Mini Dreambox BUILD = Decisions Decisions. 2ohm or 4ohm - Dual or Single Coil
02-10-2010, 05:17 PM
#1
SHAWD 04TL is in
Thread Starter
Mini Dreambox BUILD = Decisions Decisions. 2ohm or 4ohm - Dual or Single Coil
K guys,
Finally decided on upgrading my sub in my 04TL. Im going to use the "TL DREAMBOX" theory that CSWBiggs came up with...... ONLY, IN MINIATURE FORM.
In case you don't know
https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=173
NOW you know.
So here are my thoughts.
I love music, and listen to everything, rock, top-40, jazz, but electronica seems to be my genre of choice right now. My "better half" is a country music chick, & she will be driving the car half the time. We are a familly of 4, 2 kids under 10. Trunk space is important to me. All I would require is to pump out 2-3 times better bass than the stock sub, anything more is just icing on the cake. I really only need 1 sub so a pair is not important.
The box I build has to be pushed against the back of the trunk, allowing me (or my kids) to throw whatever back there (stroller, backpacks, baseball bats, golf clubs, UPS boxes etc.) without worrying about damaging the sub. The sub must be a shallow mount speaker that will work in a bandpass enclosure.
The depth of the entire box must not exceded 10". Reason: I have a job which requires carrying several boxed shipments to UPS 4 once a week. I have calculated my space & found that I have 10 inches left after I have fully loaded my car. (10inches is the smallest measurement from the top back of the trunk to the edge of the UPS package. There maybe a bit more room along the bottom side of the trunk since the back wall is at an angle.
I want to have the bandpass ported through my armrest to get the benefit of bypassing the backseat. Plus I hate rattles in the trunk.
Thus the decision to base this box on CSWBiggs creation. I haven't messed with car audio since my high school days so I am a bit rusty. (I used to pound the mirrors off my 90 Integra with 2 15" & 1 10" lol)
I was thinking of getting this sub since it only requires a 3" mounting depth. Plus it only needs half a cubic foot of air space. Just deciding on size... 10" or 8".
Total size of the box is estimated around 32"wide (or how ever wide that back of the trunk is) X 16"high X 9.5"deep. Of course it will 2 chambered (bandpass). each chamber I expect to average out at 30"wide X 14"high X 3.5"deep (I'm deducting the 3/4 MDF wall thickness) The port will from the 2nd chamber will fire into the cabin through the armrest passthrough area.
So here is what I need help on....
#1 : Which sub?
Size 8" or 10"...definitly need to keep it under $200, the closer to $100 the better. I was looking at the Pioneer above, but you guys know more than I do. Of course it has to be a shallow mount.
Name brand is not an issue since it wont be visible from the outside of the box. ( I dont mind if its a LL Haudio, KingGood or a Halpine
)
#2 : How Many OHMS & Why
2 or 4 or ?, best bang for the buck.
#3 : Which Amp & Why
Mono, Dual Channel, or ?. OHM rate? Needs to be Under the $200 dollar mark again, sorry, have to put limits or I'll spend a fortune on myself.
#4 Box
Pretty much set on this bandpass, so PLEASE "no other suggestions" unless u have some some other kind of miracle box.
THERE YOU GO, HAVE AT IT.
I will be building the box myself, and I will update this thread with pics & choices as we go along.
Meanwhile here's a pic of me to Brighten Up your day. Stupid auto-open propane valve..... FML
Finally decided on upgrading my sub in my 04TL. Im going to use the "TL DREAMBOX" theory that CSWBiggs came up with...... ONLY, IN MINIATURE FORM.
In case you don't know
https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=173
NOW you know.
So here are my thoughts.
I love music, and listen to everything, rock, top-40, jazz, but electronica seems to be my genre of choice right now. My "better half" is a country music chick, & she will be driving the car half the time. We are a familly of 4, 2 kids under 10. Trunk space is important to me. All I would require is to pump out 2-3 times better bass than the stock sub, anything more is just icing on the cake. I really only need 1 sub so a pair is not important.
The box I build has to be pushed against the back of the trunk, allowing me (or my kids) to throw whatever back there (stroller, backpacks, baseball bats, golf clubs, UPS boxes etc.) without worrying about damaging the sub. The sub must be a shallow mount speaker that will work in a bandpass enclosure.
