DisgustipatedAP1

Anybody know how well 70mm (2.75") piping would work? On S2000's it's a good balance between low end torque and high RPM gains, with 2.5" giving decent low end torque and 3" focusing on mid-high RPM gains.

So I'm guessing 2.75" would be about perfect for J series. Thoughts?

Hi speed

iTrader: (3)

I think you should be fine going to a larger diameter tube. There are guys running 3 inch on n/a TL's.

TLdream

iTrader: (4)

+1. I have even used 3 in on my 2.2L many times. No need for anything smaller.

DisgustipatedAP1

Nice. I ran 3" from headerback on my S2000.

How is the low end torque/response for 3" on J series? The engine has a shitload of torque (compared to most Hondas) so I'm guessing even a minor loss would be no big deal.

S2K's see gains of 6-9 whp with 3" piping, so I wonder what the gains on a 3.2L V6 would be...

Sonnick

I have a 3in exhaust on my Accord (3.0L) of the J series. You'll be fine. There are another bunch of guys on V 6 pee that have 3in exhausts as well. Do it

DisgustipatedAP1

Cool, did you get a before and after dyno? I'm guessing I'll have to have the piping made custom since nobody seems to sell good 3" exhausts for the TL.

AARONSredTYPE-S

i have single 2.5" all the way back to a Greddy evo2, and i should have went bigger because top end has suffered from my last set-up.
2.75 would be perfect, but most shops dont have it, so go 3" with a good sized resonator because it will be mad loud if not...gl

DisgustipatedAP1

Hi,

Been floating around the idea of making a custom exhaust for my 6 speed '05 TL. Most of my experience comes from flow/theory involving F20C and F22C from the AP1/AP2 S2000. Had a lot of success using 3" designs on there.

Here's what I was thinking for my TL:

3" Dynomax resonator
2.75" or 3" piping all the way through
Mufflers with quad tips

Does anybody know if 2.75" or 3" would be better? The ATLP J Pipe is 2.5", right? That's what I'll be working with. I'm wondering if the transition from 2.5" to 3" might cause undesirable effects in the overall exhaust flow, so perhaps 2.75" would work better for the transition?

Any ideas? I'd like it to have a great tone but still quiet with minimal drone. I may even incorporate a second resonator. The exhaust design on a TL seems really simple so I should be able to do all of this for $300 or less.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

if you are just looking for brand new piping + labor + resonators + mufflers + tips you are looking at 600-800 at a reputed exhaust shop....

if you are looking to just replace the mufflers and replace the stock resonator with something else and mid muffler delete keeping all the piping stock you are looking at 400ish...

i went with a true dual....ended up costing more (close to 1200)....

or you can take the easy way out....since you have the atlp jpipe, you can just get a greddy/xlr8/rv6 exhaust for 700-1000 and call it a day.....

here is my thread where there were a lot of inputs...

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-performance-parts-modifications-112/going-custom-exhaust-all-way-need-help-754624/

DisgustipatedAP1

Met up with a friend of a friend that works at a high quality, local exhaust shop.

I'm going with Magnaflow mufflers, my quad tips I bought off of Ebay, a 22" Magnaflow resonator, and 3" piping from the catback.

Total cost: $400. The shop does very high quality work. I should get similar sound to an ATLP but with much higher gains. Will update this thread once the exhaust is complete.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

lucky u have a friend....otherwise you would have been in the 600ish ballpark as i mentioned....

i hope your 3" catback splits into 2.5" to go to the muffler...

DisgustipatedAP1

Yes, of course.

Another thing that helps is that I live in SoCal and the tuner scene is extremely hot here. The exhaust shop said they've done several TL's in the past. I was really considering doing 2.5" but I think torque loss with 3" should be minimal.

Anyone done 3" and had any low end torque loss? With J Pipe + Race pipe and eventually PCD's, I think I'll have a ton of extra low end torque, more than enough to offset 3" piping.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

i still think 3" is toooo big as turbo people have gone the single 3" exhaust route....since you are NA and not FI, i think 2.5" should suffice....

thats what I would do....if you know what you are doing than go for it....someone posted a link which tells you what your pipe diameter should be for the power you are making for a no loss setup....let me try to find the link....will post it here

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

here it is:

http://www.ehow.com/how_7714292_choo...#ixzz1OWuFKvhs

Sonnick

Do you have the ATLP Jpipe already? If not, get a custom one made at the shop and get a true merge collector made. I am getting the merge collector installed on Saturday. It is a 12 degree merge with a 2.5in w/3 degree taper to 3in outlet. From there back I have a Magnaflow 6in round 30in, and getting 2 Vibrant Streetpower mufflers installed on Saturday as well.

