LOL I dunno - some guys tuned EFI that way. Back in the EEC-IV days, guys would set the base timing on the distributor, then lock the timing in the map to 32 degrees. Where? Everywhere! Why not - they were told that "they should run 32 degrees of timing" so they did! lol.

Did it work? Sure, for a drag car - but driveability was poop. Old school EFI was basically guys replacing the advance spring in the distributor with a chart that said a number, and many still use that methodology, cause "it's good enough."

I'm not bashing Matt here, I promise, but he has a tendency to try and offer 'advice' that is not really helpful in a real world sense, and also to blatantly call something he doesn't like as wrong. Things can be different, and not his preferred method but not always flat out wrong. Is he knowledgeable? Sure. Has good info to contribute? Sure. Is that info always valid enough to act on? Nah. But that aside, everyone should take EVERYONE's advice on the internet with as much credit as it cost them.

Let's not have AccordFlex's thread go down the crapper with back and forth garbage - move this to the detonation thread.

 

Yes. What if someone listened to the other post where your friend stated forged Pistons "produce" knock of a different frequency than stock Pistons. It's dangerous advice and piston material has nothing to do with knock frequency. Interesting you chose to cut that out but it's expected. You don't seem to be offended by your friends nonsense, only by my attempt to explain what you guys are doing wrong.

You guys are running way too little timing. Just about every J that's been boosted has blown up. Those that haven't are relatively new builds that haven't had time to blow. I've never heard of running 3-4 degrees at full throttle. That's a recipe for disaster. 14 degrees is the minimum I would ever run under full throttle. Notice I did not say maximum. Below that you're setting yourself up for failure over time with super high EGTs. As I also said, if you have to lower boost or add octane to run a decent amount of timing then so be it, you might have the first reliable boosted J.

 

Who said to run a static 32 degrees? Last I checked we weren't in the stone age with EEC-IV Ford crap. Last I checked 14 degrees is way different than 32 degrees and that advice is for a street car on pump gas. Below 14 degrees, EGT under full throttle, full boost is just too low for everyday operation. Notice, I did not say to run 14 degrees I said not to go below 14 degrees and I offered the reasons why.
Um... Saying that forged pistons change the knock frequency is flat out wrong. It's not a grey area, it's fictional, it does not exist. I had to say something or people are going to be looking down the wrong path when using forged pistons. The real world is where I've gotten my knowledge. It's more than I can say for the google experts you choose to believe. Especially the one that has his own website and refers to his own website as "proof" he's right without acknowledging it's his website, huh flexer... You don't care how incredibly wrong your friends' info is, you only care about attempting to invalidate me or to turn the thread upside down so that I can no longer speak.
Which info is not valid enough to act on, be specific.

Everyone is blowing up FI Js. Maybe it's time to take a step back and listen to someone who was not educated by google. I watched you guys offer incredibly HORRIBLE advice in the rear turbo thread and I stayed out of it. I was just shaking my head that people actually believe the three of you. You guys are in 1st grade when it comes to FI. Still, I watched and did not post. That engine lasted what, a week? Congrats, I think that's the quickest a forged J has ever been killed.
I only offered advice that you guys continue to overlook. You guys want to make it personal as always. Take your own advice if you don't want the thread going down the crapper. Keep your egos in check and realize that some people have more experience than all three of you combined and this might go a little smoother.

As an example of what I'm talking about, there's been no attempt to invalidate what I said about forged pistons having no effect on the knock frequency. This is what got you guys so riled up but you went off on tangents, attacking me personally, running on about some old Ford crap, etc, because you can't prove me wrong.

So how about you and your friends stop the personal attacks and attempt to learn something.

 

I suggest you have your tune checked out by Dom. My map started to have knock in 2nd gear in 90+ weather. That's the first time ever that my car has knocked besides when it was getting it tuned both by Dom and Innovate motor work.

 

I would totally trust that guy to tune. He seems to get it. I would be interested to know what kind of changes need to be made.

 

did another datalog today and my car knocked in 3rd around 3500-3900 and in 4th. Looks like cylinder 4 hates me. Its probably due to the hot weather and 100% humidity.

