kenny5

Formuala 350, mechanics liens, just like many other artisans liens (such as materialmens lliens, construction liens or warehouse liens), are considered non-consensual liens. In fact, they are generally classified as statutory liens because they arise under statutes, just like tax liens. In certain jurisdictions, a holder of such lien may have to file a notice with the appropriate recording office in order to "perfect" the lien. Well, I don't want to go into detail, because that can get complicated and BORING !!

ACURight

the same problem with my trade in. Exact situation a like you I wrote AS-IS (learned from a friend who was a car salesman) on the contract. They called and harrassed me for a week. I called a lawyer and in the end I kept my TL and no more harrassment from the man

eneg

No, I think that even when they are needed, they are still hated!

Eneg

fast-tl

I haven't finished the thread yet, but here's something that hasn't been mentioned so far: there's a reason that KBB and Emunds list trade-in values as differnt from used retails values. In part it is because of the power-steering issues, the bent wheel issues and such that the dealer has to correct before reselling a vehicle. They know some funds out of the deal will be required to prep the trade for resale, so I think it's neither necessary to repair everything nor divule every detail of a car's life before trade. The dealership "does this for a living" and have staff dedicated to appraising trade-ins. It doesn't take long fro them to pull plugs and inspect engine internals before making an offer. So let's not necessarily PITY the dealer nor rejoice in their plight. They are professionals and have evaluated many more vehicles in a month than we may own in a lifetime. Houdaman put down as-is and left the staff to do what they do: evaluate his trade. Had he TRIED to cover up (oh don't mind that stumble when you hit the gas) that would've been different. Go back and look at the difference between his trade amount and what they listed the X5 for. Was that more than enough profit to cover the required repairs? HIGHLY likely, so let's not cry for the dealer.

03CoupeV6

A dealer must do reconditioning on a vehicle before it can be sold on the lot. They probably sent it to auction and let it be someone else's problem, though.

subinf

Get another lawyer to see if you can counter sue (get creative) in order to recover any legal fees.

aznt1217

Too lazy to read thread. If you take legal action, judgement will most likely be for you. Judging from the beginning of the thread. It was a bilateral agreement. Paper work was signed and the conditions were stated, therefore irrevocable for whenever the time period was agreed on to get the TL.

gurneyeagle

Okay, one last shot at this.

Disregard the actions of the dealer (crooked or not) for the problem with the X5.

Disregard your opinion of dealers in general (good or bad - like we can't figure that one out!).

Disregard the attitude of "kill or be killed".

All good things to consider, and to be aware of, when is buying/selling/trading a car.

Take out all the discussions about morality/ethics/legality, etc.

No one has yet to answer this one question:

If houdaman had simply disclosed the problem with the X5, would we even be having this discussion?

It definitely would have cost him more money in the deal (assuming they would have taken the car on trade at all), but compared to the headaches, his time, and now legal fees, what's the true cost of the transaction?

graphicguy

"If houdaman had simply disclosed the problem with the X5, would we even be having this discussion?"

That's the point....in houda's defense, there was nothing to disclose. The BMW service detp wasn't sure what was wrong, if anything at all. They wanted to do surgery on the engine to see if maybe....might be....perhaps something wrong. Even if they did crack open the engine, they didn't know what, if anything, was wrong.

Houda did nothing wrong here.

gurneyeagle

NO, NO, NO, that's not the point of the question! Focus people!

Take out all discussions of right and wrong. How can you possibly say there was nothing to disclose? I'm not even saying he should have disclosed anything now. That is irrelevant to my question.

What is the answer to the original question?

