AccordFlex Turbo TL-S 6MT Build Thread-Updated 12/9/15 - Dyno/pics page 5
#42
Burning Brakes
iTrader: (1)
exciting to see all those parts just sitting there. I like car parts, lol. I would be going nuts if I were you right now
Do you have a timeframe on when you'll have everything installed?
Do you have a timeframe on when you'll have everything installed?
#43
Pro
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
you of all people know the feeling haha. They are just sitting there egging me on every time I look at it all. But realistic plans are to start the break down when it gets a bit colder. I will be attending First Class Fitment by Canibeat in Princeton, NJ on Oct 19th. After that happens I should have the wideband all ready and work will commence.
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i_love_cars (09-08-2013)
#45
Burning Brakes
iTrader: (3)
I know how it feels too, Ive had this supercharger sitting in the living room for a month, I just need a free weekend to install it... I shoulda done it last weekend but I went to a Clemson game instead haha. That turbo kit looks great, I want one sooo bad
#46
Pro
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Im gonna be getting a few things powdercoated but im not exactly sure on color yet. I know I want to do the valve colvers and the turbo housing. I was thinking of just doing them MRP like the car. Also wanna do the piping in gloss black to keep a stealth appearance on the kit. Got a decent amount of time until the kits ready so I will update on colors etc.
#47
tehLEGOman
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Good stuff.
#48
Beautiful car to the OP!! Best of luck with tuning and getting this turbo setup rolling. With the turbo and your current setup...your car is gonna be a monster/sleeper on the beltway.
I can't wait to see the results like everyone else. Hopefully you will have it complete by the Great Falls meet to show it off.
Great pics!
#49
Pro
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Just wanted to throw out a quick update.
ID1000 injectors are here, battery relocate box is ready to be installed. Just ordered a wide band/oil pressure sensors/gauges.
Also ordered the Versus front bumper, which has been shipped, to show off the intercooler a bit along with some Password JDM bumper quick release tabs for when I have to go down a ramp/driveway or drive over a twig. Dont wanna mess this bumper up at all.
I will post up some pictures here shortly when it all arrives
ID1000 injectors are here, battery relocate box is ready to be installed. Just ordered a wide band/oil pressure sensors/gauges.
Also ordered the Versus front bumper, which has been shipped, to show off the intercooler a bit along with some Password JDM bumper quick release tabs for when I have to go down a ramp/driveway or drive over a twig. Dont wanna mess this bumper up at all.
I will post up some pictures here shortly when it all arrives
#51
runnin a little boost
iTrader: (3)
Just wanted to throw out a quick update.
ID1000 injectors are here, battery relocate box is ready to be installed. Just ordered a wide band/oil pressure sensors/gauges.
Also ordered the Versus front bumper, which has been shipped, to show off the intercooler a bit along with some Password JDM bumper quick release tabs for when I have to go down a ramp/driveway or drive over a twig. Dont wanna mess this bumper up at all.
I will post up some pictures here shortly when it all arrives
ID1000 injectors are here, battery relocate box is ready to be installed. Just ordered a wide band/oil pressure sensors/gauges.
Also ordered the Versus front bumper, which has been shipped, to show off the intercooler a bit along with some Password JDM bumper quick release tabs for when I have to go down a ramp/driveway or drive over a twig. Dont wanna mess this bumper up at all.
I will post up some pictures here shortly when it all arrives
#52
Pro
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
I really wanted him to tune it especially because he is familiar with 6cl engines and boost on those nissan/bmw motors. They are different but similar applications, and he also knows FlashPro.
Here is the email from them...
Hi,
We shipped your item today so please see below details as you need to pick up at Greyhound Terminal.
Tracking # GLI3072284974
Terminal Phone #: 1 (301) 663-3311
Pick Up Address:
MARC TRAIN STATION
100 SE ST
FREDERICK, MD 21701
(Please double check address with your local Greyhound Terminal to make sure they have not move)
Please double check we have your correct information otherwise you have to contact Greyhound in a few days to update your information as they can only update it when your item is already in your local terminal.
Damage:
Even damage rarely happen during shipment as we pack the product really well but it could happen during transit such as due to weather condition, etc.