Definitely let him take a look at one of your datalog just to be safe

 

Sigh...I was using the Ford as an example of how information gets tossed around and then misused. The same as don't go below 14 degrees of timing. You elaborated above, but still only said full boost. I think that is a bit of a gray area simply because there are different measurements - how much is full boost? 5psi? 10psi? What size turbo? 20lb/min or 80lb/min? That's why I say it's only vaguely helpful information.

I never said I agreed with either of you. I'll be honest and say I don't know enough about knock detection principles in general to say one way or the other. I read both examples, do my own investigations, and make a determination for myself. For what it's worth - if the J engine is unreliable in detecting knock, the next step would be determining if it is the knock sensor or the ecu's interpretation, right? The J&S uses the factory knock sensor, so if the sensor is not correct, there's still a chance for knock, right? My understanding agrees with yours - that bore is the largest determinant of knock fequency, but the only TRUE way is to induce knock and measure. Not the most fun of course. So, for extra credit, what frequency would a rotary use? lol

Just like as above - the 14 degrees of timing. While I can reasonably decipher your intent, not everyone can. And even then, I'm still a bit confused since you generalized to 'full boost'. Just as you said, but later updated yourself, you said the rear mounted turbo's wastegate setup was 'incorrect'. You referenced a 422CID big block as if that was the ONLY possible correct way to setup a rear mount turbo wastegate. While I'm all for new/different - there's more than one way to skin a cat. In your example, you had measurable backpressure - in maddog's we don't know if there was. Can we assume there was? Sure, but I'd also attribute some of that to the stock J pipe.

The three of you? Me? Please elaborate as to the advice that I've given that is bad. Personally, my philosophy is similar to yours - lower CR, stay out of knock (ideally with enough octane), and monitor for knock. Those are the 3 things I've repeated, and I'm pretty sure they align with most of what you say. I know Utah went High compression - I was against it. In EVERY scenario I've recommended an aftermarket knock detection - I've yet to see anyone use one. I'm also a fan of E85 - you're unlikely to knock using that, plus you get the cooling benefits. Terrible mileage yes, but we're going for performance. What is the horrible advice that I've given? Perhaps you could say that I believe a stock bottom end can survive with 400+WHP if done properly...There's enough A2s doing it - these failures are all on the single ports.

Matt - right here is where people stop listening to you. You come off as a REALLY intelligent, and probably personable, and nice guy. UNTIL something just sets you off and you get a major attitude. Why? Can you not just have a civil conversation? Especially with regards to Robert and flexxer, you just let loose. It's like they scratched your car years ago or something and you have a vendetta. I just don't get it. Take a step back, breathe, and just converse.

Just for fun, here's your ranting knock post that's been reformatted to perhaps not sound so angry - yours:

Revised -

Robert, I disagree with your explanation of knock detection based on piston design, or even block material.

In every example that I've seen, knock frequency is almost the same between a cast iron block and aluminum block, the materials used have little effect much less forged vs cast. Pistons are a non factor. Cylinder bore diameter has more of an effect on knock frequency than almost anything else and that's the usual reason for factory systems to have a range built into them along with location in the block.

To understand better, detonation sends a shockwave through the block that the block mounted knock sensor picks up. The pistons don't generate the frequency or how it travels through the block. The Pistons don't generate the noise, the shockwave in the block does.

As it stands it looks like knock detection is not always reliable in the J and there's some evidence of preignition from what I've seen so at this point the most reliable tune is the safe tune that never allows a single knock count under any condition. Imo, a large dose of meth or 100 octane should be used in any FI stock compression J no matter how low the boost is and no matter if the bottom end is forged or not. Without it, it appears that too little timing is being run, too low whether it's detonating or not, which will lead to preignition and engine failure. I would never want to trade detonation for preignition by backing off the timing so far. Really, a large part of the fault goes to the tuners.

Let's keep in mind that preignition is invisible to the knock sensor. You can't see it. The only way to know it's happening besides a blown engine is to watch EGT drop suddenly and rapidly. With the extremely high percentage of blown Js around here, nearing 100%, perhaps a different approach is warranted. Watch knock but also watch EGTs and give it some timing, at least 14 degrees under full boost (depending on the amount of boot and size turbo). If it still knocks, more octane/less boost/less compression or some combination is needed. Something has to give eventually, besides the engines.