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

Sure....Houdaman is just being skiddish, being young, and as most people would. I frankly, would have went up to this dude personally and told him to his face that he really wasnt that intimidating and that you had absolutely no idea what he was talking about. Up to now...all you have done by talking to the guy is lower your cards so they can see some of your hand. Blow him off....if it was reversed...he would be doing the same, trust me. He hasnt done jack yet that if fact, other than you feeling better, that required you to hire an atty. whatsoever. That was his/your personal choice there. I wouldnt have messed with it until I got a legel document of some sort...which up to now...all I have heard was lip service by a manager who looks like a idiot right now. Consider this....(especially since you have received nothing formal whatsoever) you got one over on him (happens all the time) and he is bitter because he cant believe that someone of your age got over on him, therefore he is in turn being a dick just to spoil your enjoyment of your new car and make you scared for a while until you figure out there is nothing he can do. Does this make sense at all? Now quit spending money you could spend on TL mods dealing with a car you no longer even own. That is somebody elses problem. Its called the automotive business....and this dealership manager knows that better than you do....it just sounds like he made an assumption about your trade in....and you know about assumptions. As several have stated....there is a reason people trade in their cars....and it ususally isnt because they just put $3000 in repairs to it! It was up to the dealer to take due dilligence and inspect the car and find these issues. I dont feel it is necessarily your responsibility to tell him jack! Now back to the assumption thing.....ASSUME......and you make an ASS out of U and ME, right? Ok....has made an ass out of himself due to his assumption, and now is in the process of making you look the same way? Dont squirm and know your rights dude! He is only arguing with you about something that is past history. Not only would pursuing this be fruitless on his part....and bad PR....if he were to take this to court...he would still have to retain the car the whole time...which costs more money....he is gonna dump it at auction as already stated earlier and he is just messing with you totally!

wilsel

What would happen if you bought a used car from someone, and 1 week later the engine blew? Nothing unless they give you some type of warranty. Bad luck on the dealers part. Cars are not like houses, there is no disclosure statement. Don't worry about a thing.

automag928

Wrong...A 28% leakdown on one cylinder PROVES there was something wrong...Maybe some of you dont understand EXACTLY what a leakdown test shows, BUT 28% is bad...Hence the reason I keep asking, houdaman...What did it drive like? What happened when you hit the gas pedal? Did it feel low on power or stumble at all?? This is the third time I've asked it, and no response yet...

Just curious.......

wilsel

A loose plug could produce a leakdown. A valve severly off adjustment could also produce a leakdown like that. Honestly, I believe he traded his car in knowing it was something more severe. At the same time it is up to the dealer to inspect the car thoroughly. Just because the check engine light wasn't on, doesn't mean its fine. Had they turned the car around (sold it the next day), and the CEL came on for the new buyer. Do you think they would stand behind it? Hell no.

houdaman

Sorry I didnt see your other 2 posts I guess.
Car drove fine! And obviously drove fine enough for the Sales Manager that took it for a rip around the block to approve the car.

Rapid1

to houdaman:

if you read back to my first post, I wasnt trying to pass judgment on you personally, I just wanted to get you to look at a different side of things. all the dealer hate, lawyer bs and screw the other guy stuff just really got me going. I dont think it is ok to screw anyone, no matter who they are. as you said, the car ran fine and obviously, the CEL didnt light on the appraisal drive. the dealers dont tear every car down before sale and this is not a problem that could have been caught on a simple test drive at trade-in time. it seems as though they made a deal with you in good faith but you werent in the good faith mode. if the CEL had not come on for them at some point in time, they would have sold it to the next guy in good faith and then have to deal with an unhappy consumer that has been brainwashed into thinking the dealer tried to screw him.

all I was originally suggesting, even if I didnt spell it out very good, was that you could try to negotiate with them first about this issue, saved the lawyer bs and cost, and probably come out ahead. and regained a bit of credibility...if that matters to you. it obviously doesnt to most of the posters in this thread...

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

Rapid1....