The depth of the entire box must not exceded 10". Reason: I have a job which requires carrying several boxed shipments to UPS 4 once a week. I have calculated my space & found that I have 10 inches left after I have fully loaded my car. (10inches is the smallest measurement from the top back of the trunk to the edge of the UPS package. There maybe a bit more room along the bottom side of the trunk since the back wall is at an angle.
I want to have the bandpass ported through my armrest to get the benefit of bypassing the backseat. Plus I hate rattles in the trunk.
Thus the decision to base this box on CSWBiggs creation. I haven't messed with car audio since my high school days so I am a bit rusty. (I used to pound the mirrors off my 90 Integra with 2 15" & 1 10" lol)I was thinking of getting this sub since it only requires a 3" mounting depth. Plus it only needs half a cubic foot of air space. Just deciding on size... 10" or 8".
Total size of the box is estimated around 32"wide (or how ever wide that back of the trunk is) X 16"high X 9.5"deep. Of course it will 2 chambered (bandpass). each chamber I expect to average out at 30"wide X 14"high X 3.5"deep (I'm deducting the 3/4 MDF wall thickness) The port will from the 2nd chamber will fire into the cabin through the armrest passthrough area.
So here is what I need help on....
#1 : Which sub?
Size 8" or 10"...definitly need to keep it under $200, the closer to $100 the better.
I was looking at the Pioneer above, but you guys know more than I do. Of course it has to be a shallow mount.Name brand is not an issue since it wont be visible from the outside of the box. ( I dont mind if its a LL Haudio, KingGood or a Halpine
)#2 : How Many OHMS & Why
2 or 4 or ?, best bang for the buck.
#3 : Which Amp & Why
Mono, Dual Channel, or ?. OHM rate? Needs to be Under the $200 dollar mark again, sorry, have to put limits or I'll spend a fortune on myself
.#4 Box
Pretty much set on this bandpass, so PLEASE "no other suggestions" unless u have some some other kind of miracle box.
THERE YOU GO, HAVE AT IT.
I will be building the box myself, and I will update this thread with pics & choices as we go along.
Meanwhile here's a pic of me to Brighten Up your day. Stupid auto-open propane valve..... FML
Last edited by TRIOD3SIGNS; 02-10-2010 at 05:19 PM.
02-10-2010, 11:58 PM
#3
SHAWD 04TL is in
Thread Starter
Great price for the JL 10", but I think it wont fit in the 3.5" mounting depth. Plus... a 1200watt mono amp under $200 HMMMM. Oh yeah, dont worry bout the box, I have all the tools & am pretty savvy with the MDF. HEH HEH
02-11-2010, 08:25 AM
#6
TL owner
first dont you wanna make sure the subs you choose will perform will in a 4th order bandpass. Not all subs work well or "shine" in that type of enclosure. Try winsid or a box build program first to get an estimate
02-11-2010, 10:32 AM
#7
Pro
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Southern California
Age: 38
Posts: 648
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
just because it looks good on the plotted hz chart....doesn't mean the speaker can handle the stress....bandpass enclosures do generate a ton of stress on the cone and the suspension components...so buy beware!
i'd call the manufacurer of your "dream sub" and see if it is bandpass friendly...
if you have any questions feel free to post....
-Jason
Trending Topics
02-11-2010, 11:31 AM
#8
SHAWD 04TL is in
Thread Starter
Trust me, I thought he was mad at me cuz he wasn't returning my call. But he called & we made up....
Thanks Jason, your info means alot to me since I have been following your build since 1983...JK LOL
But seriously, you seem to know your shyte. Is there any sub amp combo that you can recomend that will work decent in that type of enclosure?
I was considering that Pioneer, the specs say in can work both in a ported or sealed enclosure, with the space needed to be about 0.5 cubic feet. But can it handle the stres.....?????
HMMMMMM.
Oh yeah, here are specs for that sub :
http://signature.crutchfield.com/s_1...S2.html?tp=111
Also, no one touched on the 4ohm 2ohm subject
winisd does not take into account the phycial constrction of the speaker itself....
just because it looks good on the plotted hz chart....doesn't mean the speaker can handle the stress....bandpass enclosures do generate a ton of stress on the cone and the suspension components...so buy beware!
i'd call the manufacurer of your "dream sub" and see if it is bandpass friendly...
if you have any questions feel free to post....