What resonator are you using? I'd suggest going with an oval resonator because they are more efficient at dampening the sound. Even with my huge 6in round 30in muffler my exhaust is still loud.

EDIT: I see you already have the Jpipe. Look for an exhaust "reducer." Search for a 2.5 to 3in reducer and have it welded to the collector on your Jpipe. That will work better; otherwise the exhaust velocity will slow down, which will adversely affect torque.

DisgustipatedAP1

I'm using a 22" Magnaflow (3" diameter) resonator. I believe it's oval.

So I should ask my fabricator to get a 2.5 in to 3 in reducer and weld it to the J Pipe, huh? I'll talk to him about it on Thursday, just waiting for my quad tips to come in.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

there is no muffler/resonator which is 3" diameter....unless you meant 3" inlet/outlet diameter....

an oval muffler as stated by sonnick would be 5x8x14....and a round muffler which is also known as resonator is 4" or 5" or 6"....there have inlet/outlet diameter or the piping you are using....

Sonnick

If it's 22 inches long than it's their HUGE resonator. I'm pretty sure they only have 1 resonator that size, and it's 5x11x22. That's MONSTEROUS. What mufflers are you using? It's gonna be a sleeper exhaust, especially without the PCDs. It will probably sound only a little louder than stock. Even with the PCDs it should be pretty quiet.

In terms of the reducer, I'm talking about something like the Flowmaster R3025. It's about 8in long and tapers from 2.5 to 3in. I don't know if you want to modify your Jpipe, but you may be able to get a flange made and just attach the flange at the end of your Jpipe to the reducer's flange. It may not be as effective, but should be better than going directly from 2.5 to 3in without any transition.

DisgustipatedAP1

Yeah, it's big, but my fabricator said it'd smooth out the tone and it'd still sound very aggressive/beastly while driving around town yet have a pleasant, low growl while cruising on the highway. I thought it'd still be much louder than stock, even with the 22" resonator? I also have the option of getting an 18". I'm going to be using some Magnaflows, not sure on the specific size.

I'll ask the fabricator if he can use one of those tapering reducers, sounds like a really slick ideas.

I was also thinking I should just skip using a race pipe for the 3rd cat delete and instead make the whole exhaust be J-Pipe back instead of cat-back. Then I could use that 2.5" reducer directly where the exhaust attaches to the J pipe and have it taper up to 3". :detective

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

if you have PCD's (Precat deletes) i would go with 22"

DisgustipatedAP1

I think I'm going to get High Flow Cats instead of PCD's because I'm in SoCal and it's risky to drive around with that PCD smell.

I hate cars

I'm guessing you missed all of the threads on piping diameter and the fact that there is no loss of torque? 3" isn't necessary on a 300hp engine but it won't hurt a thing. I like the sound better, less raspy.

That link is funny. I have no idea why they list displacement as an indicator of the exhaust size needed. HP is what matters. 3" single will take you to roughly 500whp without posing a restriction. Turbo cars should always run larger than needed exhaust because any restriction hurts spool.

DisgustipatedAP1

Yeah, I missed all those threads. I just got my TL a week ago. But I personally know that 3" works fine on Honda motors since I've ran it on my S2000 (2.0 liter F20c) and seen it done on several other K and H series motors, NA of course. I'm guessing I can pick up another 10whp with 3" vs 2.5" piping diameter. Would you mind linking me to those threads you mentioned?

And yes, that link is hilarious in a stupid way. It's an EHow article, what do you expect?

Just curious, if I'm going 3" do you think it's possible to make 60 whp over stock with full boltons instead of the usual 40-50 whp? Wouldn't mind hitting 280-300 whp. The only thing I haven't ordered/bought is a cold air intake, not sure if the gains on those are large enough to justify spending $150~, especially considering how efficient stock is.

