sai_iii

So I had a Pioneer Premier TS-SW841D laying around, and I was always curious as to why no one here has tried swapping our sub with this sub. So I bit the bullet and decided to try it out. I went to Circuit City and they told me that they could easily put it in for me. Sorry about the picture quality, I took them with my iphone camera

I was surprised with the quality of the the stock sub! Sure its paper cone, but it still looks pretty sturdy.


Fits in the stock sub hole perfect!


Lots of room to spare


The mount holes didn't line up, so new ones were drilled. When the installer placed the rear deck back on top, it rattled quite a bit since the sub seemed to be hitting the rack. So he came up with putting plastic spacers about the mount holes and using longer screws. Didn't solve the problem completely but did help.


Now what everyone is waiting to read: How it sounds. Well, I have mixed feelings about the result and I have a few issues.

First and more importantly I am using the stock amp, and since the sub is 4 ohms its not really getting enough power, and there is actually less bass then before... and when the bass really hits it still rattles the rear deck quite a bit. I am a little dissappointed though on how it sounds, in the front seats its as if the sub is almost non-existant, but when sitting in the rear seats the bass from the sub is much more pronounced.

However I am impressed with the fact that it sounds somewhat decent in a free air application, and I think if I amp it and give it somemore power it will sound alot better. Also I'm not exactly sure how to stop the rattling either... I was thinking of putting some type of soft material on the underside of the rear deck?

I'm going back tomorrow to Circuit City to swap out the door and rear speakers with Polk DB651's so I might amp the sub and see what the installer can do about the rattling, but I'm seriously considering just putting the stock sub back in and leaving it alone. I like the way the stock sub sounds and my main objective was to just swap the sub and gain just a little more thump. I really didn't want to add an amp in my car, and it still rattles pretty annoyingly. But the sub it self does sound good, I think its just underpowered.... UGH, sorry If if seems like I'm ranting, anyone that might have some advice?

Elegant TYPE S

iTrader: (2)

I dont want to sound like an ass, but I have to ask this. Did you do any research before dropping this guy in? Is this even a free air sub, I tried to pull up the specs on it and it seems like it might be but I'm not 100% positive. If it isn't that's probably why it sounds like crap on top of the inadequate power. There are only a hand full of "free air" subs that fit our stock location and I believe JL makes one and someone has done with a little modification, if you search.

I'm not surprised at all that circuit shity didn't advise you otherwise. As far as rattling, do a search on that too and you'll see countless solutions that you can do yourself, within 10 mts. You don't even have to take the rear deck apart, but the best would be to dynamat the rear deck.

sai_iii

Yes, I have researched this, and I think I have pretty much read every thread on this board about replacing the stock sub, did you read my first sentence? The sub CAN be used free-air, and it doesn't sound that bad, just underpowered(The installer also agreed with me and suggessted an amp). Also sorry for the confusion, the rattling isn't from the rear deck where the sub is mounted, it is from the rear deck cover. Since that is just a plastic cover, I'm not going to dynamat that, but I'm not sure what to use... I was thinking maybe some duct tape or velcro, so that that the surface is soft and won't rattle against the metal rear deck.

tech14

I used a product called Ensolite to eliminate rattles. It is cheap, and made by Raam Audio, I would recommend. You can see how I applied it to the underside of my rear deck cover on my install thread.

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-audio-bluetooth-electronics-navigation-94/tech14-complete-audio-installation-643839/

sai_iii

Thanks that looks like exactly what I need!

sai_iii

Update:

So I went to another Circuit City to get my DB651's installed (the store I originally went to didn't have the speakers in stock) and what a big difference those polk's made. So much more clear sound.

Now for the Sub, the installer this time around said the spacers were unneccssary and claimed that there was no way for the sub to actually hit the cover. He removed the spacers and re-installed the cover (Apparently the previous installer didn't make sure the cover snapped back in place properly). The sub then sounded good with no rattles.

However, there was still the big problem of the sub being under-powered. So I decided to amp it. Since I didn't need that much power to amp the sub (150W RMS) I just got a 2/1 channel 800w max Sony amp. It was an open box item and a pretty good deal at $81.99. It was mounted on the back of my seats and covered the slip-through but I don't really use that at all. I'm just happy 99% of my trunk space is still there.

Amplified, the sub hits well. With the gain just turned slighty up, the sub would hit pretty hard for an 8 inch sub. However, the sub hits so hard now, that the rear deck cover rattles again when the bass hits hard.

