SouthernBoy

Ok, so a short while ago, I finished reading Car and Driver's road test of the new 2005 Mustang in the December issue (I'm behind on a few things here). I really like what Ford's done with the Mustang.. they're not resting on the fact that the Camaro and Firebird are no longer a threat. The new 'Stang is a good car. I hope and expect Ford will sell a boat load of the new Mustangs.

Anyway, I got inspired from reading the article and it's been a little while since I've nailed the TL in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, so off I went to a few nice, secluded two-lane roads to wind it up a little. Besides, it's cold here today (48 degrees.. yeah, that's cold to me), so the air is good and dry and oxygen-dense.

I got to a good point in the road and slow down to around 1800-2000 RPM in first gear. Then I nailed it and carried through to around 70 MPH in 3rd. Suddenly, the disappointment set in. It just didn't feel that quick.. certainly not as quick as my former '02 Altima SE (which I had modded with a Frankencar/Apexi WAI, a UR UDP, and a full Mossy catback exhaust). But something else was noticable. When I shifted to 2nd and 3rd gears and went WOT, I noticed that there was a definite lag in the engine's power delivery. I first thought it might have been due to shifting that placed the next gear right before VTEC stepped in and having "caught" the engine at a point where full power was not being produced. It was definitely there and definitely noticable.

So I tried it a second time on another piece of good road and the same thing happened again. It feels slightly similar to lifting your foot a little up on the throttle and then easing back into it right after the shift. Of course, this just did not seem right. Then I headed back to the same section of road where I got into it the first time, only this time as I slowed down to go into first gear, I turned the VSA off. And this time, it was a different story.

As soon as I nailed the throttle, the car broke traction and spun the tires as long as I stayed in the throttle in first gear. I lifted for an instant to gain traction then got back into it again and broke traction again as well. When I shifted to second gear, I spun the tires more than the other two times and there was ABSOLUTELY NO power lag from the engine. It was full on the moment my foot went to WOT. Same thing in 3rd as well.

So people, remember. For normal driving around, the VSA is fine and obviously works as designed. But for more serious work at hand, disengage the thing and let your experience and your feet and hands do the work. The car has a whole different personality without the VSA on when you're looking to drive with some measure of performance in mind.

A-TLvic882

That's why we have 6MT.

BrandNewTL

I had a red '99 Cobra Convertible. When I test drove a 6MT TL I had to admit I liked the overall feel of the TL better. It seemed more lively off the start, had a much nicer clutch/shift action and seemed to deliver power more evenly. I really think the new TL is a blast to drive.

Lore

Wouldn't VSA affect your 6MT as well?

SouthernBoy

Ahh.. that's my whole point. My TL is a manual and the difference of VSA being turned off can most definitely can be felt. When you are after the most power you can deliver to the asphalt, you do NOT want to be using VSA. Save it for normal driving and/or when conditions so call for it.

midas69

My 2002 Maxima was the same way. If I really wanted to launch, I turned off the traction control. You did have to rely on your driving at that point though because you'll just be donating rubber to the asphalt if you just punched it.

geminis2

Does this work for automatic TLs??

'

midas69

Yes

A-TLvic882

With VSA "OFF" 6MT TL TOTALY different car.

subinf

Yeah, that is exactly what I experienced yesterday on a drive. I would exit a turn and mash hard on the gas, most of the time i was in 2nd gear, and it felt as if the engine was going to bog our or something, the traction control came on, really wasnt the kind of drive i wanted to experience. I didnt think to turn off the traction control but will do that and see what kind of difference it makes.

Lore

Well, yes - but the same applies for the 5AT. I'm just pointing out that when someone says "That's why I got the 6MT" it makes no sense because turning off the VSA will work wonders for both vehicles, regardless of its transmission.

Or maybe I have no idea what you're taking about (Which is definitely possible!)