Please check the item and open the box if you see any damage sign on the outside box. You have to file claim on the spot if you get damage product as Greyhound will not take claim after you receive and sign in good conditions. You can refuse this item if it damage and inform us within 24 business hours by replying to this email.
Please let me know if you have any further questions, thank you.
Regards,
Peter
Versus Motorsport
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Hi speed (01-25-2014)
#55
Team Owner
Just wanted to throw out a quick update.
ID1000 injectors are here, battery relocate box is ready to be installed. Just ordered a wide band/oil pressure sensors/gauges.
Also ordered the Versus front bumper, which has been shipped, to show off the intercooler a bit along with some Password JDM bumper quick release tabs for when I have to go down a ramp/driveway or drive over a twig. Dont wanna mess this bumper up at all.
I will post up some pictures here shortly when it all arrives
ID1000 injectors are here, battery relocate box is ready to be installed. Just ordered a wide band/oil pressure sensors/gauges.
Also ordered the Versus front bumper, which has been shipped, to show off the intercooler a bit along with some Password JDM bumper quick release tabs for when I have to go down a ramp/driveway or drive over a twig. Dont wanna mess this bumper up at all.
I will post up some pictures here shortly when it all arrives
#58
Team Owner
By using the crank sensor to know which one is firing at the time and some basic logic since preignition is slightly before the plug fires while detonation usually occurs closer to the normal combustion event. In the early days of individual cylinder knock detection some manufacturers could only get it to work on the autos, the manuals could change rpm too quickly and screw it up. Individual cylinder misfire detection seems harder to me but they got that down quickly.
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AccordFlex (01-27-2014)
#61
Team Owner
I'm not familiar with the brands available for the TL but I've found that the visual ones don't always get your attention when you've got 500+hp and adrenaline flowing. If there's an audible one, get it. Mine is almost painful when it goes off but it will get your attention every time, to lift off the throttle.
The reason the driver needs to be alerted is the ECU can not pull enough timing or pull it quick enough to stop it once it starts when boosted. It's pretty much up to you. If you're lucky the ECU might buy you a second or two so you have time to lift.
I consider knock the most important thing to monitor because it's the only thing that can cause instant damage to the engine. We monitor AFR partially for tuning but mostly so it doesn't lean out and knock. We monitor boost so it doesn't go too high and cause knock.
If you have forged internals and you have a knock gauge, the sky is the limit. You can turn the boost up as high as you want until you see knock. Then use the other things like AFR and such to determine why it's knocking and if you can change anything or if you're octane limited at that point.
If you don't monitor knock I highly suggest a methanol kit. You won't be able to tune it to the "edge" but you'll be able to make good power that way. I recommend methanol anyway but especially if you're not monitoring knock.
You'll also be able to use a better tune with the knock detector. Instead of having to play it safe, you can lean it out during spoolup so the turbo spools quicker. You can run more boost in the lower gears and have it taper off a little in the higher gears to get it closer to the edge.
The stock TL's engine flows a TON of air. The stock heads are better than my ported aftermarket heads for my GN. If you do forged internals, lower the compression to 9:1 and there's no reason it won't make 600whp on straight 91 octane and 8-900hp on meth/race gas on stock everything else (from the throttlebody to the oil pan, stock). There's just no need to do head and intake and throttlbody work, the stock stuff is more than you would ever need. The only thing you might want to do if running lots of boost is go a little stiffer on the intake valve springs. Boost will cause valve float at a lower rpm on the intake side.
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AccordFlex (01-27-2014)
#62
Safety Car
iTrader: (3)
There was a huge discussion about knock back when we were all using the FIC on stock internals. With the implementation of the MS3 and now FP, the discussion was dropped because now there is a solution that will pull timing upon detection and save your engine.
However, if as Matt says, you really want to push things to optimize performance, you'll be pushing things to the edge of knock at which point you'll be defeating that purpose by constantly pulling the timing.
A couple of options being looked at was:
http://www.phormula.co.uk/ - Phormula Knock Gauge
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/8ChInt...terceptor.html - J&S interceptor
I haven't had enough hands on time with FP to know if you can work with the knock detection but with the MS3 that was definitely possible. There are also other options with the popularity of the Pi and Arduino to create a knock detection system.
