dcrandon

OK, so I know we've beaten to death the fact that our $38,000 cars with $2000 Nav systems can't tell me where the local Costco is (or Sears or Walmart or Sam's Club, or anything).

But what I'd like to know is has anyone contacted Acura or Alpine or Navtech?

And how far have you gotten?

Should I start a petition?

David

bluenoise

Are you serious with the petition thing?

Sure it's not immediately obvious how to do the best searches, but it usually works if you do it a certain way. In the end, though, it can certainly be frustrating. I seriously doubt anyone would take a petition seriously. After all, they're not concerned about getting your money as they've already gotten it. Presumably, you did your homework and researched the system before you spent the money, so they would just say, "buyer beware."

datmrman

I am not sure how far you will get with this endeavor.

If there are discrepancies in the map data, I usually submit a report on the navteq website (http://www.navteq.com/support/mapreporter.html) and hope they update it in their database.

As for the interface of out navigation systems, from a business stand point, I would rather concentrate on updating/fixing the newer 4.x systems (or work out the bugs in future versions - 5.x). To them, its not worth modifying the 3.X system with the 4th gen TL just around the corner.

People who constantly complain about our system need to test drive a Mercedez or BMW. Their systems are usually not even touchscreen. IMO, Acura has one of the better factory integrated systems out there.

dcrandon

I'm not sure how far I'll get either, but if nobody complains nothing happens. By the petition, I didn't really mean like a political thing like it forces change, I just meant getting a bunch of names to show it's not just me being pissed.

Regarding work arounds and stuff...there are no if, ands or buts, the system is poorly designed in terms of the software. I can't find the local Sears or Costco no matter what work arounds I try.

I was just asking if anyone has made "official" complaints or contacts to Acura corporate or Alpine or Navtech.

I've had lots of luck with getting big huge corporations such as Nordstrom, Starbucks, Lenscrafters, El Polo Loco and a few others with making changes (even small changes). The trick is getting to the right people. The usual customer service routes insulate these people from the process. If you find the right contacts you can get things done sometimes.

The fix is simple, they put a few guys on redisgning the software search function for a week, create a patch, and give it to the dealers. This is even what some guys on the forum have said who are software engineers.

The trick is simply getting someone in a high enough position to simply say "Do it".

Also, I disagree about them already having my money, the MOST important thing to the higher ups is that I continue to buy Acura's and Honda's and recommend them to others. These are the poeple that can get things done. Again, the usual customer service route people insulate the execs from this.

Dave

pnoi521

Have you tried doing the search within a city or selecting to do a search my closest proximity?
I was really frustrated by the navi until I found out that that is the way to search. Took me a while to figure it out.
I heard the navigation systems in our Acuras is one of the best out there.No, I didn't hear it from the salesman.
The navi in our old g35 has the easy search function, but everything else sucks. The navi in my TL is definately better.

bluenoise

What I meant about them already having our money is that they're not likely going to go back and work on products that have already shipped when they can instead dedicate those resources to upcoming products. If I was in charge of their program, I'd have my engineers working on addressing the issues and shortcomings of the previous generation products so that next generation's features are better. I am probably more likely to sell new product based on new and better features than I am to people who are glad I fixed previous issues, but didn't have much to invest in newer advances for the next gen. My competition would leave me in the dust, even if their current products pale in comparison to mine. In other words, while Alpine is going back and fixing code for systems they've already sold, the other companies are creating new, more feature-rich products that will more than offset any "brand loyalty" that Alpine may have garnered by fixing that old code. The Acura/Honda system may be the best now, but it won't be next time if they're busy tweaking instead of innovating.

As for finding businesses like Costco, etc. Try this:

1. Look up the main phone number of your local Costco.
2. Do a search on that phone number in your car's navi.
3. If it doesn't find it, it's probably not in the database. That would be something to report to the link datmrman posted.
4. If it does find it, note the category, or categories, listed for the found Costco. In the future, you should be able to find it based on searching those categories.

evantec

I'm not sure how much it matters if you like the NAVI system or not. How often are you going to buy a new Acura or Honda? Or your friends?

At best, for most customers, the questions Buy a factory-NAVI or not? Even if an Alpine aftermarket product were better, people like the convenience of the factory unit. So Honda/Acura has little incentive to make it better or worse. People buy a TL because they like it's styling/handling/value/performance.

