yangkimchi

Hi Guys,

I've seen a lot of threads about the TL vs G35, BMWs, etc, but they tend to focus on brand new models of both. I'm currently in the market for either a used BMW 5-Series or a used TL. It looks like 2004 and 2005 TLs run about 26-28K for something with ~30-40K miles. A 2002-2003 530i seems to cost roughly the same and a 525i a few thousand less.

I have two questions:

1) Is my price on the TL roughly correct?

2) I know the 3rd Gen TL hasn't been around long, but are there any well known "aha" problem spots other than the driveline vibration issue? I have to get an automatic (car is for financee), so have there been any issues so far? I've heard the previous gen had some problems.

I've also driven a TL, 525 and 530 side by side and actually favor the 5-series over the TL, but Financee likes the TL more.

The 5-series handled a WHOLE lot better than the TL, regardless of engine size. The steering on the 5-series had a weight and connected-ness to the road that the TL couldn't match. Turn-in was crisper and laying down power through a turn inspired confidence in the 5-series, vs trepidation in the TL. The 5 series feels and handles like a smaller car that it really is, while the TL felt big, more like an m35.

Power-wise, the TL is clearly more powerful, but I thought even the 5 series had more than adequate power. I dont really care about 0-60 or "taking" other cars.

The auto transmission on the 5-series was inferior to the TL. I've never driven an Auto Bimmer before, but it was hunting through the gears and never seemed to be able to settle on the right one for me. TL's shift logic was much better. Also, I know I'd be lucky to get 80K out of the BMW auto tranny.

Interior wise, the TL wins hands down. I love the blue tooth and the nav and just the whole look. Shame on BMW for getting left in the dust here. While the interiors of the E30s were class-leading, now it can only be chariably described as spartan.

Anyway, net-net, financee (who doesn't know/care anything about cars) liked the TL better because it felt more "luxurious" and "insulated me from the road". The second reason was precisely why I liked the 5-series better.

AcuraVic

I own a 02 530I and a 04/TL. The only advice I can give you if you get a BMW, get a certified model with a warranty. My 530 has 55,000 miles. The torque converter, power steering setup (leaking), and front axle have been replaced. The axle cost was $4500. The torque converter was $3600. I have a 100,000 mile warranty so it was all covered. I have 47,000 miles on the TL and no problems.
The BMW does ride smoother and has that 'status' factor the TL doesn't. The TL gets 'hey, what car is that'. The BMW gets 19 miles a gallon combined city/highway. The TL gets 26 combined. Paint on the TL is great, on the BMW its outstanding. The leather in the BMW still smells 'like new'. If you get a BMW, get one with the 'cold weather package' which is heated seats, headlight washers, heated outside mirrors. Also make sure you get one with HID lights. If you get a BMW built after October 2002 the radio should be XM/Sirius compatable.
IF you deside on a TL get one with Navigation, which is really the only option. Everything else comes standard on the TL, heated seats, heated mirrors, XM radio, Blue Tooth phone connectivety, voice commands for the phone and Navigation.

Your pricing is dead on. Good luck and good hunting.

whatwasthat

wow, nicely put together.

just wanted to stree that fact that dont get a BMW w/o HID... it isn't a BMW w/o it. a friend's mom of mine bought the '05 525 w/o HID... just doens't feel like a BMW w/o it.. upon seeing it, i was just .. "eh.., its a good car."

Boardman

FWIW, the ex wifie had a 530i that I drove ocassionally. Went through 4 HVAC fans. one alternator, and a torque converter in the first six months. I actually had to fight with BMW to conver the torque converter on a car that was 6 months old with 11,000 miles on it. I was NOT impressed. Don't know how the car's been in the recent past cause the car went with the ex-wife - killed two birds with one stone .

All I can say is YMMV - alot depends on the car itself and the dealer(s) you visit. That said, I just bought a X3 for the G/F as she found the MDX "too big and bulky" . The X3 seems well built but the dealer attitude is still there - time will tell.

FightingTL

Just keep in mind that you can do a simple A Spec package to the TL and it becomes much more worthy of handling.

(Not a BMW of course)

Just an FYI.

yangkimchi

Thanks for that AcuraVic.

So I know all about the "issues" with E39s, including auto transmission/computer display/ water pump/ radiator, etc. I was wondering if there were any similar problem spots emerging on the 3rd Gen TLs?

Frankly, I'm disappointed in the build quality of the new BMWs. I had an '85 E30 318i that went up to 180K that I just sold and it was/is bulletproof. It was also arguably more fun to drive than TL and any current BMW. You could really throw this thing into corners. But I also had an E36 325 that I sold at 90K because I couldn't deal with the maintenance issues and the CPO warranty was about to run out.

[rant]
I'm also a bit disconcerted to hear about some of the issues on some of the last gen/current gen TLs. I've had a '91 accord and currently have '91 NSX. Talk about build quality and durability...I generally like to buy late model used and keep the car until 150K+ miles. I'm not confident either car would last that long without major problems... [/rant]

datmrman

Since you are looking into used cars, I would also look at the long term maintenance costs. How long will the financee keep the car and is extendend warranty available for that term? BMW parts are more $$ than TL parts.

kennyc

I hope you like working on cars and have friends working in a BMW dealership...