All I have done so far (on MS3) is to identify knock in the logs and see that the timing was indeed being pulled.
However, if as Matt says, you really want to push things to optimize performance, you'll be pushing things to the edge of knock at which point you'll be defeating that purpose by constantly pulling the timing.
A couple of options being looked at was:
http://www.phormula.co.uk/ - Phormula Knock Gauge
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/8ChInt...terceptor.html - J&S interceptor
I haven't had enough hands on time with FP to know if you can work with the knock detection but with the MS3 that was definitely possible. There are also other options with the popularity of the Pi and Arduino to create a knock detection system.
All I have done so far (on MS3) is to identify knock in the logs and see that the timing was indeed being pulled.
Last edited by KN_TL; 01-27-2014 at 02:11 PM.
#63
Team Owner
The problem is I have never seen an ECU that can pull enough timing quick enough once it starts on anything but a stock turbo car. Detonation can be stopped by pulling timing but pre-ignition can't. Preignition is hard to detect while detonation makes the traditional pinging noise around 6.4khz. While detonation will kill engines, preignition can kill it quicker. Detonation is more common and can cause preignition.
One thing most aftermarket tuners don't think about is the AFR under sustained full throttle and boost. Just about every manufacturer programs their cars to richen up after 20-30 seconds of full throttle. This is to keep the plugs cool and prevent preignition. I've watched so many videos where they do a 30-160mph run and the AFR is constant. Most thing that's the goal but it should always richen by a full point over time. I drag race and I'm going over 130mph in 9-10 seconds depending on traction. On the street there's never more than 4-5 seconds of full throttle at any given time. I can get away with a pretty lean and constant AFR. If I were to do a top speed run like that it would blow up for sure without changing the tune.
A knock sensor and EGT gauges together almost guarantee the engine will always live a long and happy life at high power. While the knock sensor has a hard time hearing preignition, EGTs will fall off instantly when it occurs. It's one of the best ways to stop preignition.
With that said, running several step colder plugs is more important than most think. You won't lose any power but you might foul them out quicker if you don't run the car hard enough often enough. Still , replacing or cleaning plugs more often is nothing compared to a new engine.
Also, stop and think about what the pinging sound actually is when caused from detonation. It's the engine resonating from the tremendous pressure spike. It's bad stuff. Now imagine preignition that can start at the end of the intake stroke, you get a spike that builds slower but almost as powerful but for a much longer duration.
Detonation tends to break stuff just as a hammer would. It puts pits in piston tops. Preignition melts stuff like pistons. It causes the crown to heat up so fast the piston tries to seize and you lose the engine very quickly with little warning. It's another reason a boosted stock internaled TL is best left for short drag racing, not top end runs.
I think I got off topic but the point is to eliminate detonation at all costs as quickly as possible and if preignition occurs as a result it probably won't stop once timing is pulled, the only solution is to lift off the throttle.
One thing most aftermarket tuners don't think about is the AFR under sustained full throttle and boost. Just about every manufacturer programs their cars to richen up after 20-30 seconds of full throttle. This is to keep the plugs cool and prevent preignition. I've watched so many videos where they do a 30-160mph run and the AFR is constant. Most thing that's the goal but it should always richen by a full point over time. I drag race and I'm going over 130mph in 9-10 seconds depending on traction. On the street there's never more than 4-5 seconds of full throttle at any given time. I can get away with a pretty lean and constant AFR. If I were to do a top speed run like that it would blow up for sure without changing the tune.
A knock sensor and EGT gauges together almost guarantee the engine will always live a long and happy life at high power. While the knock sensor has a hard time hearing preignition, EGTs will fall off instantly when it occurs. It's one of the best ways to stop preignition.
With that said, running several step colder plugs is more important than most think. You won't lose any power but you might foul them out quicker if you don't run the car hard enough often enough. Still , replacing or cleaning plugs more often is nothing compared to a new engine.
Also, stop and think about what the pinging sound actually is when caused from detonation. It's the engine resonating from the tremendous pressure spike. It's bad stuff. Now imagine preignition that can start at the end of the intake stroke, you get a spike that builds slower but almost as powerful but for a much longer duration.
