate can also be damaged by misfires that let too much fuel go into the cat, or leaking injectors. Even excessive oil burning or coolant can plug a cat.
If you want to keep substrate in your exhaust (ie catalytic converters or HFPC) OEM os obviously the best for longevity and less failures. Anything aftermarket seems to always have a short life span, I think because of what they are made of/how they are made.
PCD's are the way to go.
Usually they fail/melt/become loose from overfueling or running rich, and the fuel will burn up in the substrate, causing the substrate to get very hot. Sometimes a substrate that is to saturated with fuel can melt and plug, causing restrictions that cause too high of exhaust back pressure, and giving a lack of power. The substrate can also be damaged by misfires that let too much fuel go into the cat, or leaking injectors. Even excessive oil burning or coolant can plug a cat.
If you want to keep substrate in your exhaust (ie catalytic converters or HFPC) OEM os obviously the best for longevity and less failures. Anything aftermarket seems to always have a short life span, I think because of what they are made of/how they are made.
PCD's are the way to go.
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mtiaz (03-20-2016)
03-20-2016, 11:24 AM
#19
Pro
03-20-2016, 12:14 PM
#20
Pro
Thread Starter
I WISH I could get you guys to hear how it REALLY sounds in person. The sound is just...unbelievable. It sounds like a 6 cylinder version of a WRX but faster cam lope. The way it resonates thru the city is crazy man, people are constantly turning heads wondering where it's coming from lmao
03-20-2016, 12:35 PM
#22
I was thinking the same thing...
it does sound awesome.
I recently had pcd and richie was kind enough to allow me to pay to swap over to some hfpc...I couldn't deal with the rasp before.
I'm sure he'll chime in soon on this concern you guys have.
it does sound awesome.
I recently had pcd and richie was kind enough to allow me to pay to swap over to some hfpc...I couldn't deal with the rasp before.
I'm sure he'll chime in soon on this concern you guys have.
03-20-2016, 12:44 PM
#23
Suzuka Master
iTrader: (2)
Yeah, but your TL doesn't go from sounding like a Duramax at start up, then transform into a super car in the tunnels, and then turn into a six cylinder boxer engine. The TL Project's car is much more chameleon-like.
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03-20-2016, 12:52 PM
#24
Pro
Thread Starter
The sound at start up that I've shown was on a purely cold engine. When it's warmed up it sounds completely normal. Loud, but non truck-like. One of you fuckers come to Baltimore city and you'll see, lmfao
03-20-2016, 01:32 PM
#26
Safety Car
iTrader: (5)
How do you go from starting a thread asking HFPCs for their opinion on something and then telling us randomly we have to hear it? Every opinion you'll get here is from HFPC owners so we know what it sounds like.
I'm just confused on the change in direction of your thread
I'm just confused on the change in direction of your thread
03-20-2016, 06:08 PM
#27
Former Sponsor
Hey guys. I have been working with the customers on facebook who recently had HFPCs fail. It has been difficult to help them since they never reached out to me directly. HFPCs have been around for years and have been a solid product. The failure rate is under 2% most of those could have been prevented with common sense and maintenance. For example we had 3 sets in a row fail in the 9G Accord community. Turns out these guys removed their speed limiter and were trying to break each others top speed record. By holding engines at full load for 5-10 mins at a time. 
Here is what I posted on FB which contains useful information.
Robert A - Recently helped a friend swap out a bad rear O2 sensor when he noticed a melted rear HFPC. The failing O2 sensor most likely took out the rear HFPC. His front HFPCs is fine.
Brad F - For some unknown reason his factory precats failed and he blew his motor. He replaced the motor and installed HFPCs. The HFPCs also failed which leads me to believe what ever issue that caused his original engine and precats to fail was never fixed.
Here is what I posted on FB which contains useful information.
ey Guy, Richie from RV6 here. I don't get on Facebook very much however feel free to contact me with questions and concerns.
As for the burnt out HFPCs we this every once in a while. Last year it was around 10 cores throughout all platforms. As stated on our products page we only warranty the welding and castings HFPCs the converters cores are warranted through Magnaflow.
The metallic cores we use can take a good amount of abuse. They do not crack and crumble like OE ceramic cores. However if enough fuel is dumped on them they will heat up to the point where the stainless metallic substrate melts and the brazing that holds the cores together fails.
What causes the cores to fail is excessive temperatures. This can be caused from a engine running to lean or rich. Some typical causes we have seen over the years.
- Bad O2 sensor - As these cars age the O2 sensors simply wear out and provides inaccurate readings to the ECU. Will cause a rich or lean condition.
- Faulty/Weak coil pack - Another electrical component that degrades over time. If the spark is weak or missing unburnt fuel will dump into exhaust and heat up cats.
- Spark plug tube seals - I would say this a most common obvious cause. The seal around the spark plug tube fails and oil from the valve cover gets into the tube. This grounds out the spark plug and unburnt fuel is dumped into exhaust.
-Bad MAP/MAF sensor - These sensors are critical for the metering of air and the calculation of how much fuel the ECU injects. The 3G TL doesn't have a MAF sensor. However on the 09+ TLs this is a major issues with intakes that have a poorly welded MAF flange and improperly sized intake tubes.
I highly recommend solving the problem before any type of new catalytic converter is installed. Otherwise it will overheat and burn out in short order.
