Another UR Pulley thread, HELP!!
12-01-2009 | 09:51 PM
#41
^ im with him...
Of every mod i've ever done to my 3G TL's... the UR pulley had the best "feel" for $200...... the OEM pulley is around 8lbs... the UR is under 2lbs... huge difference
Of every mod i've ever done to my 3G TL's... the UR pulley had the best "feel" for $200...... the OEM pulley is around 8lbs... the UR is under 2lbs... huge difference
12-02-2009 | 08:13 AM
#42
Sorry 05TLRIDER....I just simply couldn't resist..
Ill keep this short and sweet...
Crank is balanced, to some degree..factory that is! Meaning, to reliably handle 7000 RPM.
All this below has nothing to do with the crank being balanced. I mean, if the crank wasn't balanced, you'd feel like you're driving a tractor by the vibrations it would cause.
All these crank pulley terms, Harmonic damper, Harmonic balancer, are not right.
Its called "Torsional" dampener
Its critical role is pretty much to cancel any vibrations of the crank which are caused by crank twist that's transfered to the crank at every power stroke from each cylinder.
These are in a form of rhythmic vibrations, and they're canceled out by that heavy metal hub attached to the rubber in the crank pulley (whoever has seen and paid attention to one).
Each one is designed to certain specs to help cancer harmonic vibrations based on crank strength, and its limit to power stroke twists.
Sometimes extra weight is added to the pulley simply to help out on balancing the crank itself, due to the fact that more weight may have not been able to be added to the crank counterweights. Without this, sometimes at a certain rpm, or point in time, or even with more power which comes with much harsher power strokes, you could reach a threshold of the cranks ability to resist twisting based on the material its made, resulting in catastrophic endings, such as: shearing of bolts and having a flywheel fly through the hood, blowing apart your PP and shattering a trannny housing, crank pulley itself flying into the radiator or through the firewall, enough vibrations with it to snap a timing belt resulting in blown apart valvetrain components, pistons, as well as snapping a rod and sending it through the block etc...I'm sure you got the picture by now!
But don't let this get to you and stop you from modding your car, or having an aftermarket pulley installed in your TL
. Heck I've done all kinds of reckless shit on my car, and thankfully nothing's happened lol.
Discouraging you isn't my priority.
Just take this as educational info
I have never ever heard a case where a UR pulley destroyed someone's car, so by all means, get a UR pulley! It will free up some HP
And btw, for what its worth, I don't have an aftermarket pulley
Ill keep this short and sweet...
Crank is balanced, to some degree..factory that is! Meaning, to reliably handle 7000 RPM.
All this below has nothing to do with the crank being balanced. I mean, if the crank wasn't balanced, you'd feel like you're driving a tractor by the vibrations it would cause.
All these crank pulley terms, Harmonic damper, Harmonic balancer, are not right.
Its called "Torsional" dampener
Its critical role is pretty much to cancel any vibrations of the crank which are caused by crank twist that's transfered to the crank at every power stroke from each cylinder.
These are in a form of rhythmic vibrations, and they're canceled out by that heavy metal hub attached to the rubber in the crank pulley (whoever has seen and paid attention to one).
Each one is designed to certain specs to help cancer harmonic vibrations based on crank strength, and its limit to power stroke twists.
Sometimes extra weight is added to the pulley simply to help out on balancing the crank itself, due to the fact that more weight may have not been able to be added to the crank counterweights. Without this, sometimes at a certain rpm, or point in time, or even with more power which comes with much harsher power strokes, you could reach a threshold of the cranks ability to resist twisting based on the material its made, resulting in catastrophic endings, such as: shearing of bolts and having a flywheel fly through the hood, blowing apart your PP and shattering a trannny housing, crank pulley itself flying into the radiator or through the firewall, enough vibrations with it to snap a timing belt resulting in blown apart valvetrain components, pistons, as well as snapping a rod and sending it through the block etc...I'm sure you got the picture by now!
But don't let this get to you and stop you from modding your car, or having an aftermarket pulley installed in your TL
. Heck I've done all kinds of reckless shit on my car, and thankfully nothing's happened lol.Discouraging you isn't my priority.
Just take this as educational info
I have never ever heard a case where a UR pulley destroyed someone's car, so by all means, get a UR pulley! It will free up some HP
And btw, for what its worth, I don't have an aftermarket pulley
12-02-2009 | 09:36 AM
#43
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 404
Likes: 1
Well like I said in a previous post......the shop is being a total PITA about swapping the pulley back to the factory one. Got there last night, the guy looks at me and says "I totally forgot your were coming in" and they convienently had cars on the lifts that couldn't come quickly/easily. Long story short I have to wait until Friday afternoon to get the pulley swapped for the factory one. This will be the last time I use this shop for anything!!! Next time I'm driving to NY and having Opel help me out.....or wherever IHC lives maybe, if that's closer!