I have read several of your posts and for your values....I commend you sir. BUT...the fact is...this guy didnt screw ANYBODY at all. The fact is...it was the dealer manager that screwed himself and is now trying to get Houdaman to pay for it. Yes....maybe his car was overvalued....but he did not assign this value nor have ANYTHING to do with the assignment of said value...trust me....they assign the fair market value to a car based on their judgement...not based on anything Houdaman states. I am kind of suprised they didnt stop the deal and look again at the signing given the as is caviat was added to the mix....but it was they were driving the deal....not houdaman....or I am sure houdaman would have in fact valued the car higher than he got, I bet, if it was left for him to fill in the blank.

Example....You go to get a home equity line of credit, which requires an appraisal of your home and property. The appraiser comes out and tells you that your house is worth $250,000. Are you going to tell him that there isnt a house in your neighborhood that has sold over $225,000 in the last two years, thus lessening your possible available line of credit? Are you going to call the bank and state....sir...I think you have overvalued my house and I want to give you some of these funds back that I borrowed because I just dont think the numbers you are working with are fair to you guys? Heck no....you are going to assume they know what they are doing (they are the professionals after all) and move on! And why they are appraising your home...are you going to follow the appraiser around and say...hey...I had a leak fixed in that wall four years ago and there was some water damage we fixed....just so you know....and this should probably mean my house appraises for less too....I think not! This guy went into a dealer and traded his car off.....they did the appraisal and offered him a deal....deal was completed and now this guy after the fact is just now looking at the car closely? Please! This is in no way Houdamans fault.....and he should in no way feel responsible for the above mentioned reasons.

SatinSilverTypS

iTrader: (1)

i agree with MichaelBenz. i've never sold any of my used cars and not put "AS IS" on the bill of sale. now that's not to say you shouldn't fess up when the buyer is looking at it if you know of a severe issue, but considering BMW didn't say to him "this is a big deal, your engine could fail at any time, please let us look at it" then it's not malicious on his part. the toyota dealer could have called any local BMW and asked for a fax of the service records.

think about it, if you didn't put as is on all your sales, whats to stop joe schmoe who buys your car privately from sueing you two weeks later because your torque converter fails suddenly when you couldn't have known anything about it? obviously this requires trust that the other party is telling you the truth, but if you don't think you can trust them then walk away. buy a new car if you don't want to take a chance on used vehicles.

a dealer who gives you the car back with a "recommendation" to investigate further isn't really concerned or they would call you and say "we found a serious problem". otherwise they are liable for your safety. they cannot knowingly give you back a defective car if the defect can put you in harms way. i'm sure canadian laws are similiar on this.

do you think every tl owner who trades in their 2nd gen says "my transmission could fail at any time, do you want to take this car in trade still?". no they don't, but i wouldn't consider it malicious or morally wrong because clearly no one can predict if their tranny will suddenly fail. of course if your tranny slipped like crazy and you never told anyone, that's different.

a good salesman (in toyota's case) should have had his mechanics inspect the car thoroughly prior to accepting it, and a good buyer (in the case of any tl buyer) should do research prior to purchasing any product to find out about widespread complaints (i.e.- the tranny).

SSTS

fast-tl

I see your points throughout the thread, and you're trying to do a good thing. However, you're making ONE critical error: Houdaman DID in fact disclose the condition. He said you are buying this truck AS-IS. You are not buying it "pending an engine rebuild" or any such condition. When he put as-is on the contract he listing the condition of the vehicle just as much as if he'd put "perfect condition"

graphicguy

"Take out all discussions of right and wrong. How can you possibly say there was nothing to disclose? I'm not even saying he should have disclosed anything now. That is irrelevant to my question."

Houda traded in a used car. The dealership BOUGHT a used car. The dealership evaluated the "wear and tear" on the vehicle and assessed the value. The dealership's personnel are professionals at their job. IF they wanted to tear down the engine to see if there was a plug loose, or something more significant that was wrong, they certainly could have asked houda to let them do that. They didn't. The dealership was wrong in their assessment. End of story.