-Jason
just because it looks good on the plotted hz chart....doesn't mean the speaker can handle the stress....bandpass enclosures do generate a ton of stress on the cone and the suspension components...so buy beware!
i'd call the manufacurer of your "dream sub" and see if it is bandpass friendly...
if you have any questions feel free to post....
-Jason
But seriously, you seem to know your shyte. Is there any sub amp combo that you can recomend that will work decent in that type of enclosure?
I was considering that Pioneer, the specs say in can work both in a ported or sealed enclosure, with the space needed to be about 0.5 cubic feet. But can it handle the stres.....?????
HMMMMMM.
Oh yeah, here are specs for that sub :
http://signature.crutchfield.com/s_1...S2.html?tp=111
Also, no one touched on the 4ohm 2ohm subject
02-11-2010, 11:40 AM
#9
Fearless DIY Guy
iTrader: (2)
You've got quite a lot of research to do before you pull the trigger on this. At an overall budget of $400, you're going to be only moderately satisfied, at best.
2-ohm vs. 4-ohm is merely a matter of response vs. power - at a lower resistance, the SQ tends to be lower, but you can supply more power to the sub, giving you the desired output, but at the expense of clearer response from the sub.
I am guessing your choice of subwoofer is articulating about crutchfield or thereabouts, I'd suggest hopping over to the car audio forums and starting digging deeper. The classifieds over there will also allow you to get a much better used amp/sub combo for your buck, to boot.
If you're so concerned about space, you can kill two birds with one stone by looking in to getting a free-air subwoofer, which work quite well for this application. It may cost a bit more, but you'll be much happier in the long run. Dynaudio makes a KILLER free-air sub, but it ain't cheap.
2-ohm vs. 4-ohm is merely a matter of response vs. power - at a lower resistance, the SQ tends to be lower, but you can supply more power to the sub, giving you the desired output, but at the expense of clearer response from the sub.
I am guessing your choice of subwoofer is articulating about crutchfield or thereabouts, I'd suggest hopping over to the car audio forums and starting digging deeper. The classifieds over there will also allow you to get a much better used amp/sub combo for your buck, to boot.
If you're so concerned about space, you can kill two birds with one stone by looking in to getting a free-air subwoofer, which work quite well for this application. It may cost a bit more, but you'll be much happier in the long run. Dynaudio makes a KILLER free-air sub, but it ain't cheap.
02-11-2010, 02:06 PM
#10
SHAWD 04TL is in
Thread Starter
You've got quite a lot of research to do before you pull the trigger on this. At an overall budget of $400, you're going to be only moderately satisfied, at best.
2-ohm vs. 4-ohm is merely a matter of response vs. power - at a lower resistance, the SQ tends to be lower, but you can supply more power to the sub, giving you the desired output, but at the expense of clearer response from the sub.
I am guessing your choice of subwoofer is articulating about crutchfield or thereabouts, I'd suggest hopping over to the car audio forums and starting digging deeper. The classifieds over there will also allow you to get a much better used amp/sub combo for your buck, to boot.
If you're so concerned about space, you can kill two birds with one stone by looking in to getting a free-air subwoofer, which work quite well for this application. It may cost a bit more, but you'll be much happier in the long run. Dynaudio makes a KILLER free-air sub, but it ain't cheap.
2-ohm vs. 4-ohm is merely a matter of response vs. power - at a lower resistance, the SQ tends to be lower, but you can supply more power to the sub, giving you the desired output, but at the expense of clearer response from the sub.
I am guessing your choice of subwoofer is articulating about crutchfield or thereabouts, I'd suggest hopping over to the car audio forums and starting digging deeper. The classifieds over there will also allow you to get a much better used amp/sub combo for your buck, to boot.
If you're so concerned about space, you can kill two birds with one stone by looking in to getting a free-air subwoofer, which work quite well for this application. It may cost a bit more, but you'll be much happier in the long run. Dynaudio makes a KILLER free-air sub, but it ain't cheap.
And about the freeair, I thought we (AZINE) had decided that freeair subs would not work in our type of vehicle. Most who have tried, have not been satisfied.