I did have the guy go for a test drive with me and he is suggesting that the vibration I'm feeling is from a harmonic created from the exhaust which transfers through the vehicle....not really buying this one, but I suppose it's possible.
I guess just wait another couple days to find out what happens.....sorry to keep you guys hanging here.
I did have the guy go for a test drive with me and he is suggesting that the vibration I'm feeling is from a harmonic created from the exhaust which transfers through the vehicle....not really buying this one, but I suppose it's possible.
I guess just wait another couple days to find out what happens.....sorry to keep you guys hanging here.
12-02-2009 | 09:51 AM
#44
Advanced
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
From: NOVA
*VSS/ SPEEDO if your car loses it's speed reference vtec will not engage. the ecu will see it just as if you were sitting still reving the engine, no vtec
Check the service manual....
Check the service manual....
Last edited by JS08TLS; 12-02-2009 at 09:53 AM.
12-02-2009 | 09:54 AM
#45
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From: www.ExceleratePerformance.com
If you are increasing your power output by 2.5-3 times the original power or more or raising the redline by 2-3k RPM's or more then you would actually want to get an aftermarket harmonic dampers like these ones:
http://www.fluidampr.com/
However, 100 HP more on a 250-300 HP car will not require a different pulley and the UR pulley is fine with that setup.
And, for what it's worth, I have had the UR pulley set on my built F23A1 (99 Accord) with a T3/T4 turbo running 15 psi and making 300whp and 275 wtq for 30K+.When we took the motor apart to build it for the turbo setup everything was clean and the motor has been assembled and running great with the pulleys for 6k now.
http://www.fluidampr.com/
However, 100 HP more on a 250-300 HP car will not require a different pulley and the UR pulley is fine with that setup.
And, for what it's worth, I have had the UR pulley set on my built F23A1 (99 Accord) with a T3/T4 turbo running 15 psi and making 300whp and 275 wtq for 30K+.When we took the motor apart to build it for the turbo setup everything was clean and the motor has been assembled and running great with the pulleys for 6k now.
Last edited by Excelerate; 12-02-2009 at 09:58 AM.
12-02-2009 | 08:32 PM
#46
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,360
Likes: 47
From: NYC
When ya add that kinda power (im going to think, boost), do you really think you're gonna look at a pulley twice for 5 hp? It honestly depends on the motor.
What I wrote about the pulley (Torsional dampener), was just to clarify its role with the motor. None of it means that anything I said will happen.
I like the idea of a free, light reving motor...I like how they sound too!
I have absolutely nothing against the light weight UR pulley.
Heck, Ill probably attempt to drive on 3 wheels, but that's me.
One thing that I don't agree with is...if you have a light weight flywheel, run your stock pulley!
Other than that, like Josh mentioned, there's aftermarket pulleys to meet your demands if it ever came down to it. You can get an aftermarket Torsional dampener to absorb and cancel out stronger rhythmics frequencies caused by additional power, stronger power strokes.
And lastly....Our crank is just bullet proof! sitting in 4 bolt main caps
So don't worry about it much.
What I wrote about the pulley (Torsional dampener), was just to clarify its role with the motor. None of it means that anything I said will happen.
I like the idea of a free, light reving motor...I like how they sound too!
I have absolutely nothing against the light weight UR pulley.
Heck, Ill probably attempt to drive on 3 wheels, but that's me.
One thing that I don't agree with is...if you have a light weight flywheel, run your stock pulley!
Other than that, like Josh mentioned, there's aftermarket pulleys to meet your demands if it ever came down to it. You can get an aftermarket Torsional dampener to absorb and cancel out stronger rhythmics frequencies caused by additional power, stronger power strokes.
And lastly....Our crank is just bullet proof! sitting in 4 bolt main caps
So don't worry about it much.
12-02-2009 | 08:39 PM
#47
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,360
Likes: 47
From: NYC
Well like I said in a previous post......the shop is being a total PITA about swapping the pulley back to the factory one. Got there last night, the guy looks at me and says "I totally forgot your were coming in" and they convienently had cars on the lifts that couldn't come quickly/easily. Long story short I have to wait until Friday afternoon to get the pulley swapped for the factory one. This will be the last time I use this shop for anything!!! Next time I'm driving to NY and having Opel help me out.....or wherever IHC lives maybe, if that's closer!