Coming from someone used to own a used German car. Make sure you know what your getting into.

Even BMW fans will agree that BMW is not as reliable as Acura/Lexus. It really depends what you're looking for.

The reason I got rid of my Audi is I got tired of working on her every weekend. Granted she was a blast to drive. But the time and money I spent on her got to be more than I wanted to - parts and labor are both expensive. On top of that germans DO require more maintenance than their japanese counterparts. For example, a timing belt job on my A4 requires taking the lights, radiator, bumper - basically everything in front of the engine, off and it cost $1200 to $1700 at a dealership and around $800-$900 at an indy shop.

German cars are extremely nice if you buy new, get rid of it after the warranty expires. Buying a used german might not be as a good idea as you think.

chiawei

I have more problem with Honda/Acura than I did with BMW.

My 530i- which was super charged, ran fine until i sold it with 35K miles on it. The issues i had was recall on the aux fan, final stage resistor which causes interior fan to blow at max or none at all, and navi crashing from time to time.

03 M3- No issues at all other than a broken moonroof panel clip, and minor rattle from the passenger seat.

03 M5- has o-ring issue. But other than that, no problem.

06 M5- other than suspension was slightly damaged during shipping and vanos recall, no issues.

My honda/Acura on the other hand has many more problems.

92 Accord- SRS did not deploy in frontal accident. Lousy brakes that overheats easily and warp easily.

94 accord- failed ABS, numerous rattle and loose trim pieces by the time 50k miles hit, burned A/C compressor (twice, and actually burned my foot once), warped brakes, failed radio antennae.

98 accord- again warped brakes.

00 TL- broken center console, numerous rattle all over the car, transmission issues, went through 3 sets of brake prior to 30k miles, touchscreen would freeze from time to time.

I for one will say that honda/acura quality is not as good as people make it out to be. Mechanically, BMW is much more sound than Acura/Honda. Assembly is also better in a BMW. BMW does have quiet a bit of minor but annoying electrical issues. However, mechanically i will trust BMW quality over honda/acura.

IMHO, Acura/honda quality is not better than BMW, not to mention toyota/lexus. I have owned quiet a bit of toyota/lexus in the past and current. They are bullet proof if you take care of them.

datmrman

chiawei, I don't think your comparison is fair. I am assuming your comparison is based on newer vehicles (you got the vehicles new or like new), whereas yangkimchi is asking about used ones thats around have 30K miles on it. You sold your 530i at 35K. yangkimchi is planning to buy one now around that mileage. I think a fairer comparison would service/parts bills to fix your BMW vs Honda/Acura.

graphicguy

I can only reiterate what others have said about BMWs. While, I didn't have a 5 Series, I had two 3 Series (both bought new) prior to my '05 TL. From the very beginning, as soon as I drive them out of the dealership, the BMWs were riddled with issues. While the warranty covered all of them, it was a hassle taking them back to the BMW dealer. I knew I wanted no part of those issues after the warranty was up.

My TL, although only 6 months old, hasn't had one issue, no squeaks, no groans, no rattles, nothing that hasn't performed the way it was supposed to. I'm scheduled to take it in for it's first oil change tomorrow (although the "memory minder" says I've got 20% oil like left). Dealer says they'll cover oil changes for no charge as long as I own the car.

Can't beat that.

chiawei

I think it is more than fair. All my honda/acura all had problems even prior to warranty being expired. I rarely kept my car past warranty period. But i really believe that even at 30k on the BMW, the mechanical will probably be more sound than honda/acura.

I sold my 530i with 35k on it and mechanically that car was in much better shape than the TL which my wife totalled. My 530i was abused hard being S/C and tracked. The TL was my wife's car and really is driven pretty civilized.

With BMW, if yangkimchi can find a good mileage CPO car there is really nothing to worry about as the warranty extends to 7 year 100k miles.

All i am saying is that I really don't agree that Honda/Acura reliability is better than BMW. I think at best its a wash between the two as BMW is better in assembly and mechanical components, and honda/acura has better electronics.

mclarenf3387

Your front axle on a RWD car was replaced??

yangkimchi

Chiawei,

Wow, seems like you had a lot of brake issues with your hondas. To me, warped brakes and pads dont really point to mechanical reliability of a car, and more to do with driving style and application. I would 100% agree with you if you said that on a track, there is no way stock Honda could match stock BMW for performance or durability of things like rotors and pads. They just weren't designed to.

kennyc

Per JD Power, BMW has pretty high initial quality. Higher than Acura.


However, per consumer report's reliability study over 5 years it shows a different picture.



I love the E39 - I think it's much better looking than the E60 (and no i-drive crap). However, if you ever decide to get the E39 make sure you get it with CPO. Those things are not cheap to fix.