02-11-2010, 09:12 PM
#12
TL owner
winisd does not take into account the phycial constrction of the speaker itself....
just because it looks good on the plotted hz chart....doesn't mean the speaker can handle the stress....bandpass enclosures do generate a ton of stress on the cone and the suspension components...so buy beware!
i'd call the manufacurer of your "dream sub" and see if it is bandpass friendly...
if you have any questions feel free to post....
-Jason
just because it looks good on the plotted hz chart....doesn't mean the speaker can handle the stress....bandpass enclosures do generate a ton of stress on the cone and the suspension components...so buy beware!
i'd call the manufacurer of your "dream sub" and see if it is bandpass friendly...
if you have any questions feel free to post....
-Jason
i agree thats why i said just get an estimate so he could get a rough idea
02-11-2010, 10:02 PM
#13
Team Owner
A single 10w6 in the mini miracle box enclosure would be pretty nice. I don't know much about car audio, Jason is the guy to talk to. Maybe he would be nice enough to make a mini version of the miracle box based on a 10w6. I would buy one to save trunk space and keep the 2-12s for the rare occasion I want more.
What do you say Jason, two mini-miracle boxes? I still want the full size version too if it's still out of the car.
What do you say Jason, two mini-miracle boxes? I still want the full size version too if it's still out of the car.
02-11-2010, 10:06 PM
#14
Team Owner
Thanx, In that case, I think I will go with a 2ohm.... I'm not too anal about SQ. as long as I can feel it twice as much as the stock sub, I will be happy.
And about the freeair, I thought we (AZINE) had decided that freeair subs would not work in our type of vehicle. Most who have tried, have not been satisfied.
And about the freeair, I thought we (AZINE) had decided that freeair subs would not work in our type of vehicle. Most who have tried, have not been satisfied.
And I doubt you would ever need more than 250 watts if you run the miracle box. It's incredibly efficient. I'm actually running mine all the way to 100hz and many people think I'm running 8s or 10s because of the punch until they hear the low end.
02-11-2010, 10:08 PM
#15
Team Owner
02-11-2010, 10:24 PM
#16
SHAWD 04TL is in
Thread Starter
No but on a serious note, Jason, how small do you think I could make that box to fit the JL that IHC mentioned. I have set apart some time in the afternoon tomorrow to start my box. So the faster I get some response the better.... LOL
NO PRESURE, NO PRESURE....
02-12-2010, 12:59 PM
#18
SHAWD 04TL is in
Thread Starter
02-12-2010, 10:27 PM
#20
Team Owner
02-13-2010, 10:42 AM
#21
SHAWD 04TL is in
Thread Starter
02-16-2010, 01:01 PM
#23
Team Owner
Very nice! I can't wait to see how it sounds.
02-16-2010, 04:24 PM
#26
SHAWD 04TL is in
Thread Starter
02-17-2010, 06:46 PM
#27
SHAWD 04TL is in
Thread Starter
OK so my cousin has an old school zapco competition amp. Thinking bout using it , but it isn't that powerful... bridged I think it runs at like 150rms at 4ohm. 300 at 2ohm. Any suggestion before I hook it up?
I think it is supposed to be drastically underrated. So I hope it pushes the 10" well.
I think it is supposed to be drastically underrated. So I hope it pushes the 10" well.
02-17-2010, 08:26 PM
#28
Team Owner
OK so my cousin has an old school zapco competition amp. Thinking bout using it , but it isn't that powerful... bridged I think it runs at like 150rms at 4ohm. 300 at 2ohm. Any suggestion before I hook it up?
I think it is supposed to be drastically underrated. So I hope it pushes the 10" well.
I think it is supposed to be drastically underrated. So I hope it pushes the 10" well.
If this box has even close to the gain of the miracle box, 300 watts will be waaay more than enough.
When I went from a sealed box to the bandpass with the exact same 12 W6s, I had to cut the gain on the amp by over half to balance it back out. I doubt I'm pushing 300 watts right now and you've heard it.
02-17-2010, 11:33 PM
#30
SHAWD 04TL is in
Thread Starter
02-17-2010, 11:34 PM
#31
SHAWD 04TL is in
Thread Starter
If this box has even close to the gain of the miracle box, 300 watts will be waaay more than enough.
