swift22

hello all,

I have done previous engine work and i am always intrigued by possible hybrids. Such as a vkv8 twin turbo 350Z etc etc.

However my experience and love is for Acura/honda V6s. I own an acura legend type-s because i have a built C35a1 with MDX custom pistons installed etc. I also build custom parts also such as an FI intake manifold and currently working on a custom m90 supercharger kit as well.

So now onto the discussion...

3.7 block in my belief and research is better designed with better sleeves?
the heads themselves are made of magnesium alloy so they are lighter and now have the exhaust manifold cast into them..

now the interesting parts..
The motor should be a direct swap since its a j-series motor. Tranny may be a problem at this point but i am pretty sure its a standard acura auto.I would say 6spd though

now the parts list...
block=$650
heads=$350 each
crank=$260
piston=$40/240
rods=$33/198

Now the key facts i need are the specs on the journal sizes for the crank and rods,
The better heads/cams that COULD be swapped or used instead,

I do know the bore was increased very slightly to 90mm.

Now if you do choose just to use the base block,crank,rods, you should be able to combine them with type-s heads and cams UNLESS we can find specs to show the MDX heads(valving) are better and perhaps cams are swappable etc. Also you could choose to put on whatever intake/throttlebody setup you want for your car. By utilizing your own choice of heads/cams, intake you can make it easier to run and tune in your car. Also you could send P2R part and spacer etc as well.


We all know these engines are well built and I think its possible to build a 3.7L 6sp type-s model and then once tuned, bolt on a comptech supercharger.With the added work of porting and exhaust there will always be the added gains also.

For the money I think it would be awesome and it would be a first. So if anybody wants to feel free to lend your thoughts it would be appreciated. I also would like to hand build it myself for you and I will provide a full pictorial DIY for everyone as well. My current motor i am running in my car was hand built from the ground up by myself and has 6k miles on it untuned as of right now. You can see my sig for details. What you will get is a spec'd and balanced block ready to be dropped in your TL. I also can vary the compression ratio for you or get you custom pistons as well since my uncle does pistons for nascar teams. I have read many articles here on past build-ups of the 3.5 hybrid as well and save some other documentation as well.

the combined total for parts would be $2050 plus added for bearings and seals. Now the key part would be to also track down a used 3.5 block to pull parts off to finish the deal such as waterpump, piping, accessories etc to keep cost down for you. My labor would be next to nothing because it keeps me busy and I love my work. If broken in properly according an enclosed sheet I will warranty the block for 90days and 6k miles.

So now let the discussion begin!!

swift22

borrowed this pic of the old 3.5 to show the cleanliness that my block would show...actually maybe better. I also would be ceramic coating the valve covers as well as the intake manifold to your color specifications to keep temperatures as low as possible under the hood.


Ps- It would be great if a moderator could sticky this because it will have alot of useful info for any future builds or swaps of any kind. Thanks in advance.

swift22

saving space for defined spec tables.

swift22

mmm thought i could edit posts here..arg.


07 TL type-S 3.5= 11:1 compression, 89mm X 93mm
07 MDX= 11:1 compression, 90mm X 96mm

So unless i find out more about the MDX block and journal specs, i would be willing to bet I could swap the MDX crank and rods or just rods? into the 3.5L with the 3.5 pistons and it would boost the compression probably to 12:1. I would have to deal with the piston at TDC being 1.5mm higher which should fit nicely. Interesting.(yes i am talking to myself right now)

evanj5

how would you tune the car????????

csmeance

tuning would be a bitch, you can only use the G-Reddy E-Manage Ultimate with a boom-slang harness. Also factor in that the MDX has a reduced redline to it as well. Throwing an SC on it would result in a bunch on trouble in my opinion. The internals may not be able to handle all the boost and such. Also you most likely will need bigger fuel injectors to supply enough to keep the motor running happy. The 3.7 sounds great in the MDX, imagine it in a TL... but some problems I see is the transmission, it isn't as easy as just bolting a transmission to it, there are numerous sensors and wiring that needs to be altered that the SH-AWD system uses. I have the MDX and though about it for a while, but it would cost to much and the reliability would not be there.