A-TLvic882

I'm just pointing out that when someone says "That's why I got the 6MT" I like drive my car, but not a car computer drive me.

johnny_software

I have a stupid question. My effing manual says (pgs. 54 & 190) that the "VSA Activation Indicator" (the exclamation point in the triangle) blinks when VSA activates, either during cornering or while helping to maintain traction while accelerating.

I have the 5AT, and no matter what technique I use to accelerate from a dead stop (roll on throttle in auto, floor it, or attempt my personally-clumsy Lo -> SS shift), the indicator never comes on.

To me, this means I'm never hitting VSA, and therefore wouldn't see a difference if I switched off. Do you guys see the indicator when you floor it with VSA on? Is it possible that it activates and deactivates too quickly too see/register on the panel?

If it wasn't so rainy here I'd experiment on the way to work tomorrow

Dr.Murdock

I remember launching fro ma stop in rainy weather and saw my VSA light blinking. Blinked for a very short time and then stopped. I don't think there is any need for VSA is good weather since i never saw mine being activated other then the times when i shift at higher rpm's fro ma stop on a wed road.

Ken1997TL

I think VSA and TCS work silently far more often than the indicator lights would have you believe. I'm betting there is a "gray area" where both work just a little bit to keep things under control, the lights dont come on so as to not cause a panic. Perhaps they only go on when things are really out of hand?

johnny_software

I'd buy that. It begs the question, though, of how much the VSA disable button actually disables. I know Benzes only reduce the intervention when the ESP is "disabled", unless the driver goes into a special undocumented service mode. Makes you wonder what our cars are really up to, huh? What I wouldn't give for an hour with a Honda engineer...

wavshrdr

Actually I don't get your point. With the 5AT you can shift it yourself. This macho junk about the 6MT vs. 5AT gets a little weary. I bet back in the day of when you had to manual adjust the spark advance you would decry the fact that those new fangled '30 models dun did away with my manual spark control. I am not a real man unless I can control my own spark and you took away my little lever on the steering column and made it automatic for me.

Do you really realize how much the car's computer already does for you? It controls so many things you can't believe. Why aren't you lamenting the inclusion of drive-by-wire?

I don't know if it is because I am getting older, have more experience or what but many times the AT choice is better for many cars than the MT. Automatics have gotten that good. With the SS or Tip type versions you can have your cake and eat it too.

I would be willing to bet that that even more people would buy the TL 5AT if they copied what MB does with their AMG tuned auto where the tranny locks up the TC in every gear. Then in effect you have no slop when you let off the throttle and that is what I like least about most automatics. Add to that the LSD and you'd have an automatic that'd run heads up with the 6MT in almost every situation assuming the gearing was similar. The motor isn't really that peaky so a CR gearbox is not that huge of a help. The 5AT does have a weight penalty too but that could be worked around as well.

Anyway I notice the VSA light comes on frequently in my 5AT. Either one of the cars has more than enough torque to light the tires off the line and invoke the VSA and I think the 5AT is more prone to it because of the torque multiplication with the TC.

ayethetiense

uhm.... 5 AT here.... when i punch it from a dead stop, it peels out and the VSA light blinks, then a split second later.... it slows the wheels down to gain traction....

if i turn the VSA off and i gas it, i peel out a lot longer..... never held it there to see how long but i give up before traction sets in.....

even though the tires "suck" (they feel ok, could be a lot better, but not as bad as people complain)... i still want to preserve them.....

i definitely feel slight power loss if the VSA is on..... it seems like it lags a little bit before it gives the power i expect.... things seem more instant with the VSA off.....

even though people will say that the VSA only activates when it turns on and only after the tires start to lose traction.... it just doesnt feel like it......

johnny_software

Interesting! Thanks for the feedback. Seems as though I have some experimenting to do. Maybe I've been too focused on things other than the VSA light before...

tlram

wavshrdr,

i thinnk the biggest reason most people bought a manual is that there are still lot of things that you can do with a manual that are hard to do with an automatic. Just launching from a stop can be done with so many variations with a manual and you can choose based on your mood at that point. I agree that automatics these days have come a long way and are better for normal driving. But for those times when you feel a little out of the normal, manual is hard to beat! besides, shifting the TL is sooo much fun !

just my 0.02...

