I hate cars

I went ahead and pulled the bandpass out to get some trunk space back and get rid of some weight. I decided mid way to install one of my W6s in an infinite baffle configuration for 3-4 weeks until my AE IB15" subs get here. What I was hoping for was just a little fill in the sub bass area. What I got was a whole lot more.

I asked JL directly and was told not to use the W6 in this configuration. Never listening to others,I did it anyway and the results are very good.

I did only one sub mounted in the center so with the pass through open the sub is right there. I used expanding foam and did a 10 minute sealing job of larger holes but nothing fancy. This was a very quick and cheap installation since it will only be in for a few weeks. So basic sealing of some holes, a piece of 3/4" MDF quickly cut out as a baffle plate and some wood screws through the stock bracing to hold it all in place.

As I've always said, I had to keep the gains way down on the bandpass because it was very efficient. Now some of the following makes no sense to me, maybe others can explain it....

I had to turn the gains up with the single IB sub to get the bass to match the highs as it did before. However, it took way less power than the old sealed box did. Maybe I'm misinformed but I thought IB was very inefficient. I would say based on the gain setting, this configuration is slightly less efficient than the bandpass but way more efficient than a sealed box.

At max volume and with some very low end material playing, the W6 is not close to bottoming out. There's a good bit of excursion there but no where near the danger zone. I'm very, very surprised at the output. I was expecting just a little fill, not a decently loud system.

Sound is amazing. I crossed it at 80hz and it plays up there just fine. The bottom end is where it really shines. It's going to take a little eq to take some of the bottom out of it but that's better than having to boost it to gain missing bottom end. This setup plays LOW. It gets into bass that you can feel but barely hear yet it goes up to 80hz just fine. I can't get over the impact of the bass. It hits tight and quick on country music but plays rap great. The bandpass was awesome in that it went fairly low and sounded great on every type of music. I'm not ready to say this sounds better but it does hit the lows much better, it gets lower period, and the top end seems just as good.

I have some tuning to do, as of now I threw it together and just turned it on without any tuning at all.

Somehow the rattles in the rear deck that I used to have with the sealed box are gone. Not sure if it's the foam that I put in there or the fact that I had not yet reinstalled the two side panels that go above the rear deck. Too soon to say it does not rattle. As of now I have more than 3/4 of the trunk to use. Just the W6 in the center and no other visible audio stuff.

I'm excited to do the upcoming IB15s but I believe if I had done this project first I never would've ordered the 15s. A single 12 W6 is enough for any daily driving situation. A second one would be nice if you were planning on really cranking it but I'm really surprised at the output of the single 12. I can't imagine what the two 15s made for IB are going to sound like. I have a feeling I won't be using 1/4 of their output. In fact I'm considering using only one of them and maybe giving one to a friend.

So the myth of an IB setup not having impact and SPL is completely busted. The SQ is great right now and I have a feeling that I'm going to like it more than the bandpass once I get some tuning done. And best of all I've only added 20lbs in subs over stock and I have nearly the entire trunk to use.

I do have to say that since my car has no dynamat except in the doors I will likely have to add some in the trunk and especially on the trunk lid.

eggyhustles

Not to down biggs, but that miracle box doesn't seem it was a miracle box after all.

chasemyTL

Nice. good to hear some real results. you have any pictures yet of the setup?

BukvaMan

Yea i wish we could see some pictures to get a better idea on what you really did

I hate cars

I'll post some pics. Just remember this is a quick temp setup so its not pretty.

ParaSurfer1979

I did IB 8 in my 08 accord with 200watt amp running all amps into a Audio control LC7 and It sounded great. I dynamat'd doors and whole rear deck because i had changed mids/highs too. When I put in the infinity speakers I'll dynamat the doors, center speaker, & rear deck (including stock sub to tighten bass). Very good wright-up. The www. guys swore against my set-up but i needed trunk space for my wheel chair when people needed to ride up front.

