surferdude

You forgot to add...

"Your comander must march out here, stick his head between his legs and kiss his own arse." -

JERU

To sum up the points of this thread so far to keep people from reading through 13 screens. The top ten things we know:

10) Either BMW mechanics are crappy, or BMW engines are crappy-choose one.
9) Canadian teenagers drive sweet rides
8) "AS-IS" seems to be a difficult concept for many people to understand.
7) "AS-IS" is only to be used by dealerships.
6) Dealerships are too lazy to be bothered with evaluating cars for trades. It's what they do for a living (What Service Department?) dealing with cars and all.
5) Lawyers drive sweet rides and make lots of money.
4) Car salesmen smoke crack and hire prostitutes when not strong-arming teenagers.
3) This thread will soon be a plot line on Law and Order.
2) People are very pissed with the morals of young folk today, back in the 40's, if someone traded in a BMW X5 that wasn't in perfect condition, they'd take 'em out back and put the belt to 'em

And the #1 thing we know so far:

1) Gurneyeagle is the salesman that sold the TL and took the X5!!

bluenoser

This is not as far fetched as you may think.
Why do you think that used TL was on the Toyota lot in the first place.
I dont know many people who would dispose of a perfect condition, non damaged, non vibrating, rattle free 04TL this soon.
I traded mine because of the rattles and excessive rear tire wear that the dealer could not resolve. I feel sorry for the person who bought it. At least my dealer was fully aware of the 04's problems, but I seriously doubt they told the next owner all the problems.
I think the full history of this 04TL should be known.

gt1

Why not? IIRC, nearly everyone, including you agree that from a legal standpoint, dealer doesn't have much to go on. Why waste money in court?
There is one reason, why h-man will be better off with lawyer- if the dealer will know about it, harassment may stop faster.

FightingTL

It doesnt apply to used cars in any state I can think of off the top of my head. And it CERTAINLY doesnt apply to a dealership getting a car from an individual. It is to protect the individual from the big bad manufacturer.

gurneyeagle

Sorry dude, you are beyond all hope.

gurneyeagle

Ouch! Good one.

Actually, I'm a partner in the dealerships - both BMW and Toyota.

Law and Order? Sorry, I've already sold the screen rights to MGM.

Coming to a theater near you in the Fall of 2007 - "Hoody and the Bandit"
Starring:

Matt Damen as the lovable houdaman, innocent teen victim

Britney Spears as hoody's supportive girl friend

Keiffer Sutherland as hoody's attorney

Chris Rock as the looney Toyota used car salesman

Darth Vader as the Evil Toyota General Manager

Simon Cowell as the ball busting dealership attorney

Judge Judy as the presiding judge

Jay Leno as hoody's supporting, but demanding father

Mimi Rodgers as hoody's loving mom

The Pittsburgh Steelers in the supporting roll of internet geeks who spend entire days discussing the merits of a case they really no nothing about, shouldn't really care about, or should express any legal opinions about.

Special Guest Star - God in the role of gurneyeagle, the all knowing, pretentious, loud mouth, annoying, morality monitor, and all around nemisis to anyone under the age of 30.

Jennifer Alba as gurney's love interest and personal sex slave.

Will hoody be acquited?

Will the evil Toyota dealer crush yet another innocent victim?

Will hoody be able to eat the maccaroni and cheese served every Tuesday night at San Quentin?

Just what is really wrong with that X5?

Did life ever exist on Mars?

Stay tuned fans - same bat time, same bat channel!

gurneyeagle

I don't think they have any recourse against h-man, but since the attorney's are involved, who knows. The relevance of the BMW service report is the wild card here.

I predict this one is going to come down to who has the deepest pockets. If the Toyota dealer is really looking at a $15K repair (probably inflated for scare tactics), he's got a reason to play hard ball for a while. They may even have someone on retainer - relative, friend, etc. who does this for them.

I'm not sure I would want to walk into a courtroom to face a judge on this one.