SouthernBoy

To tlram;

Amen to that. I would never buy an automatic for my personal driving machine simply for the fact that I love to drive so much. And for me, the fun factor is hugely linked to a manual transmission.

Yep, a personal preference for sure. But my preference hasn't changed for over 40 years in this regard.

dcarlinf1

The original post had nothing to do with 5AT vs 6MT. This is about VSA. Turning it off on either makes the car much more interesting. BTW - I have a 5AT TL because I don't see the point in having a manual FWD drive car. AWD/RWD yes, FWD no. And, like wavshrdr said, with the 5AT you can have your cake and eat it too. Shifting manually gets old quick while in traffic.

SouthernBoy

To dcarlinf1;

You wrote,

"And, like wavshrdr said, with the 5AT you can have your cake and eat it too."

I don't eat "automatic cake.. no manually operated clutch for one thing". And as for, "Shifting manually gets old quick while in traffic.".. not for me. I don't give it a second thought and have never wished for an automatic.

Again, a strong personal preference.

But your "The original post had nothing to do with 5AT vs 6MT. This is about VSA." was dead on. While I certainly enjoy hearing other people's opinions and experiences, I was just relating my observations this past weekend regarding our TLs' VSA.

wavshrdr

I used to be a die hard manual tranny addict then I lived in some cities where the traffic was just so terrible I got fed up with it. I was replacing clutches about every 10k miles. I do disagree with other comments when people say there are many things you can do with a manual that you can't do with an auto. I would argue the opposite that there are many things you can do more easily with an automatic that you can't do with a manual.

For example if you are stuck in snow it is MUCH easier to rock the car back and forth with an auto than a manual. You can do the much enjoyed full speed reverse and slam it into drive technique.

It is easier to modulate one pedal than two if you are trying to take off on slick surfaces. I still think the clutch engagement is rather abrupt and non-linear on the 6MT. You can launch an automatic car much more consistently than you can a MT. If a full manual tranny is so great why don't F1 cars use them?

A well designed AT can have every benefit of the MT and do things you can't with a true MT. Why are people so stuck on having a clutch? One of the most incredible race cars of all time was a total AT car. Maybe some of you aren't familiar with Jim Hall but he was my idol growing up. This guy was the godfather of aerodynamcis for modern day race cars. He is the reason I went into aeronautical/aerospace engineering.

Maybe some of you remember the Chaparral "2" series of cars. My favorites were the 2E and 2J. 2E didn't need no stinking VSA. It had a small block Chevy motor and auto tranny with lockup TC! Instead of a clutch pedal the driver had a pedal to adjust the angle of attack on the wing for more downforce in the turn and to level the wing out at top speed for less drag. He didn't need no stinking clutch and it was only a 2spd tranny! clutch

Yet he went out and kicked serious a$$ against the best cars in the world and some of the best drivers. His cars were so good they got outlawed. Case in point is the 2J aka the "Sucker" car. It was raced 4 times and then was outlawed! If you haven't read anything about this man and you are a gearhead at heart, you should check out how innovative he was.

I do have a VSA related question for you who have 6MTs, do you feel the VSA is a help or a hindrance? I mean the car is doing things for you automatically so do you normally drive with it off or on?

A-TLvic882

On you'rs question: Why are people so stuck on having a clutch?
You'rs answer: I was replacing clutches about every 10k miles.
It mean's you can't drive stick.
On you'rs : One of the most incredible race cars of all time was a total AT car.
Answer: way too much HP. thay don't wanted replace clutches about every 1k miles.
On you'rs question: I do have a VSA related question for you who have 6MTs, do you feel the VSA is a help or a hindrance? I mean the car is doing things for you automatically so do you normally drive with it off or on?
My answer: read https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102432 & when dry only OFF.

wavshrdr

I can guarantee I know how to drive a clutch. I have probably spent more years racing than you have been driving. If you truly understood how clutches work you wouldn't have made such an inaccurate statement. If you carefully read my statement you would have seen that the situation under which clutches were being replaced was in heavy city traffic.