In fact, luckily, the NAVI is better than most other luxury cars -- it still as a touch-screen and enough buttons you're not stuck with 1 multi-function controller (like the i-Drive). (Even there, the i-Drive's flaws don't scare people from buying BMWs.)

As for complaining to get things fixed, it may work for customer-focused companies like Nordstroms where there's a lot of competition for commodities. But for cars, where the avg price goes up 3% a year, it's different. If the Acura's factory NAVI is bad, where else can you get an Acura?

Look at Microsoft Windows. It's a monopoly. If you're buying a PC, it's gonna include Vista and you can complain all you want about its bugs but there's nothing that will happen. If anything, if Windows crashes badly enough, you go out and buy a new PC (and Microsoft gets more $$ for the new copy of whatever version comes after Vista).
There's really a financial incentive for the product to be unsatisfactory so you can buy a new version to replace it.

Finally, from the software side, it might be that the menu structure was designed in such a way that the simple patch we think should take a week might require rebuilding the whole system from scratch.

Having said all this, I won't mind if they release a new patch or a new fix.

dcrandon

Yeah, what you've said here makes a lot of sense. It's just frustrating since this shouldn't have happened in the first place. And the amount of money they'd have to spend to fix the problem is a grain of sand compared with there budget. After all, Honda is spending $500 million a year in F1, and they are still backmarkers!

Regarding the MS Vista/Windows...that's exactly why I bought a Mac!

So again though...has anybody bought these complaints "officially" to Acura/Honda?

brianp6621

Trust me, the Acura Nav works very well compared to others. My wifes Lexus IS250 nav while looking much pretty is far less useful, to the point we don't use it. This echos many of the comments about BMW/Mercedes.

The key to good searches is picking a category which is pretty easy for all stores, just choose shopping. It works for me 99% of the time.

evantec

I think in general, becoming computer savvy is a matter of growing tolerant of the quirks of computers, NAVI systems, cell phones etc. In other words, we humans learning to do things the computer way, versus getting the computer to do it better (i.e. the human way). You know the limitations but you are able to work within them because you are not surprised by them. (Kind of like winter driving!)

With every advance, we get teased a little that maybe the computer is going to be able to do something smarter. The computer talks? Maybe it can listen too! NOT. But we're getting there.

I think it's more like magic (in the deceptive sense), where the magician knows the limitations and knows what not to do. (For instance, when interviewing the "talking dog", the magician only asks questions where the answer is the word "rough")

So when you demo the NAVI system to your friends, you make sure beforehand it will actually find their addresses. Kind of like on TV, when someone gets into a car and it starts right up (because the keys were already in it).

- - -

Despite its faults, the NAVI system is still pretty useful and has helped me out of a traffic jam more than once, finding side-streets which were not dead-ends, etc. The kind of stuff where trial-and-error exploring would just burn gas wandering around lost because all the streets in the subdivision looked similar!

It's also good for remembering how to get to familiar places which are still tricky to get to (where intuition might not be correct). It's even useful as a reminder -- if you need to stop by the 7-11 on the way home, just set that as a destination, and en-route the voice will tell you were to divert to. And unlike other NAVI systems, this one can be programmed on-the-fly (assuming you're not too distracted!)

dcrandon

I understand what you are saying, and agree in certain respects.

But this applies I think only when you are dealing with the top of the line stuff.

What's so frustrating with this is that I can buy a $200-300 handheld unit that literally runs circles around our car's units. There is no excuse for that.

JLondon

Amazing that no one has answered your question...

I have lodged a formal complaint to Honda of America / Acura regarding the NAVI both in a letter and with my response on the customer satisfaction survey I received after calling corporate about the search problem of the NAVI.

It's a good thing this is my wife's TL and doesn't have to rely on the NAVI on a daily basis...I'll keep using my TomTom GO in my BMW and Lotus, thank you.

dcrandon

yeah, it's amazing nobody has answered it but you!

Please, anyone else made an official complaint?

Have you gotten any answer back yet.