I'll say it again - win or lose, h-man is going to be spending money that could have been saved by disclosing the problem, or fixing the car before trading it in.

More than likely, if he had repaired the car, he would have kept it for a while. I'm just not buying the whole "I was planning on trading it in" line.

seanmcd

WAIT WAIT WAIT... I'm confused. Explain to me how BMW goes from:
"Recommend removal of cyl head for further inspection. Possible require engine short block"
to
"changed the sparkplugs, it's running fine"

What are you leaving out here? Part of me says you have nothing to worry about, they are just trying to scare you, but I can't help but wonder how BMW would see a major problem and then turn around and change plugs out instead.

gurneyeagle

BMW - "Recommend removal of cyl head for further inspection. Possible require engine short block"

our hero - "changed the sparkplugs, it's running fine"

This assumes what he posted was accurate, and an even bigger assumption that his punctuation was correct.

My guess is the the BMW dealer changed the plugs as a first shot at a fix. Maybe a plug was fouled.

Or............. could our hero have told them "change the plugs, I'm going to dump this pig"?

That's all speculation, and really not fair to h-man.

graphicguy

That's some funny stuff right there, I don't care who you are.

In Gurney's defense, he states another side of the coin. It's legitimate. I don't happen to agree with it, but it does provide another "take" on the issue.

That is if houda would have told Toyota "'hey, this car runs fine now, but BMW said maybe, it might/perhaps need some hefty diagnosis time to decide why the CEL comes on. But, they fixed the CEL issue, I think, for now.....maybe forever". So, there's the quasi "moral" issue, which I believe houda is absolved from since he's not a mechanic and really doesn't know what, if anything, is wrong with the BMW (neither does the mechanic). Gurney says houda has a responsibility to disclose "something may be wrong....don't know what, though". I say houda did due diligence and should have a clear concience.

That brings up the 2nd point...Personally, I think the BWM mechanic should "just say no" to the drugs he's on when he makes a diagnosis, as he's clearly clueless in my humble estimation. I don't think the leakdown test was either read correctly, or more probably, done in the right way. No way, with 28% leakdown in one cylinder, this car runs fine, even with new plugs. There's going to be some blue smoke coming out of the tailpipe, which will set off the CEL immediately, new plugs or not. It's going to drive like crap. Dealer would certainly notice that, right? New Plugs won't mask the leak into the cylinder. I think something else, much simpler, is amiss here.

At least houda took it in for a fix. He chose the least expensive option for a fix. Nothing wrong with that.

Lastly, the Toyota dealership wants to turn and burn their inventory as quickly as possible, for as much money as possible. They aren't doing themselves any favors by not having another mechanic look at the car for a diagnosis. And then, stretching this out for weeks, maybe months, while they fight with houda. Their laziness and mis-assessment of the car's trade value, will take weeks, if not months to resolve. Best thing for them to do is to either get a proper diagnosis, fix it, put it on their lot, or take it to auction (where they will get less than retail).

automag928

This is exactly what I was trying to get at...Houda says the car ran fine and couldnt tell any difference...That thing would have issues regardless if the plugs were swapped...air is leaking out of the cylinder and not combusting! Some of a few things that could happen - Its going to be low on power, not "feel" right, smoking white/blue smoke out of exhaust, popping the dipstick out, throwing oil everywhere inside the intake tube/throttle body...Now there could be several reasons WHY that is happening, BUT for no other issues showing EXCEPT a CEL?? That doesnt seem right...So either we are being spoon-fed our information on this thread OR the BMW mechanics really dont know WTF they are doing, and the 'yota dealer is buying into that, hoping to cash in...
Houda, what was the original reason you took it to the BMW dealer? Just the CEL coming on?

