Gregerst

iTrader: (1)

So I'm trying to figure out how big we can go in the doors. I don't have any issue with cutting the speaker opening on the inner panel to make it bigger I already did a little of that for my current speakers and I've already taken the dremel and cut off the plastic tab that runs around the speaker cutout on the door panel. So whats the biggest size driver people have been able to fit in the doors without hitting the door panel?

My goal is great midbass that has authority and kick and up front bass. I've really become interested in these ScanSpeak Illuminator 18WU/4741T-00. I think Jerry had them on his midbass shoot out. My concerns are depth, dia and will the speaker grill / door panel block a lot of the sound which defeats the purpose of going big. Would it be better to stay with a 6.5 that has a lot of xmax?

DiamondJoeQuimby

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6.5 w/o major surgery.

eggyhustles

doesn't ihc have a 9 in there with minimal modification?

Gregerst

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Define major surgery.

stevemk07

I am adding a 1/4" spacer to the my 3/4" mdf rings so the speakers sit closer to the grill and cabin. I also used open cell foam strippings to dampen the walls of the chamber created by the speaker and panel/grill and around the mdf ring to ensure smooth frequency response in the cabin. I went with a smaller 6" driver with a 4.5mm xmax and retained the plastic surround on the door panel adding to it dynamat on the outside and foam on the inside. The additions had such a pleasant effect on the sound that I will be adding more and improving the seal between the speaker and door panel which should also help to minimize door panel vibrations. Food for thought.

350

iTrader: (4)

There's a few 6.75" speakers that say they fit in a 6.5" opening, not sure if it would make much of a difference though.

Gregerst

iTrader: (1)

Interesting. I have the doors covered in ensolite which did help brighten the midrange. I thought about making something like an Elizabethan Collar, for lack of a better description, to help seal the space between the speakers and door panel.


The mids I have now are considered 6.75" or oversized 6.5. I had to cut the opening a bit in order to get them to fit. They hit pretty hard enough to shake the outside mirrors pretty good and the sound decent. I'm looking for something more though.

DiamondJoeQuimby

iTrader: (2)

I thought he rebuilt the outer skin to accommodate? I could be wrong though. Either way, putting a 10" driver in the door firing through a 6" hole is a tad on the counter productive side.

DiamondJoeQuimby

iTrader: (2)

Rebuild the lower section of the door panel to allow for a grill opening to make a larger speaker worth while.

FWIW, you can get tons of midbass from a 6.5 if set up correctly.

350

iTrader: (4)

Any details on those speakers? Sooner or later I'm gonna upgrade and might try that route over a traditional 6.5.

niebur3

Matt has the Dynaudio MW182's in his doors. They are listed as 10", but come in at about 9.4". These are only 2.95" deep. He has them mounted directly to the door with no trim ring. I believe he may have had to use a small spacer for the window track. No modification to the door panel itself is necessary as these sit behind the door panel. You would need to cut some metal, but no other mods needed. Tremendous MidBass!!!

I hate cars

Yep. Cut the hole larger, damp the heck out of the door, mount speakers directly to the door which makes it clear the door card with very little grinding of some plastic (stock appearing from outside), space the window track 5/16th" and you're done. It's quick and easy and you will never run a 6.5 no matter how good again.

These will dig to 30hz and up past 3khz. 4.5mm one way linear excursion and 13mm one way mechanical excursion. Dyn rates xmax very honestly and most dont. I've run the full range and it sounds like I have the subs on. Even with a 70hz crossover I currently run they slam so hard you feel it in your chest and always remain clean. The subs are hardly missed when turned off on most music.

With all of the cone area they hardly move when cranked up with a 65hz-70hz highpass. They will go very loud and low and add a realism that no 6.5" will match. I ran the Esotar 650 which is the best 6.5" I've ever heard plus it won the midbass shoot out and with a 70hz highpass the 10s are better. Don't get me wrong, the 650s have better midrange and great low end.

These 10s will play as high as you want and sound good doing so but you will be limited by beaming at this diameter somewhere before 2khz so a 3-way would be best.

I'm serious, once you run a large midbass you will never go back.

The speaker loads off of the grill. It has more bass with the door card on. It does fine firing through the stock opening. The grill is plenty big for bass and midbass and even into the midrange but if you plan to play them high it's possible the grill could restrict output but not likely. I highly recommend these for midbass duty. You won't find another that will fit with very little mods with its small profile along with the great excursion capabilities and double the cone area of your typical 6.5" and double the excursion of most. Dynaudio SQ is legendary and they hit hard and clean and clear. They keep up with the 15s very well.