BTW, I actually found the closest Lowe's Hardware today! I almost fell dead of a heart attack. Of course, I had to make sure I put in the apostrophe, and I also had to press about 7 or other buttons to make it search properly, but I found it!

bluenoise

Interesting to me is that you obviously ignored the advice in this thread on how to search by keyword instead of by name. The fact that you used the apostrophe shows that you weren't just doing a keyword search for 'LOWE.'

Sure, there are features of the aftermarket systems that I wish were included in the TL's stock system, but here are some things that I appreciate about the stock one that are missing from the aftermarket or are unreasonably difficult to implement well:

1. Large touch screen. Some have it, but they don't cost $200-300.
2. Steering wheel controls
3. Fully integrated with the car's audio system so it ducks the volume in the front speakers to issue verbal guidance.
4. Integration with the bluetooth system. Yes, aftermarket ones do this, too, but it requires more installation to work as well.
5. Nicely integrated with the dash for easy reading and access.
6. More difficult to steal via "smash-and-grab" theft.
7. No cords dangling around or items suction-cupped to the dash or windshield. Again, this can be done with the aftermarket, but it's not likely included in the $300 price tag unless you're handy and willing to devote the time to it.
8. It's covered by the car's warranty. Aftermarket would need an extended warranty plan from Best Buy, etc. at an additional cost (albeit still much cheaper in total).
9. Screen dims automatically in sync with the dash lighting.
10. QWERTY input on the screen with large buttons. This was very important to me as I hate entering text as if it's my initials on a videogame High Score list.

In other words, aftermarket devices aren't necessarily better for those of us that appreciate the items I listed above, even if some of the usage features are better. Yes, there are many things about the system that make me frustrated, but I researched the system before I bought it and understood most of its limitations before deciding it was worth my money. None of my issues rise to the level of filing a complaint, though. I wouldn't be surprised if I got the response, "Then why the hell did you buy it?"

dcrandon

It's really this simple, things are much more likely to get fixed in the future you complain about them to the appropriate people, and no matter how you cut it, or which way you look at it, they screwed up unarguably the most basic function of the POI part of the nav, and there is no excuse for it. Would you ever use a program on your computer that was this poorly executed? Of course not.

bluenoise

Actually, I have to here at work. We're forced to use Lotus Notes 6.5 for our email system.

I agree with you that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and so forth. It's just that I doubt these issues will be fixed in the 04-06 nav systems with even the most compelling complaints. They would likely help make the future systems better, though.

JLondon

Bluenoise...I sure can appreciate your "top 10" list and agree with each and every one of them. Just think how complete it would be if the NAVI, with few commands, was able to find (sorted by distance) ANY common NAME or Business, irrespective of its "Category" or "Keyword"

bluenoise

Yes, that would be awesome. I may have given the wrong impression that I'm completely satisfied with the way the system works. I'm not. I, too, would like the name search to be more intuitive and "fuzzy" so that simply typing "depot" gets me all the POIs with "depot" somewhere in their name. I just don't agree that the system is "useless" or completely flawed.

Other features that I've thought would be cool include the ability to have it remember searches with persistence such that icons for the results are always displayed. For example, if I want to know where Starbucks is all the time, store my search as persistent and display them all as special icons on the map just as it does with other POIs, such as restaurants and gas stations. The ability to download custom icons would be nice for this, too.

I'd also like a location-based reminder feature. For example, there is a large pothole on my commute that I have forgotten several times. It'd be cool if I could put that location into the system to display a message when I get near it. This could be used as a reminder for many things, such as reminding me to stop by a certain store on the way to my destination. I do this already, but I am thinking something more like a reminder instead of a destination. In other words, waypoints would be cool, too.

evantec

Yeah - it would be nice of the saved addresses showed up as icons on the map. it's a lot more useful to me than banks or gas stations I know about but don't go to, or ones which are no longer in business!

The limit of 50 or 100 Personal Address locations is a problem, but since the menus only show 4 at a time, it might be worse if you had to scroll through hundreds of pages of choices.

Down the road, there may be a better way to do this that makes more use of the fact that most people have certain preferences and certain places they go to most frequently. In fact, it could even auto-learn based on where the car is started and stopped. It could even color code items based on frequency of visit. Been to the gym every day? Puts the icon on the map brightly. Haven't been there in a month, it fades away. (Or maybe it should be the reverse -- maybe you need reminding of places you do NOT go to frequently.) But at what point does it get too Orwellian?