Don't make this a moral issue. It ain't. Houda's not a BMW mechanic. He's not a professional in stating a car's worth. The dealership, on the other hand, IS!

If they want to sell new BMWs, with no wear and tear, they can buy a franchise.

gurneyeagle

Good points tl. Same with the comments from graphic. I agree that he did nothing wrong legally. Morally, I concede that is a personal thing, so take that out of the discussion.

But it still comes back to the question that no one as of yet has answered - If he had disclosed the problem with the X5, would we be having this discussion? It's a very simple question that no one wants to respond to because, deep down, they know the answer.

H-man knew there was a problem with the car, let's not fool ourselves with arguments that the dealer said it was fine and it was driving okay. There was a documented question as to the condition of the engine. Yes, he sold it "AS-IS", and yes the dealer took the trade "AS-IS".

My point of this entire discussion is accepting the consequences of your actions; i.e. responsibility. You're actions can be legal; you can make arguments to justify them to your conscience, but that still doesn't mean you did the right thing.

I also agree with michaelbenz. There is no question that in this case, a relatively inexperienced young man is being strong-armed by a dealer. Their tactics, while also probably legal, aren't right either. Apparently this thing is going to escalate even further.

Why? Go back to my original (as of yet) unanswered question. Sometimes you get caught with your pants down. It isn't fair, but that's life. The trick is trying to ensure you don't get into these types of situations. Sometimes that costs you a little more on the front end, but saves a bundle on the back end. Peace of mind carries a high value too.

Trust me, I've learned this lesson the hard way. It took several incidents to finally get it through my thick head. I think some of the other "geezers" on the Board will agree, as you get older you hopefully learn from your mistakes.

There so much bitching and whining on these boards (most of which is rather amusing and entertaining) by guys that obviously are way too immature. It's really sad. It's the immaturity and irresponsibility shown that makes we question how they are driving $35K cars. I wonder what it's going to take for them to grow up.

houdan - I hope this works out for you without costing a bunch in legal fees, and more importantly the stress and aggravation that goes with it all. I know you didn't post on the Board looking to get raked over the coals like you have. Like I said on Friday, I apologize for that.

I just hope that you understand the point I'm trying to make. Apparently, there are many on the Board who don't have a clue. Thank God I don't buy used cars anymore!

Sermon over.

graphicguy

"If he had disclosed the problem with the X5, would we be having this discussion?"

Ummmmm, not trying to be argumentative, but what was houda supposed to disclose? He took it to BMW for service, they said they fixed it. Maybe.....perhaps.....if the moon lines up with Mars.....BMW said something else COULD be wrong. I can say that about ANY used car. It's used...not new. As far as houda knew, it could have been something....it could have been nothing. It could have been something serious....it could just have well been nothing of any consequence. Again, what exactly should he have disclosed?

What you're saying is, every used car that's traded in, should have a total tear down to see if something's amiss that might turn up a major problem. More to the point, every used car has wear and tear. All of them could run for 200,000 miles without major incident. On the other hand, any of them could pull out of the driveway and drop a transmission tomorrow.

What you're asking houda to do is to look into a crystal ball and try to predict something, in the future, that may, or may not, affect the longevity of this car. Unfortunately, none of us can predict the future. Nor, can we predict how long any given used car will last without a major breakdown.

The dealership, who has professional assessors, drove the car. It drove fine, everything worked the way it was supposed to. It looked good. They assessed a value based on their professional opinion. They may, or may not be, wrong in their assessment.

That's not houda's fault. Trying to hold him responsible as a professional assessor of used cars, or a soothsayer on when/if a car will break.....well....that dog won't hunt.

RickRoush03

man, this is out of control, bottom line is that a general sales manager had to approve the transaction, thats who's ass needs to be in the ringer. you did nothing wrong.

gurneyeagle

graphic:

I don't think you are being argumentative, and I'm not asking Houdaman to do anything. Who's asking him to be a professional assessor?

