I'm Back! Need New Stuff...
07-01-2011, 02:34 PM
#42
Team Owner
Can you explain this a little more. I noticed jda123 said the same thing and I've never heard that before. I have the most retarded setup ever using a loc and then a line driver. I need to get rid of the loc but I haven't had the time. I only use it as an adaptor from rca to speaker wire but it sounds like it may be hurting sq. Mine responds to 10hz easily without the SS filter on.
07-01-2011, 02:38 PM
#43
Drifting
Can you explain this a little more. I noticed jda123 said the same thing and I've never heard that before. I have the most retarded setup ever using a loc and then a line driver. I need to get rid of the loc but I haven't had the time. I only use it as an adaptor from rca to speaker wire but it sounds like it may be hurting sq. Mine responds to 10hz easily without the SS filter on.
07-01-2011, 02:40 PM
#44
Never heard that either. I mean I can wire it up like I did with the components, straight into the pre-amp signal and not use an LOC at all. I've started to think that maybe not using an LOC is why I'm getting this buzz upon start up until music starts.
Also, here are those Focal K2's: http://oklahomacity.craigslist.org/ele/2472798552.html
Eggy: My components aren't wired up using an LOC...but my subs are. So I should be getting the full bandwidth. Maybe I'll try the subs w/o an LOC. This is my LOC: http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...AC-SNI-35.html
Also, here are those Focal K2's: http://oklahomacity.craigslist.org/ele/2472798552.html
Eggy: My components aren't wired up using an LOC...but my subs are. So I should be getting the full bandwidth. Maybe I'll try the subs w/o an LOC. This is my LOC: http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...AC-SNI-35.html
Last edited by Trunk Monkey; 07-01-2011 at 02:47 PM.
07-01-2011, 02:42 PM
#45
Team Owner
All a LOC is is a group of small transformers that step down the voltage to a line level, and provide ground isolation. Since consumer LOCs utilize such small, and inexpensive transformers, you'll get the limited bandwidth I was talking about. For example, David Navone LOCs exhibit bandwidth extending down to 80 hz. Roll off after that occurs at 12 db/oct, so by 20 hz, you're 24 db down in output. Cheaper ones are much worse.
07-01-2011, 03:21 PM
#46
Dogmatic Dinosaur
Ditch the LOCs. The cheap LOCs, like stinger sgn11, use a single .02 transistor which cuts the voltage, but at a steep price. I might be able to post a pic when I get home. IHC - this is what I was saying about your lack of low end from some of your past sub setups - might have been the signal dropping off exponentially from the LOC, not the subs or box. Some of the cheap ones cut the signal by -24 db per octave, or even worse. They also vary the signal with heat (like a lot of cheap components), so the volume can change on you while you drive.
Good LOCs are better, but not good enough.
This is another reason why opinions online can suck so much, or just listening to a sub for a few minutes - the install can suck if they used a cheap LOC, but it is always the sub that gets blamed when the setup sucks. I can almost assure you that the crappy sounding FI Q that you have heard was from a shitty setup, because they usually sound pretty damn good.
Won't the MS8 work on the pre-amp 900mv to 1v signal alone? If so, just wire the RCAs directly. If not, then put a bitone.1 on your list.
Pass on those K2s. Older model. Better than a some new stuff, but save the $175 towards something else. The 6.5s will still slam and might be good for rear fill or a 2nd 6.5 in the door, but the tweeter and xover are dated. If you want to try the CXS still, the crossover is better and so is the tweeter on the ID set.
FWIW - I just cut the ends off of RCAs (like TrunkMonkey) and used those in to my amps or 3sixty, but I have to turn the gain up to compensate for the 1v input, like you might expect. I have also done this with the post-amp sub signal and it works fine too - gain is really low on these. If you have JL amps, they have a low/high selector switch that goes from .2 to 2v on low and .8 to 8v on high. Most decent amps will normalize an input voltage over 8v down to 8v (the max), but I would not put like 200v to it or anything. That is what gain is, to normalize the input - it is not a volume knob like many think.
Also, the center piece of the RCA is the positive. The outside is negative.
Good LOCs are better, but not good enough.
This is another reason why opinions online can suck so much, or just listening to a sub for a few minutes - the install can suck if they used a cheap LOC, but it is always the sub that gets blamed when the setup sucks. I can almost assure you that the crappy sounding FI Q that you have heard was from a shitty setup, because they usually sound pretty damn good.
