Adamo0926

I read a post on here that said that the stock head unit equalizes the signal to match the stock speakers and make up for an environmental deficiencies inside of the vehicle.

Is this true ?

If anyone knows what that equalization curve is or knows where to get that information, let me know.

Here is my concern:
If the above is true and I replace the stock speakers there is a possibility that the head unit's equalization could make the aftermarket speakers sound like crap. For instance, say the head unit boosts the high frequency range and cuts some mid range frequencies (which is often done with equalization to "open up" the sound")....this could cause an aftermarket speaker that would normally recreate high frequencies very clearly but warmly to instead bring those high frequencies to ear bleeding levels. Yes I know I can cut the TREBLE using the tone control but the problem with that is that a tone control paints with too broad a brush when it comes to controlling the sound. You're not just cutting the high frequencies with a TREBLE contol but the mid highs and some mids as well. One click down can get rid of the harshness but can also muddy up the vocals as well.

I suppose I could get an equalizer and have the installer tune the system....but I really would like to avoid the expense of adding a signal processor to the system.

Of course, if the head unit does not do any equalization in the first place then I have no worries If anyone has a definitive answer on this, then let me know....thanks !

King of Pain

Yes it does

Here's a link that shows the graph. It's not that bad. My ears are not bleeding .....yet.


https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...ght=cleansweep

Adamo0926

KOP,

Thanks for that thread and I read most of the posts. Tell me what you think about my thoughts on it.

1) The guy posting in favor of Cleansweep works for JL Audio....so I would expect him to gush over it, which is what he seems to do.

2) One of the posters mentioned that the frequency response of the factory head unit still comes pretty close to the + or - 3db tolerance even before Cleansweep is applied....which is the industry standard.

3) Mr JL Audio says that aftermarket head units would have a nearly flat frequency response from 20-20,000....I think we both know that is a ludicrous statement, which is why all specs note the + or - 3 db tolerence. Totally flat frequency response from 20-20,000 is a goal that, to my knowledge, has never been reached by any piece of equipment.

4) If that equalization curve is how Panasonic intended it and is created by the head unit, isn't it possible that the equalization is used to tune the sound to the interior of the car and not to make up for any frequency response variations in the speakers ? And if that is true then wouldn't that equalization curve work just fine for an aftermarket set of speakers since almost all speakers (including the stock speakers) should show a frequency response that falls with the the + or - 3db tolerance ?

5) According to his graphs, the biggest variation in flat response is on the front channels. Most separates have 3 crossover settings, low, med and high and can be used to make the speaker sound brighter or warmer....this could help an aftermarket speaker sound great no matter what the head unit is doing to the signal.

In closing....I just don't see the value in using something like Cleansweep. If the frequency response of the stock head unit was completely out of whack, hitting peaks and valleys at certain frequencies of 4-5 db or more....then I could see where Cleansweep would be of great value.

Am I missing something here ? I mean we can talk signals all we want but ultimately the only thing that matters are the soundwaves that hit your eardrum. And what sounds great to one person might sound like crap to another.

zax123

I would say that since the Cleansweep also brings the levels up from the approx 1V pre-amp output from the head unit, I guess a case could be made for it. Otherwise, you're right to think that perhaps the frequency curve is such as it is for the interior of the car. I guess we'd have to test the frequency response of the speakers to know if that is the case...

But there's also a "Matrix" product or something called Matrix6 or something like that which will simply raise the levels from approx 1V to around 4V for input to amps.

Adamo0926

Zax,

It seems like there is a lot of hit or miss here anyway. The sound is going to change significantly by going to aftermarket speakers anyway. For one, the 6½'s in the front doors are full range. Any separates will have a REAL crossover between the 6½ drivers in the doors and the tweeters on the dash. Plus an aftermarket amp is going to crossover the lows and mids and send only the lows to the subwoofer (does this even happen in the current setup or does the stock sub only have cap to keep mids and highs out ?). I think there is just as much a chance of aftermarket speakers sounding fantastic given the current frequency response of the head unit as their is of them sounding hideous. They may, in fact, sound hideous without that equalization curve due to the interior characteristics of the car. I guess I won't know until I decide if I want to replace the speakers.

zax123

You're right, it's hit and miss. I would imagine the signal going to the stock sub passes through a low-pass filter, but could be wrong. Of course, for DTS and DVD-Audio signals, it's a separately encoded channel, but for regular 2-channel sources, I'm not sure.