Based on my experience, I would expect monitoring EGT, many will see a rapid drop in temp at full boost. I would guarantee that anyone who takes these precautions will have the first dead ass reliable daily driver 500hp 100,000 mile TL.

 

this is the update that no one likes to hear...

trans is blown. I was driving it to get gas while my drill was recharging and while I was out i started hearing a noise. You ever get a spoon caught in the garbage disposal? Yea, that noise. I was barely getting on it, not sure what happened but it did.

Almost finished getting rebuilt right now. I could not find any more Mfactory 3/4th gears so im kinda mad about that. They said they would make another run of them if I got 10 people or more interested in a group buy... so I may be setting something up for that.

Its near impossible to find a 6MT Type-S trans used in good condition with good miles so I purchased a 3.5L accord trans with 0 miles. Swapping over the LSD, the VSS, the main shaft and the final drive. Id like to thank Andy for all his help with addressing this problem. He also hooked me up with some stiff 94a engine mount inserts.

Should have the car back in a couple days. Just waiting for the trans parts to be all swapped over.

Also got an electronic exhaust cutout installed and its throwing the tune way off. Im experiencing fuel cut at 10lbs (what my tune is set for). My tune is normally set to 8lbs so its surging when the valve is open. I also installed a lot of heat shielding parts like a nice turbo blanket, new heat wrap for lower down pipe, heat wrapping for wires and clutch lines (my clutch lines are getting super hot due to how close the manifolds are.).

Lastly I did a modified ultimate cooling mod. I kept the cowl, however I cut most of the walled part out of it which blocks all of the air flow.

I will post lost of pics when I get the car back. Sorry for the lack of updates!

 

I also had a methanol flooding problem. The ground wire came off of its grounding point and while I was doing some highway driving, something surged and left the solenoid and injectors to open. Got the car pulled over immediately, saw the wire was loose. Started the car back up a few times and it ran better and better each time. Let it idle for 20 minutes or so and its all burnt off and running just fine.

Glad I caught it so quickly otherwise i would have hydro locked the engine with methanol. I got the stiffer engine mount inserts so there was less play with the engine at WOT and in between gear shifting. I currently have the 62a mounts, i believe. I think this caused the solenoid to come loose.

Just wanted to post up my problems along with the build so people have an idea of things they may run into.

 

what kit do you have? This is why I recommend the aquamist one. There are failsafe on it

 

I have the Snow stage 3 dual injection with controller.

 

wow, good luck fixing everything man.

 

I'm surprised they sold all of them but that's their normal run size and I think there was only 1 run done.

Do you have your meth spray on a spacer? I put mine a little further back and tilted the charge pipe so it tilts down so if I have a problem like that, it'll flow down to the intercooler instead of going into the engine.

Not optimal for distribution but safer based on the simplicity of the system and lack of failsafe circuitry.

 

I was wondering who's car that was on the lift a couple weeks ago. I inquired about your car because of the turbo setup and was told it had a blown tranny. Curtis is good people and Asian Imports does great work. I had them install my Tein suspension earlier this summer.

 

No spacer really, and they sit on the bottom part of the bend of the intake piping so luckily it will drain to the intercooler if that happens as well.

And yea, 1 run was ever made, and I was just a month or two too late

Heard there are some other solutions in the works for gears and should hopefully be finished next year sometime. So I just need to not break it until then haha

Curtis is a real good dude. He does great work and super professional.

My car is running great now.

 

More updates on the car as well. Trans is back in. We used the Accord 3.5L trans, and swapped over my final drive, LSD, main shaft, and speed sensors and the new trans drives like a dream. Big thanks to Andy.

1- New tune at Innovative Motorworks in Carlisle, PA. Derrick is the best I could ask for. Highly recommend him. The car is running great now. The Turbo spools 800 rpm quicker now with the cutout and brought up the low end torque curve by 75lbs as well when the turbo spools.





2- I also added a new set of wheels to the car. They are Weds Kranze Bazreia 18x9.5+14/18 wrapped in Continental Extreme Contact 265/40s

Faces are brushed gunmetal with a tinted clear finish. Weds chrome hardware, with Polished 4" lips, and polished barrels. Work red extended lug nuts. The wheels were completely broken down, de-chromed (i hate chrome), sand blasted, all dings and divots filled and refinished



3-Ive also decided to do the MDX jewel eye projector retrofit... Lots of plans for this big project over the winter.