One of the new high-end radar detectors has a similar feature using a GPS, so you can "geo-tag" locations of known speed-traps. Or of known businesses which give false alarms to the radar detector because their equipment might put out interference on the X or K bands.

Based on that...
For the pothole detector, the NAVI system could tag a location based on severe shock to the wheels. Or better yet, the voice-recognition could detect the sudden outburst of profanity of the driver.

dcrandon

Yes, I know we have the best NAV of all the car manufacturers, but here's another incredibly idiotic thing it does with POI's:

Search for a specific store (such as Starbuck's). Sort by distance to travel or city vicinity or whatever. Gives you a list of the stores based on how far away each is.

But the distance is straight linear distance! Like how the crow flies!

Why the heck would I want that!!

So I pick the closest Starbucks which is 4.3 miles away. But when I OK it for mapping, it's really 7.1 miles away!! The second Starbucks, initially listed as 5.1 miles away comes out as an actual 5.3 miles when I OK it.

Talk about stupid software design. Geez!

kenny5

I have not yet lodged a complaint with Acura, Alpine or Navtech, but I think the best approach would be with Acura directly. Many, if not all, of us bought the TL because of the "package", not just the nav, which in and of itself is not bad when compared with other OEM navs from other cars. If we put enough pressure on Acura, it would in turn put pressure on Alpine and Navtech to improve the database functionality and design. Do Alpine and Navtech supply the nav hardware and software to other car makers?

hsetty

Excellent point. I have also found similar flaws with route calculations versus actual driving distances. Here are some rants/questions:

1) What kind of processor does the nav system use for calculations (I have a 2005 TL)? Is it possible to swap out the GPS/Navi head unit in my 2005 with a newer year unit? Will the Navi's still be DVD based or flash-memory based in the future?
2) If I buy the upgrade DVD will the maps be up-to-date? (I live in Augusta, GA, and the current factory supplied DVD has MANY roads in "unverified" territory with the warning prompts, despite the fact my neighborhood was built 15 yrs ago!!!!)
3) Will Acura partner with Garmin for their next generation of GPSs? As a Nuvi user there is no doubt that their interface is the most intuitive. It was a big step down to settle for the factory unit (particulary calculation speeds - disc vs flash again) :-(
4) If I do search by keyword I cannot sort by distance to travel, but when I search by category then input a keyword I can sort by distance. Has anyone with a similar year TL been able to search by keyword with sorting by distance without having to go by category first?

HS

bluenoise

Now this one I can agree with. I've had similar experiences.

noah82

Think about how slow your searches would be if it had to calculate a route for EVERY SINGLE one of your search results. Even if the navi was flash based, your searches would take hours!

bluenoise

That's a very good point. Given that, I'd rather it be the way it is than have to wait for it. That said, it'd be cool if it populated the list the way it does now, but does the calculations in the background starting with the first hit and working its way down the list. It could update the sort order if the results of the background calculations necessitate it. This would also allow the system to assume your selection so the calculation would already be done when you make it.

Acura2007

Can anyone help me PLEASE!?!?!? I have a 99 TL with Navy. Just this passed weekend, the Navi stopped working. It gives me a message reading "Unable to read cartrige, Contact dealer". Any ideas as to what happened??? I have taken the cartrige out and re-insert it back in but it still dont work.

żGotJazz?

dcrandon -

Actually, it's an excellent software design.

Alpine took the smart compromise here. Have you ever noticed after you make your destination selection how it can take 20 seconds (or more) to calculate your route, and then a handful more of seconds to finally calculate your distance from and time-to-destination?

If Alpine did what you suggested, that amount of delay would occur for each individual entry when you are performing a Navi search. Just to complete the first couple of entries on your search screen would take minutes instead of seconds.

That said, there is only one major change I would request for the Acura Navi system: Let me type a search for just "LOWE", and then sort the results by (crow's) distance. Then, I would get: LOWE's Hardware, LOWEs Hardware, LOWEs Theaters, The FelLOWEship of Ancient Mariners, BLOWEr World, etc.

That's what Microsoft and Google map searches do. If Acura would just eliminate the "Category" requirement for all searches (or, make it optional), I would be extremely happy with my system.

Cheers!

żGotJazz?

Sorry - I had missed that noah82 had already made the same point!