Won't the MS8 work on the pre-amp 900mv to 1v signal alone? If so, just wire the RCAs directly. If not, then put a bitone.1 on your list.
Pass on those K2s. Older model. Better than a some new stuff, but save the $175 towards something else. The 6.5s will still slam and might be good for rear fill or a 2nd 6.5 in the door, but the tweeter and xover are dated. If you want to try the CXS still, the crossover is better and so is the tweeter on the ID set.
FWIW - I just cut the ends off of RCAs (like TrunkMonkey) and used those in to my amps or 3sixty, but I have to turn the gain up to compensate for the 1v input, like you might expect. I have also done this with the post-amp sub signal and it works fine too - gain is really low on these. If you have JL amps, they have a low/high selector switch that goes from .2 to 2v on low and .8 to 8v on high. Most decent amps will normalize an input voltage over 8v down to 8v (the max), but I would not put like 200v to it or anything. That is what gain is, to normalize the input - it is not a volume knob like many think.
Also, the center piece of the RCA is the positive. The outside is negative.
07-01-2011, 03:21 PM
#47
Dogmatic Dinosaur
The buzz is probably the amp. It is probably noisy until it gets a usable signal. Do you have a different one that you can try out? Even a cheap one?
07-01-2011, 03:26 PM
#48
Dogmatic Dinosaur
IHC - your MS8 might flatten the low end back out in your current setup to make up for the db losses under 120hz. However, it cannot make up for signal that is lost, so ditch the LOC anyway.
07-01-2011, 04:17 PM
#49
So should I use the pre-amp or post-amp signals? On the PDX 1.1000 (currently on LOC) it has a switch with two positions labeled "GAIN".
0.1V-1.0V OR 1.0V-8.0V
Which should this be set to?
I just tried the PDX4.100 w/o the ground loop isolator and it was much worse. Constant hiss at any volume. I can pick up that PPI art a600.2 for like $20 whenever. It's cosmetically blemished but he said it still works fine. I know that's a VERY nice old SQ amp
0.1V-1.0V OR 1.0V-8.0V
Which should this be set to?
I just tried the PDX4.100 w/o the ground loop isolator and it was much worse. Constant hiss at any volume. I can pick up that PPI art a600.2 for like $20 whenever. It's cosmetically blemished but he said it still works fine. I know that's a VERY nice old SQ amp
Last edited by Trunk Monkey; 07-01-2011 at 04:19 PM.
07-01-2011, 06:08 PM
#50
Team Owner
Wow, tons of great info, thanks! I'm running a $10 adjustable LOC if that tells you anything lol.
The reason for the line driver is I ASSumed that a LOC turned all the way up just lets the signal pass through unaltered but another member told me that it's still cutting the signal. So based on my wrong assumption I thought that the stock HU signal was not enough for the MS8 which is probably wrong. It's a really terrible way of doing things, to cut it down, amplify it, amplify some more in the MS8 and amplify again at the amp. I can't think of a worse way to get the signal. I might just try it right now, I've got an hour to get it done.
The reason for the line driver is I ASSumed that a LOC turned all the way up just lets the signal pass through unaltered but another member told me that it's still cutting the signal. So based on my wrong assumption I thought that the stock HU signal was not enough for the MS8 which is probably wrong. It's a really terrible way of doing things, to cut it down, amplify it, amplify some more in the MS8 and amplify again at the amp. I can't think of a worse way to get the signal. I might just try it right now, I've got an hour to get it done.
07-01-2011, 06:24 PM
#51
Dogmatic Dinosaur
TM - either the post amp, or pre amp will work. Both will allow control of the sub with the headunit. Just wire it up like you did your fronts, only both positives and both negatives go to the same place - need to use both RCAs. If you go pre-amp, then set the switch to .1 to 1. If you go post-amp, then it needs to be 1 to 8. Somebody posted that the post-amp signal is 9V point to point, which should adjust down nicely from 8. That being said, I would use the pre-amp signal and take the amp out of the mix - one less thing to jack with your signal.
If you want the subs to play over 80hz, you can tee off from the front signal. This is cool to play higher in the range, but you lose the head unit control of the subs.