Detonation tends to break stuff just as a hammer would. It puts pits in piston tops. Preignition melts stuff like pistons. It causes the crown to heat up so fast the piston tries to seize and you lose the engine very quickly with little warning. It's another reason a boosted stock internaled TL is best left for short drag racing, not top end runs.
I think I got off topic but the point is to eliminate detonation at all costs as quickly as possible and if preignition occurs as a result it probably won't stop once timing is pulled, the only solution is to lift off the throttle.
#64
Safety Car
iTrader: (3)
The problem is I have never seen an ECU that can pull enough timing quick enough once it starts on anything but a stock turbo car. Detonation can be stopped by pulling timing but pre-ignition can't. Preignition is hard to detect while detonation makes the traditional pinging noise around 6.4khz. While detonation will kill engines, preignition can kill it quicker. Detonation is more common and can cause preignition.
One thing most aftermarket tuners don't think about is the AFR under sustained full throttle and boost. Just about every manufacturer programs their cars to richen up after 20-30 seconds of full throttle. This is to keep the plugs cool and prevent preignition. I've watched so many videos where they do a 30-160mph run and the AFR is constant. Most thing that's the goal but it should always richen by a full point over time. I drag race and I'm going over 130mph in 9-10 seconds depending on traction. On the street there's never more than 4-5 seconds of full throttle at any given time. I can get away with a pretty lean and constant AFR. If I were to do a top speed run like that it would blow up for sure without changing the tune.
A knock sensor and EGT gauges together almost guarantee the engine will always live a long and happy life at high power. While the knock sensor has a hard time hearing preignition, EGTs will fall off instantly when it occurs. It's one of the best ways to stop preignition.
With that said, running several step colder plugs is more important than most think. You won't lose any power but you might foul them out quicker if you don't run the car hard enough often enough. Still , replacing or cleaning plugs more often is nothing compared to a new engine.
Also, stop and think about what the pinging sound actually is when caused from detonation. It's the engine resonating from the tremendous pressure spike. It's bad stuff. Now imagine preignition that can start at the end of the intake stroke, you get a spike that builds slower but almost as powerful but for a much longer duration.
Detonation tends to break stuff just as a hammer would. It puts pits in piston tops. Preignition melts stuff like pistons. It causes the crown to heat up so fast the piston tries to seize and you lose the engine very quickly with little warning. It's another reason a boosted stock internaled TL is best left for short drag racing, not top end runs.
I think I got off topic but the point is to eliminate detonation at all costs as quickly as possible and if preignition occurs as a result it probably won't stop once timing is pulled, the only solution is to lift off the throttle.
One thing most aftermarket tuners don't think about is the AFR under sustained full throttle and boost. Just about every manufacturer programs their cars to richen up after 20-30 seconds of full throttle. This is to keep the plugs cool and prevent preignition. I've watched so many videos where they do a 30-160mph run and the AFR is constant. Most thing that's the goal but it should always richen by a full point over time. I drag race and I'm going over 130mph in 9-10 seconds depending on traction. On the street there's never more than 4-5 seconds of full throttle at any given time. I can get away with a pretty lean and constant AFR. If I were to do a top speed run like that it would blow up for sure without changing the tune.
A knock sensor and EGT gauges together almost guarantee the engine will always live a long and happy life at high power. While the knock sensor has a hard time hearing preignition, EGTs will fall off instantly when it occurs. It's one of the best ways to stop preignition.
With that said, running several step colder plugs is more important than most think. You won't lose any power but you might foul them out quicker if you don't run the car hard enough often enough. Still , replacing or cleaning plugs more often is nothing compared to a new engine.
Also, stop and think about what the pinging sound actually is when caused from detonation. It's the engine resonating from the tremendous pressure spike. It's bad stuff. Now imagine preignition that can start at the end of the intake stroke, you get a spike that builds slower but almost as powerful but for a much longer duration.
Detonation tends to break stuff just as a hammer would. It puts pits in piston tops. Preignition melts stuff like pistons. It causes the crown to heat up so fast the piston tries to seize and you lose the engine very quickly with little warning. It's another reason a boosted stock internaled TL is best left for short drag racing, not top end runs.
