AcuraZine gurus, please help this poor soul with his build
09-16-2016, 09:59 PM
#42
Instructor
Thread Starter
I didn't mention it because I don't think I'll be able to beat it lol, especially without a turbo. CTSV is probably in the class of the c6 ZR1 and C7 Zo6. I mean, they have pretty much the exact same engine.
I've searched through like hundreds of threads trying to find a j3x that made 350whp all motor and so far nothing. It seems this engine is limited by the size of the cam it can run therefore limiting the overall power. I mean, we ain't fitting no .5lift cam in the heads. Unless things have really changed in the last few years.
I mean, it probably didn't help that the hondata for the J series wasn't developed until late 2012, and before that, everyone seemed to run stock ecu. On top of that very few people actually dyno ed their car to post concrete results.
At most people have said to expect 30whp-50whp with full bolt ons. For a j32a2 that'd put it close to 300whp when it's all said and done. That's why I initially wanted to stroke it because, if a j32a2 can make 300whp, how much whp could a 3.5 make running the exact same cams, bolt ons, and higher compression revving to the stock rev limit of 7200? Barring minor details that need to be addressed I'd hope for something in the range of 320whp. Add the D series springs Yungone talked about and that regrind, then how much? I'm not really an optimistic, but with this I'd expect close to 350whp.
Would it work? Who knows. If anyone here has seen the sohc cams for the f22x by business, I'd probably want a cam similar to his 2.4 cam. Lopey sound, yet still streetable and not race spec.
But it's odd because this seems like it'd literally make me the first person to do this which doesn't feel right.
And no, I have no idea what I'm doing lol. I'm just a guy eager to learn who has read literally thousands of pages on this forum. Props to the real dudes who make this kind of thing possible
I've searched through like hundreds of threads trying to find a j3x that made 350whp all motor and so far nothing. It seems this engine is limited by the size of the cam it can run therefore limiting the overall power. I mean, we ain't fitting no .5lift cam in the heads. Unless things have really changed in the last few years.
I mean, it probably didn't help that the hondata for the J series wasn't developed until late 2012, and before that, everyone seemed to run stock ecu. On top of that very few people actually dyno ed their car to post concrete results.
At most people have said to expect 30whp-50whp with full bolt ons. For a j32a2 that'd put it close to 300whp when it's all said and done. That's why I initially wanted to stroke it because, if a j32a2 can make 300whp, how much whp could a 3.5 make running the exact same cams, bolt ons, and higher compression revving to the stock rev limit of 7200? Barring minor details that need to be addressed I'd hope for something in the range of 320whp. Add the D series springs Yungone talked about and that regrind, then how much? I'm not really an optimistic, but with this I'd expect close to 350whp.
Would it work? Who knows. If anyone here has seen the sohc cams for the f22x by business, I'd probably want a cam similar to his 2.4 cam. Lopey sound, yet still streetable and not race spec.
But it's odd because this seems like it'd literally make me the first person to do this which doesn't feel right.
And no, I have no idea what I'm doing lol. I'm just a guy eager to learn who has read literally thousands of pages on this forum. Props to the real dudes who make this kind of thing possible
09-16-2016, 10:22 PM
#43
09-16-2016, 10:27 PM
#44
3.5 psi
iTrader: (1)
I'm pretty sure P2R made like 305whp on their J32A2 swap accord. Long tubes, AEM standalone, N/A. A 3.5 will gain you torque, not HP. But you're right on the cams. A proper set could wake up the J up top.
09-16-2016, 10:49 PM
#45
Instructor
Thread Starter
I'm not 100% sure if that's an accurate statement by saying increasing the displacement will only increase torque. As long as both make power to the same point, I'd assume that you'd increase horsepower as well because after all, isn't it torque that creates horsepower? Yes, j35s are torque-ier, have more torque lmao, it appears that they almost certainly have more horsepower as well though. The same goes with the new j37s. Someone help! Lol.
For example:
J32a2 with 300whp would have the same whp as a 300whp j35a8 but less torque. Right? This is just an isolated example. I know other things come into play too.
And I'm still waiting for yungone501 to maybe share his secrets with me
. If the valve train is going to be upgraded because of a sexy cam, why not run the rpms higher than 7200?
Would I expect the gains from a regrind that other sohc honda engines gain from let's say, a bisimoto cam? I think super Street had an article on bisimotos D series 2.4 cam. It gained like 80whp lmao if I recall correctly just from a cam.
Probably not gonna get those gains, though
Someone want to explain long tubes? I though the rave was j-pipes
For example:
J32a2 with 300whp would have the same whp as a 300whp j35a8 but less torque. Right? This is just an isolated example. I know other things come into play too.
And I'm still waiting for yungone501 to maybe share his secrets with me
. If the valve train is going to be upgraded because of a sexy cam, why not run the rpms higher than 7200? Would I expect the gains from a regrind that other sohc honda engines gain from let's say, a bisimoto cam? I think super Street had an article on bisimotos D series 2.4 cam. It gained like 80whp lmao if I recall correctly just from a cam.
Probably not gonna get those gains, though
Someone want to explain long tubes? I though the rave was j-pipes
09-17-2016, 01:03 AM
#47
There is an adapter for the j37 manifold that allows you to mount the j32a2 throttle body to it HOWEVER if you're planning on running this motor full NA, you will need to purchase/install an aftermarket cable throttle body around 75-80mm. You could even go as low as 72mm but I would think the larger sizes are more common since they're used in many other applications. This means regardless, you will probably require a custom throttle body adapter since you will be restricted using a stock j32a2 TB at the numbers you're chasing.
Secondly, you will be hard pressed making the 350whp+ without going either investing some solid cash into this build or incorporating some method of forced induction onto it. And remember, not all variations of FI are expensive (i.e. nitrous). Though not impossible, your NA goal cannot be achieved as easily using the smaller displacement j-series engines. Honda states that there was an increase of 20hp alone just from bumping up displacement .2 liters (3.5 to 3.7) and if you're talking a difference of the j32 to the say j37, that's 40hp you'll be down from the get go. However, I'm still voting on the smaller j32 and simply working from that foundation onwards. You may never reach 350whp you are after but if you make it to even 310whp, that motor will still be DAMN potent.
I'm honestly, after having scanned through what's been said, pretty confused on what it is your after and think that we may be able to help out a little bit better if you can make a decision for yourself before seeking the guidance of others. Otherwise everyone's advice will toss you around like a wave in the sea. Most important factors include things such as the following:
* What is your budget? Not over the course of 10 years with the car but initially up front so a direction can be had of where the car will go in a few years from now. For instance, you cannot put so much time, effort and focus into building an NA monster when you feel it's possible you may want to go turbo in the near future. You must decide that if the engine will stay NA, that everything done in this moment will both contribute and aid in foundation to that decision. Otherwise you end up doing what most others do, WASTE TIME AND MONEY. I myself am guilty of this and have learned throughout the years to get a game plan ahead of time.
* Next is what specific power level are you after? Or at least a narrow range you may be looking towards. This one's sort of self evident as well but you can't go building something meant to handle 300hp when you will be running 600hp before its all said and done. Planning ahead works well in this area. Find a plan and hold fast to it. This is the most effective/efficient way to build a car and more importantly, not be dissuaded in completing it due to poor judgement and planning. Look around the forum...this happens a LOT. People become so overwhelmed or even upset with the car calling it a "huge waste of money and effort" but fail to realize again, it was how they approached the build in the beginning that dictated this outcome, not the busted ass car that now has a blown motor sitting uselessly in their parents driveway.
