iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I guess you misunderstood my post. The OP never claimed that he could smoke any vette. Period.

About the door thing, it was an analogy, ie we all know Vettes are faster than TLs, just like we all know the TL has 4 doors, while the Vette has 2. In other words, these are just facts and we, including me, you, and the OP know already. Not trying to say 2 door cars are always faster than 4 door cars. A stock civic type R 4 door can beat stock NSX, GTR, RX7 on a track, even though civic is a 4 door.

harddrivin1le

https://acurazine.com/forums/showpos...23&postcount=1

". a 95 Vette came on the scene... I can only assume he was behind the SS the whole time and i never noticed, or he saw us from a distance and gave chase... either way the 07 TL-S was in the mood for some high speed travel... as the vette pulled along side me he throttled it to pull ahead then eased off to drop along side of me... he did this 2 times before i decided to downshift into 4th... the second he pulled along side of me i dopped the gear... all the way to 140 MPH he stayed along side me, niether pulling ahead nor dropping back... as i put it into 6th i noticed i had gained a full car length and the TL-S was still asking for more.."

Your statement about a Civic R "beating an NSX on a track" is truly laughable.

harddrivin1le

NSX ROAD TEST. (Let me now when a Civic R matches those numbers and I will buy THREE of them.)


http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Media/ma...s/cd0799-c.jpg

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

". a 95 Vette came on the scene... I can only assume he was behind the SS the whole time and i never noticed, or he saw us from a distance and gave chase... either way the 07 TL-S was in the mood for some high speed travel... as the vette pulled along side me he throttled it to pull ahead then eased off to drop along side of me... he did this 2 times before i decided to downshift into 4th... the second he pulled along side of me i dopped the gear... all the way to 140 MPH he stayed along side me, niether pulling ahead nor dropping back... as i put it into 6th i noticed i had gained a full car length and the TL-S was still asking for more.."

ehh...so...what's the point here? what about this? why did you quote this? The OP already said may be the vette wasn't trying, may be the vette was in bad condition, he said all that already....

Alright man, buy all three of them can give one to me, here is the proof you need of a civic type r beating those 3 cars i mentioned plus more:

http://www.xanga.com/tl_type_s

It's at the bottom of the page, under Saturday, June 23, 2007 post. The guy in that picture is the world famous professional driver/drifter, Keiichi Tsuchiya (if you don't know him, do a search in google, he is highly respected for his driving skills). If you are in doubt, please buy the July 2007 version of Best Motoring in case you think I photoshoped that picture. Also, the track was Suzuka (F1 races take place there too). And of course, I did not claim, and will not claim that the civic type R will beat those cars on every single track, but I think I proved my point already. Also, NSX-R is my dream car, in case you are wondering.

harddrivin1le

Do you honestly believe that the Civic Type R shown in that link is even REMOTELY stock???

A STOCK Civic Type R is a high 14 second car that tops out at around 140 MPH, is nose heavy and can't even REMOTELY compete with a stock NSX.

The two cars are in a completely different league performance-wise.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Well...depends on what you mean by stock. Compared to a normal civic, it ain't stock, but Type R wise, it's a stock Type R. There's no reasons for the to make a specially prepared car for that test. These guys are all rich, multi billionaires, they don't need to receive money from auto makers to produce these videos, they make these videos for fun, as their hobby...I mean I can also say the other cars, ie, the GTR, Lancer Evo, NSX, RX7 are not stock too. One thing to note, Type Rs are track cars, while a typical NSX is not, that is why the Civic Type R can outperform those cars. If you are comparing a NSX-R to a Civic Type R, of course, the NSX-R would win. But I am only talking about the NSX, not type R version of it.

harddrivin1le

STOCK means the way it rolled out of the Honda factory.

And if you bothered to read the link you posted you'd see that the NSX was 1.815 seconds per lap faster than the (modified) Civic Type R.

http://www.xanga.com/tl_type_s

NSX: 106.132 seconds

Civic Type R: 107.947 seconds

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Actually, Top Gear just tested the new JDM civic type R against the British Civic Type R, the JDM civic can do 0-60 in less than 6 seconds, and tops out at 160mph. By the way, Honda has proved many many times that their FWD Type R cars are no joke, from the DC2-R, to this new FD2 Civic Type R. Nose heavy? Honda has overcome that problem more than 10 years ago with the DC2 Type R.