There was some question as to the condition of the X5 engine. It has been documented by houdaman himself, how else we we all know about it? There was no need for a crystal ball here - he read the BMW report.

No need to do teardowns of used cars, that's for the dealer to decide. Wait, I just placed responsibility on the dealer. Yep I did.

It comes down to being reasonable. Teardowns aren't. Taking your car in for a check up before trading it in isn't either. The difference hear is that houdaman ahd knowledge of a potential serious problem with the engine that he didn't disclose. Was that his real motivation for selling the X5? No one knows that but houdaman.

Since no one will answer the question, I will.

In my opinion, if he would have disclosed the issue raised by BMW:

1. it would have cost him some money on the trade;
2. he wouldn't be dealing with the headache he now has (or my wrath! ;
3. when this is finally settled, he will have spent less money.

Another interesting question, which no one will answer -

If it was your X5, and you had the same knowledge of the condition of it's engine, would you sell it to a good friend or relative without telling them about the possible problem?

Since the silence will be deafening on this one, I'll answer it - NO!

Like I said in the previous post, legality/ethics aside, he took a chance and he got caught. Avoid the chance, and you avoid the headaches. It's really that simple.

Rapid1

this was my point exactly. while I dont really think he needed to offer up the information during the transaction, he got busted, and my suggestion was more one of after-the fact negotiation in an effort to save money and hassle. the fact in this case is that houdaman knew there were potentially major issues with the engine. the next step in diagnosis was an expensive one, either for houdaman or for the dealer. this information was not considered in the financial transaction between the two. still, most of you say this was "OK" at best, and the "dealer deserved it" at worst.

also, AS-IS doesnt mean jack shit. every used car sold in my state says AS-IS on it. you think that makes you give up all your rights? not here it dont...you can sue whoever you want, when you want. just costs money...

fast-tl

Wow, gurney you say Houdaman would've given up "some" money on the trade. Realistically, they likely would've refused the trade, or offered some ridiculous lowball offer. Can you tell us precisely (as precise as you care) how you would've handled it? Also a question or two:

Would you have disclosed and taken the revised much lower trade offer?

Would you have simply fixed the X5 and kept driving it (seeing as how Houdaman has spent $5800 on the difference between the TL and X5 *anyway*)?

Would you have fixed the X5 and then traded (why?)

I'd also like Houdaman's input on this. Why didn't you simply use the $5800 to fix the truck?

MichaelBenz

iTrader: (2)

Again...I applaud your values Rapid1...you are somebody I would really like and enjoy to have as a friend and neighbor, no doubt! And I do see the whole do unto others sentimentality and train of thought in your words, which are very admirable. I do believe that Houdaman knew there was something wrong with the car...this is pretty undisputed. Since you claim nobody is answering your questions...I will....NO..I would not sell that car to a friend or relative without disclosing these problems....and you are really correct in you pointing out that this then does not make it right to do it otherwise and he got called on the carpet. BUT...that is why he didnt sell it to a friend. I do tend to agree with you on the - had he revealed this up front, he would have way less hassles now....but not with the statement that its gonna cost him more in the long run now. He is young....as already pointed out.....if he would have just ignored this dude to begin with this would already be over, no cost to him. Peace of mind is a personal issue and one that many people never come to...so I will not even go there. Some people are just skiddish and will never acheive peace of mind and always be second guessing themselves.....right or wrong. I do believe that peace of mind and personal values are semi inter-twined though....and not that you have to have great values in order to acheive peace of mind...but in that it depends upon the importance and relevence of stated values to the individual in question, before peace of mind is at issue.