Clutches typically only wear when the are under extreme loads where they slip OR when they are being engaged and disengaged. Your response shows you must be uninformed then. A clutch in a MT car I had that was driven mostly on highways easily went 90k miles. Difference is time you depress the clutch and then release the friction surface is worn. Think of it like a brake bad. City driving increases wear on the brakes as they are used more often. Same thing goes for clutches.

Each time the cluch re-engages the surface of the clutch wears and so does the flywheel. The heavier the car and the higher the hp/torque of the motor the faster it will wear. You have to slip the clutch each time to get the car moving. If you don't slip even fractionally you cause shock loads to the rest of the drivetrain. Each time you are depressing the clutch you are also put more wear on the throw-out bearing.

So if you can follow a logic flow of power transmission through the engine to drive wheels and then think about heavy city traffic where you move the car forward 10-20 feet and then stop, do this repeatedly and almost anyone can see how clutch wear is accelerated. Combine these factors with a car that has more of a "high revving" nature where you must slip the clutch more to get the car moving because of less low end torque and you have a recipe for accelerated clutch wear.

Once clutches are hooked up there is almost no wear unless you have so much HP that it overwhelms the clutch. I have had quite a few cars that did that so a stronger clutch was in order. They often have materials with higher coefficient's of friction where you are then faced with another tradeoff. This one typically entails higher wear of the face of the flywheel. Normally this won't become an issue for most people. Or the the clutches have few or no springs to cush the take up of the clutch. This then transmits greater shock loads to the rest of the drivetrain which can resulted in broken axles, u-joints, cv-joints, etc.

So I can guarantee I know how to drive a manual transmission. I can repair them, rebuild them, etc. Go live in a city like LA or San Fran which has much worse traffic than Chicago and see what kind of clutch wear you get. Drive in it every day. I am talking like the crap you get on the island. Fortunately over the last 10 years clutches have improved but many cars have marginal clutches in them from the factory. Sometimes even a few slight mods is enough to cause slippage.

Usually the only way to make a clutch fail quickly is through excessive slippage if it has decent materials. Put too much HP to it and you can do that or being and incredibly bad driver or get stuck in terrible traffic where you don't slip the clutch too much at starts but have to repeatedly take off.

With respect to your answer to my question about the car running an AT tranny. It wasn't because of too much HP. At the time they were only running a small block Chevy motor and technology at that time could easily handle a SB Chevy.

dcarlinf1

I completely understand what you are saying and you should get whatever it is that you prefer. I probably would've bought a 6MT TL too if it were not a FWD car. Defeats the purpose IMO. Plus, for me it's a family car. Meaning my wife also drives the TL. Although she knows how to drive a manual, she prefers not having to deal with shifting ALL OF THE TIME (just like me). So, 5AT was the obvious choice for us and I still get to use the SS and L when I feel like having some fun.

wavshrdr

This was pretty close to the logic I used. I love MT cars but I really prefer it combined with RWD or AWD to truly make the car more enjoyable. There is something about hi-po FWD cars that just doesn't do it for me. I am not saying that FWD can't be fast on a track or backroads. If you truly think about it from just the perspective of the physics involved FWD is counter productive to making a car faster on backroads or a racetrack. Basically for 2 reasons, weight transfer and weight distribution.

But since I wasn't buying a race car or even track car the TL with the 5AT gives me a lot of flexibility in a really sweet package. With the VSA it makes it safer and I worry less about it when the other half is driving it. Yesterday we got enough snow at lunch to show that it does work pretty well and the stock tires when combined with the VSA didn't do a bad job.

SouthernBoy

To wavshrdr;

You asked,

"I do have a VSA related question for you who have 6MTs, do you feel the VSA is a help or a hindrance? I mean the car is doing things for you automatically so do you normally drive with it off or on?"