Anyways, new FD2 civic Type R can do the 1/4mile in around 14.5-14.6s. Huge difference in terms of straightline performance against a NSX, but on a track, they are closer than you think.

harddrivin1le

The Civic was 1.815 seconds per lap SLOWER than the NSX, based on the "best times" comparison:

http://www.xanga.com/tl_type_s

NSX: 106.132 seconds

Civic Type R: 107.947 seconds

How many front wheel drive cars do you see at Indy, in F1, in the Champ car series, in NASCAR, in top fuel drag racing, etc?

Answer: NONE

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I know, but if you look closer those times are in Tsukuba, not Suzuka, that's where the Civic Type R is a tad faster. Again, it's at the bottom of the page, look carefully. ANd that's why in my earlier post, I said the civic type R is NOT faster on every track.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

1st part of your post, I answered already in the above post.

And whoa whoa whoa, why are you all of a sudden talking about Indy, F1, and Cham p cars? I never said FWD is the king of motorsports. In fact, I never said FWD is my personal preference now did I? Remember, my dream car is the NSX-R, which is a MR machine.

harddrivin1le

In the real world and in bone stock factory trim, a Civic Type R isn't faster than an NSX on ANY track.

The link you posted is essentially meaningless because it contains NO INFORMATION about the modifications/state of tune of the cars in question.

Those variables would have to be known and documented in order for the results to become meaningful.

In the real world and bone stock vs. bone stock, a Civic Type R is going to have it's hand full with a Honda S2000.

My money would be on the S2000, which itself is no match for an NSX.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

That's why I said, if you are in doubt, get the video and watch it yourself. Full, detailed explanation of the Civic Type R and the race conditions, etc. By the way, do you know which Civic Type R we are talking about here? S2000 is out of date, it can barely keep up with the now gone DC5 Type R.

harddrivin1le

The S2000 weighs about the same as a Civic Type R, makes more power and is MUCH better balanced.

This is NOT an NSX killer:

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=120576

A bone stock Mitsubishi Evo would eat that Civic alive...

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

By the way, I don't know how being tested by a real professional, world famous/recognized driver on a world famous/recognized track is not "real world." I hope you don't mean that testing by an average Joe is accurate.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

On paper, you are correct. S2000 has 25 more ps (225ps vs 250ps), 50/50 vs something like 60/40 weight disturbution. But that shows how much you know about the Type R cars of Honda. So you drive a TL Type S? I assume it's the 6MT model. To tell you the truth, Keiichi Tsuchiya also tested that car, and posted faster lap times than the G35 S 6MT and IS350 6AT (too bad only AT is offered) on Willowsprings. DO a search in this forum and you can find a few threads on this topic. Again, yes you are right, on paper, FWD is slower than RWD. But that is not always true, as proven many times already.

harddrivin1le

BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW THE STATES OF TUNE/MODS OF THE VARIOUS CARS.

The Civic Type R (as it leaves the factory) is a 222 HP, 3000 pound, front wheel drive econobox with some decent hardware.

That's a far cry from an NSX killer.

It's not even competitive with a 3 year old Mistu Evo.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Evo is as fast as a NSX. I know that (I am a Japanese car fan). And for sure, Evo will smoke the civic in a straightline, but my point is, on some tracks, the civic is faster. That's all. As I said earlier, the civic type R is not the fastest on every single track.

harddrivin1le

STOCK vs. STOCK, the Civic is no match for an EVO on ANY track.

http://www.caranddriver.com/longroad...tion-viii.html

AWD alone is a huge advantage over the Civic's (economy car based) FWD. Brakes and suspension are comparable and the Evo is making a lot more power (and torque).

By the way: MOST "tracks" consist primarily of straights, though the EVO would be all over the Civic in any corner.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

It's actually 1270kg, or 2794lbs (if you include the driver and gas, than yea, 3000lbs).