* To go forced induction or not go forced induction? This is always the big question in everyone's build strategy and most that make a hasty choice to delve into the darkside often aren't really aware of what they were up against only to go back to "stock" or make so many mistakes with the build it ends up costing them x2 or x3 before its all said and done! And again, there's a few of them around here on that one. The most recent being something like a, oh I dunno, a $15k-$20k "learning process" that ended up making SUB-350 horse.....wuuuuuuuuut?!?
So like I was saying, you will come here and you will get answers by many that will give good and bad advice. But unless you can decide these three things first, we are all (in reality) wasting time here. Do yourself a favor (and those committed to helping you) and figure this out so that you may actually come to enjoying it when the time has come.
Most of what I tell you comes from experience. I have invested very little in regards to what I have right now in my 6g Accord boasting a stock j35z with j37a4 heads running 16lbs of boost using e85 and water injection. I drive the holy shit out of this car nearly every day of the week and thoroughly enjoy it with immensity. It's well worth the dividend you receive at the finish when done correctly.
Secondly, you will be hard pressed making the 350whp+ without going either investing some solid cash into this build or incorporating some method of forced induction onto it. And remember, not all variations of FI are expensive (i.e. nitrous). Though not impossible, your NA goal cannot be achieved as easily using the smaller displacement j-series engines. Honda states that there was an increase of 20hp alone just from bumping up displacement .2 liters (3.5 to 3.7) and if you're talking a difference of the j32 to the say j37, that's 40hp you'll be down from the get go. However, I'm still voting on the smaller j32 and simply working from that foundation onwards. You may never reach 350whp you are after but if you make it to even 310whp, that motor will still be DAMN potent.
I'm honestly, after having scanned through what's been said, pretty confused on what it is your after and think that we may be able to help out a little bit better if you can make a decision for yourself before seeking the guidance of others. Otherwise everyone's advice will toss you around like a wave in the sea. Most important factors include things such as the following:
* What is your budget? Not over the course of 10 years with the car but initially up front so a direction can be had of where the car will go in a few years from now. For instance, you cannot put so much time, effort and focus into building an NA monster when you feel it's possible you may want to go turbo in the near future. You must decide that if the engine will stay NA, that everything done in this moment will both contribute and aid in foundation to that decision. Otherwise you end up doing what most others do, WASTE TIME AND MONEY. I myself am guilty of this and have learned throughout the years to get a game plan ahead of time.
* Next is what specific power level are you after? Or at least a narrow range you may be looking towards. This one's sort of self evident as well but you can't go building something meant to handle 300hp when you will be running 600hp before its all said and done. Planning ahead works well in this area. Find a plan and hold fast to it. This is the most effective/efficient way to build a car and more importantly, not be dissuaded in completing it due to poor judgement and planning. Look around the forum...this happens a LOT. People become so overwhelmed or even upset with the car calling it a "huge waste of money and effort" but fail to realize again, it was how they approached the build in the beginning that dictated this outcome, not the busted ass car that now has a blown motor sitting uselessly in their parents driveway.
* To go forced induction or not go forced induction? This is always the big question in everyone's build strategy and most that make a hasty choice to delve into the darkside often aren't really aware of what they were up against only to go back to "stock" or make so many mistakes with the build it ends up costing them x2 or x3 before its all said and done! And again, there's a few of them around here on that one. The most recent being something like a, oh I dunno, a $15k-$20k "learning process" that ended up making SUB-350 horse.....wuuuuuuuuut?!?
So like I was saying, you will come here and you will get answers by many that will give good and bad advice. But unless you can decide these three things first, we are all (in reality) wasting time here. Do yourself a favor (and those committed to helping you) and figure this out so that you may actually come to enjoying it when the time has come.
Most of what I tell you comes from experience. I have invested very little in regards to what I have right now in my 6g Accord boasting a stock j35z with j37a4 heads running 16lbs of boost using e85 and water injection. I drive the holy shit out of this car nearly every day of the week and thoroughly enjoy it with immensity. It's well worth the dividend you receive at the finish when done correctly.
09-17-2016, 01:41 AM
#48
Instructor
Thread Starter
Yungone501, I agree with everything you've said.
I have been a bit confusing but to make things the simplistic I can, we'll go with this:
1) I want enough power to be competitive against higher end cars such as top trim muscle cars, bmws, stis, EVOs etc. I'm assuming I'll need 300+ whp. This is from a roll, not 1/4 mile.
2) But at the same time, I'd like to as stock as possible because it's more efficient cost/hp wise. (Turbo or n/a)?
3) My budget starts are 5k for the engine. The decision will always be based on what kind of power oem components will hold. This isn't much race car, just a daily
I'm looking for 300-400. Im assume stock j35x rods will hold 400whp "reliably". You're right when you say you have to decide which way you want to go. I'm trying to get some advice on the direction right now. So far mostly everyone says to go N/A instead of turbo. Do you agree?
Don't live with my parents
I'm a responsible young buck lol
And poor I_love_cars
Did I answer all your questions? BTW, nice build
I have been a bit confusing but to make things the simplistic I can, we'll go with this:
1) I want enough power to be competitive against higher end cars such as top trim muscle cars, bmws, stis, EVOs etc. I'm assuming I'll need 300+ whp. This is from a roll, not 1/4 mile.
2) But at the same time, I'd like to as stock as possible because it's more efficient cost/hp wise. (Turbo or n/a)?
3) My budget starts are 5k for the engine. The decision will always be based on what kind of power oem components will hold. This isn't much race car, just a daily
I'm looking for 300-400. Im assume stock j35x rods will hold 400whp "reliably". You're right when you say you have to decide which way you want to go. I'm trying to get some advice on the direction right now. So far mostly everyone says to go N/A instead of turbo. Do you agree?
Don't live with my parents
I'm a responsible young buck lolAnd poor I_love_cars
Did I answer all your questions? BTW, nice build
09-17-2016, 12:01 PM
#50
Mr. Detail
If this is going to be a daily driver, I'd go with the largest, most stock torque J series engine you can get. Torque is what gets you going and I'm assuming on the street you aren't redlining it between every stop light. I wouldn't worry about boost or stroking a motor at this point, just do the engine swap, get it running and then tuned. That's going to be enough work in itself. And you might be surprised how well it runs in such a light car.
I swapped a 455 into a '77 Cutlass I used to have and even vs the mildly modified stock 350, the stock 455 still knocked nearly 2 seconds off the 0-60 time due to an extra 100 lb ft of torque. And rolling 20 mph burnouts with an open 2.73 rear end was pretty entertaining too.
I swapped a 455 into a '77 Cutlass I used to have and even vs the mildly modified stock 350, the stock 455 still knocked nearly 2 seconds off the 0-60 time due to an extra 100 lb ft of torque. And rolling 20 mph burnouts with an open 2.73 rear end was pretty entertaining too.
Last edited by Scottwax; 09-17-2016 at 12:03 PM.
09-17-2016, 12:45 PM
#51
Instructor
Thread Starter
Vagon are nice. Tanks...but nice lol.
I know the "easiest" route for me would be to just drop in something without having to break it open, but it won't meet my wants necessarily. Would a stock J be quick in my car and make it a nice daily? Yes. But I want just a little more power than that lol.
I think I'm probably going to stay away from boost because I haven't got a concrete answer on the limits of the stock internals. Just because one guy can run 700whp for a season doesn't mean that I'll be able to. Plus, anything over 400whp (FI) seems overkill and less streetable than something all motor at 300whp.Besides, what kind of small turbo gives you 100whp over what you'd be running all motor? Thisazanboy88 has a thread currently open with a j30 running a holsrt hx35, a turbo I happen to have also, but he's at 8.5psi and 390ish whp.
