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I'm prepared for there to be much debate on posting this, but here goes.
04 6MT - stock other than 18s and the stock intake silencer cut off.
Car has 230,000 miles and is held together by rust it seems. I tried to take it for an alignment the other day and EVERYTHING is frozen, so I get to replace all that stuff.
I bought the car dirt cheap because it had blown out plug #5 (and the paint is pretty full of crows feet.) I drove it 3hrs home on 5 cylinders, with the full intention of replacing the motor. Since it was #5, it was easy enough to try a helicoil, and it worked.
I have PCDs on the way, so I figured i would get a baseline. I DO have a Flashpro, and I'm running the 04-06 TL tune that was included. I don't know if this is supposed to be the same as the 04-06 stock tuning, or tuned, but i can say that the a/f was spot on, so I left it alone. I did add 2 degrees of timing while on the dyno and it made more power. I also desensitized the knock sensor a bit, since I must be retarded and can't figure out how or why it will knock at times, but it wasn't bad.
Before I went to the dyno, I did some Virtual dyno logs as well. Here's what Vdyno came up with:
Virtual Dyno 238whp/226wtq
Here's what I made at the dyno:
DynoJet 239whp/219wtq
I datalogged my dyno pass, so I decided to see what VirtualDyno said about it. I used 2400lbs as the weight as that is the rolling resistance of the roller, and I zeroed out the Cd and frontal area since they would not be incorporated on the dyno. Here's the road log and the dyno log together:
I've used this dyno numerous times and it is always accurate. My cam only Vette made 420RWHP on it, my old TL made 220whp stock on it. The same day we dyno'd my friends H22 Accord and it made 193whp which is right where it should be.
No, I haven't gone to the dyno yet. Yes, I plan to if the polar vortex weather ever changes. I'm not too hopeful as the car can be hard to shift to 4th sometimes, but I dont think I shift to 4th in a pass, so we'll see.
The Winpep graph was the best pass I made, the first pass was 234whp. I tried adding another 2 degrees of timing and had the knock sensor desensitized but it just resulted in a bunch of marbles rolling around in a tin can
I'm sure there will be thoughts of prior or unknown mods, but I'm at a loss as to what it could be. I seriously doubt anyone would do cams, and the intake, runners, and tb are all stock. The ONLY possible thing I can think of is that with 230,000 miles, the cats are completely gone and essentially self gutted. I'll post pics once I have them off and get my PCDs installed.
I have all the datalogs and calibration if anyone is interested.
Honestly, I think the TL 6MT puts down 230ish stock, no? If so, I can see you gaining decent power from the silencer delete and tweaking the tune with FlashPro. As Simi said, great numbers, especially for such a high mileage motor!
You were lean AF on the street run...wonder why. So your VDyno was pretty accurate with peak numbers, despite the large discrepancy under the curve.
Honestly, I think the TL 6MT puts down 230ish stock, no? If so, I can see you gaining decent power from the silencer delete and tweaking the tune with FlashPro. As Simi said, great numbers, especially for such a high mileage motor!
You were lean AF on the street run...wonder why. So your VDyno was pretty accurate with peak numbers, despite the large discrepancy under the curve.
My 05 only put down 220, and I figured people would say BS if I said my current stock TL made 240whp, lol. I know GH got some crap on the FB page for 256whp with a good number of mods, but then again that was FB and 'dats da way dose guys roll yo!"
I am only using the stock wideband for my a/f so I think there could be some slight discrepancies there, but for the most part I think it's pretty accurate. The other difference could be 10% ethanol vs non ethanol gas. I put ethanol free in for the dyno - if the rain breaks I'll do some more road logs to see if it is any richer. It could also be attributed to the increased load - the fat pig of a TL is a good bit heaver than the dyno rollers. My car is 3750 with me in it (maybe I'm the fat pig, lol!), and there's Cd and wind resistance to account for, while the dyno is only 2400lbs.
Originally Posted by Grand_hustle17
Wow... You did all the ecu swap and all that stuf for flashpro already?.... Man thats different lol
Yeah, I got a HELL of a deal on the Flashpro, so I couldn't pass it up. I do plan to turbocharge eventually, so its needed no matter what. It lets me purchase parts out of order. I can get PCDs and tune for them. I can get bigger injectors and tune for them. Also, this allows me to optimize the tune for whatever mod I do, and I recommend this. My a/f is pretty much perfect. My 05 used to go rich above 5K, but I couldn't do anything about it. I see people spend thousands on hard parts, but the most important piece to make it all work together properly they don't understand. Software runs the world now, people just need to accept it . Just imagine how much MORE power your car could make if you had a flashpro right now?