Houda - Ask toyota to perform their own leakdown test, or even better have it taken to a nuetral 3rd party mechanic to do the leakdown...There may not be any issues with it...

gurneyeagle

[QUOTE=graphicguy]That is if houda would have told Toyota "'hey, this car runs fine now, but BMW said maybe, it might/perhaps need some hefty diagnosis time to decide why the CEL comes on. But, they fixed the CEL issue, I think, for now.....maybe forever". So, there's the quasi "moral" issue, which I believe houda is absolved from since he's not a mechanic and really doesn't know what, if anything, is wrong with the BMW (neither does the mechanic). Gurney says houda has a responsibility to disclose "something may be wrong....don't know what, though". I say houda did due diligence and should have a clear concience./QUOTE]

Graph:

We agree to disagree here.

My interpretation of what h-man posted the service invoice as saying is that BMW identified a problem - the cylinder, and recommended further diagnosis. I didn't see the words "might/perhaps".

H-man may have no legal responsibility to disclose anything, but if he would have, he wouldn't be in this fix. I quit pushing the ethics issue long ago because it fell on deaf ears.

He tried to slide something by, and got caught. Plain and simple. He may not have broken any laws, but the money he thought he was going to save, may be evaporating in legal fees and worse, a judgement against him.

Whether "people do it all the time" or "all dealers are crooks" is irrelevent. Those are justifications for certain actions. We do what we can personally live with; it's called our conscience.

As someone who would have fixed the car, or at the very least disclosed the problem, I find the fact that he is getting the screws put to him entertaining. That may make me a sucker in most people's eyes, but I'm not the one with a dealer's attorney breathing down my neck.

You play your games, you take your chances. It all comes down to the amount of risk you are willing to take. To add another cliché - "What goes around comes around".

gurneyeagle

Excellent post! We are basing legal opinions on a small set of facts provided by the h-man. Who knows the real story, or even what the service report really said?

acutee

h-man has more chances of winning the case. Why? He is a consumer, he is selling a used car, he is selling it as-is, the car was tested by dealer, the car was okay when traded in. Dealers are leeches too. They will suck you in every way they can. Who knows if they purposely damaged it, or made it worse because they changed their mind. Tell me if the dealers never used the term "As-Is". Lets take it the other way around, I bet the dealer will laugh at you if you when you bring the car back 2 weeks later with this kind of major problem; unless you can prove it.

gurneyeagle

I agree with you to some extent acutee. To answer your question -

[B]"Lets take it the other way around, I bet the dealer will laugh at you if you when you bring the car back 2 weeks later with this kind of major problem; unless you can prove it"[/B]

What if you had bought the X5 and:

- the CEL comes on;

- you take it to the BMW dealer; and

- they pull up the service record, print it out and it says "Check engine light on. Engine misfiring. Perform leakdown test to find cyl 1 is leaking 28% and cyl 2 8%. Recommend removal of cyl head for further inspection. Possible require engine short block."?

Seems to me that the dealer would be fixing the X5 I had just bought from them. It would be their problem, not mine, to decide what to do about the person who originally traded it in.

If the CEL hadn't come on until after the X5 was sold, this story may be on a BMW board instead of this one.

acutee

I do agree with you, gurneyeagle. That is one thing H-man needs to concern, he was informed something was wrong with the car by bmw, and reason himself that the car was running fine after the spark plugs fixed. And he got lucky it was running fine when they tested it. It is a gambling case for h-man.

gurneyeagle

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!

That's the point I've been trying to make for a week.

chill_dog

@ JERU's lesson's learned and gurney's upcoming movie

awood

Well, the difference is that they *can* prove it! I've only ready the original sender's arguments here, but I've read enough to come to form a personal opinion as to whether he knew the car had problems or not.

I recently sold a used 2002 TLS and the contract I signed made clear I was stating that I was not aware of any issues with the vehicle. I imagine all contracts are similar. I don't care if you put "as-is" or "as far as you know" or what ever you want besides your signature. In the case of my contract, I believe it would have be fraudulent for me to sign if I knew that my car had major repair issues.

