CaryTL

spent several days and paid gallons of sweat to install speakers and a 4-channel amp, and now I got so frustrated that I want to give up

the current problems are:

1, thump sound when I start the car (turn key to on)
2, engine whines loudly in speakers
3, engine clicks loudly in speakers
4, click when I turn off the car.

the current setup:

HU line out for front and rear channels before stock amp are cut and soldered to CAT5, which runs back to trunk on right side of car, along with 2 front speaker cables and amp remote on wire.

4 gauge power from battery to distrution block under driver's seat, 8-gauge to amp in trunk. amp grounded to the factory ground point behind rear seats. the ground point was sanded.

engine whining and clicking as soon as one of the RCA inputs gets connected. no noise with muting plug only (shorted RCA plug). amp gain is set to quite low now, the whining and clicking sound not too bad, but clearly audible, while I have to set HU volume > 20 to get normal music level.

I've also tried another amp, but the remote on signal couldn't turn on the amp at all! the voltage drops to ~5V when connected (~13V floating).



BTW, just as if it was not bad enough, one of the amp channels decided to go bad.

bklynpanman

jl audio cleansweap.. problem solved

fatalglitch

Yikes....

The "pop" when you turn on the car is because the audio system is turning on before the amp......

The whines and clicks are usually due to non-shielded wire picking up AC current noise and feeding it into the amp. Power in a car is of the DC variant, but you can find AC current in various parts of the car. AC and DC are completely different types of power. I would remove that CAT5 (which is highly unshielded), and instead use 2 Lineout converters by the factory amp, convert to RCA, and run the RCA's to the trunk.

As far as fixing the pop when the car turns on and off, you probably will want a remote turn on delay. Google around, i'm pretty sure PIE and Blitz make setups for that. Or, instead of using remote turn on from the factory amp, run a FUSED(this is important in ALL vehicle wiring, fuse all 12V leads) wire from the ignition column hooked up to the Ignition wire back to the amp. Or setup a relay that pushes straight 12V from a reliable source when ignition is on. Couple of ways to do it....

Tom

noah82

Sometimes a ground-loop isolator will fix the whining and hissing problem...it did the trick when I had my car-pc installed.

Darkcyde024

iTrader: (1)

I'm no audio guru but shouldn't you put the line out AFTER the stock amp where the signal is cleaner and more powerful. I've read many posts where people are using their LOC's after the stock amp with no problems. What's a cat5?? I'd go with some nice line output converters (try dave navone) connected after the stock amp. And the ground loop isolator should help too!!

Darkcyde024

iTrader: (1)

wow.... just read a little about the cat5 cables!! I think that is your problem!!!! They are unshielded which in a car, will create noise coming from other components.

"Cat5 cables are not even designed to avoid airborn noises, since these noises are simply canceled when the noise gets to the receiver. BUT, since unbalanced car stereo amplifiers don't have this magical noise canceling ability, since they are not balanced and they simply do not treat the RCA signal and ground shield the same at all, using the CAT5 cable (or probably any UTP cable) may NOT be the best idea"

Check out this link!!! http://www.installer.com/tech/cat5.html

CaryTL

thanks guys! last night I tried putting an audio transformer between RAC plug and amp, and it seems to be working, so it should be a ground loop problem, for the engine noise part. the amp ground is in good shape now, although I'm getting better O-ring connector and will solder the wire on, with more sanding on the chasis. but I suspect how good the HU ground is... anyone knows where is it, and which wire?

regarding using CAT5 for low level signals, there are people claiming UTP is better than shield cables, and quite some "quality" audio patch cables are UTP now.

I don't have too much budget, if I had to buy a JL cleansweep, I would rather take everything off and back to factory setup

regarding startup thump, I will install a delay circuit to let amp start later than HU, as well as taking the amp mute signal for turning the amp off (center channel uses a separate amp, for HFL). later I will be using a shutdown controller to control them when I install carPC.

CobraGuy

One other suggestion...check the turn on voltage to your amp. For example, the amp in my wife's Aviator uses 5 volts to turn it on via a control module. The module relays to 12 volts for power. When you install an aftermarket head unit, they can use 12V to turn on the amp. When you hook it up, you get a very noticable pop or thump when you turn it on. The simple fix is a voltage regulator. Works perfectly.

Chester

jeebus...cut all that crap out and just get a navone 4 channel LOC with some butt connectors.
I just put one in my TL, and I got the signal after the amp...None such issues.
I Probably wouldnt use the cat5 either, but thats just me.

BukvaMan

im using the novone 4channel and have hissing noise all the way so i dont know if that is a good idea either......

Chester

no offense, but you must have done something wrong.
(unless your navone converter is not at 100%)

I dont have any hiss, and I have metal dome tweeters, if there were some, I would certainly hear about it.