I think I got off topic but the point is to eliminate detonation at all costs as quickly as possible and if preignition occurs as a result it probably won't stop once timing is pulled, the only solution is to lift off the throttle.
#65
Most guys are only thinking about the"ECU" when it comes to knock
We know there are cars that are more prone to knock then others, dynamically. Many OEM cars are programmed a certain way to combat certain characteristics. It could be a very hot style combustion chamber that offers good economy burn characteristics but detrimental to turbulent mixtures under boost. Key to lowering the chances of knock, per given horsepower or per give HP/L/turbo size/octane on this situation, is to reduce the turbulance (long length exhaust manifold, nice intake manifold, etc..)
For example, the fuel dump 20-30 secs after full throttle run that was being discussed earlier, can be solved with a different plug type and heatrange. Also simply by sending the flame front past the exhaust valve, will create post-chamber combustion which will help suck and scavenge exhaust heat out of the engine during a decel cycle. It can be witnessed by modern super cars now, with a blue flame trailing the end of a hard run at higher RPM's. Blue flame means lean burn, late burn, very little fuel.
Current technology available to OEM cars cannot cleanly determine knock at higher RPM's. Usually past 6000RPM they would begin to have trouble. We see trends like blown up Subaru STi's or new Evo X's in stock form, and these cars are our current modern turbo performance cars for standards. With these cars being 2010+ cars and host of ECU improvements year by year, they still have trouble with detonation and blown pistons at measly 130-150 BHP/L on premium fuel and low 9's compression ratios.
The Hondata cannot determine knock after it is turbocharged.. The turbo at the end of the exhaust stream as well as the back pressure of a turbo setup will change the peak combustion pressure at different engine degrees during the power cycle. The ECU will sample the "hit" at the wrong time (if the ECU has enough resolution). My guess, it is probably not fast enough to do it at a higher RPM being a 2004-2007 car.
So to keep in mind for a boosted J-series, these cars hate back pressures due to the compression ratio and a very small intake manifold. There are other methods, which you can read about on my recent turbo J35 thread. If you were to choose a turbo, let's say a Precision turbo, I would choose a 6265 rather than a 6262; or say Garrett, I would choose a GTX3576R rather than a GTX3076R, for example as a good start.
We know there are cars that are more prone to knock then others, dynamically. Many OEM cars are programmed a certain way to combat certain characteristics. It could be a very hot style combustion chamber that offers good economy burn characteristics but detrimental to turbulent mixtures under boost. Key to lowering the chances of knock, per given horsepower or per give HP/L/turbo size/octane on this situation, is to reduce the turbulance (long length exhaust manifold, nice intake manifold, etc..)
For example, the fuel dump 20-30 secs after full throttle run that was being discussed earlier, can be solved with a different plug type and heatrange. Also simply by sending the flame front past the exhaust valve, will create post-chamber combustion which will help suck and scavenge exhaust heat out of the engine during a decel cycle. It can be witnessed by modern super cars now, with a blue flame trailing the end of a hard run at higher RPM's. Blue flame means lean burn, late burn, very little fuel.
Current technology available to OEM cars cannot cleanly determine knock at higher RPM's. Usually past 6000RPM they would begin to have trouble. We see trends like blown up Subaru STi's or new Evo X's in stock form, and these cars are our current modern turbo performance cars for standards. With these cars being 2010+ cars and host of ECU improvements year by year, they still have trouble with detonation and blown pistons at measly 130-150 BHP/L on premium fuel and low 9's compression ratios.
The Hondata cannot determine knock after it is turbocharged.. The turbo at the end of the exhaust stream as well as the back pressure of a turbo setup will change the peak combustion pressure at different engine degrees during the power cycle. The ECU will sample the "hit" at the wrong time (if the ECU has enough resolution). My guess, it is probably not fast enough to do it at a higher RPM being a 2004-2007 car.
So to keep in mind for a boosted J-series, these cars hate back pressures due to the compression ratio and a very small intake manifold. There are other methods, which you can read about on my recent turbo J35 thread. If you were to choose a turbo, let's say a Precision turbo, I would choose a 6265 rather than a 6262; or say Garrett, I would choose a GTX3576R rather than a GTX3076R, for example as a good start.