Originally Posted by Hi speed
There are claims that the 04 cars had more aggressive timing. The 04 turbo TL's seemed to made power more easily than other years.
Honestly, I think it is a complete crapshoot when on the dyno if you can get a clean pass or not. The first pass I made had no knock, and the knock control was 0%. The second pass had varying amounts of knock retard, but still made more power, except for around 3000 rpms. I really want to just totally desensitize the knock sensor since it blows anyways for a tuning capactiy. I'll run E once FI, so knock won't be a concern. I DID run ethanol free gas for the dyno pulls, so that may have helped a bit too.
I wouldnt mind flash pro if it wasnt almost $1500 just to get the dang part installed lmao.. Car can run rich at that point lmao.. Better rich than lean ill sacrifice the 5whp lmao...
Yeah, I got a HELL of a deal on the Flashpro, so I couldn't pass it up. I do plan to turbocharge eventually, so its needed no matter what. It lets me purchase parts out of order. I can get PCDs and tune for them. I can get bigger injectors and tune for them. Also, this allows me to optimize the tune for whatever mod I do, and I recommend this. My a/f is pretty much perfect. My 05 used to go rich above 5K, but I couldn't do anything about it. I see people spend thousands on hard parts, but the most important piece to make it all work together properly they don't understand. Software runs the world now, people just need to accept it . Just imagine how much MORE power your car could make if you had a flashpro right now?
THANK YOU! It blows my mind when people dismiss tuning solutions.
Your results are very real, people get hung up on mileage like motors get "tired". I made 230 WHP & 212 WTQ on DynoJet with a stock TL with only a Catback. After getting FlashPro and tuning my Dyno runs were much more consistent. Going from the stock ECU to the new ECU with base tune I could note a slight difference, the base tune is a very good starting point.
I wouldnt mind flash pro if it wasnt almost $1500 just to get the dang part installed lmao.. Car can run rich at that point lmao.. Better rich than lean ill sacrifice the 5whp lmao...
It's not for everbody and you should look at more than peak numbers.
It's not for everbody and you should look at more than peak numbers.
In all realness i do.. I do look at area under curve.. Again had it not be sooo much $ before a tune id buy one.. Only positive for me would be removing governor... Other than that ill try a AEM FIC6 or something along those lines...
Don't join it. You will seriously want to kill yourself. It amazes me the amount of negativity that pervades that page. What amazes me most is people are somewhat anonymous on a forum so I can see some 'assholeishness', but people must really not give a damn because they are just plain mean on Facebook, including people that have businesses and are trying to sell stuff.
Also, they ALL write like 'dey be livin in da hood wit dat ish. fo' rizzle, dose rams look tiyeet boyee.' And it's not even a joking manner. Instead of saying, "I'm going to get an aftermarket headunit installed this weekend" it becomes, "yah, ilz be doin' dat dis weekend fo rizzle wit da ICE." WTF
Anywho - GH - you made 278 or so untuned right? What was your air fuel during those runs? My car was very consistent at 13.1-13.2 the whole run, except for the very low end and I think it may have just been lag in the ecu catching up.
It ran SUPER lean on one pass, and made 20 whp less from 3000 to 4000 when it richened up. I also moved VTEC engagement up from 4500 to 4850 to smooth the curve since it was still climbing on the low cam when it engaged.
You could possibly hit 290 tuned on your car, but if you plan to stay N/A and stock cams etc, I guess its good enough. Changing VE is REALLY where you need tuning, so cams, head work, displacement, and FI.
I scored my flashpro with jumper for $650 so I had to do it. I also bought a fly100 so I have just about $800 in it, which is still expensive, but I'd be pissed if I put PCDs on and the car runs rich and I can't do anything about it.
Same dyno / SAE correction...I think you will make 252 after the PCDs. No reason the 3.2 can't make ~285-290 with full bolt ons. Simione did it with his J32 untuned. A couple CL guys have pushed 280 as well. Still haven't seen 270wtq though
So here's a question for you gentlemen since you've all gone through some semblance of the tuning question - For an 05 5AT, since Hondata is NOT an option, will the AEM FIC suffice?
I know the only issue there is the inability to add timing, and that's not an issue for the guys that were running the F/IC with the supercharger for example, but will the F/IC suffice to put things together if you're just running N/A?
I'm planning on a catback, jpipe, HFPC, 3.7 TB/IM. No further plans for now.
EDIT: I should add that RL cams were/are on the "to do list"
Thanks for sharing, I see you plan pre-cat deletes and posting dyno results, and a S/C sounds like it's in the future, any other updates we can look forward too?