Does the component PDX have the same input switch? If so, make sure that it is .1 to 1 as well.
What this tells me is that you have a great opportunity to improve your SQ when you take it out. This could be awesome. I hope that it is. The bad news is that you might need to tune again... but it will be worth it.
I think that the MS8 is probably flattening out the sub channel, so you should be cool now, but it will be impossible to compare this setup to any that you have had with the LOC. Too bad that you dont have a w6 anymore to jack around with.
Those cheap pots, or whatever they used, could be jacking with your signal too.
If you want the subs to play over 80hz, you can tee off from the front signal. This is cool to play higher in the range, but you lose the head unit control of the subs.
Does the component PDX have the same input switch? If so, make sure that it is .1 to 1 as well.
What this tells me is that you have a great opportunity to improve your SQ when you take it out. This could be awesome. I hope that it is. The bad news is that you might need to tune again... but it will be worth it.
I think that the MS8 is probably flattening out the sub channel, so you should be cool now, but it will be impossible to compare this setup to any that you have had with the LOC. Too bad that you dont have a w6 anymore to jack around with.
Those cheap pots, or whatever they used, could be jacking with your signal too.
07-01-2011, 06:25 PM
#52
Dogmatic Dinosaur
Let us know if you are happier with the output of your current box once you take the LOC out. My guess is that they will be a lot better in the low end.
07-01-2011, 07:42 PM
#53
Team Owner
So what I've noticed so far with just a few minutes of listening time.... I can't say it has more low end but I can say the kick drums sound much more realistic so maybe that IS more bass. I haven't had time to put in a bass CD. I have some basstronics stuff but the subsonic interferes with that stuff anyway.
I really need to swap the factory wing spoiler out for a lip spoiler. I've dynamatted the heck out of the trunk lid and surprisingly there's very little to no noise but the spoiler looks retarded from the outside. If I were behind my car at a light and saw the spoiler dancing like that I would make fun of it. It looks worse now with each drum beat.
Here's the surprising part..... The tweeters sound less harsh yet more detailed at the same time...... weird.
The midbasses vibrate my jeans a lot more now. Maybe it's more midbass or maybe it's just more volume as a whole, not sure yet.
I want to get a few days of listening time to songs I listen to a lot before I say anything definite. Let's just say for now that the music sounds more "real" if that makes any sense. I think dynamics are better but again it's too soon to say. There's more of an "airy" feeling now.
Regardless, it sounds better so thank you! It goes to show that you can blow a lot of money on nice stuff but screw it up with a bad install.
Almost forgot, I have all the output I could ever want. I have the line driver almost to the 0db setting vs 24db before and it's louder. When I first turned it on after changing it up I left it at the max 24db setting and as soon as the amps turned on (engine off) I had noise in the system. Sounded like a couple of fans, probably the Mac fans making noise in the system. It was stupid loud like that, at "4" on the HU it was louder than 30 before. No noise at all now with it set at a reasonable level.
I'm surprised it sounded as good as it did before. I cut the signal and then boosted the heck out of it.....3 times. Going to play around with it tomorrow and see if I can get away with not bridging the Mac with my new-found power so it can do my mids and highs instead of just the mids bridged. The tweeters are where I can really tell the difference with the Mac vs other amps.
I'll review it in more detail in a few days in my audio thread, I don't want to take up more space in TM's thread.
Last edited by I hate cars; 07-01-2011 at 07:45 PM.
07-01-2011, 07:45 PM
#54
Hell I didn't know you should turn the LOC up all the way. I've got mine at around 1/3rd the way up. I'll try it out in a second or tomorrow.
My component pdx does not have that switch..and it's wired Pre-amp. That okay? I figured I'd take the amp factory amp out of the equation and get it before it might be crossed over to 80hz or somethin.
Subs are on a post-amp I believe
Might pick up that PPI a600.2 to see if my buzz goes away. At least he can let me try it out first, then I'll know. I'm sure its close to te power of the pdx as I hear those were much more powerful than it said.
My component pdx does not have that switch..and it's wired Pre-amp. That okay? I figured I'd take the amp factory amp out of the equation and get it before it might be crossed over to 80hz or somethin.
Subs are on a post-amp I believe
Might pick up that PPI a600.2 to see if my buzz goes away. At least he can let me try it out first, then I'll know. I'm sure its close to te power of the pdx as I hear those were much more powerful than it said.