No/little values = easy to acheive peace of mind (example- theif)
Stretegically applied values = hard to acheive peace of mind due to conflicting values all the time (example-the masses)
Globally applied values = easy to acheive peace of mind (example - Jesus)


Bottom line.....most of us lie in the middle somewhere due to these strategically placed values that we dont apply globally in every situation, and this is a classic case. This guy has no peace of mind due to the fact that he lies in the middle and this older guy has made him question his own actions (otherwise he wouldnt even be here talking about it as it would be a non-event) In time...he will get over this and maybe learn to become more globally centered and become a wiser person. In closing....I leave another statement I have quoted before...but is very applicable here!
**********************************************
I'm saying you've already done plenty of things to regret, you just don't know what they are. It's when you discover them, when you see the folly in something you've done, and you wish that you had it do over, but you know you can't, because it's too late. So you pick that thing up, and carry it with you to remind you that life goes on, the world will spin without you, you really don't matter in the end. Then you will gain character, because honesty will reach out from inside and tattoo itself across your face. (The Big Kahuna, 1999)

Pure Adrenaline

iTrader: (2)

Somebody's gonna have someone's ass, and you bet they will try to go after houdaman first.

Oh, come on. The BMW dealership replaced the plugs, the car ran fine, and houdaman decided to trade it in. Do you honestly expect every car that circulates in the market to be in perfect shape? Why is it that you're demanding honesty from houdaman, the consumer, yet you know there's dishonesty everywhere in the car market, all the way from the manufacturer down to the salesperson.

I'm actually glad to see that a dealership got had for once. They fucked themselves because they didn't properly check out the car, and now they are using scare tactics to reverse the deal.

Let's think about this for a second... assume for a second houdaman wins this and the Toyota dealership is stuck with the X5. Do you really expect the Toyota dealership to fix the car properly before selling it? If not, do you expect the dealership to disclose this information to the buyer, and that it will require repairs? No way. They will sell it "as-is" and when the new owner discovers the problem, the dealership will hide behind its "as-is" clause and say "sorry, you're screwed."

It's a fair game. The dealership got fucked. End of story. Nobody plays honest in the car business. Get real.

gurneyeagle

tl:

I would have either gotten the car fixed or at least disclosed the potential problem.

More than likely, I would have gotten it fixed and then traded it in. At that point, my conscience would have been clear, and I would have met my responsibility in dealing fairly, dealership ethics aside.

That's pretty much what happened with the trade in on my CL last September to a much lesser degree. The car developed an electrical gremlin that would caused it to not start sometimes unpredictably.

Within two days of the first occurence, I took it to the Acura dealer where they could never replicate the problem. I told them to fix what they thought it could possibly be. Since the dealer could not give me 100% assurance that the car was fixed, and the fact it had 105K miles on it, I decided to trade it in on a new TL.

The car was appraised in the service bay. They knew more about the car's condition than I did. I paid for the repairs and then purchased the new car (yea, I know my parents are fools for that, but anyone not thinking I was going to pay for it anyway is the fool). Interestingly enough, the Used Car manager purchased the car for his daughter.

You are exactly correct in saying they would have offered a lower price or refused the offer. Why do you think houdaman didn't disclose it? THAT'S MY POINT. Whether he decided to trade the X5 only after finding out it had a potential very expensive engine problem, well only hudaman can answer. Based on his posts, I've got my opinion on that.

The lesson I learned many moons ago is that sooner or later things catch up with you. Houdaman got caught in a situation that simply could have been avoided by disclosing a potential problem. It's matter of risk vs, reward. In trying to save money, he's now spending more.

For some reason none of this sinks in with a bunch of other people here. All they are doing is potentially setting themselves up for the same problem in the future and perpetuating the problem with used cars.

Since I don't buy used cars, I really have no exposure here, other than how shady dealings affect trade-in values, but that's a subject way too deep for most of the guys on this Board.

This has been an interesting discussion. Scary at some times, but interesting.

Not everyone in the world is trying to rip you off. Being smart doesn't mean you have to be cynical - or dishonest.

sbasaria

You put as is on the deal and thus they should respect that. They are always trying to scare people. Retain a lawyer for sure. Good luck.

jaymd123

I traded in a '99 M3 once with the Check Engine Light on to Carmax and they said absolutely nothing to me. I also got more than the car was worth on the trade!!