8.5psi on a j32 or j35 is probably gonna yield more power snapping rods and punching holes in the block in the process. So yeah, I'm thinking I'm not gonna be able to meet my goals without upgrading rods and pistons.
I might just have to stick with all motor
I know the "easiest" route for me would be to just drop in something without having to break it open, but it won't meet my wants necessarily. Would a stock J be quick in my car and make it a nice daily? Yes. But I want just a little more power than that lol.
I think I'm probably going to stay away from boost because I haven't got a concrete answer on the limits of the stock internals. Just because one guy can run 700whp for a season doesn't mean that I'll be able to. Plus, anything over 400whp (FI) seems overkill and less streetable than something all motor at 300whp.Besides, what kind of small turbo gives you 100whp over what you'd be running all motor? Thisazanboy88 has a thread currently open with a j30 running a holsrt hx35, a turbo I happen to have also, but he's at 8.5psi and 390ish whp.
8.5psi on a j32 or j35 is probably gonna yield more power snapping rods and punching holes in the block in the process. So yeah, I'm thinking I'm not gonna be able to meet my goals without upgrading rods and pistons.
I might just have to stick with all motor
09-17-2016, 01:16 PM
#52
Burning Brakes
You don't know what you want, I think you need to do some more soul searching. You want a car that can beat some serious cars, go down the drag strip, be cheap, reliable and something that your GF can drive. Here are some video's that you should watch notice what motors they are using, are they stock?
You have obviously not seen this video, S4's are fast!!
K24 vs a J series
Great watch for a crazy J series.
Check this article out as well, fast driver and car.
Affordable Speed - Coopers J-Swapped Civic ? tracktuned
You have obviously not seen this video, S4's are fast!!
K24 vs a J series
Great watch for a crazy J series.
Check this article out as well, fast driver and car.
Affordable Speed - Coopers J-Swapped Civic ? tracktuned
09-17-2016, 01:35 PM
#53
Instructor
Thread Starter
Something to beat serious cars? Yes. I just don't know if 300whp is the number I need to let me do so. That's why I contemplated turbo as well. The more comments though it looks like I'll have to settle for this (n/a) though as the cost/hp becomes far less efficient going turbo. (As well as there not being a lot of info on the power stock components handle)
I don't necessarily care how fast I goes down a drag strip. I suggested 12-13 seconds because I know 300whp should be close to those times. I wouldn't go to compete, just with friends because they wanted to go.
Not cheap. There's a big difference between cheap and efficient. I'm willing to pay to play. At the same time though I don't want to waste money. If I wanted to waste money, I could go out back and drop some cash into my fire pit lol
I'd definitely gonna take yungone advise and do that drive train swap though, that should deal with the gf.
This thread was to help me find my soul lol. I think I'm gonna have to stick to all motor. That's what most people suggest and it's gonna be quite a bit more reliable than turbo. Less parts and/but less power too
If the car ends up not being enough then I'll probably just sell it and go to the dark side like Rockstar suggested. LS1 life lmao
I don't necessarily care how fast I goes down a drag strip. I suggested 12-13 seconds because I know 300whp should be close to those times. I wouldn't go to compete, just with friends because they wanted to go.
Not cheap. There's a big difference between cheap and efficient. I'm willing to pay to play. At the same time though I don't want to waste money. If I wanted to waste money, I could go out back and drop some cash into my fire pit lol
I'd definitely gonna take yungone advise and do that drive train swap though, that should deal with the gf.
This thread was to help me find my soul lol. I think I'm gonna have to stick to all motor. That's what most people suggest and it's gonna be quite a bit more reliable than turbo. Less parts and/but less power too
If the car ends up not being enough then I'll probably just sell it and go to the dark side like Rockstar suggested. LS1 life lmao
09-17-2016, 03:44 PM
#54
Yungone501, I agree with everything you've said.
I have been a bit confusing but to make things the simplistic I can, we'll go with this:
1) I want enough power to be competitive against higher end cars such as top trim muscle cars, bmws, stis, EVOs etc. I'm assuming I'll need 300+ whp. This is from a roll, not 1/4 mile.
2) But at the same time, I'd like to as stock as possible because it's more efficient cost/hp wise. (Turbo or n/a)?
3) My budget starts are 5k for the engine. The decision will always be based on what kind of power oem components will hold. This isn't much race car, just a daily
I'm looking for 300-400. Im assume stock j35x rods will hold 400whp "reliably". You're right when you say you have to decide which way you want to go. I'm trying to get some advice on the direction right now. So far mostly everyone says to go N/A instead of turbo. Do you agree?
Don't live with my parents I'm a responsible young buck lol
And poor I_love_cars
Did I answer all your questions? BTW, nice build
I have been a bit confusing but to make things the simplistic I can, we'll go with this:
1) I want enough power to be competitive against higher end cars such as top trim muscle cars, bmws, stis, EVOs etc. I'm assuming I'll need 300+ whp. This is from a roll, not 1/4 mile.
2) But at the same time, I'd like to as stock as possible because it's more efficient cost/hp wise. (Turbo or n/a)?
3) My budget starts are 5k for the engine. The decision will always be based on what kind of power oem components will hold. This isn't much race car, just a daily
I'm looking for 300-400. Im assume stock j35x rods will hold 400whp "reliably". You're right when you say you have to decide which way you want to go. I'm trying to get some advice on the direction right now. So far mostly everyone says to go N/A instead of turbo. Do you agree?
Don't live with my parents
I'm a responsible young buck lolAnd poor I_love_cars
Did I answer all your questions? BTW, nice build
Alright, now we're getting somewhere.
I, personally, think your 300whp goal is ideal for daily use. This will easily allow the use of pump gas. I'm confident, if you target optimization of the traction in this car via tires and suspension tweaks, it will remain competitive even with most stock v8 production cars. Let me just say that I don't frequent cars on the road that give much of challenge and most of this is due to my cars power/weight ratio. If you have 300whp, a light car, and can apply your power to the ground without wheel spin, you won't have much to worry about either. IMO, you should focus more on the strategy of weight (or lack of) to gain an advantage on the street since you've pretty much decided on staying NA.
You've stated that you have $5k to play with, it will take a small fraction of that amount to get you engine at said power if you are smart with parts sourcing and learn to do all of the work yourself. This means you could potentially have up to several grand to invest elsewhere. Not too familiar with the Civic but I'm quite certain the aftermarket parts is fairly large and cheap. You should be able to locate some better, stronger and lighter chassis, steering and suspension related parts (which can generally be the heaviest) and even ones that are used or clearance sales for them. Build the car smart using you head instead of your wallet. Again, power to weight is where you will find your edge.
As an added plus, building an NA motor will definitely aid in reliability and fuel consumption. Increasing power in NA form usually comes from airflow efficiency within the motor which also happens to be what also helps the gas mileage. Given that the camshafts remain stock or don't have extreme profiles and also that it's tuned properly (or stock ECM is retained) that is. While finding additional power in an NA motor can prove to be challenging to an already efficient base, it definitely has its pros.
If you're looking for an more power than that, do so AFTER the traction kinks are worked out.
09-17-2016, 05:50 PM
#55
Instructor
Thread Starter
5k starting lol. Whatever it takes to play I'm willing to pay.
And I appreciate the advice Yungone501. The goal was always to be smart with my money, though it's something that people often confuse with being cheap.