Thanks for sharing, I see you plan pre-cat deletes and posting dyno results, and a S/C sounds like it's in the future, any other updates we can look forward too?
No SC plans for me, unless someone has an MP90 that's been modded for cheap, and even then it would just be a fun excercise. Ive never been a fan of positive displacement blowers (I do like the whine tho), so I do eventually plan on turbocharging.
I only payed $1500 for this car, so I'm not willing to dump 5 grand or more into a turbo kit. I'll be doing it on the cheap. I'll have to buy injectors and a fuel pump so those will be decent, but the rest will be fleabay stuff (I'm made of flame retardant material, so fire away!).
I may do the injectors while N/A, as some people will claim that a reduced duty cycle can increase power. I'd like to see how true that is in our cars. Possibly even run E85 while NA.
I may also do a custom 3in exhaust to 2.5in split while N/A just to see what kind of gains I can get. The problem is I'll stay with stock mufflers until turboed. There are NO modded TLs in my area, so everything I've listened to online sounds like a CRX with a fart can.
The gains from the 3.7IM and ZDXTB sound nice as well but the SHAWD is absurdly expensive. I'd go with the M/ZDX IM too. I feel like a moron though since there are so many threads and I can't find a definitive one as to what I can or cannot use.
I hadn't planned on starting the turbo kit yet, but my friend just bought a tig welder so that may speed things a bit. It won't be near as nice as some on here, but I have no doubts it will work. I'll be happy with 375whp, but it would be fun to push the stock bottom end further if I have enough fuel and can get a clutch that can hold.
A3 motors are dirt cheap so I'll just slap another one in if anything happens. I might get a spare motor that I can widen the ring end gap on and put a thicker head gasket in to lower CR. No built bottom end for me. The wife's caddy gets a turbo kit first.
Don't join it. You will seriously want to kill yourself. It amazes me the amount of negativity that pervades that page. What amazes me most is people are somewhat anonymous on a forum so I can see some 'assholeishness', but people must really not give a damn because they are just plain mean on Facebook, including people that have businesses and are trying to sell stuff.
Also, they ALL write like 'dey be livin in da hood wit dat ish. fo' rizzle, dose rams look tiyeet boyee.' And it's not even a joking manner. Instead of saying, "I'm going to get an aftermarket headunit installed this weekend" it becomes, "yah, ilz be doin' dat dis weekend fo rizzle wit da ICE." WTF
Anywho - GH - you made 278 or so untuned right? What was your air fuel during those runs? My car was very consistent at 13.1-13.2 the whole run, except for the very low end and I think it may have just been lag in the ecu catching up.
It ran SUPER lean on one pass, and made 20 whp less from 3000 to 4000 when it richened up. I also moved VTEC engagement up from 4500 to 4850 to smooth the curve since it was still climbing on the low cam when it engaged.
You could possibly hit 290 tuned on your car, but if you plan to stay N/A and stock cams etc, I guess its good enough. Changing VE is REALLY where you need tuning, so cams, head work, displacement, and FI.
I scored my flashpro with jumper for $650 so I had to do it. I also bought a fly100 so I have just about $800 in it, which is still expensive, but I'd be pissed if I put PCDs on and the car runs rich and I can't do anything about it.
negativity is here on Acurazine too. I just stick with real world data or video proof or evidence of performance. People will take personal jabs too.
Don't join it. You will seriously want to kill yourself. It amazes me the amount of negativity that pervades that page. What amazes me most is people are somewhat anonymous on a forum so I can see some 'assholeishness', but people must really not give a damn because they are just plain mean on Facebook, including people that have businesses and are trying to sell stuff.
Also, they ALL write like 'dey be livin in da hood wit dat ish. fo' rizzle, dose rams look tiyeet boyee.' And it's not even a joking manner. Instead of saying, "I'm going to get an aftermarket headunit installed this weekend" it becomes, "yah, ilz be doin' dat dis weekend fo rizzle wit da ICE." WTF
Anywho - GH - you made 278 or so untuned right? What was your air fuel during those runs? My car was very consistent at 13.1-13.2 the whole run, except for the very low end and I think it may have just been lag in the ecu catching up.
It ran SUPER lean on one pass, and made 20 whp less from 3000 to 4000 when it richened up. I also moved VTEC engagement up from 4500 to 4850 to smooth the curve since it was still climbing on the low cam when it engaged.
You could possibly hit 290 tuned on your car, but if you plan to stay N/A and stock cams etc, I guess its good enough. Changing VE is REALLY where you need tuning, so cams, head work, displacement, and FI.