Its quite possible he'll be able to get away with this, but I would be very nervous in his place.

acutee

I hear what you are saying. It is a hard decision for h-man even he is favored by the law, but to himself, he knew he tricked the toyota guy.

graphicguy

gurney....I have no problem in agreeing to disagree. That's what a good debate is all about (and this one is a dandy).

If this does go to court (which I seriously doubt) with the strong arm dealer's tactics, houda or his representation, should force the Toyota dealership to prove where there was any fraud involved. Bottom line, houda did due diligence in getting the BMW fixed. Dealership didn't notice any sort of operational problems when they assessed the vehicle. Then, two weeks later, they state something's wrong with the BMW (CEL).

When it was traded, nothing was amiss with the vehicle. The professional assessor (Toyota personnel, in this instance) didn't find anything wrong. Houda didn't pour "gumout" in the crankcase do hide anything. He simply fixed the CEL problem. Everything else the mechanic states is pure speculation (and not even good speculation, at that....since he can't pinpoint what, if anything, is wrong).

I know of one person who traded in their BMW because he said the I-Drive didn't work correctly. Fact is, nothing's wrong with I-Drive. It's just so damn complex, it's difficult to use.

Having been a victim of a couple of cars with chronic CEL lights (not BMWs), I can state that they are usually a very simple fix. It's funny, when those cars were in warranty, the mechanics usually went for the simplest/quickest solutions (which worked). When they were out of warranty, the dealership personnel wanted to take the most drastic, time consuming, and most costly measures to diagnose and fix them.

graphicguy

automag....good points. If you are experiencing a 28% leakdown, anyone who drives the car will know it. Some, if not all the symptoms you state will be present.

willz822

Didn't mean to hijack the thread....but it's Jessica Alba....and she's in love with me......

Ok.....back to the thread....

Andrea25

Exactly...key word on the invoice here is "reccomended"..

you wouldn't believe me if i told you some of the repairs that were "recommended" on the 4 cars i've owned in my life...

awood

I'm not a lawyer, but I don't believe you can get a professional opinion, and then legally dismiss it (because its not what you wanted to hear) by signing a contract stating you know of no issues with the car.

The dealer's failure to notice the problem is not an exemption. It would be like you paid for the car with counterfeit bills. "The finance guy didn't notice they were fake bills, and he's a money expert, so I'm OK."

Uhm ... ok. (I'm sure that will go over big with the jury ). Of course if we argue it on this level, then the dealer could call a "do over" and "double dog dare" the OP to trade back his car.

The OP's only chance is that the dealer doesn't persue the case, which is possible, given the bad publicity it could cause.

TXXXX

You are bunch of fools.


Houdaman does NOT have to disclose anything unless it is safety related.
That's why the dealer inspects before giving Houdaman a figure for the trade in.

It is up to the buyer to discover the working condition of the car unless it is specified by law or SAFETY related. Which in this case, the responsibility falls on the dealer.

subinf

When was the last time h-man posted in this thread. As entertaining as it is, I think it has run its course and should either be locked or started over in ramblings. I think we are almost beating a dead horse on this one after 14 pages.

acutee

Fabvsix

I haven't read every single post but seems to me Toyota should be suing the BMW dealership for screwing over the consumer knowing damn well that X5 needed a new block, but choose to put new plugs to buy time. Houda was smart, read thru the lines and traded it....How did the Toyota dealership determine that took a bad deal????????????????????????????????? Because BMW admitted it ! This is a no brainer.....the Toyota dealership fooked up....
End of case !

Moral of this story: DON'T BUY USED CARS !!!!!!!!

subinf

I dont know if suing the BMW dealership would work. They replaced the spark plugs, CEL went off for a while. H-man sold the car to Toyota. Two weeks later the CEL came back on, Toyota brought the car to BMW, BMW told Toyota about their previous diag. and what work was done to alleviate the problem.