Plus me and the OP will have the same subs and midbass lol.

I hate cars

Almost forgot, as far as how large can you go without hitting the door panel, 6.5". The reason for flush mounting the 10s is so they fit under the door panel so you don't have to do major mods.

eggyhustles

Can you fit something like this in the doors?
http://www.usspeaker.com/faital%20pro%208pr200-1.htm

or
http://www.usspeaker.com/B&C-8NDL51-1.htm

I hate cars

I love the pro audio drivers as long as they can play low enough. I can't imagine a 95db efficient midbass with 200w going to it.

*If* you can get those 8s to fit without interfering with the door panel, they would work. The problem I ran into is with the larger diameter, the only way to do my 10s/9s was to flush mount to avoid major surgery on the door panel and that requires a 3" or less depth.

Another great one would be the 9" Morel midbass. I can't remember the exact depth but it's less than the Dyn so no window spacing should have to be done, not that it's hard to do. Both have the magnet inside the voice coil for a very small profile but the Dyn has a 4" VC and the Morel has a 3" VC so the Morel is not only shallower, it has a smaller magnet area for an even easier fit. The tradeoff is the Dyn has considerably more excursion.

With that said, I've been saying for some time I'm going to try pro audio one day. The efficiency is amazing. One of the reasons I didn't this time is I wasn't sure about a pro-audio 10" that would be able to run full range and be shallow enough. Now that I know the doors hate anything much below 70hz pro audio is looking like a good idea again.

Eggy, don't you run some pro-audio midbasses? If so, which ones? My lights only dim when there are sharp drum hits in the 60-70hz range, not when I play really low 30hz content. I could never figure that out until I realized I'm dumping more power into my midbass than my subs. Maybe it's the combo of the subs and midbass overlapping some ranges so instead of just the 500w hit of the subs or the 600w hit of the midbass, they're both playing the same thing with 1,100w hits. That's of course assuming I was pushing the old 900/5 and both 600/4s for everything they're worth which is probably not true. The great thing about pro audio is just 100w on each midbass would get stupid loud.

eggyhustles

You can play them low, but they'll eat through efficiency. Kinda defeats the purpose of using them. Mine do fine crossed @ 80 with a steep slope.

I run these
http://www.usspeaker.com/faital%20pro%2010fh500-1.htm

I'll never ever ever go back to conventional car audio drivers.

Pro audio leaves a bad taste in people's mouths since the majority run BS selinium mids and super tweets.

The good stuff(18sound, jbl, faital, b&c, etc etc) is very special.

You could use the 900/5 bridged on midbass & sub + a 600/4 to power horns and midranges..that's if u went the pro audio route.

Can't find efficiency specs for the dyn mid and tweet, but I think most pro audio 10's would be too efficient for them & you'd have to tame the midbass..thus defeating the purpose.

Kirk3272

iTrader: (1)

I use these" (23i) http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...echnology.html

Build log is here: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...-part-2-a.html

I hate cars

How did you get those to fit? The tweeters are in the low 90s I believe. Midrange around 89. I'll have to check the klippel results to be sure though.

eggyhustles

Had to glass them in. I'll get some pics soon.

I hate cars

Pics would be great. I was thinking the other day, yours is the only one without pictures and is one of the most unique.

Going off topic, if you guys don't know who Kirk is you might want to look him up. He has taken a TL to level that no one else has and it's recognized on the national level with many awards.. He's the one that showed me how to do the 9s. The next time I go back home for a visit I've got to bug him and see this car in person.

pohljm

Yes Kirk's build is pretty damn special!

Gregerst

iTrader: (1)

agreed. top notch equipment and top notch install!

Gregerst

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for all the info. This is great. It looks like 7" - 10" driver is definitely doable. Now I just need to find the right one. I'd really like to stay with a 2-way setup which makes finding a good driver a bit more challenging. Not very many large mids play well up to 2 - 2.5khz+ where I'd like to crossover. Add to that the limited mounting depth available and I could only find a few good candidates.

These are the drivers I found. I have 145 watts per channel available

Esotec MW162, 172, 182
Esotar 650
Legatia L6V2
Scanspeak 18WU


The 172 is rated for 150 watts, appears like it would be good down low and can also play up to 2.5Khz. To me I think it was made to be the general purpose mid driver in Dyn's lineup. Very good at everything but not super great in one particular area.

