RGHessel

I'm coming to the conclusion that in 2 years when my TL lease is up, the meager collection of DVD-A's that I've purchased wont factor in to my decision to get get another TL (or DVD-A equipped car).

Seems like DVD-A isn't really going anywhere as a viable new format. So few new discs seem to be released... Does anyone have any scoop on how DVD-A is doing in general? Just curious.

seamg

I'm curious about it also. I mean, DVD-A in the TL is awsome, however there are so few titles available. I was in a large record chain the other day and they had far more SACD titles than DVD-A. The formats are not interchangeable.

jjsC5

You guys don't get out much, do you?

The new Cadillac STS is offering 5.1 as an option, as is the Infiniti M45 coming this way next spring. BTW, both of those cars are also offering Bluetooth. It will have a snowball effect. The demand for these options will lead to more manufacturers offering them - just like Sattelite radio is now.

Hawhyen51

Hey guys, DVD-A is a fairly new format and there are a couple of threads on this subject. Give it a chance. With the impending release of Dual Disc at the latter part of this year or early 2005, it should be looking up. I'm keeping my fingers crossed and looking forward to whatever new releases come up. And like jjsC5 said, manufacturers are implementing that format in their vehicles.

haighworld

Unfortunately, it looks like there may be a slight delay in seeing DualDiscs on store shelves:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5626691/

This article suggests that early 2005 is the new target. In any case the sooner the better. I'm sure once this format is out there'll be a large backlog of titles hitting the store shelves.

Hawhyen51

Thanks for the update.....

¿GotJazz?

IMHO - Betamax.

Zeuser

Do you know how long it took for CDs to be widely accepted? DVD-a is probably the next big thing.

But if you want to use the "Betamax" comment, you should simply compare DVD-A vs. SA-CD. That's where the real war is going on. SA-CD being Sony's format will probably end up exactly like Betamax. Haven't Sony learned their lesson yet?

When I bought my first DVD video player, all the rentals and even video stores were still using VHS and I could barely find any DVDs at all! Now, that has completly changed.

Come back in 10 years and see which audio format will be the most popular. Probably DVD-A and I predict that SA-CD will lose the war just like Betamax did.

We just own the first car to have DVD-A from the factory. Once most high end cars start going to DVD-A, CDs will get pushed down the list and DVD-A will take the lead in sales. CDs will eventually be considered the "obsolete" digital form just like how we treat VHS today.

VQ35DE

That's a pretty smart question RG??

As Zeuser posted, the main competition for DVD-A will be/is SACD. From what I understand, there's an ongoing debate as to SACD's range versus DVD-A. (without hearing various types of audio on both, I'll never know which IMO is better.) But the irony here is that SACD and Beta are both Sony created formats. So if that's any indicator, SACD may go the way of Beta, not DVD-A.

Time will tell which'll survive.

Stewie

I vote Betamax.

Over the longer horizon you could say that all disk-based media will be history, especially for music.
That's what I'm thinking and I'll bet you it will happen sooner rather than later.

TheGreatNS

Theres quite a few DVD-As available... go to amazon.ca... and i agree with the person that said give it some time... you'l see

spidey07

unfortunately I believe SACD and DVD-a aren't going to make it.

While as a serious audiophile I applaud these formats and would love to have more availible I just don't see it happening.

I mean most of the general population can't tell a difference anyway. They've got their MP3s and their CDs. Why on earth are they going to map 14-18 bones for a re-released title?

I just don't see it happening.

And this comes from a guy who owns over 1000 CDs and 100 or so hi-rez audio discs.

What WILL take off? multichannel audio ala dolby digital or DTS on that mother of all formats that took the consumer electronics industry by storm...

The DVD.

seamg

I have some DTS titles and some DVD-A titles, both in 5.1 surround. What is the difference between DTS and DVD-A that would make DTS surive and DVD-A not? I thought DTS was just a brand?

Zeuser

You say DVD-A won't make it and then you say the "mother of all formats" that will take-off is DVD. You're contradicting yourself.

Most, if not all, DVD video players will play DVD-A discs.

This is why I predict DVD-A will beat SACD. People watching DVD video dics are already equipped to listen to DVD-A discs and unlike SACD, they don't need to buy anything else.