#67
Pro
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Just arrived. Needs some attention as this thing is pretty old. Found it on eBay from a seller who said it was an overstock item. However, it was shipped directly from Versus through Greyhound which was the odd part. Oh well, not sure why they had it, but I found it thankfully.
Some of the edges are slightly marked up, there is raw primer that needs some sanding, and will need some sort of strengthening behind the bumper because it is fiberglass and I dont want to ruin it with the slightest bump. I will be laying metal rods behind it and fiberglassing over it. Front grill and side wing/built in splitters will be painted Crystal Black Pearl to match the roof and roof spoiler.
Eventually I would like to build some fog lights in the two smaller side openings. But goal is to have this and turbo on and tuned by April to be at Honda Day in NJ.
#68
J-series addict
iTrader: (4)
The problem is I have never seen an ECU that can pull enough timing quick enough once it starts on anything but a stock turbo car. Detonation can be stopped by pulling timing but pre-ignition can't. Preignition is hard to detect while detonation makes the traditional pinging noise around 6.4khz. While detonation will kill engines, preignition can kill it quicker. Detonation is more common and can cause preignition.
I agree with this. Stock ECM will usually not pull it fast enough or have a limit at how much it can remove timing. This is why its very important to run a knock controller such as J&R's that will pull it in a responsiveness thats much faster and much more dramatic. This of course is all dependent on knock severity. The factory ECM uses a "knock table" that usually coincides with with other tables to determine a knock retard percentage and happens gradually. It is NOT designed to yank out timing when knock is detected under boost. Remember, the factory ECM uses the knock sensor for fuel quality purposes and to give timing adjustment over a range of both time and signal inputs.
As for the preignition thing, I also agree with this. The j-series is by far one of the worst engines at preignition especially under boost because its a massive heat generator and has around 11.0:1 compression on the 3g TL-S. make sure you you run cooler plugs, use meth if you have to, wrap or shield your exhaust around the engine and use the best 91 or 93 octane you can buy. I use Shell myself but I also like Chevron too.
A knock sensor and EGT gauges together almost guarantee the engine will always live a long and happy life at high power. While the knock sensor has a hard time hearing preignition, EGTs will fall off instantly when it occurs. It's one of the best ways to stop preignition.
I would also like to add a few things here. The EGT sensors are not very good at making quick gauge readings and although this depends on many factors (mostly the quality of sensors used), dont expect EGT to help you like a pair of widebands in regards to the well being of the motor. Widebands can respond with such quickness that you generally have enough time to let off when than issue is seen, felt or heard. A badass knock monitor or controller (preferably controller) is the only thing that will react quicker than a wideband in either informing the driver that there's an issue OR altering the timing when detonation has been detected. AEM makes a wideband that's a big deal now called a failsafe of which detects dangerously lean conditions and will literally change (richen) the ECM's output in a manner that is somewhat comparable to a knock controller. The knock controller can alter ignition timing whereas the failsafe wideband will alter fuel. Great insurance on a boosted engine.
With that said, running several step colder plugs is more important than most think. You won't lose any power but you might foul them out quicker if you don't run the car hard enough often enough. Still , replacing or cleaning plugs more often is nothing compared to a new engine.
One thing here, its a wise idea to do a WOT run under your highest desired boost level to as soon as the plugs are freshly installed to get a accurate and proper plug reading on the engines actual state of health in its most important zone. Before O2's, people had this method of checking AF ratios, ignition timing, etc...
Detonation tends to break stuff just as a hammer would. It puts pits in piston tops. Preignition melts stuff like pistons. It causes the crown to heat up so fast the piston tries to seize and you lose the engine very quickly with little warning. It's another reason a boosted stock internaled TL is best left for short drag racing, not top end runs.
I've always been a HUGE supporter of this exact fact of a bone stock j-series. Short bursts of boost or nitrous shots are the best way to treat these engines. As I said before, after the engine has experienced extended periods of elevated chamber temps, both preignition and detonation will quickly begin to appear unless you've invested in some expensive race fuel or meth injection. These were the ONLY things Ive known to almost completely take away my knock counts. Even at 15psi on stock internals, I was amazed to see 2 knock counts down low on a 11 second run.