If you do upgrade your amp and speakers, please let us all know how you did it and how it sounds. It's definitely an upgrade I'm going to look into at one point.

Adamo0926

Zax,

I was already told that the front 6½'s in the door were running full range...I assume the speakers under the rear deck are as well. If a low-pass filter is being used for the signal going to the sub then I assume that the full range speakers are truly running full range and taking even the low frequency signals as well, is that right ? Or is there also a cap keeping the low frequenicies away from the 6½'s ? Obviously the tweeters in the dash are only reproducing the high frequencies and I assume there is a cap keeping out all other frequencies.

The other issue I am confronted with is getting an amp that will allow me to keep the 5.1 Surround. Which means having power for the center channel. There are not very many 5.1 amps on the market. So right now I am looking at a 5 channel amp and keeping the factory amp and letting it power the center channel as it's currently doing. But I think that will leave the center channel horribly underpowered relative to the rest of the system.

Is anything ever easy ????? lol

zax123

Yeah, the 6.5s are getting full-range, and there's a cap on the tweeters. No real crossover. Sad!

Yeah, could use the factory amp for the center. That's what some people do. It'll only show on 5.1 sources. If you don't play a lot of DVD-Audio, that's nothing to worry about.

Personally, I think I'd get a 5.1 amp or a 5-channel for speakers, and a mono for a sub... but not sure... Depends how much trunk space I'd be willing to sacrifice.

Adamo0926

Zax,

Here is the problem with a 5 channel amp. I think every 5 channel amp assumes that the application will be 4 channels and a sub-woofer. So the 5th channel is usually very high power for the sub....usually anywhere from 150-300 watts and the other channels are usually 50x4 or 75x4 (talking RMS power here). Which means I would be wasting 150-300 watts powering that dinky center channel speaker....a little overkill don't ya think ? lol

King of Pain

Adamo0926,

You're exactly right. It comes down to what sounds good to your ears. If flat response was the golden rule then we would not have tone controls.

MSmith works for JL Audio. They have a good product.

Will it be beneficial to the TL? Not sure. Some in this forum have used it and claim it does wonders for the sound. Again, it comes down to your ears and what they perceive to be good sound. The down side to the cleansweep is that it will only work for 4 channels and not the full 5.1 found in the TL. After you upgrade and feel you are missing something maybe you should give these types of signal processors a try. Again, it comes down to what sounds good to you. The TL head unit is actually very good. Not aftermarket, like Alpine or Kenwood, but still very good at what it does. It just has its own sonic signature like all other audio components.

Will aftermarket speakers and amps sound crappy on the TL.

No, not to my ears.

Adamo0926

KOP,

I am 100% sure that if I go with the upgrade I am thinking of, that it will sound very good no matter what. A lot of sound depends on the source material, how the CD was recorded, what equalization was applied to it, etc. Even the sound quality of XM varies from station to station. So I kind of think all this talk about flat frequency response and variations from it is really not all that important. I think upgraded speaker, upgrader sub-woofer and upgraded amplifier will sound great no matter what.

Now the question is this. I have to admit that the TL's stock system is the best sounding stock system that I have had in any of my cars....and by a LOT. I don't really have a problem with the sound characteristics of the system I just find myself at times wishing that it had some more balls, especially in the bass end. I basically have a quote for equipment and labor to make the upgrade and it comes to just under 1700.00. Not a king's ransom but certainly not chump change either. So I have to ask, will I really get that much of a benefiit from doing the upgrade ? Will it be worth spending 1700.00 ?

I'd hate to spend that money only to find out that, yeah, it does sound a bit better and has more balls but not 1700.00 worth. I mean if I can live with the stock system a nice wide screen HD TV would look really good in my living room....

zax123

Adamo,

You sound like a bit of an audiophile. If that's the case, I doubt the $1700 will be wasted. The system in the TL can definitely use a little more balls, and an amp and speaker upgrade will do just that. I would say the $1700 is justified. Of course, it depends on what you're getting. I would be tempted to get JL Audio amps if I do upgrade, and those are expensive... not sure about the speakers yet...

Adamo0926

Zax,

I used to be more of an audiophile than I am now. I used to be big into home stereo equipment but could never afford the really high end stuff....lol. I do like to have high end sound in my cars however.