07-01-2011, 08:29 PM
#56
Dogmatic Dinosaur
Take out the line driver when you get time. If the MS8 will accept the 900mv to 1v signal, why keep another component in the way? It could get even better. My guess is that it will.
A cheap LOC can also clip and mutilate a good signal at any frequency - which you heard. A good one is not so bad at mutilating the bulk of the signal, but still falls off under 100hz, or so.
Turds turned all the way up, or just 1/3 of the way up are still turds. I don't think that it would matter too much... just different input voltages but the signal loss should still be the same.
Monkey: Pre-amp is the way to go. Just stick with that and find a way to get rid of the noise. Get that PPI - those things were awesome in their day and still very good today.
This is what you paid for. A bad install can wreck anything, but high end stuff really shines when you stick with it and work shit out. This phenomenon is why I get kinda upset when some people say that the Focals are harsh - I can get mine to do the same thing that you just did (and you are not even done yet) and I am just an amateur who spends too much time in his car.
A cheap LOC can also clip and mutilate a good signal at any frequency - which you heard. A good one is not so bad at mutilating the bulk of the signal, but still falls off under 100hz, or so.
Turds turned all the way up, or just 1/3 of the way up are still turds.
I don't think that it would matter too much... just different input voltages but the signal loss should still be the same.Monkey: Pre-amp is the way to go. Just stick with that and find a way to get rid of the noise. Get that PPI - those things were awesome in their day and still very good today.
The tweeters sound less harsh yet more detailed at the same time...
Last edited by jda123; 07-01-2011 at 08:37 PM.
07-02-2011, 12:36 AM
#57
Team Owner
In that case...... I had to run a couple errands today. I have a rule of not adjusting anything until I play several different songs from different CDs through the system and try it while driving. So after doing this I've ended up dropping the sub level considerably. EQ is flat except for the 20hz range where I boost to help overcome some of the subsonic filter that hurts the really, really low stuff. However, the sub level on the MS8 has been halfway between neutral and full power. I kept having to adjust the level down over the course of an hour until I was several notches into the negatives. I wish there was a number I could give to show how much I actually cut but it isn't measured that way. It was a moderate amount, there's no doubt the entire sound has changed. Maybe Sunday I'll do a retune and see what it comes up with.
07-02-2011, 02:45 PM
#58
Dogmatic Dinosaur
While I am still on a detail tweeter rant (sorry about this in advance)... most detailed tweeters can very accurately detail a crappy signal. What appears to be harsh is not the tweeter, but the signal. Once you clean up the signal, the tweeter can get louder, appear more detailed (it was always detailed) and sound less terrible. Of course, the tweeter gets blamed for this when all that it has ever done is to accurately describe the signal that it got.
Less detailed tweeters can sound better because they are not as accurate and the shitty signal does not shine through.
IHC - are you going to remove the line driver before you retune?
Less detailed tweeters can sound better because they are not as accurate and the shitty signal does not shine through.
IHC - are you going to remove the line driver before you retune?
07-02-2011, 05:44 PM
#59
While we're at it.... Does anyone know how or is there a way to keep the audio control screen up until I press return on the nav.? Pissin me off that I'll press the "sound" button and be adjusting something and it will revert back to the main screen and I'll accidentally press a new DVD-A or whatever. Please say yes....
07-03-2011, 11:33 AM
#60
So I've been trying to dial in the midbass and I was wondering how I'm supposed to know how the midbass is supposed to hit, etc. I don't ever know if I've got the midbass too high or too low. Is there any way I can test this or does anyone have any good midbass songs that they can tell me how they should sound, etc.
Same goes for the subs. I wish there was one of you closer so I could let you listen...I feel like I'm a little let down and it could be because of improper tuning.
Same goes for the subs. I wish there was one of you closer so I could let you listen...I feel like I'm a little let down and it could be because of improper tuning.
07-03-2011, 11:43 AM
#61
Also, I know I've asked this before but I never got the answer. On the navigation, you have controls for 1. Treble 2. Bass 3. Subwoofer 4. Center. What exactly do these do? I know when you turn the bass control up it affects the mids and the subs, so it's hard to get punchy mids with authority because the subs starting getting over powered.