Good luck Houdman, I don't think u did anything wrong and I'm kinda glad to see them running around with their heads chopped off. If the situation was reversed they would say "oh well" which is exactly what you should be doing right now. It's all scare tactics.

Andrea25

http://www.qp.gov.bc.ca/statreg/stat/m/96318_00.htm

the law about ANYTHING to do with vehicles...


you have nothing to worry about...you do not hold a dealers license so have no obligations at all for anything.....these jackasses woould get laughed out of court..

also, the privacy act in canada is a VERY HUGE DEAL...
nowadays, you can't say or disclose anything to anybody for any reason...for example, a lot of bigger companies even refuse to give references or recommendations...they can be held liable if you don't get a job based on what they said....basically, all they're allowed to say is confirming the period you worked there, and whether you would be rehired..

i think you should tear that BMW dealer a new one...

Andrea25

actually it is a privacy violation in canada....i couldn't even get the acura dealer to tell me the radio code when i bought my used integra...

Andrea25

in canada, you cannot plate a vehicle you don't own...if they're waiting for the cheque to clear or whatever bfore they give him title, that's fine...but he can't drive it in the meantime.....

also, they can't tow it....don't take your plates off at at night...that's a $500 "failure to display" ticket

houdaman

UPDATE
~March 14~
Registered Mail came today from their lawyer

Its a 3 page letter that basically describe the whole situation like I did before in my posts, but here are their main points summed up:
-You did not disclose problems of the BMW, attached is a copy of the repair order from BMW dating Feb 15 in which these serious internal engine problems have been reported
-You opted to have none of the recommended work done by them at the time
-In discussion with BMW, the repair could be upwards of $15,000
-Toyota as reported that you have directed his attention to where you wrote "since vehicle is used, sold as is" to the right of your signature. If anything, the inserted words (which have not been intialed from anyone from Toyota to signify acceptance of such condition) is a strong circumstantial evidence that you knew the engine problems and wanted avoid telling Toyota
- Law of contract is that one party knowingly not disclosing a fact that he knows woiuld cause another party to reduce an offer, or not proceed with the purchase at all is a case of misrepresentation.
-Toyota demands by Tues Mar 21 you either
1. Return the Acura in exchange back for your BMW, and Toyota will refund all your money on the transaction
2. pay $10,000 to Toyota by bank draft to Toyota and they will have no further complaint against you.

If you do not carry out any of the above requests by the 21st, Toyota intends to proceed to sue you for misrepresentation.

banelba

Boy once again wait it out. At the worse they will say that they will take u to court and nothing will happen. It's call INTIMIDATION

svtmike

If I were you, I'd get a lawyer. The legal advice you get here is worth every penny paid.

Mike

houdaman

I will be faxing this to a lawyer tomorrow

xtin

getting really deep now.

mikef

In California the dealer would have no basis for a lawsuit, I am positive of that, over the years I have owned 3 dealerships. I do not know the law in your area and country. Do you know any car dealership owners or General managers in your area? They should be able to help you. If you do not consult with an attorney because legal fees could kill you. YOU need information. In California that type of letter could be considered harrassment. In California you would be able to go DMV Investigations and it would be settled fast. In California the Toyota dealer would be in big trouble for witholding title and harassment. Try calling the DMV. I do not believe they can play games with the title if you paid in full as agreed at the time of sale. Trading in a car is a gamble for the dealer just as it for a consumer to buy a used car. Suppose the dealer was able to sell the car and make $15,000. Would the dealer call you up and offer some of the profit to you? NO! Call you local DMV office. You need to be more proactive. You have rights but you must find out what they are. Please kee us posted. Keep the morallity arguments out of it, the law is the law, find out what the law is.