The 182 looks like it can dig deeper but sacrifices a lot of the upper mid range so not the best candidate for 2-way, which was already mentioned by IHC.

The 650 doesn't look as good as the 172. It's got a high xmax but it would probably need to be driven harder to get the mid bass output I want. The only advantage would be easier install. With my current modifications it would be drop in and go.

The 162's low range looks pretty weak, less than the 650, so I ruled that one out.

The Legatia which is actually a 7" driver looks like it can handle the lows and mid range really well but it's only rated for 80 watts rms.

Although it looks to be a fantastic driver all around I've ruled out the Scanspeak 18WU because of it's almost 4" mounting depth.

So right now I'm really leaning toward the MW172. Paired up with a good tweet, maybe the 102 or Scan D3004, crossed over around 2 - 2.5K. The basket on 172 is a lot larger than the 182 but I don't think that should be a problem?? mounting depth should be ok, about 3 1/4". Cut out dia. is about 1" less than the 182. Technically isn't the 182 is closer to a 9" than a 10"?
I would love your opinions and feedback.

Orange - MW172
Yellow - MW182
Gray - E650

Gregerst

iTrader: (1)

Man, you're getting me all excited to start cutting into my doors so I can get those big mid basses in there! You've got some seriously super high end gear there. I bet it sounds fantastic. But I'd never want to listen to it.. Bc I'd probably want to duplicate it. Unfortunately my budget is a little more limited so I need to try and stretch my dollar a little more while also maintaining good SQ. You have more in your tweets than I'll probably put in my whole front stage. lol
Thanks for all the info. I was hoping you could elaborate on this a little though.
"space the window track 5/16th" and you're done. "

Gregerst

iTrader: (1)

Okay I went back and reread your's and niebur's posts. So what I'd be doing is moving the window track slightly backwards by using a spacer on the mounting bolts or something along those lines? I'll have to take my door panel off and have a look. Now I'm concerned about using the 172's as they are a little deeper than the 182's.

Gregerst

iTrader: (1)

Also do I need to worry about beaming with an 8" driver in a 2 way? The actual cone dia on the mw172 is 6.7" so if I understand correctly beaming would start around 2K. I was also reading about defraction rings and how they help break up the waves at the edge of the cone and allows the woofer to play higher without beaming.

I hate cars

You can't use those graphs to figure out how those speakers will sound, only how loud they will be at a given power at a given frequency.

Don't worry about the power ratings, they will all take significantly more than rated.

The 182 will play out past 4khz. The only problem becomes beaming which is a function of the diameter of the speaker, brand and specs don't make a difference, all speakers of a given cone size will beam at the same frequency. You could probably get away with 1,600hz before beaming so you would need a hefty tweeter. The only way around it is to aim them more on axis or use a 3-way. When I used them as part of a 2-way they sounded fine, I didn't notice the cancellation but I'm told it's there.

The 182 has good midrange ability. As a dedicated midbass in a 3-way it's awesome. Even on 150w it had a pop to it that you rarely hear in a midbass. They can make the side view mirror unusable. It has that hit you in the chest midbass punch and it's virtually unbottomable. Very versatile since they play high and can be used as a midbass but low enough that they're sometimes used in pairs as dedicated subs. It has the most displacement by far and with 150w you can run it down to 40hz at full power and it will have plenty left. To be clear, this speaker has great midbass and midrange.



The 650 has far better midrange than the other Dyn midbasses. It surpasses most dedicated midrange drivers in the midrange. You can push it very hard, right up to it's xmech and midrange never muddies up or changes. It sounds good no matter how much or little power you give it. It digs deep easier than the 172 and sounds better all around. It's just a better speaker period. It will require very little modding to fit.

The 172 IMO is equaled on the low end by the 650 and surpassed by the 182. The 172 is deeper than both of the others and with the side impact beams right behind the magnet of the 3" deep 182, that extra little depth might be a deal breaker. I would never cut the impact beam to fit a speaker on a car that sees the street. It's a good speaker but the 650 can match and exceed it in every possible way, especially in a 2-way.


You can do the 182 as part of a 2-way but you would need to angle them to be on or nearly on axis. They will play past 4khz and sound good doing so but you can't get around beaming (although I didn't notice it when I had it as a 2-way). Its a small 10" which is why I refer to it as a 9" most of the time. Cone area is about the same as the AT 9" and Morel 9" so I call it a 9". My point is you can play it a little higher before beaming since it's smaller than a true 10".