I don't think suing BMW would work. Thats like going after an independent mechanic because he said one way to get rid of valve noise is to add thicker oil instead of adjusting them. Its a short term problem to a potentially larger issue. I still want to see/hear what exactly happened between BMW and H-man

your_mom

Ha! Good luck seating a jury where no members have been screwed over by a dealership.

Formula 350

I have read most of this thread and find it amusing...

Most people are talking with very little knowledge.. I do no think many of us know Canadian law..

And even in the US.. (some lawyer will give the exact info) you have to have a meeting of the minds for a contract to be valid.. The dealership is claiming that there was not a meeting of the minds... that is something for a court..

And all of you who say that you could tell that one cylinder was out on a V8.. I laugh.. and this is from experience..

Many years ago I had a 4 cyl engine... one of the pistons cracked on the side and it had a lot of blowby... I could not tell there was a problem until I saw the oil being pumped into the intake and the spark plug got fouled... I rigged up a can to catch the oil and would pour it back in the engine... I had a bunch of spark plugs and when driving it would start to stumble I knew the plug was fouled... would pull to the side of the road and change the spark plug.. back to 'full' power, or at least it FELT like full power.. had to do this for about 9 months until I got enough money to pay for the fix... instead of a new engine, they just pulled the piston from the bottom of the engine, did a grind on the block and put in a new piston... worked just fine...

So I would doubt anybody would be able to tell that ONE cylinder was not producing full power... it still is producing some...

KJSmitty

Actually the stealership engine analyzers can very accurately tell if a cylinder is pulling its weight or not. The computer will individually kill each cylinder then compute the amount of rpm drop etc. It can determine how strong and/or wreak a cylinder is compared to the others. So, can they tell if it's producing full power? Not really but they can get a percentage of how it compares to the rest of the cylinders. Next step is a simple compression check....

In the 8+ years I spent working at a dealership I never witnessed them pursuing a used car costumer due to a "bad" trade-in - and it happened all the time to say the least... We just fixed whatever was wrong with them... If we didn't find it during our inspection / before signing the paperwork, it was the dealers problem

automag928

I laugh at THAT statement...For the past 5-6 years I've been driving my v8 and NUMEROUS other V8s....mine was the lowest one with 350 rwhp...pretty much stock...but I have driven from my lowly 350rwhp up to almost 550 rwhp NA (on a roadtrip down from Michigan to Florida)...and another at 700rwhp with a direct port nitrous setup...When you have 20% leakdown on one cylinder on a V8, YOU DAMN SURE KNOW IT! I've got plenty of video of smoke pouring out the exhaust while driving, a dipstick tube out of its hole once we parked it and opened the hood, and oil coating the entire engine bay...and I can probably dig up pictures of the melted piston...

davenlei

All I can say is....

Bad publicity = Quieted tongues.


If this gets to the local TV about them going after people who trade in cars, how many people do you think will not touch that dealer with a ten foot pole anymore. They know this story will be really bad for their business regardless of who did the wrong thing.

fast-tl

It would be obvious from your description that on those hopped up engines which are not mildly tuned like a stock vehicle, a drop in power would be noticeable. I pulled a wire on my Ford Expedition's V8 and I could seriously tell no difference running on 7 cylinders vs. 8. So comparing a high strung engine to a milder stock one is apples and oranges.

automag928

Who said the the engine that had the bad leakdown was high strung and not a stock one?

fast-tl

Re-read your post. You're saying YOU could tell a bad cylinder, but you're talking about high-hp engines (350-550 is what I would call high strung) compared to a roughly 280hp V8 in the BMW X5. You're comparing apples and oranges. My Expedition only had 240hp, and was likely tuned so that even with a dead cylinder driveability wouldn't be affected much. When you have a very high horsepower engine you're asking a lot of it, so when it's misfiring or has a dead cylinder, it will likely be MUCH more noticeable.

automag928

My car had a catback exhaust on it...and it dyno'd almost at 350rwhp...I would call that pretty much "stock"...no tuning, no anything, just a set of mufflers..