You are a mechanical engineer, so I understand why to you, this all sounds very silly, non-sense, unrealistic. I, too, is studying to become a mechanical engineer (3rd year). When the first Integra Type R came out (DC2), it also shock the world and a lot of people for its amazing handling. So, with this new FD2 Civic Type R, Honda is just improving, it's not like this is the first time they have made a fast FWD car. By the way, the Civic has 159lb/ft of torque@6100rpm, which is comparable to the 162lb/ft@6500rpm of the S2000 2.2L. You also have to understand that the chassis of the civic is very rigid, the springs, damper are a lot harder, the brakes are huge and are from Brembo, it has Torsen LSD, lower ride height, etc. In fact, the Civic Type R is not even designed with comfort in mind, that's why its handling is so good, but its ride comfort is horrible.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I just proved to you that the Civic at least can beat an Evo on Suzuka, other tracks? I don't know, and I never claimed the civic can beat the Evo on any track. Again, like I've said, get the video, watch it, and you will see what I mean.

harddrivin1le

It's easy for you to make big claims about the car because it's not sold in this country and direct comparisons are nearly impossible to make.

Several years ago CAR AND DRIVER tested several very expensive, highly modfied Japanese "tuner cars." They concluded by noting that not one of them could hold a candle to a bone stock Z06 Corvette.

I know all about springs, damper and brakes.

What YOU have to understand is that in the end, it's still a nose heavy, front drive econobox with a torqueless engine, 222 very high revving horses and 3,000 pounds of weight.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

The car is not being sold in the States (rumor has that Honda might bring it over here in 2010), but the video is readily available to you. A video worths a thousand pictures and million of words. Besides, if I were to choose, I'd accept the result of a professional race car driver rather than the result from a test driver from motortrend, car and driver, etc. By the way, Z06 vette (assuming you are talking about the C5, cause I know the C6 is fast) is as fast as the NSX-R on Nurburgring, both have achieved 7:56.

You understand springs, dampers, brakes and all those stuff, then why is it so hard to accept the Civic Type R is actually that fast? Car dynamics is more than just drivetrain layout /power/weight, NOT saying that these are not important, but other factors count too, and I am sure you know that.

harddrivin1le

Whatever.

I'm not going to argue with you anymore.

You clearly have to believe that a 222 HP, 2,900 pound car with front wheel drive and a 60/40 weight distribution is somehow capable of breaking the laws of physics.

DOZENS of car companies have been offering special models with stiff springs and dampers, larger brakes, etc. for DECADES. (My last car was a 1LE LS1 Camaro, so I have first hand experience in the matter).

Those things help, but they aren't going to turn a car like that Civic into an NSX killer.

On a VERY tight course (e.g. autocross), the two would be pretty close. On an open road course the NSX is simply going to walk away.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

No, the Civic is not a NSX killer, it barely beats the NSX on Suzuka by like 0.2 second. Again, the point is that no, an FWD econobox with 222hp, 2800lbs is not as slow as one might think.

harddrivin1le

How many AFTERMARKET MODIFICATIONS were performed on the Civic in order for it to beat the (undoubtedly bone stock and probably well worn) NSX?

harddrivin1le

I am going to wrap this up. You seem like a decent enough guy and I don't think you're intentionally lying.

My "issue" with this is that you're basing your conclusion on one "test' that is propaganda-like in nature (I watched the full video on YOU TUBE) and was conducted half way around a world by people who don't speak our language and without all of the variables being stated or understood:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKC9s...elated&search=

I think you would see very different results if an American car magazine (e.g. CAR AND DRIVER) were to pit a known stock Civic Type R against known stock (and factory fresh) examples of the other cars in the video.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Ahh, just had my dinner, anyways, the civic Type R is stock (unless you count the Type R treatment as mod). The NSX is the Type S Zero model that weighs 1270kg, with stiffened suspension, and stripped out interior, and no, it's not well worn since the car was tested 10 years ago. They just used the time obtained b y the same driver. You can say that may be the driver improved his skills in those years, but that's another story.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

It's been a good experience having an argument with you, too. Best Motoring offers English versions of their videos, I don't know where you can get them in the States (I live in Canada), perhaps go to their official website and ask for a copy. I wouldn't say they are propanganda-like those, since they are all professional drivers who are very rich and don't need advertisement to generate profit. Also, notice their racing suits, they are race for different teams/manufacturers (Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Honda, etc), so in my opinion, they wouldn't want their "brands" to look bad.