The problem is that would you spend about 5-7K plus the added costs of tuning just for 30 extra horse-power, and that too have a car that may be unreliable? I surely wouldn't.

swift22

trust me guys its not as hard as you think. certain sensors are moved, not used etc.

Anyways by my research so far the crank, rods, and heads are all different in part numbers so there is slight differences is each. It just proves that the 3.7 doesnt just use a different crank or this or that. All new parts. The thing is you more than likely can still swap cams.

Let me put it this way..you have a nice brand new TL-S. If you swapped the heads, cams, and wiring harness to a 3.7 short block i guarantee you could start it and drive it on the stock ECU. So if you did get an e-manage it wont be difficult at all.

I will check on the trans codes and part numbers now.(autos)

swift22

I check the internal trans parts of an auto tranny from 07 between TL and MDX and the secondary shaft has the same parts numbers which means the internals are swappable meaning that the trans can be bolted up and be run the same way and has same sensors more than likely. Also to ease some of your minds the waterpumps are the same exact. SO simple parts like this and certain sensors are all the same.

I can get a shortblock for around $1100-1700. A full block for $3k unless i find used.

Mind you this is for the serious performance guy, to build a bullet proof block that is balanced and spec'd and he wont have to worry about for his application.Also despite what you may think you wont be putting down the MDX 300hp numbers(crank) but more because of the higher compression perhaps, cam swap, head flow, intake changes, etc. Fuel injectors shouldnt be a problem with an increase in fuel pressure slightly.

swift22

An example to sooth your mind about tuning and reliability...

an 96-04 C35a block can be swapped fully into a legend and ran off a legend stock ECU. The cams, stroke, bore, and fuel pressure is all different(3.5 FPR) and it runs just fine off a stock ECU. However you can swap cams, springs, intakes, etc and fine tune it and put down nice number with added reliability.

This motor hybrid would be just the same.

erick3

Sounds like a good idea, but the idea seems a bit farfetched; for the money and the labor you'll be putting into this project, the reliability of your final product will be.........................? Shooooot, you'll be the first; if you wanna...just do it hahaha GOOD LUCK man! WHAT A TROOPER

stillhere153

iTrader: (1)

That would not be a hybrid... Rather a frankenstein

Also you should double check the parts for a tl type s... Because if you could use a type s head you could run a supercharger...

Lastly the greddy ultimate would allow for a nice tune... Lastly I would think you'd want to use the 6speed...

But the task would definitely be one to follow...

Expect to get flamed and others to want you to go for an awd type project

lembowski

iTrader: (1)

He doesn't have an 04-08 TL...........he wants to finger yours

trancemission

good luck. but Im not going to sticky it.

swift22

This engine can be built and would run. You would gain more torque and hp. The cost isnt that bad and probably is better hp per $$ than exhaust mods. I have seen the j35hybrids which used many many different parts same as this would. They modified a k24 crank to fit in a f22 motor...

I am an engine builder and custom fabricator. I am also ASE certified. I do not own a TL. There are prominent turbo kit makers that started out with making kits on cars they did not own for the sole purpose of selling kits. I am not selling engine blocks but rather my services and experience for next to nothing. If you look at the prices I listed those are normal acura list prices. The most I could swing is a 20% discount on parts using a acura dealership from GA.

This engine build is not for the light hearted, if you are fine on probably spending the same amount of $$$ on bolt ons that yield less hp be my guest. You can always take them off when selling your car and you keep the acura warranty. However if you want to show how fast a FWD acura v6 can be...this is it.

I know of a guy that has spent over $15k in building a V8 engine for a 350Z that still hasnt been installed. Why, because it will have more tq and it hasnt been done before.(and he is building it himself).

Also there is only one sticky in this exact section, this thread already will contain more crucial info to any members coming along to build engines for there cars. By not stickying this would show complete disregard for the performance aspect as a whole.

swift22

PS-Sorry for my attitude however there has only been one mention of doing this anywhere else on this forum. Also if this can be done in a TL-S it can be done in other hondas as well. This will probably be done by a shop for a guy here for twice as much in a couple years once someone's warranty expires.

stillhere153

iTrader: (1)