Here is the equipment I got a quote on:
1) Eclipse PA5532 amp or Eclipse XA5000 amp(new model a little more cash)...both are
rated at 50x4 and 300x1 (RMS) into 4 ohms and 75x4 and 450x1 into 2 ohms

2) Boston Acoustics SL60 separates for the front

3) Bostons Acoustics SL65 co-axials for the rear fill speakers below the deck

4) JBL 10" or 12" subwoofer in a sealed box in the trunk

Of course this would leave the factory amp to power the center channel speaker which would leave that underpowered relative to the rest of the system....but I can't think of any other way around that right now.

I had Boston Acoustics speakers in my last car and loved them. Clear and crisp highs without making your ears bleed. I had a JL-Audio sub box in my trunk with 2 10's and and Eclipse head unit. All of it was powered by Kicker amps from Stillwater Designs. I think my nephew still has his old sub box that had a single JL-Audio 12"....I might steal that from him since it doesn't fit in the car he has now....lol. Might be too boomy for me though.

zax123

Adamo,

Does the $1700 include install for all that? I had Boston Acoustics Pro series in my 'lude with an Alpine V12 amp and they were amazing. I would probably do Boston again. Sounds like you've got a good deal there... let us all know what it sounds like if you go for it. I've spent WAY too much money on my car lately, so I need to take a break from mods and upgrades.

Adamo0926

Zax,

Yes...the quote did include the install. This shop did my last install and I was extremely satisfied with their work. In fact I will give them a plug....Safe and Sound in Chicopee, Massachusetts....lol.

I will go to a place that has a top notch installation reputation even if I am limited to the equipment they are a dealer for. As long as they carry top notch equipment, which this place does.

When I did the system in my last car I thought about the Boston Pro Series but the titanium dome tweeters were too bright for my taste. So I went with the model that had a soft dome tweeter which provided a warmer sound but still crystal clear. The Boston SL60 separates use a soft dome tweeter as well. I know I stand a better chance of frying the soft dome tweeters because of power handling capabilities....but I'm not going to cranking up the tunes to window shattering levels anyway....at least not often....lol. I was a headbanger at 25, at 48 I am still a headbanger at heart but it's been tempered a bit

zax123

Wow, that's a great price, and I totally understand about reputable places. They are hard to find... I do all my own installs now and probably will for a while in my life. Maybe until I stop customizing cars.

I actually didn't listen to the Pro series before getting them last time. By brother was a Boston dealer so I got a crazy price on them and jumped at it.

Adamo0926

Zax,

I keep seeing great pictures of TL's on this site with great aftermarket rims and tires so I have a dilemma.....do I do the rims and tires or upgrade the audio ??? And if I don't do either there is always that wide screen HDTV that would be perfect for watching Red Sox games....

zax123

hehehe. Well, I've gone totally nuts with my car and changed way too much... rims and tires and bodykit included. If I get myself a winter-beater, I'll do the sound system on my TL. Otherwise, I gotta keep the trunk space.

Adamo0926

Zax,

What size rims did you put on your car ? And what tires ? I had a set of Pirelli P Zero Nero M&S on my Jetta GLX and I loved them.

zax123

I put RonJon 1pf Devotions. He's a sponsor on this forum. Makes wheels custom for Honda/Acura. They are beautiful. I had them painted black. I have yet to lower my car. Suspension is on backorder.

here are pics: http://www.robertcotran.com/persepho...ges/wheels_on/

I put General Exclaim UHP (not expensive) tires 19". They are really quite awesome for the price.

Adamo0926

Zax,

Are there dealers that carry RonJon wheels ? Or do you have to order them online ?

zax123

You have to order from Ron directly. His nick is rondog on the forums. He's super cool. You can find out about his wheels in the Black Market.

Adamo0926

Zax,

What did you have for a sub-woofer in your last car ? Like I said, I had a sealed box with 2 JL-Audio 10's. I just talked to my nephew and he still has the sealed box with 2 JL-Audio 12's that he had in his last car so I could steal that....lol. That might be too boomy for my taste though.

Do you have any preferences or suggestions for subs in a sealed box ? Something that can kick but still sound musical and not too boomy.

zax123

My last car didn't have a sub actually. I'm not HUGE on bass... I just put a ported 10" MTX sub box into my girlfriends '99 Prelude and it's not too aggressive at all. As I said, if I were to put a sub in my car, it would probably be a 10" sealed, not ported. Ported enclosure is too big and I don't want to lose a lot of trunk space, and since I don't need a lot of bass, it would be plenty for me.