I scored my flashpro with jumper for $650 so I had to do it. I also bought a fly100 so I have just about $800 in it, which is still expensive, but I'd be pissed if I put PCDs on and the car runs rich and I can't do anything about it.
Im still waiting on the graphs.. Gotta chase the shop owner for the email. According to him he had family issues and wasnt in the shop. Car made 273whp.. Not sure what the afr is.. That change in vtec engagement sounds good but wouldnt that make u slower with real live power?.. I would think you want vtec sooner right?, maybe not?... I wish i can score hondata for the low also but then comes harness ecu and keys and then tune..
Same dyno / SAE correction...I think you will make 252 after the PCDs. No reason the 3.2 can't make ~285-290 with full bolt ons. Simione did it with his J32 untuned. A couple CL guys have pushed 280 as well. Still haven't seen 270wtq though
Untuned 285 would be sweet.. Would need head work on the 3.2 to get that im sure.. Im more concerned for tq.. My tq was like 223 iirc.. I want 240-260wtq.. JJH here had a 270wtq dyno... He had a lightweight flywheel though... I really want one but i dont want stg3 clutch.. I like oem
Untuned 285 would be sweet.. Would need head work on the 3.2 to get that im sure.. Im more concerned for tq.. My tq was like 223 iirc.. I want 240-260wtq.. JJH here had a 270wtq dyno... He had a lightweight flywheel though... I really want one but i dont want stg3 clutch.. I like oem
You can get a lightweight flywheel with any stage clutch, not just stage 3. If you like the OEM feel, just get a stage 1 or 2 clutch.
Untuned 285 would be sweet.. Would need head work on the 3.2 to get that im sure.. Im more concerned for tq.. My tq was like 223 iirc.. I want 240-260wtq.. JJH here had a 270wtq dyno... He had a lightweight flywheel though... I really want one but i dont want stg3 clutch.. I like oem
I made 289/239.6 with type s cams/4 inch intake/3.7 tl mani and tb/ pcds/jpipe
Ur pulley/3 inch to split 2.5 inch exhaust. Oem ecu.
simione, did you do all the mods at the same time? Im curious what kind of gains you got from the type-s cams. I know they are referred to as 'hype-s' here, but most of those people also use a stock airbox...
If you have a thread with everything I can go through it - just post a link.
Family Guy - are the stage 1 and 2 clutches using a spring disc or not? I thought the TL uses a DM flywheel and an unsprung disc. I know some people have used the AASCO flywheel with a stock clutch, but I was wondering if it would be better to use a disc with springs then. I have also looked at the P2R disc, but since it's not sprung I didn't think it would be good with a lightweight flywheel.
I really want to try a K series clutch and flywheel, as it would reduce cost greatly. There are a couple of ways to do it apparently - a 5/8 crank spacer, or extended bolts on the throwout bearing fork. Of course, the starter gear has to be modified as well. There was also a guy that used a K trans on the J, but that seems like too much trouble, especially since I already have a 6MT.
My only thread is the the one I have in here. I had the type s cams in my j30 and made 267/224 . Same mods moved over to the j32 and made 289/239. Pretty sure the type s cams have more lift than the base cams, but Sonnick made more power on his j30 than I did on mine, and he didn't have cams. He made 272/235 stock ecu . We essentially had the same mods. Different dynos, of course
Yea, it's hard to say without a back-to-back dyno of the Type S cams if they are actually worth the money. I'm sure a car with full bolt ons will respond better to the cams than an I/E car, considering it's much more free flowing.
It's difficult to compare different dynos in different states...not really an accurate measure. Plus I think my 235 & 238 torque numbers are a bit high for a J30 lol. Although a FBO 8G 6spd Accord put down around the same power I did on the same dyno, just with more torque.
Family Guy - are the stage 1 and 2 clutches using a spring disc or not? I thought the TL uses a DM flywheel and an unsprung disc. I know some people have used the AASCO flywheel with a stock clutch, but I was wondering if it would be better to use a disc with springs then. I have also looked at the P2R disc, but since it's not sprung I didn't think it would be good with a lightweight flywheel.
Correct OEM flywheel is DM with solid clutch. You want some sort of dampening somewhere, so when you go with a solid flywheel, like a lightweight one, then you should get a dampened clutch. That's what I did. The Spec clutch I got is dampened. Clutchmasters also sell dampened clutches. Many aftermarket manufacturers offer both dampened and solid versions of their clutches. It's much better for a daily driver vs a solid FW with a solid clutch.