CaryTL

I got replacement amp and installed it. I also worked on getting better ground for the amp -- better O-ring connector, sanded, crimped and soldered, chasis sanded more.

engine noise is lowered to about half (gain turned to middle get same noise level as about 1/4 before). I'll find out where the HU is grounded and try to get better ground for it too, as well as alternator and battery grounds.

I'm not willing to use stock amp and LOCs... the stock amp is too cheap to have anything good out of it, and more components= higher chance for problems. if I have to do things beyond getting better grounding, I would just use audio transformers to break the loop (or use audiocontrol matrix if I have enough money).

King of Pain

More components=higher chance of problems???

But you're saying that if what you are currently trying does not work then you will go to more components (=higher chance of problems) (audio transformer and Matrix)

In my first attempt at upgrading my audio I went down the same path you are currently on. I had the same problems. After lurking around the car audio forums and talking to pro installers I went back to the stock amp and LOCs. I sold my matirx. Could not be more happy with the results. Anybody that has heard my audio (the last SoCal Mega meet) has been pretty impressed.

My suggestion would be same as Chester above. No offense to Bukvaman. I am using the navone 4 channel and the navone 2 channel with clear sound.

That's my

PsychFish

drop the $$ on decent wires.... ditch the Cat5 as its not designed for Audio. The twist on the pairs in the cable are not designed for audio.

Darkcyde024

iTrader: (1)

exactly... if you read my post I think that's where he's getting most of his problem. and how much are nice twisted rca's??? 20 bucks!! c'mon If you do it right the first time you will save money in the long run!!!

good luck!

CaryTL

King of pain: I would rather to get the problem fixed without adding any components. as I mentioned, my problem is ground loop and the fix is to get better ground for all components (there are only two: HU and amp).

psychfish: apparently my problem is ground loop not low quality cable. I've tried a RCA audio patch cable and it was same noise. are you sure $$ on cable would do the trick?

Chester

Yeah... Why do it the easy way when there is a hard way-LOL!

In all sincerity, I do hope you figure your problem out.

triggle

At least make sure your UTP is stranded. The solid stuff is more common but may not be as good for a low level audio signal. You can also get shielded cat5 STP but I am not certain if it is also available as stranded.

I don't see any advantage to twisted pair over a decent coax since your signal is not differential. Twisted wire only cancels noise when used with differential amps. If you are into quality go to a high end audio shop that does pro stuff and get some nice wire designed for the application.

King of Pain

Good luck

I hope it all works out for you.

BukvaMan

i have rca shielded cabels and all my connections are solderd. the ground is a very good ground. the only thing i can se is that my rca and speaker cabel meet with the power cabel in the trunk for about two 3 feet. maybe they are picking up something sice the speaker wires are not twisted or shielded.

CaryTL

I'm using the easiest solution for now -- ground isolators built with audio transformers. except slightly turn off click, all other noises are gone now.

before this I also checked running amp with isolated power supply, and didn't get engine noise. this showed that everything before amp was good, the CAT5 didn't pick up any noise. and muting RCA plug gave no noise either showed that amp and amp power were good too.

the only thing left was ground loop. and now ground loop isolators work.

however, this is not the "right" way to correct the problem, neither using stock amp with LOC (most LOCs isolate ground too). ground level mismatch should be corrected by better grounding for all components.

CaryTL

bukvaman, it's almost not possible for speaker wires picking up noise loud enough to be audible. RCA might, but if they are picking up power noise, it should be engine whining (change with engine RPM). if not, your hissing noise likely because of fault or poor quality components. try play with gain levels to minimize.

frenchnew

The only difference between solid conductor and Standed will be the flexibility provided by the standed wire which will have less tendencies to break when bent repeatetly. No Audio differences between the Solid conductor and Standed conductor.

As far as High End shops, they are only interested in their high profit margins.

There are too much marketing hype from the Interconnect manufacturers and blind testing tend to prove that their promises are as true as a political campaign.

Best regards

Frenchnew (Electronic Technician for the past 30 years)

BukvaMan

i dont think im using poor components as i maybe said before the sound is incredible. clean as it can be the only thing is when i do play with locs i can minimize it but its still there. the more i turn them the more noise i get. now i have them little less then half way. i have the same exact problem as zax......

BukvaMan

is it good to use ground loop insolators?????

frenchnew

It all depends on their quality. Some of the low priced one will not reproduce the full audio frequency and will lack in bass. Ground isolators are transformers that have their primary and secondary winding elctrically isolated. The signal (Music in this instance) is coupled magnetically.

Other are quite fine but expensive (Jensen Transformer) see:
http://www.jensen-transformers.com/datashts/ci2rr.pdf

this is just for 2 channels at around $130USD.

If you can solve your noise issue without having to use ground isolators, you will save about $400

Depending on how you tapped into the audio wired at the TL amplifier, you could try to connect just one line at your aftermarket amplifier input and see if you still have noise. If the noise is gone, you have ground loop issues.