Sonnick

Is the 22" resonator the 5x11x22 oval? Although monstrous, it will cancel out all rasp even with the PCDs and still give you a nice tone. If you use 14" mufflers, you should be good. It will be mellow while cruising and probably sound nice and aggressive at WOT without being too loud. If you do 18" mufflers, it will most likely be too quiet, but that's IMO.

As far as making 60whp over stock, I doubt it. With a good tune I'd say yes, it's possible. Untuned no. I'd expect in the realm of 270-275whp fully bolted untuned. We seem to focus more on numbers (myself included) than before/after gains. All dynos read different. Some will read 10% lower than others, don't be discouraged if you don't hit a specific number. How it performs is a much better indicator

With regards to an intake, just get it lol. It completes the package. Even if you want to do custom. I have the Fujita and the weld on the bracket to hold it broke, so I have a gaping hole covered in gorilla tape. Not sure if/how much it's hurting my power, but I plan on going custom 3.5" or so in the near future.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

we are again on the wrong page LOL....why not go 3.5" ? bigger is not better all the time....if you check ferrari's exhaust for instance, the exhaust pipe diameter changes depending on the throttle....why didnt they just put a 4" exhaust there....?

What am trying to say is that 3" will not pose a problem but yes the power curve will move towards the higher rpm band....the exhaust moves in pulse and 3" is tooo wide for a NA application to pressure those pulses out...yeah it will sound good coz of all the dampening its getting from a wide 3" pipe...

ahhh that number 300hp....its more like a quest for all NA folks....again you are expecting to make 10 more hp from a wider catback....so if a regular catback gives you 10-15hp, you think a wider catback will give you an additional 10hp OVER that ?

ever wonder why no vendors went ahead and made a 3" catback for NA applications ?

i think he is taking about the 4x22 round muffler....i doubt you can fit a 5x11x22 down there....

Sonnick

I don't think they make a 4" round that's 22" long in 3" diameter, I'm pretty sure it's either 18 or 24.

OP: What is the exact muffler you're talking about? If it's a 4" round muffler by ANY length (18 or 24) it's gonna be really loud. If you can't fit the 5x11x22 I'd suggest the 5x8x24.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

^^^ damn didnt think about that

they dont make 3" in-out thats 22" LOL.....

this link should help the OP

http://www.summitracing.com/search/D...n/?Ns=Rank|Asc

Sonnick

My exhaust right now is loud. Despite the fact that my mufflers are blown, it was loud before they were blown. My exhaust consists of PCDs to a custom Jpipe to a 3in midpipe to a 6in round x 30in Magnaflow muffler back to a Y split to 2 2.5in pipes to Dynomax Ultraflow mufflers (4.5x9.75x14). All of the mufflers are straight through.

If you calculate it out, there is ~848cu in of deadening in the Magnaflow muffler, plus ~614 in each of the Dynomax. Altogether there is 2,076cu in of deadening, and it's still loud. With my new setup (w/custom merge collector and Vibrant Streetpower mufflers), I will have an extra 120cu in of deadening because the mufflers are slightly larger. Hopefully this will be enough to eliminate most of the drone I currently listen to daily.

If I were you, I'd at least go with the 5x8x24in (960cu in) Magnaflow muffler as your resonator, and then 2 mufflers of your choice out back. I feel like anything less than maybe ~1,800cu in of deadening will be loud. But since my mufflers are blown out, I'm assuming it's slightly louder than if they were new. I'm just throwing out the number 1,800 though....

I will have sound clips of my setup tomorrow if you are interested.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

where did you get those sound deadening numbers from...not mentioned on the magnaflow website....

Sonnick

I just did LxWxH for the oval mufflers. It's not perfect because they're not rectangles, but close enough. And for the round muffler I did the volume of a cylinder which is 3.14 (Pi) x radius^2 (squared) times length.

DisgustipatedAP1

So why do H22's make more power off 3"? K20's? F20/F22's? Those are 2.0 to 2.2 liter 4 cylinder engines.