I am insane and would be up for it but I am also in nyc... so in my opinion I will stick to swapping an mdx motor inside of a honda civic

csmeance

hold on a second buddy, I am sure that the MDX has a totally different ECU that also helps control the SH-AWD logic. Putting a C35 in a legend is different from the MDX and TL swap. THe C series (besides the NSX) most likely will not have all the drive by wire stuff. It is also straight forward with a FWD to FWD setup. The MDX to TL is SH-AWD to a FWD car. The car would put itself into limp mode and not do any thing unless you satisfied the ECU that all parts are fine and proper to MDX specs. Also there would be some serious heat issues, the MDX motor gets pretty hot and it is pretty well ventilated, and in the TL's bay, it most likely would overheat, and add a charger to the equation, that would end in a bad situation. If you wanted a better motor swap, you should swap an SOS 3.8 v6 that gives out about 350+ horse power with internals that would be able to handle up to 850 WHP using a turbo setup. Yes, this is a real setup, though it would cost about 30K+ as the motor parts are around 14000 and the engine services about 15000.

swift22

^^

Obviously you do not know how to single out subject matters into two different paragraphs or you're confused.(yes i am being a dick..)

SOS works on C30/C32B which are a completely different motor and CANNOT be swapped into a legend. Nor is there a chance in heck that they would swap into a TL. The do not do stroker kits for any other motor at this time. Yes i do know the work done by them quite well.

Now if you did this stroker kit/motor swap you maintain your stock ECU.

Example:

Take and buy a 3.7 short block, Take your 3.5 outta your new TL-S, then we take and swap over the heads, cams, intake manifold and all accessories etc. We also utilize your old wire harness. By doing this your stock Ecu will be able to fully start and run your new engine. It will now just have more torque and should be fined tuned with a piggyback on a dyno.

That right there is the simplest swap.

My car TODAY was running on a STOCK type 1 ECU chip for a legend C32 even though I am running NOTHING from that engine except the same size valving. The cams, intake, fuel rails, and block is all different.(i was testing something).

So I hope i have relaxed a few of the members here down a bit. When looking at this, this is a really easy build. Like swapping a B16 out..

Ps-torque is what wins races.

csmeance

Alright, I see what you are saying, but you should be careful with running it off of the stock tune as it may run lean and cause some issues. By doing the swap, You should gain about 14 crank horsepower, which will trickle down 12.32 WHP with a 12% loss of drive terrain. I doubt 12.32 WHP is worth the 2+K. The only way it would be worth the cost would be if you could obtain 370+ WHP with a SC(reasonable as the 3.2 puts out about 100 WHP Per Litre), the most a person has gotten here was about 320 WHP and that was on a 3.2 motor, Comptech ACM tune. The comptech gives out about 60 WHP gain with the 3.2 TL. My calculations here are on what the TL with a 3.7 would get:

TL-S Crank provided by Manufacturer: 286
TL-S WHP From TOV (dyno follows): 253
Thats about a 12% Loss (6MT)

TL Crank Provided by Manufacturer: 258
TL WHP by comptech : 230
That is also a 12% loss
http://www.ct-engineering.com/store/...atbackDyno.pdf

MDX Block Crank: 300 WHP
WHP: NO ACCURATE WHP READINGS DUE TO SHAWD PROBLEMS, Must be estimated using TL 12% loss: 264

The following is yielded with 3.2 TL Mods:
AEM Intake: 10 WHP
Exhaust: 10 WHP
E-Shift Pro Cats: 20 WHP
Comptech Supercharger: 60WHP
That equals about 100 HP with big margins as alot of the gains overlap with dynos and such

Total 3.2 TL HP estimated: 330 WHP. That means about 10 HP difference from real numbers (I beleive that it was BlackTL1 or BrklynMAN that had 320) The 10 WHP difference will be subtracted as a proper tune on a TL 3.2 will yield the proper ratios and such.

SO a 3.5 TLS ESTIMATED:
TLS WHP: 253
100WHP From above mods: 353 WHP
Subtract the 10WHP from difference: 343, a difference of 23 WHP from a 3.2 TL

This is with ALL MODS ABOVE IN USE, SOME MAY NOT FIT
SO a 3.7 MDX in a TL estimated:
WHP 264
100 WHP From above mods: 364
Subtract the 10 WHP from difference:354, a difference of 34 WHP from the 3.2, a difference of 11 WHP from a 3.5

Would you spend the extra 2k for MDX parts in a TL just for 11 WHP over the stock 3.5 from the TL-S? I wouldn't (Tuning will be needed for both)

Would you spend the extra 2K (may be more to upgrade parts for a 3.5 to 3.7 conversion) for a 3.7 S/C over a Modded 3.2 TL for a gain of 34 WHP, Maybe if the cost was under the 3k.