My treble is centered. When I turn up the bass setting a few notches I feel it makes the subs sound weird. I feel like the only time I can get good clean midbass/bass is in certain rap and techno/dance type stuff. Any other time and the mids sound hollow and when the subs are added in it sounds just bad. Seriously, if you listen to a sub out of a cheap home theater set from like walmart..the subs make that sound. Very hollow. Mids make that sound too on mostly rock when you try to turn them up to get any sort of punch that you can feel. Its the upper bass 70hz + that seems to make this hollow sound. It's never happened when I had ported boxes..so I guess it may just be a product of sealed boxes and ill have to low pass at like 60-65hz
My treble is centered. When I turn up the bass setting a few notches I feel it makes the subs sound weird. I feel like the only time I can get good clean midbass/bass is in certain rap and techno/dance type stuff. Any other time and the mids sound hollow and when the subs are added in it sounds just bad. Seriously, if you listen to a sub out of a cheap home theater set from like walmart..the subs make that sound. Very hollow. Mids make that sound too on mostly rock when you try to turn them up to get any sort of punch that you can feel. Its the upper bass 70hz + that seems to make this hollow sound. It's never happened when I had ported boxes..so I guess it may just be a product of sealed boxes and ill have to low pass at like 60-65hz
07-03-2011, 12:15 PM
#62
Dogmatic Dinosaur
Turn the tweets up until you cannot stand them anymore. Back them off until they are at their max that you would ever listen to them at (keep you HU under 30 for this). Then move the mid bass in until it starts to distort or sound shitty. Then, see if you have too much tweet or too much mid bass and adjust accordingly.
Remember that they are only mid bass, not bass. They still carry some vocal and instrument load, so if you drown them with low end, the vocals and instruments can get out of whack a bit.
The mid bass should blend into the subwoofer to make the sub sound like it is not coming from the rear of the car as much. It might still sound like that a little bit - that is OK, you have a $200 2 way set and if you want better blending, then you sometimes have to spend more money or go with a 3-way set.
The treble and bass on the HU are a poor-mans processor. Do you have a bass boot DB knob on the bass amp? If so, then turn it down so that you can let the midbass play with the HU bass up. If not, then turn the gain down and try and blend it. LP it at 80. Put the subsonic at 30.
Jack around with it and find where you like it.
I have no idea how to keep that screen on - if somebody does, then I would like to know too.
Remember that they are only mid bass, not bass. They still carry some vocal and instrument load, so if you drown them with low end, the vocals and instruments can get out of whack a bit.
The mid bass should blend into the subwoofer to make the sub sound like it is not coming from the rear of the car as much. It might still sound like that a little bit - that is OK, you have a $200 2 way set and if you want better blending, then you sometimes have to spend more money or go with a 3-way set.
The treble and bass on the HU are a poor-mans processor. Do you have a bass boot DB knob on the bass amp? If so, then turn it down so that you can let the midbass play with the HU bass up. If not, then turn the gain down and try and blend it. LP it at 80. Put the subsonic at 30.
Jack around with it and find where you like it.
I have no idea how to keep that screen on - if somebody does, then I would like to know too.
07-03-2011, 01:18 PM
#63
Team Owner
I have a bad habit of turning the bass up just a little at a time until one day the bass sounds muddy and the front stage sounds weak and I don't know why. What I always do is turn the subs down lower than what you think they need to go. Turn them down to the point that you can barely tell they're on and leave them there for at least a whole day. After readjusting to normal amounts of bass it sounds so much better, blends with the front stage, and the system as a whole sounds cleaner.
When I used the stock HU for adjustments, if I added bass I had to reduce the subwoofer. I don't like how the stock system adds bass. I don't know what frequency it boosts at but it's definitely not sub bass, if I had to guess it would be in the 63-80hz range. That would probably make your subs sound weird with too much boost.
You can turn the subs off, make the system sound the best you can without subs and slowly bring them back in. If you've got those W6s in too small of a box, they're going to be peaky. I don't even like the JL spec sealed box.
When I used the stock HU for adjustments, if I added bass I had to reduce the subwoofer. I don't like how the stock system adds bass. I don't know what frequency it boosts at but it's definitely not sub bass, if I had to guess it would be in the 63-80hz range. That would probably make your subs sound weird with too much boost.