Jaa99pa

Adamo, That seems like a verrry good price for your upgrade. I haven't priced those items, but with labor, that's a great deal. Are you keeping your dvd-a capabilities? Where are you having the amps mounted? I've been doing research on here to figure the best way to upgrade this system. KOP has been a big help to me, since i'm going to atempt to do this job myself. Two different places gave me a quote of $3000 to $4000 to do what i want done. I have a 5.1 channel amp on order that should be here on Thursday. It's now discontinued, but i'm getting it from an online retailer. I really don't want to take up a lot of space in the trunk.
And if i had a choice between upgrading the audio or rims and tires, i'd go with the audio. I go through withdrawl every time i turn on my system. Last car was so much stronger.
Since i already have my big-screen HD set, i can focus on my car now

Adamo0926

Jaa,

The installation is going to be straight forward. I haven't had a chance to let the installer take a good look at the car yet so I don't know where the amp would be mounted. I don't plan on having him do a "show quality" install with plexi-glass, lots of customization, etc. I'm more interested with what hits my ears than what hits my eyes. I do plan to keep the 5.1 capablilty, so for now I will keep the factory amp and let it drive the center channel speaker as it's doing now. I might change the center channel speaker to a speaker that is very very efficient so that it can play louder using the lower power that will be provided from the factory amp making it a better match with the rest of the system.

I was just listening to Third Eye Blind in my car and the stock system can kick pretty well on more current discs like that because they are so well recorded with more up to date technology in the studio. The stock system is a very well balanced sound and the best stock system that has ever come with any car that I have purchased. I almost bought a Lexus RX-330 and would have added the optional Mark Levinson audio system with that. I would love to hear what that sounds like....reviews I have read call it phenomenal, which I don't doubt since Mark Levinson Inc makes some of the finest home stereo equipment on the planet.

But one of the things that still has me hesitating is this....as good as this installer is, I hate the thought of my car being ripped apart and being put back together. I am always afraid of buzzes and rattles showing up, although with good installers that shouldn't be a problem. He did a fantastic job on my Jetta GLX and that was a more extensive install than this would be....that included a new head unit.

kyle-wdp

I hate to jump in late......I recently removed the Cleansweep piece from my car and added the Dave Novone LOCs and saw a great increase in quality and volume from my sound system that was already in place.I had noise and pops that have gone away. I caught signal after the factory amp and have the gains on my amp ALL THE WAY DOWN. It sounds great.

I was a big Boston Acoustics fan and the store that I by my equipment from (which I managed all through college) swayed my towards the focals. I say give them a listen. I decided against using seperates because I am not convinced the factory tweeter location is ideal, but everyone does what sounds good to their ears.
Good Luck

Adamo0926

Kyle,

First let me compliment you on your tire choice.... As for the factory tweeter location, it really is an ideal spot. I had a Jetta that had the tweeters in the dash firing up like that and they sounded great. The problem with having the high frequencies coming from a full range or coaxial in the door panel is this.....high frequency waves are extremely directional as opposed to low frequencies. That's why you can have a subwoofer box in the trunk and have the drivers firing away from the cabin and still hear great bass....low frequency waves are not directional at all. Tweeters should be as close to ear level as possible....when they are in the door panels some of the crispness and clarity of the high frequencies will be lost. So in the stock system, even though the speakers in the door panels are full range, Elliot Scheiner decided to add tweeters in the dash to compensate for the loss of clarity of the high frequencies that are down by the passenger's feet.

The TL stock system is really very well balanced....I mean Scheiner is no hack, he's a Grammy award winning recording engineer. If they had ever offered an option with upgraded speakers and a more powerful amp I would have jumped at it. It's one of the reasons I am still waffling on getting this upgrade, because the sound quality of the stock system is really good. I know it can use some more balls but I have a fear that if I do that I will lose out on the quality of the current setup.

kyle-wdp

Adamo,
IMO The ideal mounting location for the tweets would be the kick panel aimed at my head. That would be the path where the left and right speaker would have the smallest difference in distance the sound had to travel to get to me. The doors give me the closest I can get to that without having one tweet in my ear and one 6 ft away from me. No doubt it would brighten it up and may even give me a little more volume if I mounted some in the dash and I may try it in the future but I have played the system with the oe tweets with my focals and it was just too bright for my taste. To each his own though. If I upgrade my system again, I will add Focal seperates (toying with the tweeter location) and delete the rear fill.

I do love the P-Zeros, and will own another set when I put 18s on my car!

Jaa99pa

Does anyone know the actual size of the speaker opening in the door? The rear deck speakers seem to be a hair bigger then 5.25 inches, but i never removed the door panel to measure that one....