Because I'm most likely going to be N/A, because I don't have concrete info on turbo on stock components, I'm going to try and aim for the highest amount of whp can get. So I'm gonna go high compression stroked j32.
My set up. All the way around.
Engine:
J32a2 block (03 cls)
J35a3 rods and crank (j35a3)
J32a2 head
J32a2 pistons
Bisimoto D series springs/j32a2 valves
Dual throttle body or j37 intake
Custom regrind cam
Transmission:
04-08 TL transmission or 03 CL-S (the ones with LSD)
Engine management:
J32a3 ecu
Hondata
Suspension:
Koni yellow w/ ground control (spring rates tbd)
LS front sway bar
Gsr rear sway bar
Tires:
Toyo RA-1 proxies
Rims:
Whatever fits the tires and looks cool
If I get 299whp fine. But I'd like to go as high as possible lol. I'll probably take a look at I love cars thread on his build that he spent too much money on. He has a lot of good info there even though the results were as great.
What do you guys think?
And I appreciate the advice Yungone501. The goal was always to be smart with my money, though it's something that people often confuse with being cheap.
Because I'm most likely going to be N/A, because I don't have concrete info on turbo on stock components, I'm going to try and aim for the highest amount of whp can get. So I'm gonna go high compression stroked j32.
My set up. All the way around.
Engine:
J32a2 block (03 cls)
J35a3 rods and crank (j35a3)
J32a2 head
J32a2 pistons
Bisimoto D series springs/j32a2 valves
Dual throttle body or j37 intake
Custom regrind cam
Transmission:
04-08 TL transmission or 03 CL-S (the ones with LSD)
Engine management:
J32a3 ecu
Hondata
Suspension:
Koni yellow w/ ground control (spring rates tbd)
LS front sway bar
Gsr rear sway bar
Tires:
Toyo RA-1 proxies
Rims:
Whatever fits the tires and looks cool
If I get 299whp fine. But I'd like to go as high as possible lol. I'll probably take a look at I love cars thread on his build that he spent too much money on. He has a lot of good info there even though the results were as great.
What do you guys think?
09-17-2016, 08:03 PM
#56
I didn't think you could use the A3 ecu setup with the A2 engine due to the crank trigger or something. Same with the TB - the A3 expects a DBW throttle body. You seem intent on using the 3.5 rods and crank just to say you have done a stroker/bigger motor? Why? If it's just to say you did, then I guess, but you could easily swap in a running engine and have less headaches. I could be very wrong, but I don't think that combo will make 300WHP. Cams on this engine do nothing but extend the rpm range. Will it make more power? To a dgree, but you're really just making the power by adding RPM, and RPM stands for ruins people's motors. Also, if I were going to do cams that could push the power to 7500+, I'd definitely want the J32 for the better rod ratio.
I think you got hung up when I was saying what the car would run in the 1/4 with certain amounts of HP. That wasn't to say "go to the track so you can run this mph" but more to demonstrate how fast the car would be. Have you ever driven a 115 mph car? Do you know what cars are capable of that? It appears you may not. I think a J32 with even 260whp is gonna surprise a LOT of cars. Will you run with 120mph+ cars like Z06s? No, you'd need to step up to FI for that, and then you'd ONLY do any good at high speed roll races.
If you go forced induction, if you aren't looking for 500WHP, I think a stock block would be fine. There's more than a few guys on V6P and J32 that have turbos on stock blocks. Most are running an AEM and have tuned their cars because they are track monkeys looking for the best ET, so their results cannot be compared to the few TLs here. I'm still not ENTIRELY convinced that the TL's Hondata is completely understood as far as knock control, and I think that has contributed to some of the setups demise here. I have a Hondata myself, but I'm tempted to switch to an MS3, if I can find one cheap enough to make it worth playing with.
I think you got hung up when I was saying what the car would run in the 1/4 with certain amounts of HP. That wasn't to say "go to the track so you can run this mph" but more to demonstrate how fast the car would be. Have you ever driven a 115 mph car? Do you know what cars are capable of that? It appears you may not. I think a J32 with even 260whp is gonna surprise a LOT of cars. Will you run with 120mph+ cars like Z06s? No, you'd need to step up to FI for that, and then you'd ONLY do any good at high speed roll races.
If you go forced induction, if you aren't looking for 500WHP, I think a stock block would be fine. There's more than a few guys on V6P and J32 that have turbos on stock blocks. Most are running an AEM and have tuned their cars because they are track monkeys looking for the best ET, so their results cannot be compared to the few TLs here. I'm still not ENTIRELY convinced that the TL's Hondata is completely understood as far as knock control, and I think that has contributed to some of the setups demise here. I have a Hondata myself, but I'm tempted to switch to an MS3, if I can find one cheap enough to make it worth playing with.
09-17-2016, 09:50 PM
#58
Instructor
Thread Starter
ScreamingZ28, you may be right about the ecu. I'm still learning about this because there isn't a lot for quality information out there. I'll find something soon hopefully lol. I didn't want to do DBW because it seems like I need the pedal and some other accessories from the donor car.
I'm pretty intent on the j35 rods and crank because it's far far more cost effective.
For instance I can just source the parts from a stock j32a2 and j35a3 by taking a quick stroll to a junk yard and picking then up for 300 or less a piece. A j37? Not so much.
As for cams, I know they extend he power band, that's why if probably want to look into dual throttle bodies so I don't start starving the cylinders up top. A bigger throttle body might help, but if a custom adapter needs to be made for it, why not just do a whole fabrication project and build a dual throttle body set up? More air more power. Also, this will have an aftermarket set of springs so I can avoid some valve float. (I know it's not gonna be that easy, but it might be worth the time)
As for rod ratio I believe with the j35 rods it still has a pretty good rod ratio of 1.7. J32 has 1.81 I believe.
And this combo absolutely net at least 300whp. At least....I'm pretty optimistic lol.
JJH in his thread "my path to 300whp" he was able to get 291whp with pretty much bolt ons and a tune. I believe his engine was a j35a8 if I remember correctly.
This engine im thinking about will be a 3.5 with higher compression and a better cam. I'd hope it'd make more power lol.
And no nos because I don't wanna refill for power. I want it to be there always.
I'm pretty intent on the j35 rods and crank because it's far far more cost effective.
For instance I can just source the parts from a stock j32a2 and j35a3 by taking a quick stroll to a junk yard and picking then up for 300 or less a piece. A j37? Not so much.
As for cams, I know they extend he power band, that's why if probably want to look into dual throttle bodies so I don't start starving the cylinders up top. A bigger throttle body might help, but if a custom adapter needs to be made for it, why not just do a whole fabrication project and build a dual throttle body set up? More air more power. Also, this will have an aftermarket set of springs so I can avoid some valve float. (I know it's not gonna be that easy, but it might be worth the time)
As for rod ratio I believe with the j35 rods it still has a pretty good rod ratio of 1.7. J32 has 1.81 I believe.
And this combo absolutely net at least 300whp. At least....I'm pretty optimistic lol.
JJH in his thread "my path to 300whp" he was able to get 291whp with pretty much bolt ons and a tune. I believe his engine was a j35a8 if I remember correctly.
This engine im thinking about will be a 3.5 with higher compression and a better cam. I'd hope it'd make more power lol.
And no nos because I don't wanna refill for power. I want it to be there always.
09-17-2016, 11:00 PM
#59
Its a known fact that the multi port exhaust heads respond VERY well to custom long tube headers (with other appropriate breathing mods) and seeing 30hp using the stock cams is not unheard of. Imagine the same scenario with better cams. This, of course, would require at least another 400-800 rpm increase in engine speed from stock redline but it's the best way to make more power without raising torque numbers. Agree with Z28, revs are the death of an engine but there has to be a compromise somewhere when you want power and reliability.