Acuraluvr

iTrader: (2)

i hav driven (actually rode in bimmer) in both cars (drove tl) and i have to say that the bimmer blows the TL away in handling and on the rear drive. To me it feels just how a car should handle. However, i would have to pick the tl for it's interior, little problems (for us) extra traction in snow and that puncy high revving V6 which i love

F23A4

I dont pay much attention to the IQS but that 5 year checkup speaks volumes.

graphicguy

I don't think the initial quality is where BMW falls down, although the first 3 series I had, BMW bought back. That wasn't a pleasant experience, either. Problems ranged from trim pieces falling off to transmission problems (leaving me stranded.....twice).

In fairness, when the BMWs were "right", they were a joy to drive.

If we're comparing the lack of issues between BMWs and TLs, my experiences have been "night and day" in their differences, though. In short, the BMWs were problematic. TL has had no such issues.

While it's true that all my BMW issues were handled under warranty. And, the dealership where I bought both of them was more than accomodating (Sometimes, I felt I spent more time in their loaner cars than I did in my car), it was a big hassle. Taking time out of my day, to drop the BMW off at the dealership. Then, waiting around for the service writer to actually "check" my car in. Sometimes they'd finish the car by the end of the day. Sometimes it would take a week or so to diagnose and fix some of the more serious problems.

The TL, on the other hand, may not handle as well as my BMWs, I'm certainly not wanting for features. The TL is quick. Handles nicely....is comfy and loaded with lusury features. It's probably got the best build quality of any car I've ever owned. And, I've not had one trip to the dealer......for anything, other than an oil change (and the TL dealer has me in and out in 1/2 hour).

An oil change at the BMW dealer could take as much as 2 hours (albeit, it was free).

Will I ever own another BMW? Don't know. Certainly won't be my next car.....unless, there's a dramatic turnaround in BMW reliability. I would like to get one that's problem free as they do offer one of the best combos of drvie/ride/performance (at a steep price).

All that said, just about every German make out there is experiencing reliability problems these days when compared to their competition. Just look at where Mercedes is these days.....to say nothing of Audi's foibles.

AcuraVic

Yep. The front axle boots were cracked and BMW does not replace the boot, they replace the whole axle (thats what the service guy said). BMW initially said the part and work wasn't covered, claiming 'wear and tear item'. I calmly explained that NOTHING like an axle should be replaced on a $42,000 car, two years old, with 55K miles on the odometer. The service guy made some phone calls and returned to say the whole job was covered.
On a side note, it makes me smile everytime I take the BMW to the dealer for maintenance/repairs. You see, my TL is usually waiting for me in their parking lot, and the BMW sales/service/secretary staff do a poor job of ignoring her sitting there clean, pretty, and problem free. I make sure there is eye contact on my way out of the showroom

Tennisjon2002

I think the issue with BMW and repair isn't so much they have bad reliability it is just how much more expensive parts are for them

kennyc

uh... you did see the graphs I posted, right?

SweetJazz

I'm not sure what you mean. I think it has to be poor reliability. Most people dump these cars when the warranty runs out for the reason you just stated, EXPENSIVE. However, price should not be an issue if the car is under warranty. It's just a pain in the butt to have to bring the car in all the time. I work one block away from a BMW dealer and I will not purchase one due to the lower than average reliability of these cars.

FightingTL

The 5 year graph is what it's all about. That is where BMW gets the stigma of shit reliability.


Intial quality reports were always a little worthless to me simply because in my subjective opinion, most people that buy a new car like a BMW/Acura/Mercedes/Infiniti/Lexus/Audi, do it by choice. They bought the car because they wanted it, that brings a strong level of bias.

Tennisjon2002

I am not saying they have great reliability, I am just saying they cost an insane amount to fix compared to other brands (Honda).

yangkimchi

well, We've decided to go with the TL. Based on all my research, here is what I've found so far on likely reliability issues:

Acura TL:
- Driveline Vibration on 2004s
- Creaks and rattles
- Fading on interior trim pieces
- Some Nav system issues

BMW E39:
- Replace radiator and waterpump every 60K miles
- Count on replacing POS auto transmission every 80-100K
- Replace front control arms/thrust arms and bushings ~80K miles (I think this was AcuraVic's problem)
- Pixels fading on computer display
- Random electrical/HVAC issues
- Possible steering rack issues >100K miles

I still love the Bimmer more, but given the costs of repair at higher mileage and the fact that its for my fiancee rather than for me, its slam dunk TL. I think if it was my own car, I would still go with the BMW, and it would be a manual, so I wouldn't have to worry about the auto tranny failing.

kennyc

Good choice! Of couse.. we're kinda biased here.

yangkimchi

Funny, right after I decided on the TL, I "discovered" the problem and fixes part of the forum....

Looks like the TL also has a POS auto tranny

MR1

Ha, wondered how you missed that. Honda has been very good about replacing them IMHO. Except for the transmission, Honda products generally will not leave you stranded. Good thing you agreed with her otherwise every problem really would be your fault. I think you will be very happy to have her in a car that just keeps on going. Over the years my wife was the Honda fan, I drove VW and Audi. My cars drove better and hers always ran better. Now we both drive Acura.