Chad05TL

I am going to find that post where I told people to forget the box and use the trunk like a box. Basically, the rear seat and the trunk and the rear deck act like a box. Because it separates the front of the speaker from the rear of the speaker. And that’s all you need! No one believes or believed me because they never tried it! I almost could not finish reading your post without jumping out of my skin and posting because I already know what you are experiencing.

Some other people also told me to use a box.. They just want to sell you a box or a bag of goods or they say that out of unknowingness.. So I say forget the box if you can, and reuse the factory wires for the smaller speakers if you can! It will save you time and effort to wire them up and you won't notice a change in SQ. But for the woofers, I normally use thicker gauge cable for extra current carrying capability.

And- I bet it’s not pretty! Good sound does not equate to “prettiness”. Speakers don't know if it’s pretty and they don't know the difference between an IB system or a ported system. Both have the same effect on the speaker itself, which is nearly nothing. Meaning: there is no resistance behind the speaker, unlike a Sealed Box. Sealed boxes STOP the woofer from moving and they resist every movement of the woofer! It’s no wonder sealed boxes are 1/2 (or less) as efficient because the very principle behind “sound”; are vibrations that reach and enter your ear causing your eardrum to move. So if you use a sealed box, you better hit the speaker with like 1,000 watts to get any sound out of it! People don't seem to understand that! Ported boxes and IB type setups are far more efficient than sealed boxes because the speaker can moooove....

Try this: with your rear seat out, and the rear deck cover is off, you have this gaping hole in the middle that the seat normal covers. And you probably have many holes in the rear deck too.. it comes that way from the factory. Now loosen the mounting screws on the 6.5" speakers but don’t remove the speakers.. At this point you should agree there is no "box" around the speakers. Meaning nothing is seals or even “surrounds” the speaker and even the rear seat is out.. And just for grins, open the trunk too.. So, now, there is nothing "acting" like a box. All you have is a WHOLY rear deck and a rear seat that is gone, which revealed a 2 foot hole and even the rear trunk is open.. Now, turn on your radio or cd player, and lift 1 of the 6.5" speakers out of the hole while its playing. Listen a second or two, and then lower it back down into the hole. You will notice that the tone/sound becomes much more bassy when it is in the hole! Raise and lower it a few more times to compare. You will be shocked to hear the difference at a normal volume or any volume (doesn’t have to be loud). Now if it makes that much difference with just having a wholly baffle between the front side and the rear side of the speaker, (which is the rear deck), and while the seat is out of the car and the trunk is open, then it's working even better when you put it all back together. This “free air or low resistance movement” allows for a super efficient speaker system. So IMO, the only difference between a ported or an IB system and a sealed box is basically how much money you want to throw away and how much sound you want to come out! You can reduce the amount of amplifier power needed just by using a ported box an IB system which both allow the speaker to move freely! I think PORTED and IB are EQUAL except IB is much lighter! The speaker itself doesn’t know if the box is ported or if its IB.. All it “see’s” are outside forces.. And only a sealed box has outsode forces on the woofer. So, anyone who does understand this simply has not tried it yet. I tried telling people that a year ago to forget the box... I'm going to find that old post!! Haha Credit: my grandfather was the first one to tell me that years ago. I thought he was being crazy too. And sorta "old fashion".. But he was right.

I had a 3rd gen Iroc once, and there is a hole in the back that is used for storage. Well, when my sub Box was stolen, I used a piece of PLYWOOD and 2 6x9 speakers to cover the hole. My friends were literally BUG EYED and how good it sounded!!! It was not sealed or glued or ported or anything. Just I used the hole - like the back side of the box - and I put the speakers in the plywood and covered the hole. SAME PRINCIPLE as mounting the speakers in the rear deck and using the trunk as a BOX! Even back then when the system was on, I lifted the plywood (and speakers) to access the amp down under.. and nearly all the sound went away (except for the tweeters).. but when I lowered the plywood and speakers down to cover the hole, all the sound came back.. what a trip. It was educational to say the least.