This is just my logic:


Cliffs:
Modded 3.2 TL MAX: 320 WHP (comptech Tune Ratio)
Modded 3.5 TL MAX: 343 WHP 23 WHP gain over 3.2 (comptech Tune Ratio)
Modded 3.7 TL MAX: 354 WHP 34 WHP gain over 3.2, 11 WHP gain over 3.5 (Comptech tune ratio)

Estimated cost for all:
3.2 about 15K Plus as methanol injection and other stuff needed to upkeep performance. PLUS X Cost for tuning.
3.5 about 15K PLUS X Cost for tuning for about 23 WHP over 3.2
3.7 about 17+K PLUS X Cost for tuning for about 34 WHP over 3.2, 11 for 3.5


ok, I will be honest with you, I have no problem with the 3.7 upgrade, all I am doing is informing the members of the value of doing it.

blueracer17

It's a front wheel drive car that is on the verge of being over powered in stock trim. Why go through all this-just to say you did it?? I'm all for modding and "hot rodding", but you have serious drivetrain limitations going on here. If it was SH AWD like the MDX, then you would have something, but with FWD you have broken axles and a big tire bill. JMO. That being said, good luck with your project.

KaMLuNg

iTrader: (5)

swift22

thanks for the one post above posting all the numbers.

However, when it comes to racing, torque is the key, and a nice linear line is what you want. By combining a longer stroke with different cams etc it may be possible not only to gain the initial torque yet keep it extending farther into the rpm band which also should yield higher peak tq.

about blowing axles etc, My legend can kill an axle once a month because they utilize a different joint design then the newer axles. Also if you know how to drive and are not neutral dropping it every day they can hold far more than they were designed for. The new TL has a LSD and they handle the torque steer pretty nice. If you thinking making alot of power out of a FWD is more expensive than RWD, i wouldnt be swayed in that opinion in the least. There are a few 2nd gen guys putting down 400whp???? on stock axles right???

I may be investing in this project come spring based on the sales of my other projects.

csmeance

Only the 6MT has an LSD, I don't think that the type S 5AT has one. Also I beleive that the second gen guys have aftermarket axles available, the 3rd Gen has none.

swift22

thanks for the input. It only shows there is ways to make power and even more without sacrificing your cars reliability. Power takes money.Thats all there is too it. How much you spend is in relation to how much power you want.

n3o

iTrader: (2)

My RSX with a jrsc @ psi and a basemap is overpowered. Its on stock suspension and BFG G force sports and I light up 1st, 2nd, and half of 3rd and I love my car to death. Get better tires, suspension, sways and some good motor mounts and the car will be good.

n3o

iTrader: (2)

I'm curious. Why not just run a smaller pulley on the ctsc, I'm sure the V6's can handle a good 450-500whp if the K20 can do 350-400whp easy, that being that its easier to make power on bigger motors. What do the TL guys with CTSC's usually run for boost? Any $17000 for the 3.7? How do you figure that if a shop builds a forged bottom end with high revving heads and custom installs everything for you? I can't see the numbers adding that high Unless thats including the cost of a TL.

csmeance

the 17000 is for the MAXIMUM power that can be attained by using almost every mod available to the TL:
Comptech S/C $5000
E-Shift Pro Cats $1250
Methanol Injection $500
Comptech/ALTP/G-Reddy Exhaust $600-1000
AEM Cold Air Intake $200
Motor Parts for conversion $5000
Labor to Install all of this stuff X amount
Tuning Y amount.

Running a smaller pulley is NOT an option to us, if we did run the high boost pulley, there is no reliable tuning method to inject more fuel into the motor. 2 members have already damaged their motors running it on the stock Comptech tune.

swift22

^^ as you pointed out that is the maximum power and a 3.7 would hold it better.

However I am looking at the cost of doing this upgrade N/A and the numbers you would gain JUST by doing it not counting extras.