I did have the guy go for a test drive with me and he is suggesting that the vibration I'm feeling is from a harmonic created from the exhaust which transfers through the vehicle....not really buying this one, but I suppose it's possible.
I guess just wait another couple days to find out what happens.....sorry to keep you guys hanging here.
I did have the guy go for a test drive with me and he is suggesting that the vibration I'm feeling is from a harmonic created from the exhaust which transfers through the vehicle....not really buying this one, but I suppose it's possible.
I guess just wait another couple days to find out what happens.....sorry to keep you guys hanging here.
Geeeez, what a whizz. Anyway, just waiting on you to swap!
....And btw, IHC is closer... lol
12-04-2009 | 06:42 PM
#48
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 404
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Well Opel.....you were right. Switched out the pulleys and absolutely no vibration! Have you been wrong yet on these forums? I quickly looked at the pulley and it looks alright, but I do have before install pics of pulley(something of a weird habit I have-I take pics of all my parts before I install them, basically right out of the box). I'll take a closer look this weekend in good light and compare the pics to what I have. I'll let you know if I find anything. Thanks for your input so far.
Maybe I'm about midway for you and IHC so you both should just come out
Maybe I'm about midway for you and IHC so you both should just come out
12-04-2009 | 10:26 PM
#49
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 950
Likes: 45
From: Shawnee, KS
The pulley is a harmonic damper, not a balancer. The motor is internally balanced. Old school American V8 motors required external balancers, but even then they weren't harmonic balancers. The pulley is a damper though b/c as I said it dampens noise from the accessory system, even though replacing the original pulley with the UR pulley doesn't add to any additional vibration. In fact, most ppl find the vehicle runs smoother.
I've run an UR UDP on my previous VQ30. Same weight reduction on the pulley (~-5lbs) and I noticed absolutely no difference in accessory noise, but it DID cause grainy vibrations above 5000rpms. Additionally, the car dynoed within 1hp of what it did without the UDP and the car was actually slower in the 1/4 mile because the reduced inertial weight caused the motor to bog slightly on launch. I ran the UDP for about 20K miles and 1.5 years and then went to the OEM pulley. The motor was back to being velvety smooth and far easier to launch. Who would have known that removing 5lbs of rotational weight from the motor would have such an impact on 0 to 330' times.
12-05-2009 | 07:26 PM
#50
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,360
Likes: 47
From: NYC
^^^^Agreed!
05TLRIDER...Glad to hear you found the problem, rather than it being something more serious (didnt expect anything serious, but just had to have you prepared for the worst lol)
Now it would be interesting, if we could find out whether the pulley was damaged while being installed or it was defective.
I have never heard of a case of the UR pulley being defective. They're pretty good with what they make. Only thing I'd expect from them with a pulley is, being outta balance. Now if the pulley is deformed in anyway, Id imagine that it happened while being installed...
Maybe from accidentally trying to tighten it while the pulley rested on the crank pin unintentionally, rather then slide through the pin lol, or they just rammed the shit out of it with an air gun and deformed it lol..it would be nice if you had access to a machine shop and check it for straightness...or balance.
But either way, glad this was resolved!
05TLRIDER...Glad to hear you found the problem, rather than it being something more serious
(didnt expect anything serious, but just had to have you prepared for the worst lol)Now it would be interesting, if we could find out whether the pulley was damaged while being installed or it was defective.
I have never heard of a case of the UR pulley being defective. They're pretty good with what they make. Only thing I'd expect from them with a pulley is, being outta balance. Now if the pulley is deformed in anyway, Id imagine that it happened while being installed...
Maybe from accidentally trying to tighten it while the pulley rested on the crank pin unintentionally, rather then slide through the pin lol, or they just rammed the shit out of it with an air gun and deformed it lol..it would be nice if you had access to a machine shop and check it for straightness...or balance.
But either way, glad this was resolved!
Well Opel.....you were right. Switched out the pulleys and absolutely no vibration! Have you been wrong yet on these forums? I quickly looked at the pulley and it looks alright, but I do have before install pics of pulley(something of a weird habit I have-I take pics of all my parts before I install them, basically right out of the box). I'll take a closer look this weekend in good light and compare the pics to what I have. I'll let you know if I find anything. Thanks for your input so far.