When I went from a sealed box to the bandpass with the exact same 12 W6s, I had to cut the gain on the amp by over half to balance it back out. I doubt I'm pushing 300 watts right now and you've heard it.
When I went from a sealed box to the bandpass with the exact same 12 W6s, I had to cut the gain on the amp by over half to balance it back out. I doubt I'm pushing 300 watts right now and you've heard it.
02-22-2010, 02:51 PM
#32
Suzuka Master
So.................how does it perform?
02-23-2010, 12:18 AM
#33
SHAWD 04TL is in
Thread Starter
OK, sorry guys for the delay. I was missing the symbilink adapter for the ZAPCO competion amp & I tried a pioneer amp stating 750watts.... IT WAS A NO-GO.. It kept clipping at moderate-high volume. So I decided on waiting till my symbilink adapter comes in this wednesday.
I even tried soldering my own symbilink RCA adapter out of a 6pin DINN S Video cable & some RCA. Sounded very distorted.
FML.
OH yeah, the BOX sound insanely WELL, for just 1 10" at moderate volume. (could not test at high cuz of the stupid clipping) Definitely comparable to 2 10" subs. BUT, I wouldn't quite compare it to a couple of 12's. (we'll see how it goes once I connect thew ZAPCO C300Z2).
I even tried soldering my own symbilink RCA adapter out of a 6pin DINN S Video cable & some RCA. Sounded very distorted.
FML.
OH yeah, the BOX sound insanely WELL, for just 1 10" at moderate volume. (could not test at high cuz of the stupid clipping) Definitely comparable to 2 10" subs. BUT, I wouldn't quite compare it to a couple of 12's. (we'll see how it goes once I connect thew ZAPCO C300Z2).
Last edited by TRIOD3SIGNS; 02-23-2010 at 12:21 AM.
03-03-2010, 11:17 PM
#34
SHAWD 04TL is in
Thread Starter
OMFG!
Kay soooooo, finally got around to hooking up the ZAPCO. WOW!
I don't even know how to put it into words. Crisp hard bass, smooth clean lows. (sorry don't know what else to say! that's the best I could do.)
I had to turn the gain on the ZAPCO ALLLLLLLL the way down. Sub control on the nav-screen down to the lowest setting without turning off. After I tuned the settings on the crossover, I got it to sound fantastic.... I'd even venture to say, BORDERLINE TOO-LOUD.
I can't believe it's only ONE 10"..... Right out of high school I had a combined 40" of subs in my trunk. (not tuned, just threw whatever I could fit & the most power I could afford) SOUNDED LIKE SHIT, but pounded your eyeballs out.
Well, this ONE "10 sounds at least half as hard! Great in my opinion, considering how tiny the box is.
Country : Have to turn the bass down.
Hip-Hop : BOOM!
Electronica : Hard hits & seat shaking lows!
Rock : I feel every bass cord & drum beat.
Jazz : Smooth!
At first I was skeptical about a shallow speaker. Most reviews I read were a 8-9/10. I read something about this sub not being able to reproduce certain notes. The only thing I could say is "wrong box"? THIS ONE KICKS ASS! thanks JASON!
This is even making me consider selling this one & making an even smaller box with an 8" sub! Thats how loud it is.
PS : anyone have any tips on how to record the speaker so I could upload a decent quality sample for you guys?
Kay soooooo, finally got around to hooking up the ZAPCO. WOW!
I don't even know how to put it into words. Crisp hard bass, smooth clean lows. (sorry don't know what else to say! that's the best I could do.)
I had to turn the gain on the ZAPCO ALLLLLLLL the way down. Sub control on the nav-screen down to the lowest setting without turning off. After I tuned the settings on the crossover, I got it to sound fantastic.... I'd even venture to say, BORDERLINE TOO-LOUD.
I can't believe it's only ONE 10"..... Right out of high school I had a combined 40" of subs in my trunk. (not tuned, just threw whatever I could fit & the most power I could afford) SOUNDED LIKE SHIT, but pounded your eyeballs out.
Well, this ONE "10 sounds at least half as hard! Great in my opinion, considering how tiny the box is.
Country : Have to turn the bass down.
Hip-Hop : BOOM!
Electronica : Hard hits & seat shaking lows!
Rock : I feel every bass cord & drum beat.
Jazz : Smooth!