IHC.. will you have to lower your rear suspension now without all that extra weight? haha And btw, sorry to hear you bought those 15's before you found out about this. I swear I tried telling people that about on this website about 6month to a year ago.. But I want to see your foam you sprayed. Even if it looks bad, I don’t care.. I know "sound" doesn't care either. Just trying to get people convinced on here is a different story.



fyi, the only reason I was considering a box in my other post was because I already have these 2 12" JL's. But I may just sell them and get a 8W7 and mount it in the hole. Save on weight and space.. Did you say you have a 10 or a 12 installed? I'd like to see that.

I hate cars

Good post, Chad. I just ripped all of the wiring, amps, eq, etc out of the car to start over. I'll take pics in a few minutes.

The top of the line IB subs are only $120 each. I could always sell you a new in the box sub for a 10% savings if you're considering going that way. I think two of them is just too much for me.

Going to finish this wiring real quick so I can listen to it on the way to work tomorrow and I'll get some more info/pics when I get done. Forgot the camera again so it will have to be from my crappy Droid.

Chad05TL

I'm glad you said crappy droid. because I was thinking about getting one but I saw actual pictures and video taken by droid x and by iphone.. and iphone still wins.. ( I think) ..but I hate iphone. So, I'm still waiting for a camera that beats or meets iphone in everyway because I dont like itunes and being locked into apple.

I hate cars

It's a good phone but frustrating. I have the Droid II Global and I got the gf a Droid X for Christmas. The biggest issue I have with these is they forget that they're primarily made for talking. I can get on the internet with one touch but there are so many steps required to make a phone call depending on what screen you're coming from. All of the features are nice but I use my cheap work Nextel for a lot of my calls because you just flip it open and dial. On WiFi my Droid is actually quicker than my old computer and my laptop but I only use that at Starbucks which is pretty rare. Picture quality isn't bad. I think mine is 5mp and the X is 8mp. It records video in 720p. I have 8 videos of my friend's twin turbo V12 Mercedes dynoing and the quality is ok but the light management is not very good. I think the software could be improved upon. It also won't let me upload these videos straight to the compter with the USB cord and they're too big to text or e-mail without a WiFi connection.

Back to the IB install now that I have more time with it....

I can see how a single 12 *might* not be enough if you're going down the freeway with the windows down and you're really wanting to crank it. I have no measurements so it's kind of subjective. It gets to the point where the hair on my head is vibrating and I can feel it in my chest but looking at the amount of excursion I don't think I would push it anymore than this.

I told you they were rough. Here are some pics during the install. I ripped all of the wiring out and started all over. It was a fire hazard the way it was. I reused the baffle plate for the bandpass and just made some quick rough cuts with the jig saw in the car.

I hate cars

I did one twice by accident. Meant to use this one...



Apparently I need to check the picture size on my phone.

Stepien20

iTrader: (1)

These are the only pictures i've ever seen of your TL. Haha why is that?!

I hate cars

I've posted a lot of pictures in the suspension section, mostly on the subject of tires and a-spec springs.

Off topic but it does sit about 1/4-3/8" higher in the rear but it looks good.

Chad05TL

IHC has posted some of these pics once before.. And I have not been on a-zine as long as him.. but I still dont know his name but he showed his car pics once...

but anyways... what I see is the same thing I have been talking about for, forever.. "the trunk = the box". And if the front side of the speaker is separate from the backside of the speaker, it works! And it works good.... Doesn't have to be pretty...

So I think the thing to learn from this is, no matter how crude the installation, when you block off the backside of the speaker from the front side, you get great sound.

So I would forget about a sealed box forever!!!

And I would choose an IB setup over a ported box IF it looked good. Because an IB system is lighter weight than a ported box.. but I think it still sounds just as good.

I hate cars

Just another boring update. I do these partially as a way to log what I do. I'm falling in love with this setup. I didn't have to cut the low end afterall. Once the car is moving, it sounds balanced. If I'm just sitting still with no road and wind noise it's a little overpowering.

I used to run the crossover as high as 90-100hz but this setup does not sound good past 80. Once I backed it down to about 75 things started sounding much better.