Originally Posted by screaminz28
I really want to try a K series clutch and flywheel, as it would reduce cost greatly. There are a couple of ways to do it apparently - a 5/8 crank spacer, or extended bolts on the throwout bearing fork. Of course, the starter gear has to be modified as well. There was also a guy that used a K trans on the J, but that seems like too much trouble, especially since I already have a 6MT.
Why go through all that trouble and risk if it doesn't work right? You'll have to pay to get into the clutch again and try a new setup. Just go with Spec or Clutchmasters, they both work plus the weight savings are there, and that's what you want.
Same dyno / SAE correction...I think you will make 252 after the PCDs. No reason the 3.2 can't make ~285-290 with full bolt ons. Simione did it with his J32 untuned. A couple CL guys have pushed 280 as well. Still haven't seen 270wtq though
You have seen p2r's j32a2 stock internals dyno put down 270 wtq, unless you think they are exaggerating?
Correct OEM flywheel is DM with solid clutch. You want some sort of dampening somewhere, so when you go with a solid flywheel, like a lightweight one, then you should get a dampened clutch. That's what I did. The Spec clutch I got is dampened. Clutchmasters also sell dampened clutches. Many aftermarket manufacturers offer both dampened and solid versions of their clutches. It's much better for a daily driver vs a solid FW with a solid clutch.
Why go through all that trouble and risk if it doesn't work right? You'll have to pay to get into the clutch again and try a new setup. Just go with Spec or Clutchmasters, they both work plus the weight savings are there, and that's what you want.
Just trying to do something different. I think clutches are an absolute ripoff for our cars at their pricepoint, especially considering they use stock pressure plates.
A lightweight flywheel and clutch for a K series is about half the price of the setup for a J. Just as Robert finds different internals that work, why not try the same for clutches? I won't spend $600 on high end stuff to start, but just get a used OEM clutch and flywheel for test fitting.
There were also major issues in the past with Spec, and some had issues with the ring gear on some flywheels. I'm also tempted to use an AASCO flywheel with a stock pressure plate and a centerforce dampened disc.
Just trying to do something different. I think clutches are an absolute ripoff for our cars at their pricepoint, especially considering they use stock pressure plates.
I hear ya. *Supposedly* Spec / CM changes out the tongues in the PP for stronger ones, but who knows if true...
Originally Posted by screaminz28
A lightweight flywheel and clutch for a K series is about half the price of the setup for a J. Just as Robert finds different internals that work, why not try the same for clutches? I won't spend $600 on high end stuff to start, but just get a used OEM clutch and flywheel for test fitting.
Lucky bastids
Originally Posted by screaminz28
There were also major issues in the past with Spec, and some had issues with the ring gear on some flywheels. I'm also tempted to use an AASCO flywheel with a stock pressure plate and a centerforce dampened disc.
Yea they worked it out on mine, so any future orders should be good on the ring gear. Mine works fine now.
You have seen p2r's j32a2 stock internals dyno put down 270 wtq, unless you think they are exaggerating?
I have, but I've also seen 3.5s and 3.6s dyno 260-270wtq with apparently 'more mods' than P2Rs 3.2. Not to mention no other 3.2 has come close to 260, let alone 270. I certainly don't believe they lied, but I'm still skeptical that their 3.2 only had bolt ons just based on the fact that no other 3.2 has come close to those torque numbers.
Only reason I said anything is because I see you throwing around the 270 number like it's normal. Mid 240s is more of the norm for a bolt on J32 based on numerous dynos.
I have, but I've also seen 3.5s and 3.6s dyno 260-270wtq with apparently 'more mods' than P2Rs 3.2. Not to mention no other 3.2 has come close to 260, let alone 270. I certainly don't believe they lied, but I'm still skeptical that their 3.2 only had bolt ons just based on the fact that no other 3.2 has come close to those torque numbers.
Only reason I said anything is because I see you throwing around the 270 number like it's normal. Mid 240s is more of the norm for a bolt on J32 based on numerous dynos.
Let's not forget that it was TUNED on Aem ems. Are there any other 3.2 dynos out there that have 270tq? If anyone could locate that, i'd like to see it
You can get a lightweight flywheel with any stage clutch, not just stage 3. If you like the OEM feel, just get a stage 1 or 2 clutch.
I am not even gonna lie.. I get confused most times i read here.. One min something cant be done then the next it can... I thought on base TL you had to do stg3 clutch to do flywheel.. Correct me if im wrong but you're telling me i can go with my oem clutch with p2r disk n lightweight flywheel?
03-05-2015, 08:17 PM
plus the weight savings are there, and that's what you want.