And lets take cars into consideration too: How many '04 Acura TLs has Acura sold so far? That's a lot of DVD-A players running around on the streets. Add the after-market ones, plus the new upcoming '05 RL and a few other manufacturers are also coming out with DVD-A players in their new cars.

I've yet to see SACD players in cars, except maybe the sony aftermarket radios one can install himself/herself.

It's just a question of offer and demand. As more DVD-A players start appearing on the market and people will want to buy DVD-A discs, like us TL owners, more record companies will start producing the discs to meet the demand.

And while DVD-A discs are probably less than %5 of the music market today, give it 5 years and that number could increase 3 fold or more.

MooooFasa

I agree with spidey on this one. I've been to several "brick and mortar" stores (ie Best Buy, Circuit City, etc.) and it's almost impossible to find anything. I asked a sales rep at Best Buy how the DVD-A's where doing and his reply was that they're no longer ordering them for the store and everything on the shelf is what's left. At Circuit City, the sales rep didn't even know what DVD-A was. It was eventually determined that they don't carry DVD-A's in the store.

If DVD-A doesn't survive on the store shelves, then if I find it difficult to believe record labels, let alone major record labels, are going to keep producing them for the limited internet-savy/audiophile market.

msisaac

This has already been discussed in length on other threads. I firmly believe that the disc format (CDs, SACD, DVD-A) is going to disappear. I don't think people are going to keep buying full albums just to get the one or two songs that they want. As others have already mentioned, with mp3s and other easily portable digital file formats, you don't have to cart around entire binders full of CDs or DVD-As. You can carry a 40 gig Ipod and store tens of thousands of songs in your shirt pocket. As long as the sound quality remains acceptable (I admit that mp3s don't sound as good as DVD-A tracks, but the general population doesn't care), people will opt for the more portable format, and that is mp3s (or whatever format replaces it).

That's not to say that the 5.1 audio you get from DVD-As is going to disappear. It's possible that the next major revolution in music will be an audio format (the successor to mp3s) that includes 5.1 surround.

I think DVD-As will experience a slight spike in sales, but will drop off in a few years and the only things on the market will be portable mp3 players and online music services offering downloadable music. DVD-A enthusiasts will try to convince you that DVD-A is the next big thing, but it won't be. It'll disappear and become a footnote in the history of music. If you do trade your car in in a couple of years, look for one that has some way to integrate an mp3 player or an Ipod (I think BMW already has this, and I guarantee that it will catch on with other auto manufacturers...my prediction? Hyundai will be the next one to do it, and when they do, everyone will jump on it. Hyundai is always the first one to bring newer technologies to an affordable platform, albeit in a cheaper format...).

Matt

Zeuser

DVD-A is just the media being used. DVD discs are fairly cheap these days and the prices just keep dropping. Until you get the $/GB ratio in some other media format that compares to the $/GB ratio of a DVD disc, DVD-A will keep expanding. I don't think we'll ever see a 1 dollar 4.77GB SD or XD memory card!

While I agree that MP3s have changed the way we listen to music (Acquiring and playback), I personally can't listen to them anymore. Not after I've listened to the same song in 5.1 surround.

Here's what I think may happen: Some 5.1 surround file format will appear on the internet that will allow you to copy music files over and over. Then people will get the cheap $1 (even less) DVD discs and using some piece of software, like discwelder, will then burn their own discs and play them in their DVD players.

What you're talking about; buying a DVD-A disc that only has one good song on it, is a problem that has existed since the days of vinyl LPs. That's why we bought those cassette recorders back in the late '70s and early '80s remember? So we could make our own "Favorites" tapes. This problem has nothing to do with LPs, CDs or DVD-As. You're talking about the marketing and packaging of music. This problem will always be there regardless of the media the music is sold on.

VQ35DE

However, neither the TL and RL are high volume cars. Thus, DVD-A exposure will still be minimal. The thing is, will this trickle down (or spread) to other mainstream models BEFORE it becomes obsolete. Unlike power windows or cruise control (where changing technology occurs slowley), car audio technology is RAPIDLY evolving. Now if DVD-A were at least avail in the 7G Accord LX or 7G Civic EX then, you might see this take off faster as the Accords and Civics are high volume models.