I was listening to NIN with a huge dynamic range and it's just flawless. In one track it has upper sub bass then tight hard hitting bass and then it goes looooow and it plays it all flawlessly.

Chad05TL

That won't interfere with the seat will it? I'm wondering how much does a W7 excursion? How much extra room do you need to allow for speaker movement? And btw, you're right.. those pictures are small. Even my 2nd gen razr takes bigger pictures than that. haha (working from home today, icey roads)

phampau

Just to double check, you are listening with the seat up and armrest down correct?

jda123

Please let us know how this works with larger power and with a driver designed to perform in IB. I can only suspect that the IB will outperform the w6 since it was made to?

I am also interested to see how this would work with higher wattage 1000+. I am a high-powered sealed guy, but I could be convinced to go IB someday...

Looks good.

I hate cars

So far, watt for watt it seems more efficient than sealed. I guess the downside is it will hit it's full excursion at a lower power level so all in all IB probably won't go as loud as sealed. The part that makes no sense to me is I thought output was cone area vs excursion. I can't quite understand why it matters at what power level it hits full excursion as long as it hits it.

jda123

There is cone acceleration too. Put you hands on the sub and push to full excursion. Did you hear anything? Probably not because you didn't push it fast enough... but the cone did make full excursion.

The theory is always hard to figure on this stuff since academically speaking all speakers can be flat from 20-20,000 and size does not matter. However, in the real world where manufacturers have to take price point and design into consideration, then some stuff is just better for some things than others are... this is why I am really interested to see how a IB sub does in that spot.

Efficiency would also have to factor in any leakage between sealed and IB.

I hate cars

Very good point. Acceleration, that's the missing piece to my puzzle, thanks.

I'm looking forward to the IB15s but this setup is "good enough" that the motivation to install the 15s is starting to lack. I'm sure once they come in the motivation will come back.

I plan to fully seal it to get the most out of the W6 so I can give a fair comparison to an actual IB sub. If I had the time and money I would love to install a single IB12 to go against my single 12W6 just to directly compare an IB specific driver to a driver that even their own engineer said would not work IB.

jda123

The company engineers always have to be safe. This is the same reason why the Redline guys said not to use Type F in the Acura even though they probably knew that it was OK. I guess that we also don't know the long-term impact of using the W6 in IB - it could be that it will work fine for a year or two and then all of a sudden the voice coils may fall out.

The great thing about the interest in IB is that better products will be available soon.

Hey - how are you going to keep stuff in your trunk from getting into the basket... or keep the magnet from picking up metal junk in your trunk? Some sort of basket with some netting or something?

BukvaMan

IHC, i dont know if you remember but some while ago i sent you images of my install. It is a front firing 12" Boston G5 Sub in a sealed box. I built side panels onto the box securing them to the Rear Seat frame to seal it off from the back. It never sounded just right, a little unbalanced and boomy. I believe the reason for it cause it did act as a Band-pass design as we came to conclusion later on. Now since you did the IB design and told that it sounded really good i asked myself how come mine doesn't since its almost the same design with just a sealed box behind the wall. So i thought about it and came to the conclusion that I must be having leaks causing cancellations. So what i ended up doing is stuffing Small and big towels around the speaker and any place i could. I basically have the sub firing trough the arm rest with no chance in the world anything coming back , its that sealed. And the results were stunning, my lows came back big time, everything altogether got much louder, lowering windows had almost zero effect on volume levels and no matter how loud i put it everything seemed controlled. After a while i just couldn't do any comparisons anymore as my teeth where shaking. It really pounded hard to my surprise and thats running of a alpine pdx 600.1

BukvaMan

Im also thinking to get this Sub http://www.bostonacoustics.com/SPG555-P567.aspx and sell my 2 12" boston G5's.

It would fit perfect trough the armrest.

Majofo

I hate cars

Glad you got it worked out! From what I remember you've been struggling with the sound for a long time. So it was cancellation all along, huh?