You can turn the subs off, make the system sound the best you can without subs and slowly bring them back in. If you've got those W6s in too small of a box, they're going to be peaky. I don't even like the JL spec sealed box.
07-03-2011, 01:52 PM
#64
Thanks JDA
IHC- Yeah, I think the sub boosts somewhere in the 55-70 range. I need to find a song that has good midbass and a range of sub bass. Plus I need to know how I'll know when I've got too much midbass and too much sub. Any good songs you all know of that are good auditioning songs? Songs you all know very well and cam say how it should sound
IHC- Yeah, I think the sub boosts somewhere in the 55-70 range. I need to find a song that has good midbass and a range of sub bass. Plus I need to know how I'll know when I've got too much midbass and too much sub. Any good songs you all know of that are good auditioning songs? Songs you all know very well and cam say how it should sound
07-03-2011, 09:49 PM
#65
Dogmatic Dinosaur
Do you have a high quality set of headphones? I listen to songs on those and then compare in the car.
I was too hard on myself when I had my polyglass. There are just some things that a set in a certain price range can do. Try and set your expectations better than I did. I am in my mid 30s and have only had audio that I don't care to upgrade anymore... it takes time and life oftentimes comes first.
I like to listen to some songs with a regular band, plus some horns, strings, etc., just to see how things blend with lots of instruments and vocals. This can take care of most of your components. Then, mix in a song with a lot of bass. There was a local band called the Bon Ton Soul Accordion Band that I love to tune with - all kinds of instruments, dynamic percussion and best-of-all... an Accordion. Something like Phil Collin's On the Way to Heaven could work well. Bass is way easier to find good songs with. Remember - quality recordings.
You get that PPI yet?
I was too hard on myself when I had my polyglass. There are just some things that a set in a certain price range can do. Try and set your expectations better than I did. I am in my mid 30s and have only had audio that I don't care to upgrade anymore... it takes time and life oftentimes comes first.
I like to listen to some songs with a regular band, plus some horns, strings, etc., just to see how things blend with lots of instruments and vocals. This can take care of most of your components. Then, mix in a song with a lot of bass. There was a local band called the Bon Ton Soul Accordion Band that I love to tune with - all kinds of instruments, dynamic percussion and best-of-all... an Accordion. Something like Phil Collin's On the Way to Heaven could work well. Bass is way easier to find good songs with. Remember - quality recordings.
You get that PPI yet?
07-06-2011, 10:47 AM
#66
Well...I found out what was wrong with my sub setup!!
So I was sitting at work thinking about how shitty it sounds and why the hell it sounds like that. I started thinking about how my Home Theater setup doesn't sound like that and also how you guys said I should remove the LOC. Well it just clicked that my LOC is "post-amp" and that signal already has a x-over of 80hz or whatever the hell it is. That's the same style as home theater setups when the AVR (receiver) has the sub x-over and you're supposed to turn the sub x-over all the way down or all the way up (couldn't remember). So I had to wait an hour or so to try this out but I have a feeling I'm right...and I was!! I turned the x-over on the sub amp all the way down and raised the gain a tad (it's not a little under half) and I don't get that resonance/hollow sound I was getting constantly. When I raise the x-over, even as low as 50hz, the sound gets more and more prominent and by 100-120hz its sounds terrible. I'm getting a lot more tight punch and kick without the distortion or resonance or whatever I was hearing. I feel like it sounds the way it should now, though I still think the box is a little iffy being that small. VERY excited and can't believe I didn't think of this earlier.
I'm not sure how many other people have LOC's post-factory amp but if you put the x-over at 80hz it sound MUCH worse and hollow than just dropping it all the way down/off basically. I'm still getting all the up to 80hz or wherever the exact stock x-over point is but I thought I'd let a few of those people still using LOC's know b/c it definitely was hurting my sound. Not sure if this is independent of my amp or setup but I'd assume that this would occur for all setups using a post-amp LOC on the sub channel
So I was sitting at work thinking about how shitty it sounds and why the hell it sounds like that. I started thinking about how my Home Theater setup doesn't sound like that and also how you guys said I should remove the LOC. Well it just clicked that my LOC is "post-amp" and that signal already has a x-over of 80hz or whatever the hell it is. That's the same style as home theater setups when the AVR (receiver) has the sub x-over and you're supposed to turn the sub x-over all the way down or all the way up (couldn't remember). So I had to wait an hour or so to try this out but I have a feeling I'm right...and I was!! I turned the x-over on the sub amp all the way down and raised the gain a tad (it's not a little under half) and I don't get that resonance/hollow sound I was getting constantly. When I raise the x-over, even as low as 50hz, the sound gets more and more prominent and by 100-120hz its sounds terrible. I'm getting a lot more tight punch and kick without the distortion or resonance or whatever I was hearing. I feel like it sounds the way it should now, though I still think the box is a little iffy being that small. VERY excited and can't believe I didn't think of this earlier.