The 650 is the superior driver of the bunch but as part of a 3-way the 182's superior low end might be of interest. I usually run it up around 500hz and cut it off there so it fits my needs better than the 650 due to the additional displacement and the fact that I will never run it high enough to get into beaming.

To sum it up, all 3 speakers will play as high as you could ever want them to. The only advantage to the 172 is the price, the 650 outperforms it in every way, the 182 has better low end and about the same midrange. 3" flush mounted is about as far as you want to go. The smaller profile of the 182 is useful. I can't remember how much clearance there is but I remember there's not much between the magnet and impact beam. I'm not cutting my impact beam to fit a speaker in a car that sees street duty. That extra depth of the 172 might hurt you.

For a 2-way, use the 650. For a 3-way do the 182. I've used both in a 2-way and 3-way and they both work in either configuration but one has great bottom end (the 182 has been used in pairs as a dedicated subwoofer and will dig to 30hz.

The Morel is a good 9" as well.

I hate cars

I would be most worried about the magnet contacting the crash beam in the door. It's up to you if you want to cut it but I wouldn't. No speaker is worth your safety. I'm not saying you will for sure but it's close with the MW182s. You got it on the window track. Just use a few washers between the track and the door to get the space required. Without it the window goes almost all the way down with about 2" sticking up. Now it goes all the way down.

With the bigger speakers you have to flush mount to not have to modify the door panel. With a 6" you can use a spacer like everyone does and a >3" depth is no problem.

Gregerst

iTrader: (1)

Whoa whoa. who said anything about cutting the crash beam? Certainly not me. I'm going to take a look at the door this week and try to get some good measurements. The 172 is only about a 1/4" deeper. If it looks like I can get to fit I think I'd go that route. The smaller woofer means it can play higher with less break up and beaming which is what's needed in a 2 way. Dyn lists the 172 freq from 35 - 3500k. They even suggest using it in a 2-way. The 182 is definitely geared more toward dedicated low mid range use. Freq is listed as 30 - 2000k. This is also what the modeling I did indicates. If I were to go 3 way I'd probably get the 182. But right now I really don't want to deal the extra complexity and cost of going 3 way. I think it can sound really good if I do it right. I'm going to need to find some good tweeters though that can play low while not breaking the bank.

How was the door vibration, rattling etc from 182? I've got 2 layers of deadner on the inner skin and 3 layers on the outer skin behind the speaker. Do you think I'll need more? How about the door panel did you need to do anything with it?

niebur3

I would really look at the 650's or 172's for a 2-way install. As Matt said, the 182's would beam very quickly in a 2-way, and it would be very noticeable with how off-axis doors are. Also, the midbass output would end of being really tamed due the passband, as you would need to keep the level really low to sync with the tweeters. I have never done those as a 2-way in any customer cars.

This is why I would recommend either the 650's or 172's for 2-ways. The 650's are far superior in the midrange, but also have a much higher price point. Depending on your budget, the 172's may be the best compromise of all the drivers.

I may have a set of used 650's for sale here soon. I will let you know if that happens and you are interested.

Here is a test I recently did....some light reading for ya.

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...-1st-post.html

rich20730

You could do these in a two way with the 182's: http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com...ange/?mobile=0

niebur3

And where do you plan on having him mount those?

I hate cars

I agree and great test once again. My last post was a mess, the cumulation of 30 seconds at a time at work, forgetting what I was talking about several minutes prior, etc.

In no way do I suggest that you run the 182 in a 2-way unless you can mount them on axis which is all but impossible in a TL. Previously I just wanted to point out that beaming is the limiting factor and they actually play plenty high to be used in a 2-way if it weren't for the beaming. I'm surprised these are not more popular as a midbass. Compared to other midbass 9s and 8s, they have great excursion, lower than average inductance, a fairly light Mms, a 4" VC that can really soak up some heat on those transients, and they're not limited to your typical 200-300hz of your typical midbass. I usually lowpass them from 750hz and down so I'm far from the beaming point but high enough that I can really put the power to the 3.5" midrange without worry. They will absolutely slam. There have been many times I've had my subs muted and not noticed depending on the music. Obviously if it has a lot of really low end content they will never keep up with the 15s but even crossed over at 70hz they really make it hard to tell when the subs are on or off depending on the type of music. They have a small profile and they're shallow. I don't know if it's the price that keeps people from using it as a dedicated midbass or maybe they're relatively unknown.