Maybe I'm about midway for you and IHC so you both should just come out
Maybe I'm about midway for you and IHC so you both should just come out
12-06-2009 | 11:53 AM
#51
Safety Car
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,563
Likes: 2
From: USA
it could only be a crank damper.... thats what the rubbers for in the pulley. these motors are built so fast they have faults in them that have to be covered up to a degree, acura cant waste time perfecting the motors....they dont even care....they want the car on the road now! in a hot rod they dont have machines throw things together, its by hand... so its balanced from the inside and it uses a solid style pulley to push everything else on the outside or "pull"
12-06-2009 | 12:06 PM
#52
Back From The dead
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,038
Likes: 49
From: NJ
Think about it another way. If your wheels are out of balance, you usually experience vibration between 65 and 70 mph. A confined range of wheel rpms, like a confined range of engine rpms can end up with the same type of result.
12-07-2009 | 11:30 AM
#53
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 950
Likes: 45
From: Shawnee, KS
it could only be a crank damper.... thats what the rubbers for in the pulley. these motors are built so fast they have faults in them that have to be covered up to a degree, acura cant waste time perfecting the motors....they dont even care....they want the car on the road now! in a hot rod they dont have machines throw things together, its by hand... so its balanced from the inside and it uses a solid style pulley to push everything else on the outside or "pull"
Not really true. Build tolerances on late model engines are extremely tight and the R&D and QA/QC that goes into motors is both time consuming and costs multiple millions of dollars. The whole notion that certain motors are "internally balanced" and some aren't is an absolute lie. All late model (last 20+ years) motors are internally balanced. The vibrations and bending of the crank occurs under load when the pistons are being forced down by rapid explosions and high revolutions. No matter how much balancing you do, the issue is going to be there. The way to combat the issue is to make the motor strong enough to handle the loads and to add various damping systems.
12-07-2009 | 02:31 PM
#54
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From: www.ExceleratePerformance.com
That's definitely an odd occurrence. I only remember one other member a few years back who claimed there was a vibration at higher RPM's. Either the pulley was damaged during install, shipping, etc or the crank pulley bolt was improperly torqued down (too little or too much). It's also possible you have something else askew underneath there. But I've had hundreds of members report back about how smooth their engine ran after the pulley install (no vibrations, noises, etc) and we have installed dozens, if not more, of these pulleys and not experienced a vibration issue. So, in my opinion, it's not a pulley issue in general but more likely an issue with that specific pulley.
12-07-2009 | 03:39 PM
#56
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From: www.ExceleratePerformance.com
The pulley only goes on one way. There is a machined groove in the pulley for the key on the end of the crankshaft (looks like a half moon). There are also timing marks on the pulley.
12-07-2009 | 04:20 PM
#57
Burning Brakes
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 950
Likes: 45
From: Shawnee, KS
Yep, it only goes one way. You'd have to be a moron to mess up the install. As for proper torque, I believe it's no different than most any other crank pulley. Torque to about 90 ft/lbs and then crank another 1/4 turn or so. That usually brings the torque up into the 160 ft/lb range. The problem is the motor was to turn over with far less torque so you need to lock the flywheel to do it.
12-07-2009 | 04:36 PM
#58
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From: www.ExceleratePerformance.com
Yep, it only goes one way. You'd have to be a moron to mess up the install. As for proper torque, I believe it's no different than most any other crank pulley. Torque to about 90 ft/lbs and then crank another 1/4 turn or so. That usually brings the torque up into the 160 ft/lb range. The problem is the motor was to turn over with far less torque so you need to lock the flywheel to do it.
http://www.unorthodoxracing.com/guides/020611402.pdf
It should come out to roughly 180 ft lbs of tq.
12-08-2009 | 09:57 AM
#59
Thread Starter
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Joined: Apr 2006
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I guess that question was poorly worded, cause I understand how to install the pulley. I'm asking whether there could be a physical groove or mark from where the crank bolt tightens down against the pulley that would indicate that it was torqued down too much? I'm trying to figure out whether the shop cranked on it too much or whether it's a defect in the pulley.
12-08-2009 | 05:57 PM
#60
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,360
Likes: 47
From: NYC
I guess that question was poorly worded, cause I understand how to install the pulley. I'm asking whether there could be a physical groove or mark from where the crank bolt tightens down against the pulley that would indicate that it was torqued down too much? I'm trying to figure out whether the shop cranked on it too much or whether it's a defect in the pulley.
12-09-2009 | 02:47 AM
#63
ok, this is what i was talking about. but it actually sounds like a different issue: http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SB/b05-017.PDF
12-09-2009 | 03:04 AM
#64
Safety Car
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,163
Likes: 7
From: Seattle, Washington
Sorry 05TLRIDER....I just simply couldn't resist..
Ill keep this short and sweet...
Crank is balanced, to some degree..factory that is! Meaning, to reliably handle 7000 RPM.