For me, I drive with VSA on virtually all the time, primary as a safety feature. Since part of its design is to sense certain impending situations and those tend to occur suddenly and without notice, I prefer to leave the system activated.

As for a hinderance, I feel this is only the case where you want maximum acceleration. I noticed a few months ago that the car didn't seem to accelerate with the intense urgency as I would like when I was trying to keep someone from cutting my off on a two-into-one lane road. But the reason didn't dawn on me until what happened last weekend as outlined in the first post on this thread.


To dcarlinf1;

I hope you didn't take my response as being disrespectful or a flame. While I freely admit to a very strong bias for manuals, I also respect those who chose to go shiftless. I just like to get other people's take on these issues.


And finally, gentlemen (and ladies). You should be getting far more than 100K miles out of a clutch in a car which sees no deliberate abuse. And that also means in heavy traffic. I know a lady who had over 140,000 miles on her stock clutch in a 1992 Honda Accord LX (not known for especially strong clutches). And her commute was between Reston, VA and Laural, MD.. over the Cabin John bridge. Anyone who knows this area knows how much of a mess that can be.

SouthernBoy

BTW.. I taught her the finer points of opeating a manual transmission when she first bought the car.

wavshrdr

I don't want to get too far off topic on the clutch thing but it can be very hard to generalize about certain things. There are some factors that most people can agree about that will accelerate clutch wear. For example, the "taller" the first gear is generally the more the clutch will wear as you usually must slip it more until the gear can be fully enganged without killing the motor.

The higher usable power occurs generally the more you will have to slip the clutch to get the car moving. Heavy stop and go traffic requires more slippage. When I used to live in LA my daily was 15 miles of nothing but stop and go 20-50' of traffic. I made more take offs in one hour than I probably would have made in a normal cross country trip.

Clutch wear will also be accelerated when towing a trailer or if you have a very heavy vehicle. Add power enhancers and clutch wear can accelerate. I personally wouldn't say that anyone is going to get more than 100k out of a clutch even in traffic. If it was so easy to get that most manufacturers would guarantee their clutches but most consider them a "wearable" item like tires and wiper blades.

I would say with a good driver and normal driving conditions (i.e. not all city) that most people could reasonably expect about 70k. Track the car or make repeated drag style launches and you can see the service life drop tremendously.

Last MT car I had that I kept long enough to see how long it would last had 98k on the original clutch and then the car was totalled in an accident while a family member was driving it. That car (actually SUV) saw a very large portion of its life on the highway. Clutch life can be just as subjective as mileage. Typically the conditions that reduce mileage also reduce clutch life. So for someone to say that they should be getting 100k out of clutch or 30 mpg can be disigenuous as it is difficult to know their exact driving conditions and style. Even without abuse you can see mileage and service life plummet because of environmental factors. Where I live the mileage of our cars goes down every winter because of the fuel reformulations. I don't change my driving style (if anything I drive slower) but my mileage drops about 7-10%.

So far I have left the VSA on my 5AT. I too welcome the benefits it provides on slick roads and enexpected conditions. On my MB I defeat because in reality you never truly defeat the MB system you just raise the point at which it kicks in.

ONAGER

first i want to agree with wavshrdr as to the conditions that you drive seriously affect the service life of your clutch, as does the way you drive my last car (2000 contour svt) had a slightly uprated clutch from the factory (luk, which also produce honda clutches if im not mistaken). The contours clutch took all the abuse that i threw at it... multiple (i mean lots of the, lots) high rpm drag launches with stick tires, burnouts, slipping while trying to get the car unstuck from wet concrete (a funny story if you would like me to elaborate). i broke the differential in the contour at about 62,000 miles (guess those sticky launches caught up to me) transmission replaced by ford. while the were in there i asked them to replace the clutch as it already had 60,000+ miles on the clock when removed the clutch still had over 50% of its service life left !!! (estamite advised by fords tech, based off disk thickness and advised replace thickness) went ahead and replaced anyway (why not since the tranny was already out of the car, and i was looking to keep it for the next few years). unfortunatly i totaled the car a mere month after i got it back....