So add up what you gain from i/h/e and your results per dollar VS just doing this swap etc.

Good News is I may be moving to the chicago area once again in a few weeks to work as a tech at an Acura dealership. So if i do I am sure this will become a reality far quicker

n3o

iTrader: (2)

AFC is a good way to start. If not try to get a bunch of people to get in touch with Hondata, they could do wonders with the J series. Regardless of that explain to me a few things.

Comptech S/C $5000
E-Shift Pro Cats $1250 - WHY THE FUCK would you put cats on the car? Power robbers out the ass.
Methanol Injection $500
Comptech/ALTP/G-Reddy Exhaust $600-1000 - You don't need a baller exhaust, any 2.5" will do, have one custom made.
AEM Cold Air Intake $200
Motor Parts for conversion $5000
Labor to Install all of this stuff X amount - Buy a 200 dollar set of Craftsman tools and get the TL Service Manual
Tuning Y amount.

There must be an aftermarket market for the RL in Japan there has to be, freaking Spoon has a Legend Race car so I'm sure you could find some nice internals overseas. I know using an AFC-II is a bit crude but its better then whatever Comptech uses, flashed ECU or powercard?

csmeance

The stock cats have over 5 times the density of the e-shift ones, and they have been proven to provide gains with the S/C. I quoted the price of prefabbed exhausts as their gains have already been proven. As for labor, most people wouldn't get so deep into their car to do it all by themselves. Sooner or later, a professional will be involved.

As for the RL, there is Zero Market for them. The only mods they have is the TL underdrive pulley, 3 different exhausts and bodykits from amuse and mugen.

swift22

^you guys are very knowlegable and make valid points.


The RL race car apparently was made to only test the endurace of the drivetrain under the harshest evironment possible. I think there is no investment in actual engine performance. However if there is a member here who speaks japaneese he could make a few long distance phone calls to the right people to find out i am sure. The j-series can be quite potent.

csmeance

There is a guy who did is here and already did that. his name is touge here. He owns a shop in NYC and sells all the aftermarket parts available for the RL. His site is visionaryracing.com.

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

I have been thinking about this swap as well. I would be suprised it the computer didnt compensate for the change in displacement. The Ecu makes fuel corrections off of one major input and that is Air flow readings. its plain and simple. You could put larger injectors in and if the adjustment was within the ECUs ability to correct it to 14.7:1 then it would be corrected. Now Check engine lights are a whole nother story. The ECU knows when something is amiss and while it may comensate it will flip the light on. I am more interested the mechanical issues. I have been doing some homework on bore sizes and stuff like that. I am not sure if bore sizes differ between the Type S and the MDX will the heads from the Type S fit without issue? They may have picked up the .2 liter from the stroke and kept the same bore size. I havent gotten that far. BTW. Since I would be doin the job myself the swap would cost me the price of a new MDX block so for me its a no brainer if it would work,.

csmeance

To provide sort of an update to you guys, I have an 2007 MDX and I can tell you, with the right stuff, this thing can be very powerful in the TL, but it's reliability is a hit or miss. with the 3.7 powering a 5K pound SUV, it is fairing ok, but there are a few quirks that I would wait until or try to look into getting fixed:
1. Valve chatter, this thing chatters worse than naked people from miami at the north pole when cold.
2. Max RPM, the 3.7 doesn't rev as high as the 3.2 and 3.5, that means an easy .1 second loss in the quarter mile
3. cooling, this motor gets hot, my exhaust still crackles after driving after 13000 miles of it being worn in.
4. MPG, this thing will drink gas like there is no tomorrow

RACINGHART03

iTrader: (2)

I am thinkin using the 3.5 liter heads on the 3.7 not that will help with any valve noise lol. Most of the Type S heads sound like micro woodpeckers hacking at stainless steel table.

csmeance

my question is weather they will even work in the block. Instead, I would try to see if a custom set of forged heads and rods could be made for us... I forgot the name of the company, but it has a J in in.


EDIT found it: JE forged

ussi

iTrader: (1)

JE Pistons

They can make it not cheap though.

John Kemmerer

Patrick Thomas

1black_seven

iTrader: (2)

You resurrected an almost year old post, that it itself resurrected a ten year old post and you want to ask the original thread starter if his project can work on an Acura Legend...