So I think I will try some of that ensolite material, or I might even go the the hardware store and get some jute. I might dynamat as well. After watching the rear deck being removed twice, I'm pretty confident that I can take it apart myself now.

Finally, the whole point of this was to finally come up with a way to replace the stock sub without using any extra trunk space. If I can solve this rattle problem I think that this is a perfect solution to replacing it. You just have to take the extra step and amplify it. I'll keep everyone updated.

tech14

When I took out my rear seat and installed my speakers in the rear deck, I made sure I would only have to do it once. I did not want to take any chances of having rattles if I didn't apply sound deadening. So I decided to use ensolite and apply sound deadening to the metal just to be sure. I am not touching that rear deck again, it was a pain. Here is a good website on different sound deadening materials.

http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/

sai_iii

Yeah I admit I was a little gung-ho about this whole precedure and time was a bit limited for me, but I really do appreciate your help!

mattster

Interesting solution. Go with what you like.

Me, I like a 10w3v3 in a sealed fiberglass enclosure.

sai_iii

Update, So I was fiddling with my rear deck cover to try and isolate the rattles, and I found out that some of the loudest rattles were from the latch covers! I suppose I shouldn't be surprised (hard plastic on top of hard plastic).

I moved all the covers up to the lock postions and the rattles coming from them disappeared! This was somewhat relieving as it eliminated alot of the rattles, but not all of them. When the really deep bass hits, it just rattles the entire deck cover.

Overall though after some dedicated listening, I'm still pretty pleased, much more rich bass (though it won't ever THUMP, but I wasn't really aiming for that). I'll keep everyone posted when I eliminate the rattles.

Elegant TYPE S

iTrader: (2)

I'm glad you weren't one of those that didn't search like I assumed so my apologies in the first post. It looks like you've provided solutions to the problems, but just out of curiosity how much was the cost of the setup? I'm in a similar position so I was actually just going to remove my stock sub out, and get a custom enclosure tucked away into the corner of my trunk with a 12" woofer.

sai_iii

I spent about a total of $250 so far. I got the sub really cheap: $50, the amp for around 100 after taxes ($81.99+$15 for 4 yr protection plan), $50 for amp install kit, and about another $50 for labor. If you are going this route I would highly suggest doing some type of sound deadening like tech14 did as well if you already have the rear deck out because with the extra bass the rear deck cover will rattle.

sai_iii

Update:

So I tried out some closed cell foam and glued it to the rear deck cover very similar to tech14, and it didn't solve any of the rattles

It is dissappointingly the rear deck itself that is rattling. Sigh, I suppose now my next route is to dynamat, although I really didn't want to go through all of this effort. I'm starting to regret doing all of this. It just seems like a never ending process lol. I'll keep every one posted.

dgracer

When you swapped in the Polk DB651's, did you amp those as well?

sai_iii

No I didn't, they are plenty loud for me as is and sound good. Ironically, one blew tonight in the rear deck. Guess its back to Circuit City...

Elegant TYPE S

iTrader: (2)

LoL. Thats how I feel about modding in general. Just when you think you're done, you come onto the forum and see someone else do something that you like and want. Haha! Trust me after the Dynamat you're not done, you're only done for the time being.

ssmtl2nv

iTrader: (2)

final verdict???

HQTL6SPD

They will keep blowing since they are waay underpowered, should of done it right from the start....

sai_iii

Not sure yet, I'm going to dynamat the rear deck, then I will give final verdict.

Ehh, I don't want to start a whole internet forum war, but I simply do not believe that underpowering a speaker kills them. I have never ever amped my speakers unless it was a sub, and this is the frist time I've ever blown a speaker. Honestly, it was probably my fault; I was turning the volume up kinda high at times (25 some times) to try and isolate rattles. I DO believe in breaking in speakers

sai_iii

Update, Alright here is the post that everyone will want to read. So I finally go back to Circuit City to get one of my DB651's looked at and the installer claimed the speaker was defective and replaced it for me. However he didn't have enough time for me today to install the dynamat.

So I went to Best Buy and they fit me in accordingly. The installer at Best Buy seemed to be much more knowledgeable than the people I have been dealing with at Circuit City and he proved to be very much so. He proceeded to listen to the rear deck and take it apart, and comes to the conclusion that it is the speaker it self that is causing the rattling noise.

Apparently even though the gain on the amp wasn't turned up very high at all it was still sending too much power to the sub and the rattling noise that I was hearing was actually the sub itself distorting. Remember this sub is only rated at 120W RMS.