I thought I would post a review now that I've had a few days worth of driving with the new setup. The longer I run it the more I like it. It's usually the opposite, the longer I run something the more flaws I notice.

First, the difference over the bandpass. It would be the lows. The bandpass had no problems hitting 30hz so it was not lacking. But the IB setup feels like it gets the whole chassis vibrating. Not the annoying rattles, but like the whole car is flexing.

What I love about this is it sounds so natural. There are some songs where I have to check that the sub is on by turning them off. Once I turn it off I realize that it was playing the whole time but it blends so well that I don't notice if the song doesn't have a lot of low end. This setup blends extremely well with the mids.

Another plus that I can't explain is the IB seems less fatiguing on the ears at the same volume. I can't explain this one but sometimes when I would get out of the car with the bandpass cranked my ears would be ringing for an hour. I haven' t had that problem with this setup yet.

Outside of the car it's surprisingly quiet. At what sounds like the same volume inside the car, if you step outside it sounds like I'm running a stock subwoofer. That's a good thing for me but if you like to be heard, this isn't the setup for you.

Supposedly at the same volume level, the 15s are less likely to generate rattles in the baffle area because the excursion is something like 1/6th as much.

It still amazes me every time I have something on that has a bunch of tight punchy bass and then it throws a low note in there. I'm never expecting it to go that low and be so tight at the same time.

The downside is it's going to require some dynamat. It will go surprisingly loud without the rattles but it will rattle both inside and outside of the car if turned up high enough. This was where the bandpass really excelled.

The bandpass will also play much higher and still sound good. That's not always necessary but it's nice to have the option to run it as high as 100hz if needed. Supposedly the IB15s will play flat out past 500hz but the W6 starts to sound "weird" past 80 in this setup.

For some reason if I open the trunk, the bass goes away. I was told this would not happen in an IB setup but apparently the trunk is acting as some sort of a huge box. It may also be because I haven't done much in the way of sealing the trunk off.

I wouldn't mind getting some opinions on what to do next. Should I go ahead and install the IB15s or should I just install my other W6? I'm extremely pleased with the sound. I know the IB15 is the ultimate IB woofer and all I hear is great stuff. However, I'm nervous about screwing up a good thing. I really wish I could demo a car with the same setup before ripping the W6 out. I already have a buyer for the 15s for what I paid for them if I choose to get rid of them.

The single W6 is plenty loud for any sort of loud daily driving. It's enough that's I've gotten punched by the gf for hurting her ears already. I'm thinking two of them should be all I'll ever need. There's very little excursion at moderate volumes.

I know no one on here has run the IB15 and the W6 back to back but I'm wondering if there is much SQ to be gained with the 15. On one hand I would like to do the 15s because I know the SQ would be awesome and I would have all of the SPL I would ever need.

On the other hand the W6s should get plenty loud and I already know they sound great. The ONLY thing is I don't want to wake up one day wanting to upgrade again.

I'm thinking the 15s solve every problem and they fit my needs perfectly. I get nearly my entire trunk back. They will go louder than I could ever want. SQ should be great. Two of the 15s are barely heavier than one W6 but they're shallower too so I gain even more trunk space. I want something that will stay in the car until it goes to the junkyard, hopefully more than 5 years from now.

I know this post is all over the place, just thinking out loud. Keep in mind, car audio is my weak point so if I sound like I don't know what I'm talking about, I probably don't. Any opinions are welcome.

I hate cars

Oh, and Roger (Triod), if you're out there you have to stop by and listen, I need as many opinions as possible.

I took one of my bass head friends for a ride and it was pointless. Even with the subs completely overwhelming the highs to the point you could barely hear the lyrics he thought it had too much midrange. He hates JL because it's mainstream even though he admits they have good products. He's looking into a system for his Porsche and at 32 years old the only goal is to have an SPL monster regardless of how it sounds. He will only do a single ultra high excursion 12" because he wants people to be wowed that it's just a single 12. So he thought mine sounded ok but that's about all I got from him.