I'm not sure how many other people have LOC's post-factory amp but if you put the x-over at 80hz it sound MUCH worse and hollow than just dropping it all the way down/off basically. I'm still getting all the up to 80hz or wherever the exact stock x-over point is but I thought I'd let a few of those people still using LOC's know b/c it definitely was hurting my sound. Not sure if this is independent of my amp or setup but I'd assume that this would occur for all setups using a post-amp LOC on the sub channel
Last edited by Trunk Monkey; 07-06-2011 at 10:50 AM.
07-06-2011, 11:12 AM
#67
Dogmatic Dinosaur
Good to hear.
You will do even better if you take the signal pre-amp - below 40hz will be a LOT better. Take a listen to this for a while, switch it out and then compare.
You will do even better if you take the signal pre-amp - below 40hz will be a LOT better. Take a listen to this for a while, switch it out and then compare.
07-06-2011, 11:46 AM
#68
Yeah I'm going to listen and critique all this week to and from work (hour long drive) and then remove the LOC this weekend. I'm not sure how much I'll really see of the <40hz in a small sealed box but I might see a little bit lol.
07-06-2011, 04:15 PM
#69
Dogmatic Dinosaur
You should see a lot. Get the LOC out ASAP. It appears that the W6 might get peaky in a box that small, but it should still hit the notes. I have not tried them in a box like that, so I have no idea.
07-06-2011, 10:18 PM
#73
Dogmatic Dinosaur
You need to at least get a flat signal from 20-100hz so that you have something to baseline with - take the preamp sub signal for about 30-80, or tee off the preamp fronts which go down below 30. If you take the sub, then don't cross it at all - turn the LP off. If you take the front signal, then set the subsonic accordingly and lp them at 90, or so. Those w6 should play very well from 30-80hz, even in that box. They even do pretty well down to 20 and up above 80 if you need them to. They should get more output than you could ever need.
If you replace them now, then you might love what you replaced them with, but it would be you addition or subtraction to the signal that might cause a lot of it.
Get your control variables solid before you do you experiment. You might find out that your equipment was fine for you all along.
If you replace them now, then you might love what you replaced them with, but it would be you addition or subtraction to the signal that might cause a lot of it.
Get your control variables solid before you do you experiment. You might find out that your equipment was fine for you all along.
07-07-2011, 02:11 AM
#74
Take out the line driver when you get time. If the MS8 will accept the 900mv to 1v signal, why keep another component in the way? It could get even better. My guess is that it will.
A cheap LOC can also clip and mutilate a good signal at any frequency - which you heard. A good one is not so bad at mutilating the bulk of the signal, but still falls off under 100hz, or so.
Turds turned all the way up, or just 1/3 of the way up are still turds. I don't think that it would matter too much... just different input voltages but the signal loss should still be the same.
Monkey: Pre-amp is the way to go. Just stick with that and find a way to get rid of the noise. Get that PPI - those things were awesome in their day and still very good today.
This is what you paid for. A bad install can wreck anything, but high end stuff really shines when you stick with it and work shit out. This phenomenon is why I get kinda upset when some people say that the Focals are harsh - I can get mine to do the same thing that you just did (and you are not even done yet) and I am just an amateur who spends too much time in his car.
A cheap LOC can also clip and mutilate a good signal at any frequency - which you heard. A good one is not so bad at mutilating the bulk of the signal, but still falls off under 100hz, or so.
Turds turned all the way up, or just 1/3 of the way up are still turds.
I don't think that it would matter too much... just different input voltages but the signal loss should still be the same.Monkey: Pre-amp is the way to go. Just stick with that and find a way to get rid of the noise. Get that PPI - those things were awesome in their day and still very good today.