So what he did was simply turn the amp down and the sub sounded alot better. The difference was night and day almost. The bass was much clearer and was louder because of that. Now again, with heavy bass songs it will make a rattle type sound, but again its just the actual sub distorting. He actually looked over the rear deck and felt that any dynamat put on the rear deck would be a waste of money for me, since he felt the difference would be so minimal.

SO FINAL VERDICT:

I am now completely satisfied with this sub replacement now that I have seemingly worked out all the kinks. I am by no-means a car audio expert, or even that big of an audiophile; however I do feel that I have learned alot throughout this entire experience.

This sub virtually is a drop in sub that will work well as a free air sub in our stock location that would require no real modification other than an amp to power it.

HOWEVER, I will stress this: I ONLY recommend the sub if you are willing to accept the fact this sub WILL NOT THUMP. This sub will provide more rich and clear bass, but it will never come close to sounding like sealed 10" or 12" enclosure subs. Also it is somewhat easy to overpower this sub and make it distort, since it is being used free air.

But again, It is a good mod I believe for those looking for a more enhanced bass coming from our stock sub, otherwise just leave it alone or get a custom enclosure.

TOTAL COSTS:

Sub Pioneer TS-SW841D - Me($50), can be found for around ($80-$90)
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...llow/TS-SW841D

Amp (Some Sony amp, don't know model#) - Me($100), any amp will do.
Amp install kit - $50

So, if you do all the labor,(which if I could have if I weren't at school at the moment), this can easily be done for around $200-$250 depending on what kinda amp you get.

CONCLUSION:

My intention for all of this was to provide a legitimate aftermarket sub-replacement for our stock subs, and after a little bit of headache, I think I have come up with a possible solution. Any constructive feedback is welcome. Big thanks to Tech14 for providing the useful links.

thelinux

Do this and let me know.
With your ignition key at 'I' position and radio off, move your ear close to DB651 door speakers. Can you hear any static, hissing sound from them? I am thinking to upgrade my front speakers later sometime but I would like to make sure that this won't happen.

mattster

Sorry, I can't just let that one go by without chiming in. I agree I don't want to start a war but I say this in the spirit of giving information that will help someone else in the future. So my apologies ahead of time.

It's a hell of a lot easier to blow a speaker by UNDERPOWERING it than it is by overpowering it. Many speakers can perform very well using twice their rated power. When you push an amp to the limits of it's output capacity, you encounter a phenomenon called "clipping."



The wave on the left "unclipped sinewave" shows a smooth waveform. This is the shape of your amp output signal when operating at or below its rated power. The wave on the right "Clipped Sinewave" The green dashed lines represent the output capacity of the amp, and as you can see, the second wave is exceeding that area.

Since the amp can't physically produce the wave it's being asked to, it has to clip off the top and bottom of the wave, creating a squarish cut-off. This causes the amp to overheat, operate at high distortion levels, even send DC current right into the speaker. This will either cause your speakers to fail thermally (from built-up heat caused by DC) or physically (literally being ripped apart by the square waves).

In an underpowering situation, thermal failure is generally more common, since the speaker isn't being driven beyond it's mechanical limits, rather it's being sent dirty power.

Different speakers will react differently, and the fact that you've never blown a speaker with an underrated amp doesn't mean that you should not believe it's possible.

Hopefully this will help.

I hate cars

Very good info!

Sal's Type S

iTrader: (1)

This is true when i installed my first system had i was using cheap amps that were under powering and blew a set of speakers twice when amp CLIPS after i did some readings found out why since the i always have better quality amps and rather over power em a bit to be on the safe side.

ReplayMan

iTrader: (5)

Just thought I would add to this thread, because I just installed the same sub. It is really a nice replacement sub, and being low profile I was able to have it enclosed.
After reading this thread I had the installer build a small box for it, similar to Anzbo187's project. I was afraid from the posts above...as a "Free Air" sub, it would not suffice. Here are some pics.


Mounting rings glued/stacked together allow the sub to mount flush along the deck


Carpeted


Mounted view from the trunk

J-STEELE

Hey ReplayMan, how does it hit?

PEACE!

Nick337

iTrader: (2)

This is very true, and probably the number one reason why you would blow any speaker.

ReplayMan

iTrader: (5)

Had it in about a week....and a definite improvement over the stock. More bass throughout...but not the bass you'd expect. Just not getting the full output the speaker is capable of. The installer is talking me into installing a small mono amp for the sub.

Elegant TYPE S

iTrader: (2)

That definitely looks good REPLAY.. and I agree, I bet that thing will come alive with a dedicated amp. I mean only so much can be accomplished with our puuny little stock amp. ADD THE EXTRA AMP!