 

Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes! LOL

 

Welp, this might take the crown for my favorite TL build shortly. Function AND form. Love that you went with a typically VIP wheel and threw it on a monster of a performance build!

Also looking at your car makes me want the Versus bumper so much haha. It just makes the whole package look that much more mean.

 

Nice Work! It Looks Awesome!

 

 

Thanks everyone, I appreciate it. Definitely been a ton of time and work put into this thing thats for sure. Definitely worth it though.

And I agree about the versus bumper. I saw it for sale like 3 years ago and i had to buy it because i knew i was going to turbo the car. I basically just wanted it to show off the intercooler haha.

And the wheels are aggressive but nothing too much. I wanted to be able to have some lip, but also have some meaty tires. Couldnt be happier with the way they turned out.

 

Just went through the entire build thread and everything was executed perfectly!

 

part of me is glad this thread got back on track because we get to see a boosted TL back on the road putting down good numbers.

The other part of me wishes I could forever read new int4rw3bz arguments that ILC has with people.

 

Wanted to Post up a quick update on the car. Been a long time since I have updated this post.

Some new things ive done are a Ktuned shifter and race bushings, QTP exhaust cutout, Recaro SR3 Top Gun edition seats with Wedge Brackets (show seats) and Corbeau suede seats (for normal driving), NRG quick release steering wheel, and Corbeau 5pt harnesses.

Some things I have in the works right now... Having Jason Schmuck at Schmuck Built doing a lot of custom fabrication on the car. Ill be having him do a custom fitted oil catch can with larger feed lines directly on the valve covers, new aluminum radiator with slim fams, larger core intercoolers, P2R Holley EFI intake manifold, new intercooler to intake piping for the manifold and to cut down on some of the silicon couplers and doing all vband setup for strength and more boost, new exhaust manifolds to tighten up some of the bends and flow, new 3" exhaust with a new cutout as well.

After the fab work is done, I will be rebuilding the engine with some upgraded internals. Im still on completely stock internals making about 450whp 420wtq on only 8lbs. The car was spiking to about 9.7lbs the other day and was much faster. I would guess somewhere in the 485whp territory.

I will post up some pics as soon as I have them for the upcoming work and current pics shortly of the mods that have been installed.

 

good to know you are still going strong.

 

Nice to see your still working on it. I'm waiting for it to stop flooding in Cali so I can drive my car.

 

Sub'd. I may go turbo when im done with college, gonna need all the advice i can get.

 

Thanks everyone! Still ging strong on this build, just finding the time to keep working on it is the tough part haha. I have a few other car projects ive been working on as well. 91 Honda Beat, 92 Suzuki Cappuccino and a 73 Cadillac Eldorado have been sucking up my resources haha.

I also sourced a set of MFactory 3rd/4th gear sets and they should be here within a week or two

 

Not a problem man! i follow this car on IG and it is inspiring! im always in MD too, i used to run heavy with the nissan maxima crew, NOS, boosted and N/A guys. ill be out there for the MDMAX annual Bbq, im unsure of the location but usually when im down there, im in Upper Marlboro

 

have very deep pockets. Very

 

Man yeah I can imagine. Whenever I browse through these ultra high HP builds with so much done it seems like the OP/owner is never done...and there's always something that needs adding or improving or fixing.

Definitely a very fun endeavor if your wallet can take it.

Just out of curiosity, what should one expect to set aide, dollar wise, if one wants to do a high HP/FI build on a 3G TL platform? (ie, at least 400+hp....)

 

6k for just the turbo build since its all custom, 1-1.5k for hondata/tuning depending on year. 07-08 guys have it easier, and extra 2k backup for random stuff.

 

Dang...ok so at least 10k set aside. I would imagine the transmission would also need to be beefed up/customized since I cannot imagine stock 6MT/clutch being able to handle that much hp (potentially almost double the stock hp) which I assume should safely set aside 5k(?) for that (just in case). Of course other mods (wheels, tires, front end body work modding as needed to fit hardware if needed, etc...)

So depending on the cost of the base car....it may not be terrible if you want something very unique and can handle 20-30k in total cost. I think a good way to go may be to find a super cheap/beat up TL and then transforming it (though this may be more costly too if interior/maintenance/etc. needs to be done....)