I did the exact opposite on my setup. Because of the tremendous abuse boost puts on the thin internals, I lowered my rev limiter from 6800 down to 6300. I don't think it matters much anyways because the high fuel tables show the engine uses the most fuel around 5850-6025 and then makes a sharp drop in usage from there. Could be from turbine choke on the engine or from the engines airflow capability under boost but either way I am more than satisfied with its reliability considering the ongoing massacre that's been seen on here and people's ringlands.
Again, start small initially and work your way up in power while accessing the cars ability to deal with power. Begin with breathing mods. I recommend finding and installing some custom headers immediately not only for power, but also to compliment the intake in adjusting the powerband upwards. Torque is your new enemy...as it is mine.
I did the exact opposite on my setup. Because of the tremendous abuse boost puts on the thin internals, I lowered my rev limiter from 6800 down to 6300. I don't think it matters much anyways because the high fuel tables show the engine uses the most fuel around 5850-6025 and then makes a sharp drop in usage from there. Could be from turbine choke on the engine or from the engines airflow capability under boost but either way I am more than satisfied with its reliability considering the ongoing massacre that's been seen on here and people's ringlands.
Again, start small initially and work your way up in power while accessing the cars ability to deal with power. Begin with breathing mods. I recommend finding and installing some custom headers immediately not only for power, but also to compliment the intake in adjusting the powerband upwards. Torque is your new enemy...as it is mine.
09-18-2016, 03:01 AM
#60
Instructor
Thread Starter
This site is really rejecting me lol. This is the third post today I've had not go through and have to rewrite ugh....
But anyways, I'll summarize.
I think the compromise for me is that it's alright to have a higher rev limit because I'd choose supporting mods, and on top of that it's that I rarely WOT or pull the car to redline. If the car is really as powerful as it is, I shouldn't need to push it that far, unless I really wanted or needed to.
As for your fuel tables well just have to see what happens with this car. FI is different than N/A
The last thing was about the intake. This is the part of the car I can see restricting the amount of power the car will make. Am I correct? I've read comments here an there that seem to imply that one of the biggest reasons these engines don't rev high is because they choke at higher rpms due to not enough available air.
I seen two users that have had dual throttle body set ups. Gerzand and a user called NVA-AV6. Does anyone know if they got gains from this mod? If so, how much? I'm looking towards this as an idea because it's interesting! And because you gotta have some options before narrowing it down.
But anyways, I'll summarize.
I think the compromise for me is that it's alright to have a higher rev limit because I'd choose supporting mods, and on top of that it's that I rarely WOT or pull the car to redline. If the car is really as powerful as it is, I shouldn't need to push it that far, unless I really wanted or needed to.
As for your fuel tables well just have to see what happens with this car. FI is different than N/A
The last thing was about the intake. This is the part of the car I can see restricting the amount of power the car will make. Am I correct? I've read comments here an there that seem to imply that one of the biggest reasons these engines don't rev high is because they choke at higher rpms due to not enough available air.
I seen two users that have had dual throttle body set ups. Gerzand and a user called NVA-AV6. Does anyone know if they got gains from this mod? If so, how much? I'm looking towards this as an idea because it's interesting! And because you gotta have some options before narrowing it down.
09-18-2016, 06:49 AM
#61
An engine can only use as much air as it can suck in, or what is forced in. I think the dual TB looks cool, but is not cost effective at all. Gerzand has Rotrex supercharger, so he's not dependent on what the engine can suck on its own. If I recall, NVA-AV6/Paul has or had an M90 supercharger on his, so another forced induction setup.
I admire your determination on grabbing 9 million different ideas, but there is a principle (in life, cars, anything really) called KISS. Keep it simple stupid. You see, to go off on tangents for the sake of it. I can tell you that Andy/Gerzand has already said that the Hondata does NOT like the dual TB, and he is switching to an AEM soon which will resolve it. If you are planning on using a Hondata, don't do the dual TB. But if you aren't planning on using DBW, you aren't planning on using a Hondata. In that case, you could use the dual TB with an AEM, but now expect to add a LOT of cost for the AEM and custom dual TB, for very little return in power.
Back to cams - remember that EVERY cam is a compromise. There is no such thing as a cam that will make more power at one end without sacrificing on the other. Even with the mighty VTEC, yo. If you don't care that you're moving your power band up because you won't go to redline, then you're gonna have a slower car than if you kept the stock cams. If you don't go WOT, it's pointless to have those big cams, as VTEC engagement is also determined partially by load.
If you do end up going with an A2 motor so you don't have to mess with the DBW, either you won't do any tuning with a stock ECU or you will need a standalone. Standalone means less drivability and less livability, unless you know how to tune, or have a tuner that will invest a LOT of time in things that don't add a lick of power. Tuning for power is quick and easy. Tuning for drivability is not.
If you go with an A3 motor, you need a Hondata to tune it, but your're back to your no dual TB (I still dont see the fascination with that) and figuring out the DBW. If you want a 3.5L, maybe consider the Odyssey or Pilot motor - they are still DBW, with the single exhaust port, and a lot cheaper than a Type-S motor.
I admire your determination on grabbing 9 million different ideas, but there is a principle (in life, cars, anything really) called KISS. Keep it simple stupid. You see, to go off on tangents for the sake of it. I can tell you that Andy/Gerzand has already said that the Hondata does NOT like the dual TB, and he is switching to an AEM soon which will resolve it. If you are planning on using a Hondata, don't do the dual TB. But if you aren't planning on using DBW, you aren't planning on using a Hondata. In that case, you could use the dual TB with an AEM, but now expect to add a LOT of cost for the AEM and custom dual TB, for very little return in power.
Back to cams - remember that EVERY cam is a compromise. There is no such thing as a cam that will make more power at one end without sacrificing on the other. Even with the mighty VTEC, yo. If you don't care that you're moving your power band up because you won't go to redline, then you're gonna have a slower car than if you kept the stock cams. If you don't go WOT, it's pointless to have those big cams, as VTEC engagement is also determined partially by load.
If you do end up going with an A2 motor so you don't have to mess with the DBW, either you won't do any tuning with a stock ECU or you will need a standalone. Standalone means less drivability and less livability, unless you know how to tune, or have a tuner that will invest a LOT of time in things that don't add a lick of power. Tuning for power is quick and easy. Tuning for drivability is not.
If you go with an A3 motor, you need a Hondata to tune it, but your're back to your no dual TB (I still dont see the fascination with that) and figuring out the DBW. If you want a 3.5L, maybe consider the Odyssey or Pilot motor - they are still DBW, with the single exhaust port, and a lot cheaper than a Type-S motor.
09-18-2016, 09:54 AM
#63
Instructor
Thread Starter
Yeah thanks for the info on the dual throttle body. Not too much info on this. I'll probably have look into the DBW set up even though that wasn't the direction I wanted to go initially. And the fascination? They're Hella sexy Hondata is now though, one day I might learn how to tune, but one thing at a time right now lol.
With the cams, I feel like I can sacrifice on the low side because like many people have pointed out, should I WOT from 1st, id probably end up spinning tires through 4th gear and no one wins. And it's not like I'm gonna lose so much power that I won't be able to move in first. I'm pretty sure it'll still have more moving power than the D series that's in the car now lol. If it helps move the power band up, it sounds like a good idea right now. Its like yungone said, torque is gonna be my new enemy, so a little less is better I guess. The car is gonna be around 2700 lbs after the swap. That's still a good 700lb difference between it and a stock TL and still "light". It should still move with ease.