Another thing: Other makes (i.e.: Toyota, Ford, VW) have to offer it also in order for DVD producers to see the DVD-A market as viable. If it's a Honda only thing, then you cant expect many DVD-As to appear on the shelves.

As msisaac indicated, I also believe that the 'CD' will be extinct is a few years. As it's NOT portable and is somewhat delicate. I commute by train each day and see so many folks carrying a bulky CD player by hand while I carry a compact Sony MD player (on which I've burned countless MP3s) in my shirt pocket. (Not quite Ipod but, it works well) Add to that the fact that if I happen to drop my MD on the ground and kick/step on it by accident (which I have done in the past), it's not likely to get damaged. Now, if only my Blaupunkt HU could just physically play it (w/o adapter).

Peace.

spidey07

I still just don't see it happening. It takes someone with a fairly strong knowledge in home theater and 6 separate patch cables to even use DVD-audio. When there is a standard digital interface, when there are titles that are reasonably priced, when there is more than a handful of titles...

Then it will take off. But like I said, I don't see any of those three must have factors occuring.

Zeuser

Many people said in the late '80s that CDs would never take off. They were wrong. I was a pro CD guy in the '80s.
Then people said in the late '90s that DVDs (videos) would never take off. They were wrong. I am still a pro DVD guy and have been since '96.

DVD-A naysayers will probably be proven wrong in 5 years or so. Hopefully we're all still around in 5 years when I come back and say: "Told you so!"

msisaac

I think you're still thinking too short term...by the time a 5.1 file format pops up on the internet, there will be Ipods with hundreds of gigs available. Why bother burning a DVD-A disc which can hold only a handful of 5.1 songs, when you can copy most, if not all, of your 5.1 collection to a device that fits in your pocket? Same sound quality, same surround sound, except in one corner you have tens of thousands of songs in your shirt pocket and in the other corner you have several hundred DVD-As. Hell, most users nowadays don't see enough of a difference in regular CDs as compared to DVD-As, so they won't be spending the thousands of dollars to rebuild their entire CD collection in DVD-As. Instead, they may rip their CDs to a portable format like mp3s. People want good sounding music in an easily portable format, and that, my friend, is mp3 and it is not just the wave of the future, but it's here now and it has a much better market share and future than DVD-As ever will.

Exactly, it's all marketing. But now people have a choice. They don't have to buy the entire album anymore. They can go online to iTunes or Napster and pay 99 cents for a single song. Why would someone go out and buy the whole album anymore unless they just like to sample new music. I would say that the majority of my CD collection is worthless, as I don't care for probably 75% of the songs on them. I bought most of my CDs for a few songs. I'm willing to bet that this is the feeling of the majority of music buyers. Most people probably buy CDs for a song or two. Now that they have a choice, I have a feeling that alot of people will begin to switch to online downloads. Which leads us back to the question of will DVD-As make it? Probably not. If the majority of music buyers are downloading their songs from sites, why would they want to burn a disc with only a few songs on it, then get a multi-disc changer in their cars and homes, when they could easily buy an ipod or other mp3 device and carry a hundred times the amount of music in their shirt pockets?

I think the question in this forum should not be will DVD-As make it, but when will DVD-As disappear? All formats disappear in favor of newer formats. I don't think DVD-As will gain enough of a foothold in the short period of time between CDs and online music sites. I hope we are around in 5 years as well, Zeuser. If I'm wrong at that time, I'll freely admit that I was on the wrong side of the camp. But I honestly think you'll be eating your words at that reunion!! lol

Matt

Agent47

IF anything... Sony's SACD will go the way of its BetaMax

DVD-A is not proprietary, like SACD is. So more players from more manufacturers will be DVD-A (just like VHS). Sony, unless they learned from the BetaMax fiasco, makes most , if not all, SACD equipment, and licensing fees if others are making it I am sure are fairly steep.

DVD-A is arguably superior anyway, so all things look in favor of DVD-A for now.