I think I got off topic but the point is to eliminate detonation at all costs as quickly as possible and if preignition occurs as a result it probably won't stop once timing is pulled, the only solution is to lift off the throttle.
I agree with this. Stock ECM will usually not pull it fast enough or have a limit at how much it can remove timing. This is why its very important to run a knock controller such as J&R's that will pull it in a responsiveness thats much faster and much more dramatic. This of course is all dependent on knock severity. The factory ECM uses a "knock table" that usually coincides with with other tables to determine a knock retard percentage and happens gradually. It is NOT designed to yank out timing when knock is detected under boost. Remember, the factory ECM uses the knock sensor for fuel quality purposes and to give timing adjustment over a range of both time and signal inputs.
As for the preignition thing, I also agree with this. The j-series is by far one of the worst engines at preignition especially under boost because its a massive heat generator and has around 11.0:1 compression on the 3g TL-S. make sure you you run cooler plugs, use meth if you have to, wrap or shield your exhaust around the engine and use the best 91 or 93 octane you can buy. I use Shell myself but I also like Chevron too.
A knock sensor and EGT gauges together almost guarantee the engine will always live a long and happy life at high power. While the knock sensor has a hard time hearing preignition, EGTs will fall off instantly when it occurs. It's one of the best ways to stop preignition.
I would also like to add a few things here. The EGT sensors are not very good at making quick gauge readings and although this depends on many factors (mostly the quality of sensors used), dont expect EGT to help you like a pair of widebands in regards to the well being of the motor. Widebands can respond with such quickness that you generally have enough time to let off when than issue is seen, felt or heard. A badass knock monitor or controller (preferably controller) is the only thing that will react quicker than a wideband in either informing the driver that there's an issue OR altering the timing when detonation has been detected. AEM makes a wideband that's a big deal now called a failsafe of which detects dangerously lean conditions and will literally change (richen) the ECM's output in a manner that is somewhat comparable to a knock controller. The knock controller can alter ignition timing whereas the failsafe wideband will alter fuel. Great insurance on a boosted engine.
With that said, running several step colder plugs is more important than most think. You won't lose any power but you might foul them out quicker if you don't run the car hard enough often enough. Still , replacing or cleaning plugs more often is nothing compared to a new engine.
One thing here, its a wise idea to do a WOT run under your highest desired boost level to as soon as the plugs are freshly installed to get a accurate and proper plug reading on the engines actual state of health in its most important zone. Before O2's, people had this method of checking AF ratios, ignition timing, etc...
Detonation tends to break stuff just as a hammer would. It puts pits in piston tops. Preignition melts stuff like pistons. It causes the crown to heat up so fast the piston tries to seize and you lose the engine very quickly with little warning. It's another reason a boosted stock internaled TL is best left for short drag racing, not top end runs.
I've always been a HUGE supporter of this exact fact of a bone stock j-series. Short bursts of boost or nitrous shots are the best way to treat these engines. As I said before, after the engine has experienced extended periods of elevated chamber temps, both preignition and detonation will quickly begin to appear unless you've invested in some expensive race fuel or meth injection. These were the ONLY things Ive known to almost completely take away my knock counts. Even at 15psi on stock internals, I was amazed to see 2 knock counts down low on a 11 second run.
I think I got off topic but the point is to eliminate detonation at all costs as quickly as possible and if preignition occurs as a result it probably won't stop once timing is pulled, the only solution is to lift off the throttle.
#69
Pro
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
I have been debating on whether or not to get the AEM Tru Boost unit as well. I really like the features it comes with and how it has the failsafe built in. I currently have a HKS EVC-S boost controller which is a very nice unit, however it seems very complicated. I am looking for something nice and uniform for my build and really like how the AEM boost gauge is circular and digital along with their other wideband gauge/sensor and oil pressure gauge/sensor. I think these three paired would look great and be clean.
The HKS unit is a square and thin which is also paired with a seperate square thin HKS matching turbo timer. They mount together and form one combined piece. I just am having a tough time debating where to mount this because of its size and shape. I will most likely be selling this and going with the AEM unit.