How can RV6 help? We charge $50 labor to weld in a converter. The new converter and shipping of the old converter to Magnaflows's lab is $100. We submit the burnt cores to Magnaflow for testing. This usually takes a few months but they will dissect the core and see if it was a manufacturing defect or over heating. If it was a manufacturing flaw they will send us a new core and we will refund you $100. We usually have rebuilt HFPCs on the shelf so if you want to do a deposit we can ship you a replacement first.
As for the burnt out HFPCs we this every once in a while. Last year it was around 10 cores throughout all platforms. As stated on our products page we only warranty the welding and castings HFPCs the converters cores are warranted through Magnaflow.
The metallic cores we use can take a good amount of abuse. They do not crack and crumble like OE ceramic cores. However if enough fuel is dumped on them they will heat up to the point where the stainless metallic substrate melts and the brazing that holds the cores together fails.
What causes the cores to fail is excessive temperatures. This can be caused from a engine running to lean or rich. Some typical causes we have seen over the years.
- Bad O2 sensor - As these cars age the O2 sensors simply wear out and provides inaccurate readings to the ECU. Will cause a rich or lean condition.
- Faulty/Weak coil pack - Another electrical component that degrades over time. If the spark is weak or missing unburnt fuel will dump into exhaust and heat up cats.
- Spark plug tube seals - I would say this a most common obvious cause. The seal around the spark plug tube fails and oil from the valve cover gets into the tube. This grounds out the spark plug and unburnt fuel is dumped into exhaust.
-Bad MAP/MAF sensor - These sensors are critical for the metering of air and the calculation of how much fuel the ECU injects. The 3G TL doesn't have a MAF sensor. However on the 09+ TLs this is a major issues with intakes that have a poorly welded MAF flange and improperly sized intake tubes.
I highly recommend solving the problem before any type of new catalytic converter is installed. Otherwise it will overheat and burn out in short order.
How can RV6 help? We charge $50 labor to weld in a converter. The new converter and shipping of the old converter to Magnaflows's lab is $100. We submit the burnt cores to Magnaflow for testing. This usually takes a few months but they will dissect the core and see if it was a manufacturing defect or over heating. If it was a manufacturing flaw they will send us a new core and we will refund you $100. We usually have rebuilt HFPCs on the shelf so if you want to do a deposit we can ship you a replacement first.
Brad F - For some unknown reason his factory precats failed and he blew his motor. He replaced the motor and installed HFPCs. The HFPCs also failed which leads me to believe what ever issue that caused his original engine and precats to fail was never fixed.
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03-20-2016, 06:34 PM
#30
Safety Car
iTrader: (5)
How can RV6 help? We charge $50 labor to weld in a converter. The new converter and shipping of the old converter to Magnaflows's lab is $100. We submit the burnt cores to Magnaflow for testing. This usually takes a few months but they will dissect the core and see if it was a manufacturing defect or over heating. If it was a manufacturing flaw they will send us a new core and we will refund you $100. We usually have rebuilt HFPCs on the shelf so if you want to do a deposit we can ship you a replacement first..
03-21-2016, 08:10 PM
#31
Great response Richie...as usual...we appreciate that you are always so well versed and are not only a business owner, but also a true enthusiast that knows what he's selling, what it does, and how it works. Great job.
J.
J.
03-21-2016, 11:17 PM
#32
Senior Moderator
The herringbone-corrugated ACR metal units outperformed equivalent plate-fin metal and conventional ceramic units and approached the performance of 25% larger ceramic converters.
A quick google will show that to anyone. For the lazy:
About Technical Ceramics - Pros, Cons & More | Precision Ceramics
I 100% agree with heeltoe that the cause of failing cats is not a defect in the cat itself, but a secondary issue such as a bad 02 sensor that dumps excessive fuel onto the cat.
Last edited by csmeance; 03-21-2016 at 11:22 PM.
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03-22-2016, 08:39 AM
#35
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@ csmeance
Metal Substrate - Metallic vs. Ceramic Catalyst Substrate
OEM cats do fail, but people don't post about it, or people buy HFPC/PCD before they have a chance to fail. It is mostly because the o2 sensor get out of range and spray extra fuel into the combustion and they overheat, or due to excessive shock to the substrate. Ceramic may be stronger than metal, but they are much more brittle (ever drop a ceramic knife on the ground?)
here is a short list of stuff to fix the existing problem
Why Did My Catalytic Converter Fail ?
AGCO Automotive Repair Service - Baton Rouge, LA - Detailed Auto Topics - Catalytic Converter Problems
Metal Substrate - Metallic vs. Ceramic Catalyst Substrate
OEM cats do fail, but people don't post about it, or people buy HFPC/PCD before they have a chance to fail. It is mostly because the o2 sensor get out of range and spray extra fuel into the combustion and they overheat, or due to excessive shock to the substrate. Ceramic may be stronger than metal, but they are much more brittle (ever drop a ceramic knife on the ground?)
here is a short list of stuff to fix the existing problem
Why Did My Catalytic Converter Fail ?
AGCO Automotive Repair Service - Baton Rouge, LA - Detailed Auto Topics - Catalytic Converter Problems
Last edited by thisaznboi88; 03-22-2016 at 08:41 AM.
03-22-2016, 12:55 PM
#36
Three Wheelin'
Could a bunch of bolt ons on our cars without a tune create a rich condition enough to damage cats?
03-22-2016, 01:06 PM
#38
Three Wheelin'
I don't find that strange at all. You start to skew lean or rich with mods as the stock ecu can only do so much.
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TheTLProject (03-22-2016)