(IMHO)

w1n78

so are they gonna make portable betamax players? i should wait before i get my LCD on the head rests then

ya DVD-A choices are rather small unless your taste pertains to maybe classical. i've seen a lot more of those than what i normally listen to. guess we all gotta be more patient

leeherman

Betamax?

How old fashioned. I have a LaserDisc setup in MY TL, and an Elcaset (look it up!) in dash. Now I'll truly be stylin' if I can only find a 12V 5.1 channel tube amp.



Regards,

Stewie

This is what I found as well. Went to my local Best Buy and they have one small section of DVD-A's and there was very little stock on the shelves. Looked to me like they were just selling off what they had left in stock.
Then I went to Circuit City and when I asked about DVD-A's the guy looked at me like I had three heads. He clearly never heard of them.
Then I went to Media Play and the place had gone out of business so no luck there either.

If these things don't get any support from the big retailers they'll never last.

spidey07

kinda reminds you of laserdisc, doesn't it?

Zeuser

And I say you're totally unrealistic. MP3s have taken a bite out of the CD market but the CD market is still there. The local HMVs haven't closed their doors in my area despite the slump in sales. And even the smaller retail stores are still alive and well.

While you think it's a better deal to download music onto an i-pod, even 5.1 music if and when it becomes available, you are only a very small portion of the population. There's about 1000 times more people with CD and/or DVD players than people with iPods and other MP3 players. So MP3s will keep denting sales but CDs will still sell very well for years to come. And when the majority of people start switching to DVD-A, in 5 to 10 years, the same thing will happen all over again.

I don't think I'll be wrong in 5 years simply because DVD-A has big companies backing it just like CDs now, and tapes before CDs, and LPs before tapes. It's simple evolution. As long as big companies are backing a standard, they'll do anything to push that standard onto the consumer and since 90% of the consumers will follow the trend, it'll work same as it has done before.

Marketing works in cycles. What's hot today isn't hot tomorrow. So you need the next "big thing" to have the hot sales again. That's why people upgrade their computers, buy better digital cameras, buy DVD players, buy plasma and projector TVs, upgrade their stereos to 5.1 format etc. There's nothing wrong with your old computer, VHS player, camera or TV. They probably work just fine. But people always want the latest and hottest toys. They get suckered by the marketing and you get laughed at and called names like "Analog" unless you follow the trend (Remember that commerical? It worked!). pretty soon they'll have a commerical stating that if you're listening to only 2 channels (Stereo) you're a dinosaur. And that is where DVD-A will come in and take off!

You know, CD technology has been around since 1976 (I think) but it wasn't until the late '80s and early '90s that it really caught on. Hopefully it won't take that long for DVD-A but DVD-A WILL be the next hot media for music titles.

boltjames

DVD-A is stuck between the current MP3 / downloadable revolution and technology like HDTV and satellite audio.

It's one thing to pitch DVD-A for all those in-home Home Theater Systems. It's quite another in a vehicle moving along at 70 mph on noisy concrete. For 90% of the driving you'll do, you'll never hear an audible difference....or at least enough to spend $$$ on converting your CD collection.

DVD-A is merely a toy to impress friends in the TL. If they're not wowed by the voice commands, Bluetooth, navi, or sexy blue LED's, they're sure to scream out loud at the Doobie Brothers on the demo disc.

BJ

Bobzmcishl

I must admit that all the hoopla devoted to DVD-A was not justified. It just isn't that great. I only have three DVD-A discs that I felt were worth buying and I quickly tired of them. When I play a regular high quality CD I really don't notice difference in the TL, that I might have noticed playing a DVD-A at home with high quality speakers. I ended up listening mostly to XM radio just for the wide variety of music and non-music options available. I don't use bluetooth at all since it isn't an option with Nextel at the moment. Howver I applaud Acura for including these upgrades as part of the price of the vehicle.

Bobzmcishl

I found that only Tower records and Fry's here in Bay Area carry any DVD-A's in any quantity. Even then it only represents less than 5% of conventional CD's. Barnes and Noble, Tower, Borders all had zero DVD-A selection.

SamPatel

Dvd-a should be around for a while, then when hd-dvd takes off for video, im sure they will come out wit someting like hd audio or something crazy like that. most of the luxo cars will have dvd-a by 2006, mostly optional tho, if they would make it standard like the tl then it would take off faster.