Gary Mac

I appreciate all the information everyone has sharred. I am actually looking at doing the same thing. I am not impressed with the ELS sound quality. I want to replace the speakers and the sub, but I have some inherent questions. PLEASE HELP!

1. I want a system that has great sound quality. Is simply replacing the speakers sufficient for the ELS system, or do people recommend adding a amp for the speakers?

2. Are the polk's the way to go for the speakers? Crutchfield told me that they will "drop in" the present locations- with the exception of the tweeters. I was thinking about going with the Polk Components for the front and the two-ways in the rear. Any suggestions on this one?

3. Is it worth the hassle to try to "drop" a replacement sub in the factory location, or would it be less hassle to have a larger sub custom fitted in the trunk if I am going to end up amping it? It sounds like any aftermarket sub will not be powered by the factory amp.

Again, I am looking for sound quality, everyone's suggestions are appreciated.

Keanu's mrs. T

Nice looking project, did you cut into the sheet metal on the underside of the rear deck in order for the sub to be pushed up into place?

ReplayMan

iTrader: (5)

Sorry Gary Mac...your questions are really for another thread. This one is pretty much talking about the Pioneer Premier drop in sub replacement. Try searching....there's a lot of great conversations here about all your questions,

Keanu's mrs. T....no metal was cut....the box is cut to fit up against the deck...and a lot of silicon or putty was used to fill in any gaps and make it tight. We ust had to cut away the rug....to make a good seal, and L brackets secured the mounting.

ReplayMan

iTrader: (5)

Wow! Added a Kicker 400w mono amp to this Pioneer Premier sub...and it woke up. Big, big difference.
My recommendation...if your going to replace the OEM sub....amp it! Maybe, if you had the OEM sub in the box I had made...that may benefit more. Because the OEM is more efficient...the Pioneer was just not fed enough juice to perform from the OEM amp.

charisma_ck

Looks very great!!!!!!
I was wondering what would be the perfect subwoofer to replace without any modification.

I was looking at this JL 8W1V2-4 but some people say 8W3v3-4 works better.
I bought the amp already(800w peak and 350w rms Sony XM-ZR1252)

now all I need is to buy a subwoofer.

But interestingly, this Pioneer subwoofer was in my watch as well because it is a 8" and slim subwoofer.

Here is my question. I saw the subwoofer's frequency response is from 25Hz to 2500Hz. It's a subwoofer with really really high frequency. How do you feel???

I think it would have less kick power than lower frequency response subs like JL ones. Please tell me how you feel about the sub and please let me know what genre of music works best with Pioneer sub.

I mostly listen to orchestra(hollywood) OSTs, rocks, jazz, and pops.

80% instrumental and 20% vocal hehe

Thanks!

ReplayMan

iTrader: (5)

Just to let you know, the only reason I chose this speaker...is because of it's low-profile design. I planed on building the box and mounting it in it's stock location. It's low profile enabled the box not to hang too low and I still have much of my trunk space. If this is not a concern, then there are better subs out there...I like JL Audio subs.

Kebby33

I like the setup, and was thinking of doing this.

gilla_monster

iTrader: (2)

I have this same setup as sai_iii planned for this weekend. I have the TS-SW841D, a leftover 240w Alpine amp (should NOT have a problem with overpowering, ha!), a big box of dynamat, a sheet of high-quality furniture packing foam for any extra deck lid rattles, a 10 awg wiring kit, and some plastic 6.5" speaker baffles for behind the rear speakers. Since I'm not replacing the stockies, I figured putting them in rigid baffles would help them stand up to the pressure from the new sub. Planning on mounting the amp on the interior wall of the trunk and tapping the #31 slot with an add-a-fuse kit for the remote turn on lead. I'm using the speaker level inputs for my amp too. Most of these ideas came from all over this forum (for which I am very grateful), so hopefully i'm prepared. Otherwise I'm driving all over town with no backseat in until I get this right. Wish me luck. I'll let you know how it turns out. I'll try to throw in some pics too, if I can figure out how to post. Still new at this...

GlockandRoll

Do you have any pictures of this?

warrior15r

I dropped in a Pioneer Premier TS-SW841D as well. This thing is amazing but now the rear deck rattles like crazy. Has anyone done the same setup and prevented the rattling? I can use some tips. I heard dynamat may help but might not be worth it?

ReplayMan

iTrader: (5)

I did this swap and used Dynomat when installing...no rattling.