This is what you paid for. A bad install can wreck anything, but high end stuff really shines when you stick with it and work shit out. This phenomenon is why I get kinda upset when some people say that the Focals are harsh - I can get mine to do the same thing that you just did (and you are not even done yet) and I am just an amateur who spends too much time in his car.
07-08-2011, 08:26 AM
#75
PPI works! For some reason I still have to use the Ground Loop Isolator to remove the start up noise but I get no noise in the system at start up or anytime with the PPI. Fuckin Alpine 
I'll get a good 45-hour of listening time on the way to work today so we'll see the SQ of this old guy
I'll get a good 45-hour of listening time on the way to work today so we'll see the SQ of this old guy
07-08-2011, 09:18 AM
#76
PPI a600.2 = SOO MUCH WIN!
It toned down these Massive's a ton to where they don't sound quite as loud but the midbass is more pronounced and dynamics seem a bit improved also. Beautiful. I bet it'd sound killer on some nice components. I'd say that was $15 very well spent
It toned down these Massive's a ton to where they don't sound quite as loud but the midbass is more pronounced and dynamics seem a bit improved also. Beautiful. I bet it'd sound killer on some nice components. I'd say that was $15 very well spent
07-08-2011, 01:46 PM
#78
Start car & get crackling noise out of tweeters until a volume of roughly 4-6 is turned up/on and then the noise goes away. When the volume is turned back down you can still hear a slight hiss but you need to be about 6" away from the tweet to hear it. Might possibly get louder as volume increases though b/c I swear I could hear it and/or distortion with the PDX. With the PPI, the start up noise and hiss are both gone, but the Ground Loop Isolator is still needed b/c of the loud noise upon start up. The noise DID change sounds, instead of crackling with Alpine, it was a louder buzz with the PPI. I'll check wiring at the x-over and wiring into the tweeter but I assume they are ok. Obviously not the speakers.
Any idea's on possible area's to check? Since it's only the tweets having the problem, I figured I'd check:
1. L/R speaker wire out of amp
2. Speaker wire into x-over
3. speaker wire connected to the speaker wire attached on tweeter
I'm going to remove the LOC either tonight or this weekend. I just hope I don't introduce noise or something since it's not the proper voltage signal or whatever. I guess it'd be okay though since the PDX1.1000 has a option between .1-1V or 1-8V
07-08-2011, 01:54 PM
#79
Dogmatic Dinosaur
How is your ground on the amp? Be sure that you didn't ground it to a composite or alloy surface, but rather to steel or iron on the frame. Most noise issues are ground related. Some are related to the quality of the RCA cables or how they were ran. Did you use shielded RCAs?
Don't sweat noise in the sub if you remove the LOC - it will all get low passed out of the equation. If you go pre-amp on the sub, then use .1 to 1v. If you go post-amp, then 1 to 8v.
Don't sweat noise in the sub if you remove the LOC - it will all get low passed out of the equation. If you go pre-amp on the sub, then use .1 to 1v. If you go post-amp, then 1 to 8v.
07-08-2011, 02:06 PM
#80
You need to at least get a flat signal from 20-100hz so that you have something to baseline with - take the preamp sub signal for about 30-80, or tee off the preamp fronts which go down below 30. If you take the sub, then don't cross it at all - turn the LP off. If you take the front signal, then set the subsonic accordingly and lp them at 90, or so. Those w6 should play very well from 30-80hz, even in that box. They even do pretty well down to 20 and up above 80 if you need them to. They should get more output than you could ever need.
If you replace them now, then you might love what you replaced them with, but it would be you addition or subtraction to the signal that might cause a lot of it.
Get your control variables solid before you do you experiment. You might find out that your equipment was fine for you all along.
If you replace them now, then you might love what you replaced them with, but it would be you addition or subtraction to the signal that might cause a lot of it.
Get your control variables solid before you do you experiment. You might find out that your equipment was fine for you all along.
They do get plenty of output, even in this small sealed box. It does pretty damn well on rap as staying clean and loud. I'm still afraid to push them b/c I don't want to blow them or over do it. I'm not quite sure what kind of excursion I should be seeing or exactly what distortion sounds like instead of bass...ya know?
Why you say that?
By the way, ever heard of Argent Audio? They look like they make damn nice ported boxes for a reasonable price. Kerf ports, etc.