DMZ

The big stores have only a very small selection of DVD-A's.

I have to say that at least half of those I've purchased so far as remakes of old albums like Santana Abraxas have a 6 channel remixing job that was done really half ass. In those cases, I'm happier with the original stereo CD. I'm now leary about spending any more money on these discs.

Zee in NM

I just ordered my TL and was interested in getting an audio DVD. I went to the DVD Empire site but now I am confused. There seems to be quite a few different kinds. What am I looking for? Will the car system play all of these? Will any 5.1 give surround sound or does it have to say DTS 5.1.

leeherman

Overall, I'm quite pleased with the sound quality of the ELS system in the 2004 TL. I've mostly used it for CD, DVD-A, DTS, XM and AM.

AM sounds mediocre, but it's to be expected. I'm generally pleased with XM, although there seems to be a lack of high-end frequencies with some programming. CDs sound great.

I find it a bit annoying that the best DVD-A I own is the one that came with the car. I find myself really enjoying "Long Train Running" and "IGY". They're great songs and were remixed very well.

I've purchased a half-dozen 5.1 discs including DVD-As (a few Silver Line compilations, Fleetwood Mac's "Rumors", 1812 Overture) and a DTS (Eagles - Hell Freezes Over). The sound/surround quality varies among the discs, and NONE of them can touch the quality of the Acura demo disk.

I just bought, and am awaiting arrival of Wavelab 5. I plan to refer to previous threads on mastering DVD-As for tips (gotta use that SEARCH function!); I went with Wavelab because other TLers seem to be satisfied). I plan on stripping the 5.1 audio tracks from a few DVD Video concert discs and making 5.1 DVD-As for the car, plus moving my MP3 collection to a bunch of DVD-As I can keep in the car so I can have my favorites with me when I want 'em. I had a CD/MP3 player in my Camry, and the DVD-A will be able to accomplish pretty much the same thing by allowing me to store up to 99 tracks on a disc.

I'm not yet certain about the longevity of the DVD-A format. I do hope that it survives and thrives, but at very least I'll be loading up home-brew discs with tunes from my vast CD collection.

Regards,

leeherman

Any DVD-A, DTS, or CDs will play in the factory system.

Regards,

SlntSam

If DVD-A becomes extinct maybe the TL would be a collector's car!

oblio98

No one has mentioned the major issue here. DVD-A and SACD were steaming along, gaining momentum, when the music publishers stepped in. To make a long story short, here is what happened.

The music publishers saw that the record companies were selling these new discs as "Multiple format discs", for example, a DVD-A may have "Goodbye Yellow Brick Road" in Hi-Rez Stereo, Hi-Rez Surround, Dolby Digital Surround, and maybe DTS Surround. Bottom line is the customer gets 3 or 4 ways to listen to the SAME MUSIC.

However, the publishers look at this a having 4 times the amount of music on the disc as on a CD. So, they want FOUR TIMES THE ROYALTIES!!!

The publishers then sued to stop these discs from being sold without their "extra" royalties. That is why may of the announced titles have yet to see the light of day, and why only a "trickling" of a few titles are getting to the stores.

This stop of product flow has caused retailers to cut back of floor space and has even caused companies like SONY who backs SACD to lay low and let the format flounder. At this point, only Universal is letting product out, very slowly.

The best hope is for the dualdisc to make a big splash, but that too will be affected by the publishers, and that is why dualdisc is delayed again.

It's just freaking politics, same old sheet!

:-jon

vdubgruven

I had the exact same experience as Stewie...just a week ago! Word for word...

mhudson78660

They have been out for a hile. I picked up the Black DVD Audio on 05/24/01. DVD came out in 97 and was huge a few years later. I do not think it will be the next big thing.

Hawhyen51

Thanks oblio98 for bringing that up, about the record companies. Sony (SACDs biggest backer) and Warner (DVD-A) have really slowed down releasing titles. Since the DVD forum has approved the Dualdisc, these two companies have really been mum about that format. Universal on the other hand has been releasing titles from their catalog on both hi res formats.

As oblio stated: "It's just freaking politics" and IMO, "Greed"