I was PMing with another AZIner who has a supercharger on his 3G TL and since I'm still paying off student loans I'll keep my TL a commuter/beater but future I'll definitely fix it up cosmetically but also potentially consider this kind of build if time/money allows....

Thanks for the info!

 

I am running LuK stock clutch equivalent. Just don't launch the car and power shift and it will be okay. I spent way too much money on my car lol

 

The stock transmission will hold quite a bit of power if you do what Ken said and take it easy on the transmission. I have been running double stock hp for a long time and now closer to three times stock power levels with just a spec 3+ clutch disc and LW flywheel for transmission mods. If you can remove and replace the engine yourself, there can be a lot of savings on labor to keep build costs down. Street tires are also a nice way to protect the transmission, since they spin before you break axles and make slamming gears more dangerous to discourage abuse.

 

Interesting. Though with this kind of whp, it seems like a waste to "take it easy" too often. Hence my worry about needing to beef it up. Similar thing with street tires....of course it's good to not abuse it too much but imo if I wanted to spend so much on a high whp...might as well get as much supporting mods so that I can drive it like a high whp and not worry about blowing up the trans/axles/etc. IIRC, this OP int his thread had to replace a transmission/parts?

But in any event, yes I think labor will be a HUGE part of the cost and while I am a DIYer I am nowhere near the ability to do engine-out and doing fab work and other needed for a turbo/supercharging application.

Looks like very deep pockets indeed is needed if one is not as technically inclined.

But still very enjoyable to read these threads though and certainly makes for a very very unique TL! There's probably less than 100(?) of these 3G TLs that are boosted...

 

I drive the car hard like 10-20% of the time. The car is my daily sleeper. It sees boost everyday anywhere between 1-5psi. The car max is 9psi but I rarely have to use that much to get up to speed on the freeway. Only time when I got Wot is when I need to pass on a 2 lane road.

No one wants to run anymore as soon as the dump tube opens. The kid on the block with the sti won't look at me anymore. ;(

 

LOL nice.

So maybe my concern regarding the trans is a bit overblown. Obviously I will not WOT it at every stop sign/light/on-ramp but I think a 20% hard driving is appropriate and as you said...for certain situations it can be nice/fun/safe to go WOT.

So what you're saying is that with this kind of reasonable hoonage...that the stock MT is fine (with upgraded clutch of course.....)

I mean it is VERY nice to have this kind of ultra sleeper.....no one would know how much WHP it's packing if you keep the exterior relatively tame

 

nist7- the Jseries and other Honda manuals are pretty stout if you take care of them and shift them with respect. If you get into high TQ stuff then you will need to go the route of these guys and look at straight cut gear sets. The reason for straight cut gears is that they don't generate axial loads like the stock helical gears do. The axial load of the helical gear set under high TQ will surpass the designed loads of the transmission case and shafts and ultimately lead to failure.

A supercharger is a good gateway boost option for the TL , you can keep all your NA mods and it's a simpler install.

 

Most people don't understand how fast these car are at the HP levels we are running. Fully opening up 550 HP gets you to into tripple digits very quickly( 10 seconds) and can not be done very often due to space constrains. You don't need much help taking it easy, but rather have to find the balls to push the car to it full potential. You can't do stop light clutch drops because this car will spin the tires at full boost at 90-100 mph, 5 or 10 mph you are not touching boost without smoking the tires. Bert who was the first to push 650 HP killed his tranny from using a twin disc clutch and doing 80 mph clutch drops with modified M5's. I understand the concept of spending 50K on this turbo setup and wanting to get the most enjoyment from your money but this is not a 500 hp drag car with a 4 speed built for abuse. As far as the sleeper effect, it makes the car much more inconspicuous, but also makes running someone who has the power to keep up almost impossible. With high HP cars both parties need to be ready and know what to expect from the other car. Like Ken said above, by the time they hear the blowoff valve its too late, I'm in boost and you are looking at taillights. I used to work near a Mercedes dealer and would embarrass AMG driver on their test drives with the SC every day, not because my car was ridiculously fast but because they thought the TL was no match and once they hear the bower whine it was too late to catch up. Like to think I put a big dent in AMG sales in San Jose.