Get back to me with the list of how many amplifiers did you add to your system and maybe we could try something that is not going to cost an arm and a leg.

Best regards

frenchnew

Chester

Hrm. Sounds like a Navone converter might be the way to go.

CobraGuy

Well...I disagree a bit with that...although you may be correct with speakers since there isn't a lot of current involved.

It is proven that electrical current flows on the outside circumference of the wire. Little of it flows through the center of the wire. Therefore, with stranded wire, you have tons of wires with many circumferences to flow current...where with one solid wire, you only get the one. The many small wires give you a much larger area to flow current.

BukvaMan

i am using one infinity 6 channel amp. wich four of them i use for speakers and the last two are ment for the subs. i picked the signal after the stock amp through david navone LOC's. my amp exepts 6.5V max signal i dont know if that makes a difference or not. the more i turn the gains on the loc the more white noise i get. The quality of the sound is amazingly good its just that even when i have the radio turned off or at 0 level i hear that noise. im using the amp on wire from the stock head unit to turn on my aftermarket amp. i guess it turns it on as soon you have the key in the second postion. with that said the noise wouldnt really bother me much if i could have the amp turend off when i turn of the head unit. But still i would like to resolve it, since i did so much work on it i would like to finish it all the right way. This is my first install so im very pleased so far... so im asking u guys for some help if you dont mind... i see a lotta people have some knowlage here.

BukvaMan

forgot to put in, doesnt matter wich rca i connect to the input. Front back just one of them i still get the same noise. i didnt try the speakers individually maybe i should do that too..

Black_05_TL_6SP

This is sort of correct. It is actually determined by the frequency of the signal in car audio and electricity. A low frequency (or fat signal) will actually travel down the center of the wire more, while a high frequency (or thin signal) will tend to travel on the outside. So blend all of it together and it will use the entire wire.

CaryTL

current travelling on outside of the wire is called skin effect. for human audible frequency (<20kHz), it's too low to have any real effect on the sound.

frenchnew

Great Theory for High Frequencies Applications (way above 100Khz).

As someone else pointed out, this does not really applies to audio frequencies even if some companies would like us to believe so.

frenchnew

Does this noise vary in frequency with the engine's RPM when the Engine is running?

If not, I believe that you input's levels on your amp are set too high and pick to much noise coming from the TL Amplifier.

There are also ajustable pots inside that Navone converter.

I would try to set both the Navone's adjustements in the middle and your amplifier ajustments to the lowest position and try to check if you still have noise with the volume on the radio at 0.

If you still have noise, lower the ajustment on Navone's converter until the noise disapears with the Radio volume at 0.

Best regards

frenchnew

luvthisstuff

I am brand new and maybe this is obvious to everyone else but on the off chance its not here we go.

The TL Bose system is the most annoying sound system I have ever worked with. Everything in the car is wired to 1 ohm. I am still using stock speakers (although not for long I hope) but I just but in a Avic-N2. After talking to my audio guy, if you wish to install speakers, there is a certain wire (sorry I don't know which one) that you will have to ground before you do anything, its also possible (depending on which Bose system you have) you might have to reqire you entire audio system.

I am not an expert by any means, just relaying some info back, I have dealt with two bose systems (my TL and my old girlfriends Maxima) and they were both a pain. However my TL now with the Avic sounds perfect.

frenchnew

FYI, the 3rd gen (2004-2006) TL sound system is provided by Panasonic, not Bose.

Not 100 percent positive but most people who have played around at upgrading their TL sound systems on this board have mentioned that the factory TL speaker impedance is 2 Ohms.

Better watch out as far as grounding wires on the TL's Original amplifier unless you are willing to pick up the cost of repairs.

It sure sounds like your Audio guy does know alot about Car Sound Systems

Car to share his name so that we can avoid him!

Another pointer for you here Your posting is what is commonly known as hyjacking a thread.

This thread got started because some people where experiencing some noise issues with their car audio installations and your post contributes nothing to this thread

BukvaMan

i think my problem is with the navone loc even at the lowest point i still have hiss in the background. would i be better off with something else. i didnt spend to much money on my equipment but i got some decent gear lets say. so i dont wanna spend 300 $ or more for a signal processor. is there anything else that might work better . i just saw audiocontrol lc6 and lc8, anyone experienced with those ?????

BukvaMan

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/viewitem.php?id=6359

BukvaMan

or is this maybe better http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_6361.html

frenchnew

Have you tried lowering the trimpot input levels onyour amplifiers too?

Right now, the only thing I can think of is that you input levels on your amps are turned up too high (too sensitive) and picking up whatever little noise travelling in the signal wires.

Changing the LOC to another one will not cure your problem but drill the hole deeper in your wallet.