Ah, the appeal to authority. 'Well if the vendors don't offer 3", it must be no good!' Or maybe the vendors simply do piping sizing that's safe and acceptable for the mass majority of buyers. Why does J's Racing and Amuse mostly sell 60-63mm piped exhausts for S2000's? Because people will buy them despite their so-so performance in comparison to 70 and 76mm exhausts, and for a premium too (a 60mm J's exhaust goes for $1200+). 2.5" is only a quarter of an inch bigger, that's nothing at all.

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

thats what i was doing....but i figured the oval mufflers offered a little more deadening as they are not really a cuboid....

well glad to see we are on the same page....

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

vendors on here can only sell if people buy....

also those 4 cylinder make power off a 3" since they have 1.75-2" * 4 headers merging into a 3" exhaust....

you dont have those tubes....you dont have exhaust headers....why do you think the jpipe in the TL makes the most gains of any exhaust components ?

again we are talking about a J32 engine....not a F20/F22....

DisgustipatedAP1

From what I can tell, cat deletes make the most gains followed by J-pipe. You make a good point though, however I believe everything from 'header' back (even though the TL doesn't have a header) is a restriction. What if the J pipe was 3" instead of 2.5", for example? Has anyone tested this?

And for that matter, has anyone done 2.5" vs 3" dynos that conclusively show a low end torque loss or ANY kind of loss for that matter? Or is it the typical 'backpressure' BS myth that gets perpetuated through every branch of the Honda community as usual?

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

i bet you will get answers to that if you work with the vendors....

i have gone the custom route as I mentioned but i discussed a lot with ATLP (mike), richiev6 (richie) and they have tested various prototypes and dynoed it and then made a batch, this helped me make my decision....dont you think if ATLP came out with 2.5" jpipe and richie made a 3" jpipe and claimed it made more power, he will sell a lot more....

anyway i dont want to be the one that discourages some effort....please go ahead and prove me wrong, not being a dick or sarcastic, i want you to prove me wrong....go ahead and get something custom and see the gains....if it works out GREAT....if it doesnt sell it on the BM and try something new.....its always good to learn...

and the reason i didnt include PCD's as the highest gains since not all people get those (i have those and i agree they make the most gains)...if you go HFC then they dont make as much as your jpipe....

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

also you wont have any torque loss....no one said that (including me)....the power curve will just move up the rpm band...you just have to figure out if you want more low end torque and sacrifice some high end HP....or the other way around....or stay pretty modest throughout the rpm range....

DisgustipatedAP1

I'm not flaming you, just so you know. And I know you're not flaming me either.

See, thing about the j-pipes is that we don't know if anyone has really tested 3" or not. I am willing to bet that a full 3" PCD, j-pipe, 3" race pipe + 3" exhaust would make even bigger gains throughout the whole powerband vs. the current 2.5" that everyone is stuck on.

Would be pretty awesome to see if it works.

D Loke

My previous car was an s2000 and I know that 70/76mm exhausts make awesome gains on them.

Ours are set up completely differently tho. The f20/f22 has 4 cylinders going into a header and into a 70/76mm merge. Theoretically, we only would have 3 cylinders feeding into a 3". I would think there wouldnt be enough backpressure there. Keep in mind, we dont rev as high, nor are we turbo, so there COULD be a significant loss of torque. Not sure how it would play out, but I would definitely be interested to see this as well.

Personally, I think a 2.5" TRUE dual would work better than 3".

swoosh

iTrader: (5)

nah i know....we both just have different views which is completely valid....having a 3" PCD and jpipe would almost mean you are trying to go a 3" true dual until the primary pipes of the jpipe meet....

i have a true dual and after extensive research i went 2.25"....the max I would go on a true dual is 2.5"; as a matter of fact I wouldnt go 2.5, but just incase am anal about going bigger.....

i have made a thread when i was going to get my exhaust and couple people who know a lot had commented on there....check it out, its a good read:

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=754624

i agree on everything that you wrote....except the last line....i would stick with 2.25" for a fully bolt-on TL....now if you get a new ECU/pnp the internals/new rods/cams/etc then I think, 2.5" should be decent enough....until then 2.25" it is....

I hate cars

Why won't this myth die? There is no loss of torque period. Only gains with the larger exhaust. Its not about number of cylinders but rather hp for a given size of pipe. Piping has has to be larger closer to the engine and the requirements go down as it gets toward the end of the car. The stock non vtec cam lobes are too small to allow exhaust to hurt low end.