I chose the j32a2 block because I didn't necessarily want to use the block, but instead wanted to make sure I'd be able to use the heads without modification. It just seems in terms of power its better. Coming from the 4 banger life, I've seen some friends with stupid ideas and slap heads onto different blocks that eventually blew up because coolant passages didn't line up, oil passages didn't line up, heads had a larger diameter than the block etc. Now that's when you really Frankenstein lol. I think that's a far cry from than switching out internals that will fit without modification.
And that pretty much leaves me with doing what yungone had initially said to do anyways, the shawd j37 intake swap with DBW throttle body. This solves two things, one, it clears the requirement for hondata as its DBW, and two, it makes more power AND moves the power band up.
The remaining problem is now, is the stock tb big enough to support the engine without becoming a choke point. I don't need a cam that allows me to review higher for more power if the power can't be created because the engines intake is the choking it. I've heard of three zdx tb conversion but don't know if that cost is worth the gain.
Mdx motor could be an option but like I said, I definitely want to use the j32a2 heads. They seem to perform better than the single exhaust port heads with similar mods. Plus, the engine does have mdx parts. Rods and crank with be sourced from an 02-03 mdx engine.
Hondata is now though, one day I might learn how to tune, but one thing at a time right now lol.With the cams, I feel like I can sacrifice on the low side because like many people have pointed out, should I WOT from 1st, id probably end up spinning tires through 4th gear and no one wins. And it's not like I'm gonna lose so much power that I won't be able to move in first. I'm pretty sure it'll still have more moving power than the D series that's in the car now lol. If it helps move the power band up, it sounds like a good idea right now. Its like yungone said, torque is gonna be my new enemy, so a little less is better I guess. The car is gonna be around 2700 lbs after the swap. That's still a good 700lb difference between it and a stock TL and still "light". It should still move with ease.
I chose the j32a2 block because I didn't necessarily want to use the block, but instead wanted to make sure I'd be able to use the heads without modification. It just seems in terms of power its better. Coming from the 4 banger life, I've seen some friends with stupid ideas and slap heads onto different blocks that eventually blew up because coolant passages didn't line up, oil passages didn't line up, heads had a larger diameter than the block etc. Now that's when you really Frankenstein lol. I think that's a far cry from than switching out internals that will fit without modification.
And that pretty much leaves me with doing what yungone had initially said to do anyways, the shawd j37 intake swap with DBW throttle body. This solves two things, one, it clears the requirement for hondata as its DBW, and two, it makes more power AND moves the power band up.
The remaining problem is now, is the stock tb big enough to support the engine without becoming a choke point. I don't need a cam that allows me to review higher for more power if the power can't be created because the engines intake is the choking it. I've heard of three zdx tb conversion but don't know if that cost is worth the gain.
Mdx motor could be an option but like I said, I definitely want to use the j32a2 heads. They seem to perform better than the single exhaust port heads with similar mods. Plus, the engine does have mdx parts. Rods and crank with be sourced from an 02-03 mdx engine.
09-18-2016, 11:43 AM
#64
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
J32A2 and J35A3 (01-02 MDX) share the same heads. They're nearly identical motors minus displacement/cams.
In my opinion, swap in a J32A2 or J35A3, get a nice set of long tube headers made, fat intake and port/polish runners/IM. After that find a tuning solution that you want and go to town.
No point in wasting your money building a motor when these motors are pretty stout in stock form. Your thinking way to into it.
In my opinion, swap in a J32A2 or J35A3, get a nice set of long tube headers made, fat intake and port/polish runners/IM. After that find a tuning solution that you want and go to town.
No point in wasting your money building a motor when these motors are pretty stout in stock form. Your thinking way to into it.
The following users liked this post:
gnuts (09-19-2016)
09-18-2016, 03:18 PM
#65
Yeah thanks for the info on the dual throttle body. Not too much info on this. I'll probably have look into the DBW set up even though that wasn't the direction I wanted to go initially. And the fascination? They're Hella sexy Hondata is now though, one day I might learn how to tune, but one thing at a time right now lol.
With the cams, I feel like I can sacrifice on the low side because like many people have pointed out, should I WOT from 1st, id probably end up spinning tires through 4th gear and no one wins. And it's not like I'm gonna lose so much power that I won't be able to move in first. I'm pretty sure it'll still have more moving power than the D series that's in the car now lol. If it helps move the power band up, it sounds like a good idea right now. Its like yungone said, torque is gonna be my new enemy, so a little less is better I guess. The car is gonna be around 2700 lbs after the swap. That's still a good 700lb difference between it and a stock TL and still "light". It should still move with ease.
I chose the j32a2 block because I didn't necessarily want to use the block, but instead wanted to make sure I'd be able to use the heads without modification. It just seems in terms of power its better. Coming from the 4 banger life, I've seen some friends with stupid ideas and slap heads onto different blocks that eventually blew up because coolant passages didn't line up, oil passages didn't line up, heads had a larger diameter than the block etc. Now that's when you really Frankenstein lol. I think that's a far cry from than switching out internals that will fit without modification.
And that pretty much leaves me with doing what yungone had initially said to do anyways, the shawd j37 intake swap with DBW throttle body. This solves two things, one, it clears the requirement for hondata as its DBW, and two, it makes more power AND moves the power band up.
The remaining problem is now, is the stock tb big enough to support the engine without becoming a choke point. I don't need a cam that allows me to review higher for more power if the power can't be created because the engines intake is the choking it. I've heard of three zdx tb conversion but don't know if that cost is worth the gain.
Mdx motor could be an option but like I said, I definitely want to use the j32a2 heads. They seem to perform better than the single exhaust port heads with similar mods. Plus, the engine does have mdx parts. Rods and crank with be sourced from an 02-03 mdx engine.
Hondata is now though, one day I might learn how to tune, but one thing at a time right now lol.With the cams, I feel like I can sacrifice on the low side because like many people have pointed out, should I WOT from 1st, id probably end up spinning tires through 4th gear and no one wins. And it's not like I'm gonna lose so much power that I won't be able to move in first. I'm pretty sure it'll still have more moving power than the D series that's in the car now lol. If it helps move the power band up, it sounds like a good idea right now. Its like yungone said, torque is gonna be my new enemy, so a little less is better I guess. The car is gonna be around 2700 lbs after the swap. That's still a good 700lb difference between it and a stock TL and still "light". It should still move with ease.
I chose the j32a2 block because I didn't necessarily want to use the block, but instead wanted to make sure I'd be able to use the heads without modification. It just seems in terms of power its better. Coming from the 4 banger life, I've seen some friends with stupid ideas and slap heads onto different blocks that eventually blew up because coolant passages didn't line up, oil passages didn't line up, heads had a larger diameter than the block etc. Now that's when you really Frankenstein lol. I think that's a far cry from than switching out internals that will fit without modification.
And that pretty much leaves me with doing what yungone had initially said to do anyways, the shawd j37 intake swap with DBW throttle body. This solves two things, one, it clears the requirement for hondata as its DBW, and two, it makes more power AND moves the power band up.
The remaining problem is now, is the stock tb big enough to support the engine without becoming a choke point. I don't need a cam that allows me to review higher for more power if the power can't be created because the engines intake is the choking it. I've heard of three zdx tb conversion but don't know if that cost is worth the gain.