vsa is a good tool that does help keep the car on the road. if anyone has ever hit a patch of ice, water, or just went to hot into a corner without it knows what its like to lose the car (i have had all of the above happen to me) in all those cases vsa could have prevented the near heart attack i gave myself as other cars were coming at me. i personally leave mine on all the time unless i need max accel (drag racing or such)

on 6mt vs 5a, no matter how good your auto is, its still that a torque conveter auto (not that there is anything wrong with that) a torque converter that saps more power and produces more heat. and although you get to choose gears, its nowhere near as accurate as a manuls . and what i mean by that is that the trans automatically makes the 1-2 shift, wont let you downshift at times, might even upshift even if you dont want it to... also it just robs a little extra power. now audis "dsg", bmw "smg", are manuals converted for auto duty. basically a computer modulates the clutch. so you use the shifter it controls the clutch. manuals can be shifted faster the a standard auto (with a good driver). and finally you can modulate the clutch to do what you want (autos really only understand go) with a manual you can have a gentle start, you can burn out, get the engine in the power band sooner (through that all to hard to get, perfect launch, although an auto is more consistant)... basically there is more of a drivers conection through a manual, thats why i bought mine that way. having the brembos and a limited slip (another great part) didnt hurt in the slightest

wavshrdr

I have to disagree with one point about this. There are autos that have a lockup TC (torque converter). Normally this only occurs in top gear and when this is engaged you get a DIRECT mechanical connection just like you would with a manual tranny! Problem is for most autos this only occurs at cruising speed. This is why the slippage of the auto makes the manual feel less connected.

However there is a manufacturer that has a auto that locks up the TC in every gear. My AMG Benz has the AMG reworked 5AT from the factory that locks up the TC in EVERY GEAR! You let off the throttle and it doesn't upshift automatically. When you get hard on the brakes it starts dropping gears to the optimum gear for maximum acceleration out of the turn. As soon as you let off the throttle the car instantly starts to slow with no free-wheeling effect. It modulates your launch depending on how hard you hit the throttle. Combine this with incredibly smooth and fast upshifts and downshift and you have a tranny that can do virtually everything a true manual can do and more!

It shifts quite quickly with no or almost no shock loads to the drive train. There is no way a human can shift as fast as this tranny without causing more harm to the drivetrain than the computer does. This car consistently ran 12 second 1/4 miles out of the box, time and time again so consistently that the first time I took it to the track I one my class in bracket racing. I ran 10 runs and my times never varied by more than .05-.09 seconds.

Everyone who saw the car run couldn't believe a) that it was stock and b) that it was an auto as they heard the car run. There was almost no slippage between shifts and a little slippage is actually beneficial at times anyway.

You can very easily vary how the car launches. If you want a hard launch but with more wheelspin, brake torque the TC. If you want more revs at launch you could neutral drop it but I would never condone that. You can just ease it out of the hole if you want as well. Maybe you can't do everything exactly the way a MT would do it but you can do many things if you are creative.

If you have a turbo car ATs are awesome for acceleration. You often are much quicker with an auto than a manual as you can furn full boost all through the run because you don't have to let up on the gas when you shift. As soon as you do that with a MT you lose boost.

So in my MB the TC locks up so there is no loss due to the TC. This occurs in every gear. Nor will the car upshift in the middle of a turn on a road course even if I let up on the throttle as it senses the laterally g loading on the car. As I mentioned earlier get hard on the brakes and it starts dropping gears when you are in the tip mode. It is an incredibly well thought out car. At first I didn't want to buy it because I couldn't get it with a manual.

After driving it for a few miles, some track time and doing some backroad racing against friends of mine in modded Audi S4's and other cars it made a believer out of me. I found that I could hang the tail out at 140+ with total control. Very easy to control my line through a turn just by modulating the throttle.