Chad05TL

It is more efficient-
It will go just as loud but with less power.-
Sealed boxes reduce excursion. So more power is needed to make it move. -
I already said all that. matt. haha

jda123

Don't forget to factor in that you don't know how long the W6 will hold up in free air. For all that we know, they could last a month... or 10 years.

Ultimately, the rest of it is up to you.

I hate cars

I don't see any reason it won't hold up forever as long as I don't bottom it out. As of now it's no where close to bottoming. I know it doesn't have some of the features of a dedicated IB sub such as a suspension that stops it from self destructing should I push it too far. I'm hopeful that with two of them I won't be anywhere near the limit. Maybe there's something I'm overlooking?

I guess one option is to push this single sub hard until I make the decision. If it holds up, I should be good with two of them later on should I decide to stick with the W6.

These subs have been in just about every automotive type enclosure. Sealed, ported, bandpass, and now IB. I think that does it for the common enclosures. In a way I'm glad that I've kept the same subs so I take that factor out of the different types of enclosures.

Almost forgot, I've been running these at 8 ohms this entire time. With the single sub at 8 ohms it's not getting much power at all but it's surprisingly loud.

I hate cars

I'm also thinking about getting some subframe connectors and beefing up the X braces. I don't want the car flexing and cracking the baffle that's solidly mounted to the chassis.

csmeance

You might want to beef up the rear deck and those bars that hold up and connect the car behind the seats. As well, you might want to consider taking out the rear deck and properly foaming/sealing it to prevent future rattles!

Quick question, did you do all the design work for the box yourself or is there some sort of program/equations for it?

I hate cars

Those bars are what I meant by an X brace but I said the wrong thing. Many cars use them in an X behind the seats, I forgot the TL is a triangle. But you're right, beefing these up and even adding two more to make it into an X might very well be worth it to stop the torsional flex.

I did some basic foaming of the large holes but there's still a lot to do. I'm just waiting for the time to do it now.

I modeled the W6 vs the IDQ 15 in winisd before attempting the install. I heard "Neel's" TL with two IDQ15s at Acurafest so I had something to compare it to. It showed the W6 being very similar but with more low end and a lot less SPL. So I knew it would at least sound ok before I attempted it. There's no box, just a baffle plate to mount the sub to. Very, very simple design. It cost me a total of $15 to make not counting the foam.

csmeance

Just so I understand correctly, you mounted the sub to that wooden structure (basically dropped in) to separate the sounds from the front of the woofer from the back (avoid cancellation) and that was it? Also isn't this kinda of like a free air subwoofer, but the front is sealed off from the rear?

I hate cars

Exactly. To my understanding they call it an IB in car audio because the trunk still has a small effect on it. I guess technically to call it a free air it would have to be vented to the outside of the car.

Now that I've run the same subs in every common configuration in the same car and with the same amp, I can honestly say that the IB config sounds the best by far. This is the setup I can see myself using for the long haul.

I hate cars

Another thing I've forgotten to mention is I had the low end ~30hz heavily boosted with the bandpass. When I installed the new setup I zeroed everything out. With no boost it's almost too much when standing still and about perfect when the car is moving.

dzionny_dzionassi

anyways, IB setup is the best, it gives you natural, warm sounding bass, needs a lot less powerful amp. I am very happy how it sounds in my acura, in future i will do more reinforcement for my rear deck and add aftermarket amp. I did same thing IHC did, used alot foam to seal my interior from my trunk, but i have my woofer installed in stock location. The only rattle i am getting is from parts inside seat belt tensioner.

I hate cars

I hope I'm not making a mistake. Put the W6s for sale in the BM. I've been going back and forth so much that I just put them for sale so I couldn't change my mind. I've never had such a hard time making a simple decision. Now I wish they sounded like crap so it would be an easier decision.

Chad05TL

well you could wait a few months... and sell them in the spring.. after you get your system setup.. whats the rush? You may even get a few more bux. used speakers dont have much of a resale anyway.

Acuraluvr

iTrader: (2)

So really you build a plate and seal the sides from the front of the car to the back? Would this be a permanent fixture?