Yes, I am sure I will see different results in an American car magazine, but I believe that the Japanese know their own cars better, especially with the JDM models (Japanese cars sold here are inferior to the ones in Japan). Besides, I don't think car and driver has that many professional race car drivers, if any.

mishar

Guys, am I missing something or those cars were driven there at separate occasions over long period of time?

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

yea, in a period of 10 years I'd imagine, since NSX S Zero came out 10 years ago. But still the same track and same driver.

mishar

Young college, I bet you know that track is not same over weekend, not to say over 10 years. They must have new, better pavement and all new curbs, at least. Some rubber from recent race would make quite a difference too. Than, what about tires and fuel? All that and probably more, is better today than it was 10 years ago. That is quite an advantage to any newer car in that “race”. Wouldn’t be surprised if Prius makes some remarkable result in a few years. OK, may be Prius R.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

haha yea, that's true, but the changes at Suzuka are not as significant as the changes in Fuji Speedway. And if anything, I'd imagine the newer track actually increased laptime. The reason I am saying that is because the R34 GTR, which was tested only a few years ago (instead of 10) got 2:39, that's 4 seconds behind the Civic. OF course, like you've said, other factors count too, but still, isn't it amazing what a little Civic can do?

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=120576

Here's an article about the Civic Type R by an American online magazine. As we can see, Suzuka is owned by Honda, and the car has been tuned there for many hours. With that in mind, is that still hard to believe the Civic has the potential to beat the aforementioned cars on Suzuka?

mishar

F1 is imposing chicanes to make track safer, but I do not recall any at Suzuka. On the other hand curbs are wider and pavement better. I am almost positive that it is faster than 10 years ago.

Little Civic actually is not that little anymore. If it is not so heavy it would be a real killer. With RWD even more than that. But they do not make them like that anymore. Except in England. 600 kg car, 2 l 250 hp engine, RWD, LSD, manual of course. No aircon, no subwoofer, no cup holders.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

There's a chicane, right at the last part of the track, it's a very tight one too.

Yup, civic has grown up in size. They have stripped out Civic Type R in Europe too, they are $15000 (after the conversion), no LSD, no air con, no airbag, and other stuff too. But then after you add in stuff like rollcage, then the price would go up.

harddrivin1le

http://www.xanga.com/tl_type_s

The "fast" cars at Suzuka in his link (above) ran in the 2:35 to 2:39 range and the (propaganda style) footage suggests that's really moving. That's clearly a Honda propaganda/marketing film involving cars (in undocumented states of tune) that were cherry picked specifically for that event.

The language barrier further serves to cloak the facts.

Take a look at these lap times, which are much, much faster. (I'm posting the slowest times below):

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho....php?p=2039482

380hp Super Taikyu ST1 Porsche 911 GT3 _ 2:11.385

300hp Super Taikyu ST2 Mitsubishi Evo IX _ 2:14.159

270hp Super Taikyu ST3 Mazda RX-7 _ 2:16.840

fiveoh-tl

Sounds like a fun night.

Not true, the mid-late '80s vettes couldn't get out of their own way without a decent amount of mods.

Cause win or lose, in the end, they're still retarded?

harddrivin1le

"Late 80s 'Vettes" weighed ~ 3,380 pounds, produced 240 - 250 HP and were capable of running lower mid 14 second quarter miles at 98+ MPH.

In other words, they were about as quick as a 2007 Acura TL Type S 6 speed.

fiveoh-tl

I don't know what R&T or C&D said they ran @ the time.....all I know is that I never saw a stock one run low-mid 14s, sorry (many just barely broke into the 14s). So based on what I've seen (not read) the new TLS' (even autos) should be able to take them.