Unfortunately there aren't more of these types of ATs out there. Most of you seem to think that a clutch pedal some how makes the car better. Any more I am not in agreement with that viewpoint. I've driven the SMG BMW's and I can tell you I'll never miss a clutch pedal again with trannies like that and the one in my MB. They can do things that no human can possibly do. ATs have come a long ways.

I still would have probably boughten the 6MT though if it was a RWD or AWD car. I still enjoy it but I also am not oblivious to the fun it can provide though I must say the 5AT TL has been more fun to drive on a daily basis than I thought it would vs. the 6MT. At this point I'd say the FTD (fun to drive) factor is about 95% as good for me but the livability factor on a day to day basis is about 150% by having the 5AT. Obviously to each their own. No matter how you slice it the TL is not a cutting edge sport sedan when it comes to handling dynamics. It's not a slouch either but it doesn't have the razor sharp reflexes of other cars. Because of that I am more than content to pair it with the 5AT. Obviously others of you don't feel the same way. I appreciate that but if it were the ultimate sport sedan I'd be buying the 6MT and keeping it as weekend car instead of a daily commuter. In the commuter role the 5AT is a better fit.

EnJ

I've been meaning to turn off the VSA for a while now and check out the difference but I kept forgeting until today. Turning the VSA off, it seemed almost as if I was driving a totally different car! I was stopped on a three way highway and when the light turned green I accelerated normally and w/in a few seconds I realized I was at 80 already and all the other cars were waaaaay behind me. Normally with it on, you feel a major lag in acceleration and a bit of a studder (at times during gear shift) when taking off, but with VSA disengaged the car really hauls ass. I found it's perfect to turn it off on the highway, when conditions permit, for quicker acceleration, then turn it back on when I hit local streets. The reason for this being it seems to definitely eat more gas with VSA off (I assume because you're unrestricted now), so engaging it on local streets is best when you're only going maybe 30-40MPH.
Anyway, thanks for the advice. I've been really happy with the car and the only major flaw, up to this point, was my slow acceleration. Points to you Southernboy.

wavshrdr

People forget why the VSA is so intrusive, the TL is a FWD car. The VSA should act when it detects wheelspin. Since the TL is FWD basic laws of physics work against the car. Add decent HP to the equation and it makes it worse. The harder you accelerate the more the weight transfer to the rear and OFF the drive wheels. That is one of the main reasons I don't like FWD for hi-perf cars.

Same thing goes for when you are going up steep hills. I remember years ago I used to go skiing in the mountains of Vermont and I had a VW Rabbit and a 240/280z Datsun (240 chassis with 280FI 5spd drivetrain). I usually took my Datsun to the slopes and many a time I passed FWD cars who couldn't make it up the hills I could even though they thought FWD would help them. Actually any time you can put more weight on the drive wheels in snow you will generally get improved traction. Unfortunately for them the steep hills combined with FWD had weight transfered to their rear wheels. Same thing applied to me but helped my drive wheels.

So the harder you accelerate (especially at low speeds) the more you are going to need the VSA and the more it is going to try and "help". Sometimes a little wheelspin is helpful for good acceleration if your car is "cammy" as you don't want it to bog and all out of the powerband. You can test the VSA for yourself. Launch the car hard on a level surface. Then try it uphill and you will see you get much more wheelspin. Then try the car while pointing downhill. Here your FWD car will hook up the best as more weight will be on the drive wheels. Opposite of this for RWD cars, they hook up best going uphill.

One of the best things to think about with respect to traction is it is like a cup filled to the very brim. You can add more and more water until the water actually is above the cup's rim. You can keep doing this until ultimately the water does spill out. At the point just before this happened you had the maximum amount you could hold and think of this as max traction. However if you notice that once the water spills over it doesn't just go back down to that point just before it spilled over, it goes down a LOT.