At first I was skeptical about a shallow speaker. Most reviews I read were a 8-9/10. I read something about this sub not being able to reproduce certain notes. The only thing I could say is "wrong box"? THIS ONE KICKS ASS! thanks JASON!
This is even making me consider selling this one & making an even smaller box with an 8" sub! Thats how loud it is.
PS : anyone have any tips on how to record the speaker so I could upload a decent quality sample for you guys?
03-04-2010, 10:35 AM
#35
Chapter Leader (Southern Region)
- I hope you can post up a decent clip.. nice build btw.
03-04-2010, 01:23 PM
#36
takin care of Business in
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kansas City, MO
Age: 40
Posts: 30,994
Received 4,732 Likes
on
4,064 Posts
subscribed !!!
great install !!!
great install !!!
03-04-2010, 02:45 PM
#37
Team Owner
OMFG!
Kay soooooo, finally got around to hooking up the ZAPCO. WOW!
I don't even know how to put it into words. Crisp hard bass, smooth clean lows. (sorry don't know what else to say! that's the best I could do.)
I had to turn the gain on the ZAPCO ALLLLLLLL the way down. Sub control on the nav-screen down to the lowest setting without turning off. After I tuned the settings on the crossover, I got it to sound fantastic.... I'd even venture to say, BORDERLINE TOO-LOUD.
I can't believe it's only ONE 10"..... Right out of high school I had a combined 40" of subs in my trunk. (not tuned, just threw whatever I could fit & the most power I could afford) SOUNDED LIKE SHIT, but pounded your eyeballs out.
Well, this ONE "10 sounds at least half as hard! Great in my opinion, considering how tiny the box is.
Country : Have to turn the bass down.
Hip-Hop : BOOM!
Electronica : Hard hits & seat shaking lows!
Rock : I feel every bass cord & drum beat.
Jazz : Smooth!
At first I was skeptical about a shallow speaker. Most reviews I read were a 8-9/10. I read something about this sub not being able to reproduce certain notes. The only thing I could say is "wrong box"? THIS ONE KICKS ASS! thanks JASON!
This is even making me consider selling this one & making an even smaller box with an 8" sub! Thats how loud it is.
PS : anyone have any tips on how to record the speaker so I could upload a decent quality sample for you guys?
Kay soooooo, finally got around to hooking up the ZAPCO. WOW!
I don't even know how to put it into words. Crisp hard bass, smooth clean lows. (sorry don't know what else to say! that's the best I could do.)
I had to turn the gain on the ZAPCO ALLLLLLLL the way down. Sub control on the nav-screen down to the lowest setting without turning off. After I tuned the settings on the crossover, I got it to sound fantastic.... I'd even venture to say, BORDERLINE TOO-LOUD.
I can't believe it's only ONE 10"..... Right out of high school I had a combined 40" of subs in my trunk. (not tuned, just threw whatever I could fit & the most power I could afford) SOUNDED LIKE SHIT, but pounded your eyeballs out.
Well, this ONE "10 sounds at least half as hard! Great in my opinion, considering how tiny the box is.
Country : Have to turn the bass down.
Hip-Hop : BOOM!
Electronica : Hard hits & seat shaking lows!
Rock : I feel every bass cord & drum beat.
Jazz : Smooth!
At first I was skeptical about a shallow speaker. Most reviews I read were a 8-9/10. I read something about this sub not being able to reproduce certain notes. The only thing I could say is "wrong box"? THIS ONE KICKS ASS! thanks JASON!
This is even making me consider selling this one & making an even smaller box with an 8" sub! Thats how loud it is.
PS : anyone have any tips on how to record the speaker so I could upload a decent quality sample for you guys?
03-04-2010, 03:10 PM
#38
takin care of Business in
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kansas City, MO
Age: 40
Posts: 30,994
Received 4,732 Likes
on
4,064 Posts
man the ZAPCO amps are expensive !!!!
03-04-2010, 10:31 PM
#40
Team Owner
I missed the part about recording a sound clip. There's no way you're going to get any sort of accurate recording and even it you did, I don't think the computer speakers are going to reproduce it correctly. Gosh! Idiot!!!
On a different topic I found one receipt for the fronts.... do you think that would work?
Gosh! Idiot!!! On a different topic I found one receipt for the fronts.... do you think that would work?