Mdx motor could be an option but like I said, I definitely want to use the j32a2 heads. They seem to perform better than the single exhaust port heads with similar mods. Plus, the engine does have mdx parts. Rods and crank with be sourced from an 02-03 mdx engine.
The only person I know that has run the A2 heads on an A3 block is Gerzand, and it requires welding and redrilling as you said, for coolant and oil ports I believe. Unfortunately, I've not found the information on the net publicly as to what EXACTLY needs to be done.
Cliffs Notes:
want to use an A2 type engine - standalone ECU is needed - no Hondata
Want to use Hondata - single port exhaust engine needed or big time mods for A2
If I misread what you meant, my apologies.
09-18-2016, 06:04 PM
#66
Instructor
Thread Starter
Ugh...lol.
I had to recheck again, and I got nothing lmao. It looks like I might have to run stock ecu or a different engine at this point.
Maybe yungone can elaborate on this thread i found.
What would be your perfect all motor setup?
Ugh. Let's be smart guys, let's do this!
I had to recheck again, and I got nothing lmao. It looks like I might have to run stock ecu or a different engine at this point.
Maybe yungone can elaborate on this thread i found.
What would be your perfect all motor setup?
Ugh. Let's be smart guys, let's do this!
09-18-2016, 11:35 PM
#67
The only person I know that has run the A2 heads on an A3 block is Gerzand, and it requires welding and redrilling as you said, for coolant and oil ports I believe. Unfortunately, I've not found the information on the net publicly as to what EXACTLY needs to be done.
Location of oil drain holes:
Front bank- third hole back from timing belt side of motor
Rear bank- second hole back from timing belt side of motor
Again, it's the only one of the four holes that's oval in shape.
Welding the drain hole and then having the deck lightly resurfaced will provide best results.
09-19-2016, 03:08 AM
#68
Instructor
Thread Starter
I think I need to get in touch with Don from RPM systems or API so they can tell me what I need to do with the ecu/wiring. This is what I was going to do in the first place. Imo money well spent. On the rpm systems site it pretty much says, just send us the donor j harness and the civic harness in your car. They can integrate it then.
It appears that the j32a2 if swapped can't be stroked because unless I run aem fic, it'll totally have a lot of codes thrown off and probably run shitty.
Im not sure how great j32a2s run at higher power with the stock ecu. 300whp on the stock ecu? Idk...
A j35a3 on the other hand does have hondata support I believe but you need a 07-08 tl ecu with matching hondata and adapter for 04-05 tls, might be just for a civic. I mean...how do you guys tune? I'd prefer to run hondata if possible because I know Vit etunes, something I am interested in, because it's cheap and I've heard nothing but good things from people about him.
Damn, might think of going the aem route if hondata can't support what I want. But who etunes aem?
It appears that the j32a2 if swapped can't be stroked because unless I run aem fic, it'll totally have a lot of codes thrown off and probably run shitty.
Im not sure how great j32a2s run at higher power with the stock ecu. 300whp on the stock ecu? Idk...
A j35a3 on the other hand does have hondata support I believe but you need a 07-08 tl ecu with matching hondata and adapter for 04-05 tls, might be just for a civic. I mean...how do you guys tune? I'd prefer to run hondata if possible because I know Vit etunes, something I am interested in, because it's cheap and I've heard nothing but good things from people about him.
Damn, might think of going the aem route if hondata can't support what I want. But who etunes aem?
09-19-2016, 10:05 AM
#69
Three Wheelin'
iTrader: (3)
An engine can only use as much air as it can suck in, or what is forced in. I think the dual TB looks cool, but is not cost effective at all. Gerzand has Rotrex supercharger, so he's not dependent on what the engine can suck on its own. If I recall, NVA-AV6/Paul has or had an M90 supercharger on his, so another forced induction setup.
I admire your determination on grabbing 9 million different ideas, but there is a principle (in life, cars, anything really) called KISS. Keep it simple stupid. You see, to go off on tangents for the sake of it. I can tell you that Andy/Gerzand has already said that the Hondata does NOT like the dual TB, and he is switching to an AEM soon which will resolve it. If you are planning on using a Hondata, don't do the dual TB. But if you aren't planning on using DBW, you aren't planning on using a Hondata. In that case, you could use the dual TB with an AEM, but now expect to add a LOT of cost for the AEM and custom dual TB, for very little return in power.
Back to cams - remember that EVERY cam is a compromise. There is no such thing as a cam that will make more power at one end without sacrificing on the other. Even with the mighty VTEC, yo. If you don't care that you're moving your power band up because you won't go to redline, then you're gonna have a slower car than if you kept the stock cams. If you don't go WOT, it's pointless to have those big cams, as VTEC engagement is also determined partially by load.
If you do end up going with an A2 motor so you don't have to mess with the DBW, either you won't do any tuning with a stock ECU or you will need a standalone. Standalone means less drivability and less livability, unless you know how to tune, or have a tuner that will invest a LOT of time in things that don't add a lick of power. Tuning for power is quick and easy. Tuning for drivability is not.
If you go with an A3 motor, you need a Hondata to tune it, but your're back to your no dual TB (I still dont see the fascination with that) and figuring out the DBW. If you want a 3.5L, maybe consider the Odyssey or Pilot motor - they are still DBW, with the single exhaust port, and a lot cheaper than a Type-S motor.
I admire your determination on grabbing 9 million different ideas, but there is a principle (in life, cars, anything really) called KISS. Keep it simple stupid. You see, to go off on tangents for the sake of it. I can tell you that Andy/Gerzand has already said that the Hondata does NOT like the dual TB, and he is switching to an AEM soon which will resolve it. If you are planning on using a Hondata, don't do the dual TB. But if you aren't planning on using DBW, you aren't planning on using a Hondata. In that case, you could use the dual TB with an AEM, but now expect to add a LOT of cost for the AEM and custom dual TB, for very little return in power.
Back to cams - remember that EVERY cam is a compromise. There is no such thing as a cam that will make more power at one end without sacrificing on the other. Even with the mighty VTEC, yo. If you don't care that you're moving your power band up because you won't go to redline, then you're gonna have a slower car than if you kept the stock cams. If you don't go WOT, it's pointless to have those big cams, as VTEC engagement is also determined partially by load.
If you do end up going with an A2 motor so you don't have to mess with the DBW, either you won't do any tuning with a stock ECU or you will need a standalone. Standalone means less drivability and less livability, unless you know how to tune, or have a tuner that will invest a LOT of time in things that don't add a lick of power. Tuning for power is quick and easy. Tuning for drivability is not.
If you go with an A3 motor, you need a Hondata to tune it, but your're back to your no dual TB (I still dont see the fascination with that) and figuring out the DBW. If you want a 3.5L, maybe consider the Odyssey or Pilot motor - they are still DBW, with the single exhaust port, and a lot cheaper than a Type-S motor.
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gerzand (09-19-2016)
09-19-2016, 11:40 AM
#71
Burning Brakes
I think I need to get in touch with Don from RPM systems or API so they can tell me what I need to do with the ecu/wiring. This is what I was going to do in the first place. Imo money well spent. On the rpm systems site it pretty much says, just send us the donor j harness and the civic harness in your car. They can integrate it then.
It appears that the j32a2 if swapped can't be stroked because unless I run aem fic, it'll totally have a lot of codes thrown off and probably run shitty.
Im not sure how great j32a2s run at higher power with the stock ecu. 300whp on the stock ecu? Idk...
A j35a3 on the other hand does have hondata support I believe but you need a 07-08 tl ecu with matching hondata and adapter for 04-05 tls, might be just for a civic. I mean...how do you guys tune? I'd prefer to run hondata if possible because I know Vit etunes, something I am interested in, because it's cheap and I've heard nothing but good things from people about him.