This is sort of how tires hook up. Once they finally break loose and slid or spin you must go well down before the point of maximum traction before they finally stop spinning/sliding and grip again. Just something to keep in mind as it is easier to try and keep traction than to try and regain it once it has been lost.

lakeman

wavshrdr

Etched in my brian, is the memory of a pack of cars (CAN AM I think) turning the first lap at Road Atlanta, where Hall's 2J "blew" by the then "king of the hill" Maclarens (sp?) on the OUTSIDE of the S's at Road Atlanta. That was an awesome car. Unfortunatly, the skirt or fan broke and it then couldn't compete, but those first few laps were something. You are right about his innovations.

Lakeman

wavshrdr

Lakeman- yes CanAm cars. Anyone else remember the GM car that actually had that name? Jim Hall was an amazing creative mind. It really understood aerodynamics with respect to cars. If anyone is interested here is a brief link to a quick overview of some of Jim's accomplishments showing his innovative cars.

http://www.sandcastlevi.com/racing/chaprral.htm

It is not the ultimate site but just wanted to show a quick read. He was willing to think outside the box for sure.

SouthernBoy

To wavshrdr;

You know I respect your ideas and opinions. But I have to say that I know I can get well over 100,000 miles out of a clutch. My '88 Mustang LX 302 (modded) had 77,000 miles on it when I sold it and there was absolutely no sign of any wear in the clutch assembly. In fact, the buyer asked me how recently I had replaced the clutch.. he thought it was new. I told him it wouldn't make much sense to replace a clutch after only 77,000 miles since that's not much mileage for a clutch. And my '66 SS 396/360HP L34 Chevelle had 83,000 miles on it when I sold it and I raced that car for nearly two years. The clutch was tight and true and would break traction in all four gears at sell time.

But of course, these were American cars which have had a history of having far better clutches and transmissions than those of foreign make (the foreign boys are catching up because they are using stronger engines). If you read my posts about how to properly operate a manual transmission, you'll see how I do this. I take great care in my use of my clutch and tranny because I want them to last and I expect they will for the life of the time I own the car.

You are correct in your points about extradinary situations which will affect clutch life, such as towing, racing, and unusual street conditions (like living in San Francisco). Of course, the most injurious component to the life of a clutch assembly is the operator because, well frankly, most people simply don't have a clue how to properly operate a manual transmission.


To ONAGER;

I owned a 2000 SVT Contour (production #379 out of 2150 for the year). The engine was only 152 cubic inches (2.5 liters), but produced 200 HP and 169 lb/ft of torque. That's not much torque but Ford still saw fit to use a two-pound lighter flywheel and a clutch with 1400 pounds of clamping pressure. That sucker would last a LONG time.

wavshrdr

SouthernBoy- I am not saying that you can't get good mileage out of clutch. I have numerous vehicles where I did get good service life. American cars typically have had better clutches than foreign cars and ofter our trannies were beefier because generally our motors had higher torque output than foreign motor due to their generally larger displacement. Many countries in Europe taxed cars based on motor displacement. That is why we had GTO and GTU cars.

As a result Euro motors tended to be higher reving than us motors because to get more HP (and go faster) they had to spin higher. I generally get excellent life out of clutches but I've lived places where it was next to impossible to get good clutch wear. For example I lived on a small island for a while. I don't think my car ever saw 5th gear for more than about 1 minute.

My point is that you don't have to abuse a clutch to have a short service life for it. I have also did clutches on FWD cars and they are a bigger PITA than RWD cars are by far. I could do the clutch on my 240Z in about 90 minutes. Those days are gone for the most part.

SouthernBoy

Yeah, got that right. A front driver is the last setup I'd want to have to do clutch work on (sorry, not suppose to end a sentence with a preposition). That's another reason to take it easy on these babies and use one's head when getting into it.

My instinct with this car is that it has a good clutch that should give excellent service life. Still, not something I'd want to be power shifting.. I'd be afraid I'd tear up CV joints, half shafts, final drives, and clutches and trannies.