I learned by owning all of these speakers except for the 172 that the 650 is hands down the best sounding of the bunch in a 2-way setup. I should've listened to Jerry a long time ago but I just couldn't wrap my head around it at the time. The Esotar 110 tweeters and 650 midbass as a 2-way do sound better than Dyn's 342 3-way set. They're a match made in heaven. The Esotecs are really good speakers, the only reason I went from the 162 to the 650 is I found a deal I couldn't pass up. The Esotecs sound absolutely great, I just kept upgrading one set of speakers at a time because I'm retarded and that's what I do. I waste money lol. I would have no problem running any of the Esotec products again.

Even if the OP gets the 162 I think he will be very surprised at the sound quality. The 172 gets you the bass of the 650 for far less money. I remember when I upgraded from the ID ctx65cs which were known for good midbass at the time, to the Dyn 162 which aren't really praised for their midbass walked all over the IDs, not in the same league. The Dyns will go as low as you want with ease.... until you bottom them. That was the problem I had with the 650s. The MS8 was allowing some really low frequencies through and boosting the hell out of them. I had no idea they were ever in trouble or being pushed so hard until I bottomed them. They sounded great, midbass never muddied up, just clean and clear sound including vocals all the way to bottoming. I then drove for a while with the door panel off and was shocked at the amount of excursion. Dyn rates xmax and xmech values conservatively (accurately) and I believe the 650 is 21mm peak to peak to xmech. I would guess them to have at least that much, I would say more like a full inch of peak to peak travel before bottoming. It was pretty cool that they showed no signs of distress with that kind of excursion. It was a sad day when I sold them.

I just literally gave my Dyn 102 tweeters away. I wish I would've known you were in the market for some. I know the price is a real shocker but you could check out the Esotar 110 tweeter considered by many to be the best or one of the best in the world. I consider it the star of the Esotar line (just my opinion). Retail price is pretty shocking but I'm sure your Dyn dealer will work with you. They're stupid expensive, hard to mount and conceal, but the first time you hear them it's all worth it.

Last, there's a chance you might not have to flush mount the 172s if you could position them perfectly to clear the indented portion of the door panel which would make the dept a non issue.

There I go rambling again.

rich20730

Maybe just make some dash pods out of PVC and mount them on axis. Something like this: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...ge-review.html

niebur3

With the rake of our windshield? Not a chance. Definitely not the best option, IMHO!

Gregerst

iTrader: (1)

Great job with that midwoofer review. It's very informative I had already read it twice and just read it again. Can't wait for the Amp shootout :wink:

I'd be interested in those 650's if the price is right. Send me a PM if they become available.

rich20730

Can you elaborate on this? I'm not being argumentative - just want to learn because I've been thinking about trying this out

niebur3

The way our dash is and the rake of our windshield, coupled with the size of the drivers (and PVC is NOT a good enclosure for speakers that aren't fully enclosed, like a tweeter or self enclosed dome midrange) and you will end up with the driver very close to the front of the dash. Then off-axis response hitting the windshield, side window and dash will create some nasty reflections.

You would be better off doing large wideband midrange off the sail panel (a-la Scott Buwalda) but our area there is tough as well.

Of course, unless you are going really off axis off the a-pillar with the mid, like Bing did on that epic TL install, but off-axis wouldn't be a widebander's friend.

Gregerst

iTrader: (1)

^^ Good info. I generally enjoy reading your posts, when your not rambling too much.. jk, they're usually chock full of good information. You may have gone through a lot of different high end pieces of equipment but that's given you a lot of first hand knowledge and experience which not very many people have. I wish you had tried the 172's though so you could tell me how good you thought they were. lol

I'm not sure I want to hear them. It'll probably make everything else sound sub-par and I can't afford it. lol

diggidyd

I heard them tonight. And that is exactly what happened. Nothing will sounds as good again. I started out thinking I was crazy for upping my total system budget to $3000, and after tonight I'm seriously considering the 110s and 650s. I realized that the tweeters are probably the most important part of any system. I also heard the 650s mated with the lesser 102s, and I thought the difference was night and day. $1500 for tweeters is insane. But it sounded insanely good. I don't think you can appreciate it until you hear them. It sounds like there is a snare drum being played in front of you. Just awesome.