I would like some feedback from people about these units and opinions.
AEM Tru Boost
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AEM-TRU-BOOST-ELECTRONIC-GAUGE-TYPE-CONTROLLER-30-4350-/271258767158?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f28484f36&vxp=mtr
OR
HKS EVC-S
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HKS-EVC-S-Electronic-Boost-Controller-EBC-45003-AK009-/291057878632?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43c466c668&vxp=mtr
The HKS unit is a square and thin which is also paired with a seperate square thin HKS matching turbo timer. They mount together and form one combined piece. I just am having a tough time debating where to mount this because of its size and shape. I will most likely be selling this and going with the AEM unit.
I would like some feedback from people about these units and opinions.
AEM Tru Boost
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AEM-TRU-BOOST-ELECTRONIC-GAUGE-TYPE-CONTROLLER-30-4350-/271258767158?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3f28484f36&vxp=mtr
OR
HKS EVC-S
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HKS-EVC-S-Electronic-Boost-Controller-EBC-45003-AK009-/291057878632?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43c466c668&vxp=mtr
#70
wait... do you plan on showing or racing at Honda Day Atco?
#71
Pro
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Just plan on showing at Honda Day, Build will be very fresh and I will most likely wait until a cool summer night once I learn the car and start driving it to do a 1/4 mile pass. Plus gonna need some sticky tires
#72
Team Owner
With the wideband you're talking about that will automatically richen it up to protect the motor, that's an awesome setup and I think it definitely moves it's importance up a few notches. Between that and the knock control, you've got an extremely safe setup that you can put an agressive tune on yet it's still safe. It doesn't tell you if there's knock going on but it will help prevent it from starting.
I usually don't care about EGT. I don't use it for tuning much, in fact, the car doesn't have an EGT readout right now. The only thing I like it for is detecting preignition which the knock sensor has a very hard time picking up. You know if you're under boost and EGTs are in the 1,600-1,800F range and they suddenly drop to 600F, the car is experiencing silent preignition and it's time to lift. If I had my way, I would have it alarm if the EGTs go too low, not too high.
That was my only point really, I just wanted to clarify on the EGT that I don't use it for tuning, just for detection of pre-ignition that doesn't get picked up by the ECU. Since I never really make a full 1/4 run on the street and you figure 5 seconds of full throttle is around 100mph I don't really have to worry about pre-ignition because I'm never in the throttle long enough but some of these videos I've seen of a stock internaled TL doing a 30-160mph run could really use some EGT feedback.
There's usually a lot of hp left on the table in a boosted tune in the name of safety. Having active knock and AFR control will really allow you to run a meaner tune without hurting the engine.
Keep up the great info, I always like reading your posts and if you prove me wrong about something, that means I've learned something new which is never a bad thing.
#75
J-series addict
iTrader: (4)
MS is typically reckoned as a "beginners" style engine management system that possesses a simplistic approach to its purpose. It also uses (relatively speaking) less technology in doing so which IMO means less air fuel/timing accuracy. I'm not saying that its not able to do the job but when there's other systems out there with more technology and better internals, why not invest into something better? I've read many more bad reviews than I have good.
Is there a specific reason why you've chosen MS for engine management?
#77
J-series addict
iTrader: (4)
Without knowing any of these questions, any answer I gave would be misleading and unhelpful to you.
#79
Pro
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
So happy Valentines Day to myself... bought the Snow Performance Stage 3 MPG MAX Methanol kit yesterday. Figured there was no point in tuning the car without meth, saving up and buying it in a month or two after then paying to retune it using meth so I just bought the day kit to do this build right the first time.
I have been thinking of adding an AEM Meth inline filter to this as well incase there is any debris in the mixture it will get caught. Also been thinking of adding a larger reservoir in the rear. It is only a 3 quart tank which I dont think will last me a long time. Dont want to forget about it and not refill and mess everything up.
Heres a few pics of it.
I have been thinking of adding an AEM Meth inline filter to this as well incase there is any debris in the mixture it will get caught. Also been thinking of adding a larger reservoir in the rear. It is only a 3 quart tank which I dont think will last me a long time. Dont want to forget about it and not refill and mess everything up.
Heres a few pics of it.