All this below has nothing to do with the crank being balanced. I mean, if the crank wasn't balanced, you'd feel like you're driving a tractor by the vibrations it would cause.
All these crank pulley terms, Harmonic damper, Harmonic balancer, are not right.
Its called "Torsional" dampener
Its critical role is pretty much to cancel any vibrations of the crank which are caused by crank twist that's transfered to the crank at every power stroke from each cylinder.
These are in a form of rhythmic vibrations, and they're canceled out by that heavy metal hub attached to the rubber in the crank pulley (whoever has seen and paid attention to one).
Each one is designed to certain specs to help cancer harmonic vibrations based on crank strength, and its limit to power stroke twists.
Sometimes extra weight is added to the pulley simply to help out on balancing the crank itself, due to the fact that more weight may have not been able to be added to the crank counterweights. Without this, sometimes at a certain rpm, or point in time, or even with more power which comes with much harsher power strokes, you could reach a threshold of the cranks ability to resist twisting based on the material its made, resulting in catastrophic endings, such as: shearing of bolts and having a flywheel fly through the hood, blowing apart your PP and shattering a trannny housing, crank pulley itself flying into the radiator or through the firewall, enough vibrations with it to snap a timing belt resulting in blown apart valvetrain components, pistons, as well as snapping a rod and sending it through the block etc...I'm sure you got the picture by now!
But don't let this get to you and stop you from modding your car, or having an aftermarket pulley installed in your TL. Heck I've done all kinds of reckless shit on my car, and thankfully nothing's happened lol.
Discouraging you isn't my priority.
Just take this as educational info
I have never ever heard a case where a UR pulley destroyed someone's car, so by all means, get a UR pulley! It will free up some HP
And btw, for what its worth, I don't have an aftermarket pulley
Ill keep this short and sweet...
Crank is balanced, to some degree..factory that is! Meaning, to reliably handle 7000 RPM.
All this below has nothing to do with the crank being balanced. I mean, if the crank wasn't balanced, you'd feel like you're driving a tractor by the vibrations it would cause.
All these crank pulley terms, Harmonic damper, Harmonic balancer, are not right.
Its called "Torsional" dampener
Its critical role is pretty much to cancel any vibrations of the crank which are caused by crank twist that's transfered to the crank at every power stroke from each cylinder.
These are in a form of rhythmic vibrations, and they're canceled out by that heavy metal hub attached to the rubber in the crank pulley (whoever has seen and paid attention to one).
Each one is designed to certain specs to help cancer harmonic vibrations based on crank strength, and its limit to power stroke twists.
Sometimes extra weight is added to the pulley simply to help out on balancing the crank itself, due to the fact that more weight may have not been able to be added to the crank counterweights. Without this, sometimes at a certain rpm, or point in time, or even with more power which comes with much harsher power strokes, you could reach a threshold of the cranks ability to resist twisting based on the material its made, resulting in catastrophic endings, such as: shearing of bolts and having a flywheel fly through the hood, blowing apart your PP and shattering a trannny housing, crank pulley itself flying into the radiator or through the firewall, enough vibrations with it to snap a timing belt resulting in blown apart valvetrain components, pistons, as well as snapping a rod and sending it through the block etc...I'm sure you got the picture by now!
But don't let this get to you and stop you from modding your car, or having an aftermarket pulley installed in your TL
. Heck I've done all kinds of reckless shit on my car, and thankfully nothing's happened lol.Discouraging you isn't my priority.
Just take this as educational info
I have never ever heard a case where a UR pulley destroyed someone's car, so by all means, get a UR pulley! It will free up some HP
And btw, for what its worth, I don't have an aftermarket pulley
12-09-2009 | 09:42 AM
#65
Thread Starter
Racer
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 404
Likes: 1
It's not really discolored....maybe a little dirt/grease, but that wiped right off. There is a minor grove though....probably from what you guessed originally about the shop blasting away with an impact. Is it possible that this is enough to throw it off balance? I suppose the groove is not uniform, because an impact doesn't give uniform pressure. In that case, the shop owner owes me a new pulley and refund for install and removal (I highly doubt he'll be willing to do any of that though).
12-09-2009 | 10:01 AM
#66
Former Sponsor
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Joined: Mar 2004
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From: www.ExceleratePerformance.com
This is just one problematic part. There are thousands of these pulleys out there with no issues. That being said all the pulleys are 0 gram balanced before they leave UR so I highly doubt it's a manufacturer defect. Also UR offers a 5 year warranty on their parts, a guarantee of the quality of the product and that it is free of defects in material and workmanship.
12-10-2009 | 10:28 AM
#68
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Joined: Apr 2006
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