Damn, might think of going the aem route if hondata can't support what I want. But who etunes aem?
It appears that the j32a2 if swapped can't be stroked because unless I run aem fic, it'll totally have a lot of codes thrown off and probably run shitty.
Im not sure how great j32a2s run at higher power with the stock ecu. 300whp on the stock ecu? Idk...
A j35a3 on the other hand does have hondata support I believe but you need a 07-08 tl ecu with matching hondata and adapter for 04-05 tls, might be just for a civic. I mean...how do you guys tune? I'd prefer to run hondata if possible because I know Vit etunes, something I am interested in, because it's cheap and I've heard nothing but good things from people about him.
Damn, might think of going the aem route if hondata can't support what I want. But who etunes aem?
Idk if you missed my link or even bothered looking at it, but it's for a stock J32A2 in a Civic road course car running 11.6 @ 116mph, weight: 2100 lbs.
Affordable Speed - Coopers J-Swapped Civic ? tracktuned
If you want torque swap in an 5.3L LS4 from a FWD Impala SS, lol
LS swap all the things.King Motorsports (your in WI) tunes AEM stuff, no etunes
09-19-2016, 12:58 PM
#72
Instructor
Thread Starter
550 for a harness? I know right? Hell yeah I'm gonna take that deal lol. That's a steal!
And Gerzand! I'd never thought I'd get to see you reply because it seemed like you had honestly left. I'm glad to see that you've resolved the issues with dual throttle body. I'd imagine now your car is a bigger beast than they already were. I'll probably be PMing you shortly. It seems like everyone doesn't like to share their secrets with the public lol.
6 speed Gerco, I read the link lol. I think that's pretty sweet what they've done with that civic. The set up is almost exactly like mine, we'll future set up, the thing is, I wish for far more power though lol. I know that civic is not slow, 11.8 is Hella fast, but he probably set his suspension and had huge slicks up front to run it. I'm just gonna be "street tires " all day, toyo ra-1s, lmao.
And Gerzand! I'd never thought I'd get to see you reply because it seemed like you had honestly left. I'm glad to see that you've resolved the issues with dual throttle body. I'd imagine now your car is a bigger beast than they already were. I'll probably be PMing you shortly. It seems like everyone doesn't like to share their secrets with the public lol.
6 speed Gerco, I read the link lol. I think that's pretty sweet what they've done with that civic. The set up is almost exactly like mine, we'll future set up, the thing is, I wish for far more power though lol. I know that civic is not slow, 11.8 is Hella fast, but he probably set his suspension and had huge slicks up front to run it. I'm just gonna be "street tires " all day, toyo ra-1s, lmao.
09-19-2016, 01:58 PM
#73
3.5 psi
iTrader: (1)
A few of us have mentioned this but I don't think you read it. The engine components you listed are essentially a J35A3 from the 01-02 MDX. The heads are nearly identical to the CL-S. You could deck the head to raise the compression back up but just use that engine and throw in the valve upgrades you mentioned. Also the 03 CL-S manual trans all had LSD.
09-19-2016, 03:53 PM
#75
Instructor
Thread Starter
Gnuts, you guys did mention it, that's why I compiled the collect information into a list of things I wanted
Plan plan plan. That's what I'm doing.
The j35a3 heads are similar, but like people have said, its similar but not the same. I wanted j32a2 heads because theyre better but unless I modify the head, looks like I'll have to stick to a single port head.
I'm currently debating this with myself and my wallet lol
Plan plan plan. That's what I'm doing.
The j35a3 heads are similar, but like people have said, its similar but not the same. I wanted j32a2 heads because theyre better but unless I modify the head, looks like I'll have to stick to a single port head.
I'm currently debating this with myself and my wallet lol
09-19-2016, 06:22 PM
#77
Instructor
Thread Starter
I debated going 3.6, but for the cost, it wasnt very efficient vs going with just the mdx rods and crank.
I don't want to use the single port heads lol, that's why I tried pretty adamantly to stick to the j32a2 block/head. The problem with this route is tuning through aem or megasquirt and that itself costs more money and time than running hondata.
So now I have to decide, the engine I want, may produce more power but will cost more, or an engine I don't that will meet my needs and will be cheaper.
I don't want to use the single port heads lol, that's why I tried pretty adamantly to stick to the j32a2 block/head. The problem with this route is tuning through aem or megasquirt and that itself costs more money and time than running hondata.
So now I have to decide, the engine I want, may produce more power but will cost more, or an engine I don't that will meet my needs and will be cheaper.
09-19-2016, 08:17 PM
#78
Instructor
Thread Starter
I mean, like 800 bucks for hondata and a tune from vit. (J32a3)
Or.
Like 2,000+ bucks for aem and a dyno session with king motorsports. (J32a2)
This is the struggle.
I'll repeat again lol, the heads are similar but not the same. J32a3 (base TL) had the built in single port header thing and I believe the j35a8 (TL type s) has a different bellhousing and the MT 03cls and 04-08 transmissions do not bolt up. This engine does bolt into the 2010 MT TL tranny though, and again, that's spending unnecessary money.
So now, perhaps the idea is to stroke a j32a3 and hope the built in header doesn't rob me of too much power due to its seemingly like exhaust side limitations. I'm not sure what the compression will be without calculations but this engine already supposedly runs at 11.1:1 compression. Switching out for the 3.5 rods and pistons may cause a clearance problem or ran pretty high compression. After stroking the j32a2 you go from 10.5 to 11.3:1 compression. So I'm assuming this will be around 12:1. Too high for a daily?
Or.
Like 2,000+ bucks for aem and a dyno session with king motorsports. (J32a2)
This is the struggle.
I'll repeat again lol, the heads are similar but not the same. J32a3 (base TL) had the built in single port header thing and I believe the j35a8 (TL type s) has a different bellhousing and the MT 03cls and 04-08 transmissions do not bolt up. This engine does bolt into the 2010 MT TL tranny though, and again, that's spending unnecessary money.
So now, perhaps the idea is to stroke a j32a3 and hope the built in header doesn't rob me of too much power due to its seemingly like exhaust side limitations. I'm not sure what the compression will be without calculations but this engine already supposedly runs at 11.1:1 compression. Switching out for the 3.5 rods and pistons may cause a clearance problem or ran pretty high compression. After stroking the j32a2 you go from 10.5 to 11.3:1 compression. So I'm assuming this will be around 12:1. Too high for a daily?
09-19-2016, 08:24 PM
#79
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
I think your confusing the J35A3 with the J32A3.
J35A3 is a multiport head, where the J32A3 is a single port
Since your real stuck on the J32A2 heads, I'd still buy a J35A3 for the short block & grab a pair of J32A2 heads for pretty damn cheap. Less BS tearing a motor down to get the same outcome.
If you were local I could hook you up, have a decent inventory
J35A3 is a multiport head, where the J32A3 is a single port
Since your real stuck on the J32A2 heads, I'd still buy a J35A3 for the short block & grab a pair of J32A2 heads for pretty damn cheap. Less BS tearing a motor down to get the same outcome.
If you were local I could hook you up, have a decent inventory
09-19-2016, 08:44 PM
#80
Jeff
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Port City, New Brunswick Canada
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I dont know any girl that would want to drive a old ass uncomfortable honda with a j series swap with probably all kinds of kinks/rattles etc putting down that kind of power for a DAILY?!
Id love to meet her though
Id love to meet her though